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Author Topic: Deciding when to green  (Read 30678 times)

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Count Grishnakh

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2014, 12:39:54 am »
0

You've spent an inordinate amount of time in this thread putting people down and propping yourself up, criticizing others' advice without offering any of your own, and playing the part of the victim when others criticize you in turn.  You claim you have no time to give any advice, but you've spent plenty of time here arguing semantics and throwing insults.  When you mentioned that players should spend time tracking variables and parameters other than the turn number, surely you could have given a few examples. 

I'm going to point this out again, since you blithely ignored it the first time:

I'd also like to point out something you said:

Your advice may be a decent starting point for a player starting out

Which is exactly what it was meant to be.

And as for this:

If anyone is genuinely interested I will be happy to write an article detailing my ideas but you´re a fool if you think I am wrong for not writing an essay about my ideas to such a hostile, antagonistic bunch who hasn´t even addressed the arguments that I have made, why would I waste time elaborating?

The thread was the height of civility until you came in.  A couple of people objected to your hostility and antagonism, to which you took even greater offense.  And then it snowballed from there.

I haven't seen any arguments you brought up that haven't been thoroughly addressed.  If something has been missed, feel free to bring it back up.

I'll add that I find it amusingly ironic that you were so outraged at Gherald's advice (which you admitted was a fine starting point for a beginner but useless for advanced players, as if nobody knew that already) and then later recommended playing against bots, which is an activity that is also a fine starting point for beginners and also useless for advanced players trying to improve their game.


Oh, new posts...

Quote
The ¨alternatives¨ are myriad, and this advise is awful even for a beginner because a beginner would be better served paying attention to OTHER VARIABLES and measuring  parameters other than turn number!!
If the beginner is already able to pay attention to other variables, they are not a beginner

What? So basically your advice is for someone who has played less than 5 games then? Or someone who is mentally challenged? Because I was able to pay close attention to more important parameters of each game and each turn within my first 15 games or so, and time my greening accordingly.

Sure I had not mastered my technique, but I at least was paying attention and learning accordingly

so basically your advice would work for someone with less than 15 games? In that case why not just let them play 15 games and get an intuitive feel for the game? Why try to have a schedule for buying provinces? Its ludicrous

Again, what parameters?  How do they affect your timing?  You're not offering anything of value here.  If you are such a pro, it should be easy to offer the answers to these questions.

Oh, we're not a hostile, antagonistic bunch. f.ds is the nicest forum that I frequent. Maybe you're seeing your reflection off the lens with which you're scrutinizing us.

I am not antagonistic or mean spirited I simply enjoy speaking my mind and I lack patience for expressing myself diplomatically, for that, I apologize.

A nice bunch? Perhaps but I expected more logic from the likes of you and less impudence. I think you guys have an intense hive mind tribal mentality going on and you guys are backing up one of your own

loyalty to friends is admirable, but sloppy thinking, warped logic, advocating awful advice, not so much

Perhaps you should give others the same benefit of the doubt then.

I'm seen more logic and rationality from the "hive mind" than from you so far.  Impudence?  That implies that you are some sort of authority figure.  Sorry, you aren't.  If you want respect, you shouldn't jump into a thread just to insult people and then proclaim yourself the "Bruce Lee" of anything at all.  So far, people have been far more respectful to you than you have been to others.

And to be clear, I'm not defending Gherald here out of any sort of loyalty.  I've had relatively unfriendly debates with him in this forum, and I can't recall being in agreement with him before.  But he at least remained civil in all discussion.  Nobody is advocating awful advice here.  Again, you said it yourself -- it's a decent starting point for a beginner.  His advice was OK given the context.

I give up on this forum holy shit you guys are fucking annoying

every time I post my opinion this happens

first a bunch of you attack me, you make bogus personal attacks or you make up false criticisms such as ¨¨you havent offered your own advice¨¨

I defend against the same criticism multiple times, yet imps like you keep popping out of the word work repeating the very criticisms that I have already refuted

Then ppl say ¨well youre putting people down blah blah blah¨

Then people start picking apart everything I say intentionally miscontruing my words until my words have been interpreted in ways that are absurd

then I have to grudgingly discuss semantics because of said misconstrucing of my words until they have created an absurd caricature of my argument

then I have an asshole like you blame me for discussing semantics

I dont want to discuss semantics you dumb fuck I am not the one who took the debate in this direction, it was the petty denizens of this board

holy fuck are you guys ever annoying

Nobody is listening to what im saying people are just straw manning and repeating the same criticism over and over

you guys arent listening to what im saying so far, and what you are paying attention to is petty details, what you are paying attention to, you are intentionally straw manning

then you criticise me for ¨¨not offering anything of value¨¨ lets have a reasonable discussion about this topic, actually listen to me and stop criticising my character or strawmanning me and I will give you more details

wow you treat me like shit then wonder why I am not elaborating on my points¨?? I wonder why I am not in the mood to explain my ideas!!

