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Author Topic: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players  (Read 7088 times)

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liopoil

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Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« on: September 07, 2014, 01:54:00 pm »
+5

Note: this isn't so much a variant as it is a thought experiment. The point is largely to illustrate how horrible 4-player is. For me, this variant would almost always be less fun than normal Dominion.

4 player Dominion is essentially two-player dominion with the following changes:

-victory card piles have 6 copies instead of 8
-kingdom card piles have 5 copies instead of 10
-the curse pile has 15 cards instead of 10
-the attack portion of attack cards are king's courted

Now, the above game doesn't sound very fun, but 4-player dominion is actually even worse. It also has the additional changes from the above variant that are harder to emulate with just 2 players:

-discard down to X attack cards (and attack cards in general) are played more reliably instead of 3 times one turn and none the others
-Much less endgame control
-Kingmaking
-3 players take their turns in between each of your turns instead of just 1
-Pile splits can be more lopsided
-There are 3 different decks you are playing, which matters for things like tribute, and also makes things harder to keep track of.
-Only 1/4 chance of winning as opposed to 1/2 chance!

There are plenty of other card-specific edge cases (e.g., masquerade).

Pretty much everyone on this forum prefers 2 player over 4 player anyway, but this really showed at least to me, as someone who hasn't played much 4-player, just how bad (relative to 2-player) 4-player is.

What purpose could this variant have? The only use I can think of is to use it as a way to practice for a 4-player game with only 2 players, for an IRL tournament or something. I can also imagine it being more fun on some big money boards.

Unrelated idea I just came up with, which could actually be fun. Play with normal 4-player rules, but with only two players. Each player controls two decks and can see the hands of both. Seating is such that play alternates between players. At the end of the game the player who controls the deck with the lowest score loses. Alternatively you could just add the VP totals.
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Aidan Millow

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2014, 03:52:22 pm »
+1

You're kind of missing the point here imo. You shouldn't play 4p dominion as if it's 2p. It's more relaxed and social and less competitive. I mostly play 2p online and 4p in real life and which one I enjoy more depends on my mood. You might well not enjoy 4p anyway but you definitely won't if you try to play it like 2p.
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silverspawn

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2014, 03:59:12 pm »
+3

You're kind of missing the point here imo. You shouldn't play 4p dominion as if it's 2p. It's more relaxed and social and less competitive. I mostly play 2p online and 4p in real life and which one I enjoy more depends on my mood. You might well not enjoy 4p anyway but you definitely won't if you try to play it like 2p.

no, 4p is just bad. if you're playing it casually, you may not notice that it's bad and enjoy it, but it's still bad.

liopoil

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2014, 04:04:42 pm »
0

You're kind of missing the point here imo. You shouldn't play 4p dominion as if it's 2p. It's more relaxed and social and less competitive. I mostly play 2p online and 4p in real life and which one I enjoy more depends on my mood. You might well not enjoy 4p anyway but you definitely won't if you try to play it like 2p.
I was writing a post explaining why I find 4p less fun because of how many of the great things about 2p it lacks... but then silverspawn pretty much said it for me. You have to take a different approach to playing 4-player dominion that just isn't as fun.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2014, 04:06:42 pm »
0

4 player Dominion is essentially two-player dominion with the following changes:

-victory card piles have 6 copies instead of 8
-kingdom card piles have 5 copies instead of 10
-the curse pile has 15 cards instead of 10
-the attack portion of attack cards are king's courted

Are you talking about how it feels?  If you are just listing cards per player, the math doesn't check out here.
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liopoil

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2014, 04:12:51 pm »
0

4 player Dominion is essentially two-player dominion with the following changes:

-victory card piles have 6 copies instead of 8
-kingdom card piles have 5 copies instead of 10
-the curse pile has 15 cards instead of 10
-the attack portion of attack cards are king's courted

Are you talking about how it feels?  If you are just listing cards per player, the math doesn't check out here.
I think this is cards per player... what's wrong about the math? In 4P there are 3 victory cards per player, in 2 player that is 6. In 4P there are 2.5 kingdom cards per player, in 2 player that is 5. In 4p there are 7.5 curses per players, in 2p that is 15. In 4p you get attacked 3 times as much as in 2p, so king's court the attack parts.

EDIT: the idea is that playing a variant with 2 players with the quoted changes would be like playing 4 player... except for the not-so-edgy-cases outlined later in the post. Hopefully that was clear.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 04:15:26 pm by liopoil »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2014, 04:23:56 pm »
0

4 player Dominion is essentially two-player dominion with the following changes:

-victory card piles have 6 copies instead of 8
-kingdom card piles have 5 copies instead of 10
-the curse pile has 15 cards instead of 10
-the attack portion of attack cards are king's courted

Are you talking about how it feels?  If you are just listing cards per player, the math doesn't check out here.
I think this is cards per player... what's wrong about the math? In 4P there are 3 victory cards per player, in 2 player that is 6. In 4P there are 2.5 kingdom cards per player, in 2 player that is 5. In 4p there are 7.5 curses per players, in 2p that is 15. In 4p you get attacked 3 times as much as in 2p, so king's court the attack parts.

EDIT: the idea is that playing a variant with 2 players with the quoted changes would be like playing 4 player... except for the not-so-edgy-cases outlined later in the post. Hopefully that was clear.

