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[flies]

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20141014/log.5075b25251c30da02a09b898.1413304268129.txt

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Embargo, Pawn, Scrying Pool, Lookout, Workshop, Bandit Camp, Council Room, Market, Royal Seal, Peddler
I'm out of practice!  I've been playing bots too much and I guess I'm not used to the pace set by actual humans.  I just got crushed by a player ostensibly 22 levels lower than me...

My opponent and I both opened lookout/potion.  first reshuffle, he got bandit camp, then eec/pot/lookout on turn 4, which means two estates (good) and potion and lookout miss the 2nd reshuffle.  I got pawn/scryping pool turns 3/4 with nothing missing the reshuffle.  I'm thinking, market has to be a better first-five than BC with peddler on the board, but then he gets a council room and it never misses his bandit camps, despite his weak trashing and 1-2 bandit camps.  Now, council room is good here since i'm overdrawing my deck, but he totally crushed me, getting 4 provinces T12 (!) primarily fueled by bandit camps and 7 markets (why so many markets?).  So where did I go wrong?

T6 i make a questionable play.  My hand was ecc+lookout+pawn.  I play the lookout, revealing cc/SP and trashing a copper, obviously.  Now, if I discard the scrying pool, I can get up to $4 and grab a peddler.  If I discard a copper and pick up the scrying pool, the rest of my deck is 6 coppers, 2 estates, and one scrying pool, so the likelihood is that I draw a copper and end up with $4 anyway but now three of my actions have missed the shuffle (along with ecc).  I opt for leaving the SP on top and getting a second lookout.  Should I have gotten a peddler here?

Did I blunder strategically?  I mean, by T13 I had $19+P to spend and a very reliable deck, but my opponent had just gotten 4 provinces on his T12.  I mean, it seems like I over-trashed and neglected my economy early, but aside from T6 I'm not sure that I made any really poor plays...  Was he just lucky?

Any help would be appreciated.

[TrojH]

*puts on expert's hat*

Scrying Pool doesn't look so good here. Lookout is a weak trasher, and the only village available is Bandit Camp, which will put more treasure into your deck. So you won't be able to do the classic "draw whole deck with Scrying Pool" strategy.

The key cards are Bandit Camp, Council Room, Market, and Peddler. Build up an engine with those. To maximize your chances of getting a cost 5 card on the second pass through the deck, open Silver/Silver.

*takes off expert's hat*

Honestly,  I have no clue what to do. I would've opened Lookout/Potion, just like you did. So that's probably the wrong move. 

[Eevee]

Scrying pool is mandatory here. If your opponent doesn't go for it, you can lock him out completely by getting an embargo and placing it on bandit camps, although pawn is excellent here so the opportunity cost is kind of high.

Lookout is a fine trasher. You could remove one of peddler/market/pawn, and this would still be a SP board.

[eHalcyon]

Scrying pool is mandatory here. If your opponent doesn't go for it, you can lock him out completely by getting an embargo and placing it on bandit camps, although pawn is excellent here so the opportunity cost is kind of high.

Lookout is a fine trasher. You could remove one of peddler/market/pawn, and this would still be a SP board.

Isn't it dangerous to pick up a Potion when the other player could Embargo SP?

[Davio]

Scrying pool is mandatory here. If your opponent doesn't go for it, you can lock him out completely by getting an embargo and placing it on bandit camps, although pawn is excellent here so the opportunity cost is kind of high.

Lookout is a fine trasher. You could remove one of peddler/market/pawn, and this would still be a SP board.

Isn't it dangerous to pick up a Potion when the other player could Embargo SP?

Well, potentially, but that's not really a reason to give up going for SP's from the get go. Most likely both players go for SP and neither is interested in Embargoing SPs. This is most definitely a SP board, sooo many good cards for it.

With Pawn as the ultimate lowcost target to draw more cards and get those extra buys, it's easy to ramp up a good SP deck. Maybe 2 Pawns > 1 Market here? The trick is to get Pawns, SPs and 0-cost Peddlers and you should be blazing in no time.

I think Lookout is okay, maybe Workshop is viable to quickly hammer those Pawns and get a bunch of those 0-cost Peddlers early?

[eHalcyon]

Scrying pool is mandatory here. If your opponent doesn't go for it, you can lock him out completely by getting an embargo and placing it on bandit camps, although pawn is excellent here so the opportunity cost is kind of high.

Lookout is a fine trasher. You could remove one of peddler/market/pawn, and this would still be a SP board.

Isn't it dangerous to pick up a Potion when the other player could Embargo SP?

Well, potentially, but that's not really a reason to give up going for SP's from the get go. Most likely both players go for SP and neither is interested in Embargoing SPs. This is most definitely a SP board, sooo many good cards for it.

With Pawn as the ultimate lowcost target to draw more cards and get those extra buys, it's easy to ramp up a good SP deck. Maybe 2 Pawns > 1 Market here? The trick is to get Pawns, SPs and 0-cost Peddlers and you should be blazing in no time.

I think Lookout is okay, maybe Workshop is viable to quickly hammer those Pawns and get a bunch of those 0-cost Peddlers early?