Because this awful fucking community shits on anyone who dares to express ideas that go against the grain with harsh honesty
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 12:44:18 am by Count Grishnakh »
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silverspawn

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2014, 12:42:41 am »
+11

Count Grishnakh and I have played 4 games against each other, unrated, full random (though I did randomize a couple of times to have complex boards, but didn't spend more than few seconds looking at them). the logs to the games can be found here, here, here, and here.

Count Grishnakh

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2014, 12:47:09 am »
0

Count Grishnakh and I have played 4 games against each other, unrated, full random (though I did randomize a couple of times to have complex boards, but didn't spend more than few seconds looking at them). the logs to the games can be found here, here, here, and here.


Yeah now we have this snitch showing our logs so everyone can attack me for how I play rather than focus on the point, this forum is fucking awful, fuck you all

Ive never been able to make a single post here without being attacked by hordes of people

Sure, I take some responsibility for my attitude and i express myself in a harsh way sometime, but you all treat me like shit which doesnt help my attitude any

im actually a nice person always kind to others but fuck you all,
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2014, 12:50:48 am »
+1

(Disclaimer: I haven't read the last ~10 or so posts in this thread (except this one)).

I am making general statements about my alternative advice, and although I am not going into detail, you can imagine what I mean when I say its better to focus on other variables, assuming you understand the word and you are an astute and seasoned player of DOMINION

Now listen here young man, there is nothing logical about your statement that I need to provide good advice to prove the validity of my critique



The validity of a critique does not rest on offering a better alternative! Why don´t you understand that?


 I was generous to even give you an inculcation of what my alternative would be

I'm not saying you're morally obligated to back up your post with evidence or anything, I'm just saying, I would be much more inclined to agree with you if you did.  You made a claim, framed it in a way that seemed insulting to another user, and then refused to back up the claim with argumentation.  Instead of providing arguments regarding the claim, you got wrapped up in these arguments about the other users here.  I'm saying, ignore those arguments; the best way to prove your case is to argue for it, not to attack others who argue against it.

Your attitude of coming in, pointing out that these rules are not applicable at high levels of play (a trivially obvious claim), and then challenging Gherald to a Dominion match, sounds to me like you weren't hoping to start a respectful discussion about how to know when to green, but that you just came in here wanting to prove that you're the best at Dominion; it's not surprising that several strong players have taken offense to that attitude, because they most likely are better than you.

If anyone is genuinely interested I will be happy to write an article detailing my ideas but you´re a fool if you think I am wrong for not writing an essay about my ideas to such a hostile, antagonistic bunch who hasn´t even addressed the arguments that I have made, why would I waste time elaborating?

Well here I am trying to ask you to do that.  I'm not asking you to write a giant article, just provide what you think would be better advice than Gherald's.  I tried to ask you to do this in my last post, but instead your response was just, "I'm not going to do that, because no one will listen to me".
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Count Grishnakh

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #54 on: September 28, 2014, 12:57:51 am »
0




[/quote]

I'm not saying you're morally obligated to back up your post with evidence or anything, I'm just saying, I would be much more inclined to agree with you if you did.  You made a claim, framed it in a way that seemed insulting to another user, and then refused to back up the claim with argumentation.  Instead of providing arguments regarding the claim, you got wrapped up in these arguments about the other users here.  I'm saying, ignore those arguments; the best way to prove your case is to argue for it, not to attack others who argue against it.

Your attitude of coming in, pointing out that these rules are not applicable at high levels of play (a trivially obvious claim), and then challenging Gherald to a Dominion match, sounds to me like you weren't hoping to start a respectful discussion about how to know when to green, but that you just came in here wanting to prove that you're the best at Dominion; it's not surprising that several strong players have taken offense to that attitude, because they most likely are better than you.

If anyone is genuinely interested I will be happy to write an article detailing my ideas but you´re a fool if you think I am wrong for not writing an essay about my ideas to such a hostile, antagonistic bunch who hasn´t even addressed the arguments that I have made, why would I waste time elaborating?

Well here I am trying to ask you to do that.  I'm not asking you to write a giant article, just provide what you think would be better advice than Gherald's.  I tried to ask you to do this in my last post, but instead your response was just, "I'm not going to do that, because no one will listen to me".
[/quote]




This board is full of assholes who are simultaneously shitting on everything I say, not listening to a god damn word, distoring what I say, then they have the nerve to scold me for not elaborating on my ideas

I know I have really bad decorum on this board but I get treated like shit by everyone on this board so I might as well be an asshole its me against like 8 other people

I even tried to make constructive posts elsewhere in the forum a while back and I couldnt make any claim without 4 or 5 people picking apart what I said because I was making an oversimplification because I could not be bothered to write a longer post that would be more accurately worded

Then I make one critique and everyone jumps on me for that

Although it was a ¨¨trivially honest claim¨ that wasnt the main point, the main point is that such advise is not practical, even for an absolute beginner.
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Count Grishnakh

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2014, 01:01:34 am »
0

Im not going to post in this forum anymore I can´t stand the lot of you go ahead and resume your circle jerk

you know a bluntly stated unpopular opinion is more valuable then a bunch of fucking conformists circle jerking together

A person like me would be great for this forum I could stir up a lot of discussion but its too bad that there are so many who completely kill my passion for discussing this game with their constant barrage of personal attacks and endless diversions and hair splitting and straw manning

fuck ive never been scolded so incessantly in my life, not even when I was a child, my god.

fuck you all, im done
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silverspawn

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2014, 01:03:34 am »
+1

I love this forum. Best com ever <3 <3

jsh357

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2014, 01:06:13 am »
0


A person like me would be great for this forum

The burden of proof is on you, sir.  Was a fun thread; good day.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2014, 01:07:05 am »
+2

the main point is that such advise is not practical, even for an absolute beginner.

It's not obvious to me that this is the case, so I would like to hear you back up that claim with evidence.  That's what people do on forums, they make arguments.  You seem to take so much offense to my asking you to back up your claim.  I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm trying to get you to make a case.


I don't know what your other experiences on f.ds were like, so I'm sorry if they were bad; people here are generally nice and respectful as long as you're nice and respectful to them.  But in this case, I think you really should have expected the response you got.  You told a user that his advice was horrible, with an attitude that you could do much better, but then you never backed it up with evidence or arguments.  All I'm asking you to do is follow up on your claim with argumentation.
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Awaclus

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2014, 01:12:08 am »
+1

the main point is that such advise is not practical, even for an absolute beginner.

It's not obvious to me that this is the case, so I would like to hear you back up that claim with evidence.  That's what people do on forums, they make arguments.  You seem to take so much offense to my asking you to back up your claim.  I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm trying to get you to make a case.


I don't know what your other experiences on f.ds were like, so I'm sorry if they were bad; people here are generally nice and respectful as long as you're nice and respectful to them.  But in this case, I think you really should have expected the response you got.  You told a user that his advice was horrible, with an attitude that you could do much better, but then you never backed it up with evidence or arguments.  All I'm asking you to do is follow up on your claim with argumentation.
His previous experiences were actually coincidentally linked on the page 1 of this thread.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 01:13:17 am by Awaclus »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2014, 01:23:17 am »
0

Nobody attacked you at first, let a lot "a bunch".  It was two people and they merely disagreed with you, respectfully, and you got into a big huff about it.  People asked you to elaborate and you refused.  First, you said you had no time.  Now, you say that people are personally attacking you or misconstruing your words so you don't want to elaborate.  I'm starting to think you don't actually have any advice at all.

Nobody is strawmanning.  We're responding directly to your written statements.  If I have misconstrued anything, feel free to point it out and correct my misunderstanding. 

You are the only one here using profanity, calling people idiots and snitches.  And on that, really?  You issued the first challenge and it was public.  Nobody is going through those games to nitpick.  Please calm down.