Well, suppose you are first player and you open with Potion.  Now I know you plan to go SP while I am uncommitted.  I could try to follow despite being at a disadvantage (second player), or I could get Embargo (maybe more than one) and go a different route.

My question is that, as the first player, do you give up on SP then and accept the dead Potion in your deck, or do you pursue it despite incoming Curses?  If one Embargo isn't enough to deter, is two?  And if you could be deterred, would it be better to have avoided a Potion open to begin with?

Lookout is available to help trash Curses, but it's not the most amazing trasher.

[Davio]

With 1 Embargo, I would likely still pursue SPs. With two, hmm, I don't know, but at that point you likely have 3 SPs and can switch to Pawns and Peddlers to make every SP draw as much as possible.

[eHalcyon]

With 1 Embargo, I would likely still pursue SPs. With two, hmm, I don't know, but at that point you likely have 3 SPs and can switch to Pawns and Peddlers to make every SP draw as much as possible.

I think there's a good chance of double-embargoing before you even get the second SP.  Maybe even open Embargo/Embargo as p2 if p1 has already tipped his hand by opening Potion.  But I have no idea if a double Embargo open would hurt more than having a somewhat dead Potion.

[Davio]

With 1 Embargo, I would likely still pursue SPs. With two, hmm, I don't know, but at that point you likely have 3 SPs and can switch to Pawns and Peddlers to make every SP draw as much as possible.

I think there's a good chance of double-embargoing before you even get the second SP.  Maybe even open Embargo/Embargo as p2 if p1 has already tipped his hand by opening Potion.  But I have no idea if a double Embargo open would hurt more than having a somewhat dead Potion.

Probably the double Embargo doesn't hurt much if you can use them to reach $5 to get a couple Bandit Camps. In fact, these one-time Silvers might be better than actual Silvers.

[silverspawn]

embargo vs scrying pool is generally a tricky decision. My usual plan is to just go scrying pool anyway if there is trashing. but bandit camp/council room is really good. I think if you draw your embargos on turn 3 and 4, you're pretty far ahead.

[soulnet]

As 2nd player I would surely open double Embargo against a Potion opening. Even if I don't get to double-Embargo the SPs on the first shuffle, I will eventually get there, and the non-SP engine is not bad. Lookout is a very bad trasher for SP (wich will likely put the bad cards in hand), and its good against SP, so that's a plus too.

Anyone out there to try this one? I am open to go in either direction for research purposes.

[flies]

i'd be free later on, like in 4-5 hours?

[soulnet]

i'd be free later on, like in 4-5 hours?

I think I can make it, if its not too late here. Post here or PM me and I will tell you if I am free.

[dondon151]

I don't think Lookout is a bad trasher for SP if you track your deck, especially if you're still in the phase where you discard cards revealed by SP.

There's the possibility of getting a second Lookout to deal with Curses. The SP player may also be able to navigate with some Embargos of his own. If the Bandit Camp player gets 2 Embargos, I think that the second Embargo may be better placed on Peddlers rather than doubling up on SPs.

[soulnet]

There's the possibility of getting a second Lookout to deal with Curses. The SP player may also be able to navigate with some Embargos of his own. If the Bandit Camp player gets 2 Embargos, I think that the second Embargo may be better placed on Peddlers rather than doubling up on SPs.

The Embargo battle is a reasonable possibility. Placing the 2nd Embargo on Peddlers, not so much, especially because you want free Peddlers too. Curses will likely run out anyway, and I think the SP player will get more Curses faster if they are placed on SPs.

[eHalcyon]

There's the possibility of getting a second Lookout to deal with Curses. The SP player may also be able to navigate with some Embargos of his own. If the Bandit Camp player gets 2 Embargos, I think that the second Embargo may be better placed on Peddlers rather than doubling up on SPs.

The Embargo battle is a reasonable possibility. Placing the 2nd Embargo on Peddlers, not so much, especially because you want free Peddlers too. Curses will likely run out anyway, and I think the SP player will get more Curses faster if they are placed on SPs.

Second Embargo on Peddler (or maybe even Pawn) might be reasonable if the SP player got lucky and got a few SP already, but hasn't really hit the cheap actions yet.

[soulnet]

Second Embargo on Peddler (or maybe even Pawn) might be reasonable if the SP player got lucky and got a few SP already, but hasn't really hit the cheap actions yet.

I won't say there isn't a scenario in which you would do that, but with 2 decent options, the SP player can just avoid Peddler/Pawn until being developed enough. The point of Embargo is to hinder their development to make it longer, not to hinder their long-term deck, which is impossible to do because they will eventually trash most of the junk and draw the deck anyway.

[dondon151]

Pawn is way worse than Peddler in an SP deck, though. And you can't just "avoid Peddler/Pawn until being developed enough" when you need those plus some Markets to develop the deck.

[flies]

(maybe like 4 more hours later? sry)

[soulnet]

Pawn is way worse than Peddler in an SP deck, though. And you can't just "avoid Peddler/Pawn until being developed enough" when you need those plus some Markets to develop the deck.

You can (and probably should) avoid one of them and focus on the other (plus Markets) for quite a while. If you are planning on three Embargoes, well, that's a different story, but I don't think you can do it fast enough for it to matter much.

(maybe like 4 more hours later? sry)

That's too late for me, but some other time...