We've been listening for what you have to say this whole time.  You're just not saying anything.  scott_pilgrim just asked you very kindly to give your thoughts on when to green but you still refuse to do so.  I'll second his request.  I would love to hear your thoughts.  I mean this sincerely, without mockery or sarcasm.  If you had given a few suggestions from the start, people would be discussing that instead.




But at this point, I have to wonder if we've just been successfully trolled.  ???
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 01:24:54 am by eHalcyon »
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Titandrake

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2014, 01:47:38 am »
+5

Guys help.

I'm out of popcorn what do I do. Where's the closest internet store? Is it reddit?

I've almost never seen an internet argument resolve itself peacefully. There's something about the medium that makes people respond to criticism with more criticism until you get to a positive feedback loop of disappointment. It's why I like this forum so much - generally, people have enough respect and are chill enough to make everything resolve itself. Of course, as this has just showed, generally != all the time. (And if you had argued why Gherald's general rules weren't good baselines, none of this would have happened. As it so happens I don't really like the turn metric because the shuffle metric is more important and gets you thinking correctly about how/when new cards get into your deck.)

Unpopular beliefs need strong arguments to matter - your arguments aren't.
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silverspawn

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2014, 01:52:12 am »
0

Quote
But at this point, I have to wonder if we've just been successfully trolled.  ???
I don't think so (he is probably going to get banned for his insults, so it should be fine if we talk about him). He legitimately tried to win the games we played, and he was telling the truth when he said that he is better than his ranking suggests. A generous guess would be lvl 25 skill wise.

ErrinF was serious, and I think this guy was very reasonable compared to him, so my guess is that he was serious too.

Aidan Millow

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2014, 05:25:58 am »
+1

I've almost never seen an internet argument resolve itself peacefully. There's something about the medium that makes people respond to criticism with more criticism until you get to a positive feedback loop of disappointment.

I actually find this phenomenon quite interesting so here's more of a response than you were probably expecting:
Some premises (because I like premises).
  • People instinctively want to win arguments, even if they're wrong.
  • In person and in most other media people often suppress this desire due to social conditioning (and practical concerns such as time sometimes come into play).
  • Due to being semi-anonymous on the internet people are less inhibited.
Due to point 3, point 2 doesn't stop people so when one person makes a statement and then sees a reply that does anything but admit defeat they starts preparing a response. If you actually want to stop you have to take a step back and say to yourself "I don't want to be doing this any more." Then to assuage your instincts you often have to make a statement of leaving the discussion.
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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2014, 08:49:09 am »
+2

fuck ive never been scolded so incessantly in my life, not even when I was a child, my god.

Well, then I am glad that we, as the f.ds community, have been able to expand your horizons into the world of criticism and assist you in learning how to demurely accept constructive criticism without becoming overly enraged and hostile.  It is a useful skill to learn from criticism.

Guys help.

I'm out of popcorn what do I do. Where's the closest internet store? Is it reddit?

yes
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GeoLib

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2014, 10:58:56 am »
0

I've almost never seen an internet argument resolve itself peacefully. There's something about the medium that makes people respond to criticism with more criticism until you get to a positive feedback loop of disappointment.

I actually find this phenomenon quite interesting so here's more of a response than you were probably expecting:
Some premises (because I like premises).
  • People instinctively want to win arguments, even if they're wrong.
  • In person and in most other media people often suppress this desire due to social conditioning (and practical concerns such as time sometimes come into play).
  • Due to being semi-anonymous on the internet people are less inhibited.
Due to point 3, point 2 doesn't stop people so when one person makes a statement and then sees a reply that does anything but admit defeat they starts preparing a response. If you actually want to stop you have to take a step back and say to yourself "I don't want to be doing this any more." Then to assuage your instincts you often have to make a statement of leaving the discussion.

Yeah. The stepping back thing for me was definitely caused by the fact that I realized I had way more important things to do and "the Count" had slipped beyond the point where I cared about his opinions.

I think another important factor that you didn't state, is that people are much more likely to think the worst of any textual communication. Without the influencing factor of tone, that part is filled in by the reader's own head. Apparently in his head we're a "hostile" "antagonistic" "impudent" "rabble" of "imps" "popping out of the word work" while he is the "Bruce Lee of DOMINION." Given that context, it's pretty understandable that he took offense to us questioning his almighty authority.

Elanchana: I'm really sorry that this was one of your first introductions to this forum. Hopefully you stopped reading this thread a while ago, but I promise that this doesn't happen very frequently. In general on this forum I have seen some of the best internet decorum ever and found people genuinely make up and see reason after having been on the precipice of a flame war.

Silverspawn, did you already report his posts to theory? I'm not actually sure that banning him is necessary, though I certainly wouldn't argue strongly against it.
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silverspawn

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2014, 11:12:37 am »
0

Quote
Silverspawn, did you already report his posts to theory? I'm not actually sure that banning him is necessary, though I certainly wouldn't argue strongly against it.

no, I don't mind him here. I just used it as a justification to talk about him like that.

Count Grishnakh

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2014, 11:33:00 am »
0

Guys help.

I'm out of popcorn what do I do. Where's the closest internet store? Is it reddit?

I've almost never seen an internet argument resolve itself peacefully. There's something about the medium that makes people respond to criticism with more criticism until you get to a positive feedback loop of disappointment. It's why I like this forum so much - generally, people have enough respect and are chill enough to make everything resolve itself. Of course, as this has just showed, generally != all the time. (And if you had argued why Gherald's general rules weren't good baselines, none of this would have happened. As it so happens I don't really like the turn metric because the shuffle metric is more important and gets you thinking correctly about how/when new cards get into your deck.)

Unpopular beliefs need strong arguments to matter - your arguments aren't.

what? I said that there are so many other variables that are more relevant that the new player would be better served paying attention to those, rather than turn order

I questioned the notion of the ¨typical province game¨ How many games are truly ¨typical¨ in that sense? Maybe 1 in 10?

I argued that this counting turns approach would be no more successful than ¨going by ones gut¨ as far as greening goes

You said yourself that shuffle mechanic is more relevant, thats just one of many factors that are far more relevant to timing one´s VP buys

Just because I haven´t elaborated on my argument does not mean its weak. You are all experienced players, you should understand what I am referring to when I refer to other variables

for instance another variable  the presence of extra buys

a new player would be much better served by a method of VP purchase that takes into account the absence or presence of buys

such emphasis would be much more useful for a beginner than number of turns
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Count Grishnakh

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2014, 11:40:50 am »
0

Nobody attacked you at first, let a lot "a bunch".  It was two people and they merely disagreed with you, respectfully, and you got into a big huff about it.  People asked you to elaborate and you refused.  First, you said you had no time.  Now, you say that people are personally attacking you or misconstruing your words so you don't want to elaborate.  I'm starting to think you don't actually have any advice at all.

Nobody is strawmanning.  We're responding directly to your written statements.  If I have misconstrued anything, feel free to point it out and correct my misunderstanding. 

You are the only one here using profanity, calling people idiots and snitches.  And on that, really?  You issued the first challenge and it was public.  Nobody is going through those games to nitpick.  Please calm down.

We've been listening for what you have to say this whole time.  You're just not saying anything.  scott_pilgrim just asked you very kindly to give your thoughts on when to green but you still refuse to do so.  I'll second his request.  I would love to hear your thoughts.  I mean this sincerely, without mockery or sarcasm.  If you had given a few suggestions from the start, people would be discussing that instead.




But at this point, I have to wonder if we've just been successfully trolled.  ???

Listen, this is the first post of yours I like

Now I have apologized many times for my way of speaking, and I know I have excessive pride, I can´t help myself some times, and nobody should take my flamboyant way of speaking to heart

my wanton issuing of challenges to others when they disagree with me is more out of enthusiasm for the game than anything else, and also a way of showing that I am willing to back up what I say and put myself on the line

I understand my weaknesses as a forum citizen, but I ask you all to consider yours as well... The constant use of ¨we¨ and ¨us¨ betrays the fact that you are a tight knit group, thats fine.. but becareful not to barrage anyone with an unpopular opinion with unfair criticism...


I don´t care if you disagree but a lot of criticisms of me in this thread were not based on logical principles..

And above all, until now nobody has expressed interest in what I actually have to say

I thought you all could imagine what I was alluding to in my sketch of my alternative style of learning to time VP buys.. but maybe you can not

I will write a short essay on this topic and reveal it to you all when it is finished

I apologize for the profanity but I really cant stand 8 different people attacking me in unfair and illogical ways all at once, it is agonizing and exhausting!

good day
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theory

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2014, 11:48:23 am »
+17

Thread locked.  Count Grishnakh banned.     
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