Oh, I see what you're getting at now.  OK then. :P
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Holger

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2014, 04:47:27 pm »
0

4 player Dominion is essentially two-player dominion with the following changes:

-victory card piles have 6 copies instead of 8
-kingdom card piles have 5 copies instead of 10
-the curse pile has 15 cards instead of 10
-the attack portion of attack cards are king's courted

Are you talking about how it feels?  If you are just listing cards per player, the math doesn't check out here.
I think this is cards per player... what's wrong about the math? In 4P there are 3 victory cards per player, in 2 player that is 6. In 4P there are 2.5 kingdom cards per player, in 2 player that is 5. In 4p there are 7.5 curses per players, in 2p that is 15. In 4p you get attacked 3 times as much as in 2p, so king's court the attack parts.

Attacks are bad in 4p, but not that bad. From the attacker's POV, there's no king's courting at all for most attacks (only Thief and other "stealers" scale with number of opponents). From the victim's POV, most attacks become weaker when played several times, and many attacks don't stack at all. E.g. it doesn't matter whether you're militia'ed once or thrice per turn. Because of this, it makes less sense to even buy the attack if others have already done it - a Militia played after your right opponent's Militia is just an expensive terminal Silver w.r.t. all other opponents. Junkers do stack, but since there's always only enough curses for ten cursing attacks, you'll get curses three times as fast, but not three times as many in the end.
On the other hand, more frequent attacks strengthen otherwise weakish Reaction cards like Moat or Trader, which is a plus for multiplayer IMO; as are the strengthened Thief and Pirate Ship and the weakened FG.

Your VP/kingdom card pile math is correct if all players go for the same strategy (or two each go for the same strategy instead of one each), but it can make sense to go for a different strategy just because the other piles are more contested.
That said, I also (mildly) dislike the relatively smaller piles; but IRL, you can just use 16 basic VP cards each in 4p to partially "fix" this. I think Donald said that he had seriously considered using 16 Provinces for 4 players, it certainly won't break anything, just prolong the game a bit.
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Aidan Millow

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2014, 04:49:17 pm »
0

You're kind of missing the point here imo. You shouldn't play 4p dominion as if it's 2p. It's more relaxed and social and less competitive. I mostly play 2p online and 4p in real life and which one I enjoy more depends on my mood. You might well not enjoy 4p anyway but you definitely won't if you try to play it like 2p.

no, 4p is just bad. if you're playing it casually, you may not notice that it's bad and enjoy it, but it's still bad.

I agree that it's bad if you're looking for the same things as a 2p game. 4p dominion actually offers more as a sort of social lubricant which is why I say that it's missing the point to theory craft why it's worse than 2p.
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liopoil

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2014, 05:00:47 pm »
0

--edge cases--
these are more or less covered in
Now, the above game doesn't sound very fun, but 4-player dominion is actually even worse. It also has the additional changes from the above variant that are harder to emulate with just 2 players:

-discard down to X attack cards (and attack cards in general) are played more reliably instead of 3 times one turn and none the others
-Much less endgame control
-Kingmaking
-3 players take their turns in between each of your turns instead of just 1
-Pile splits can be more lopsided
-There are 3 different decks you are playing, which matters for things like tribute, and also makes things harder to keep track of.
-Only 1/4 chance of winning as opposed to 1/2 chance!

There are plenty of other card-specific edge cases (e.g., masquerade).
And you are right in noting that not quite all of the differences are bad things. I would totally play 4p with 16 provinces/duchies/estates, but that doesn't fix a lot of the problems. I also don't own intrigue IRL, so I can't do that.

You're kind of missing the point here imo. You shouldn't play 4p dominion as if it's 2p. It's more relaxed and social and less competitive. I mostly play 2p online and 4p in real life and which one I enjoy more depends on my mood. You might well not enjoy 4p anyway but you definitely won't if you try to play it like 2p.

no, 4p is just bad. if you're playing it casually, you may not notice that it's bad and enjoy it, but it's still bad.

I agree that it's bad if you're looking for the same things as a 2p game. 4p dominion actually offers more as a sort of social lubricant which is why I say that it's missing the point to theory craft why it's worse than 2p.
Yes, if you are playing a casual game for socializing, then 4p can easily be just as worth your time as 2p, if not more. Why? Because your too busy enjoying your time socializing to care that it is bad.
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Aidan Millow

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2014, 05:37:16 pm »
0

You're kind of missing the point here imo. You shouldn't play 4p dominion as if it's 2p. It's more relaxed and social and less competitive. I mostly play 2p online and 4p in real life and which one I enjoy more depends on my mood. You might well not enjoy 4p anyway but you definitely won't if you try to play it like 2p.

no, 4p is just bad. if you're playing it casually, you may not notice that it's bad and enjoy it, but it's still bad.

I agree that it's bad if you're looking for the same things as a 2p game. 4p dominion actually offers more as a sort of social lubricant which is why I say that it's missing the point to theory craft why it's worse than 2p.
Yes, if you are playing a casual game for socializing, then 4p can easily be just as worth your time as 2p, if not more. Why? Because your too busy enjoying your time socializing to care that it is bad.

You're missing the part where you wouldn't be enjoying your time socializing if there wasn't something like 4p dominion to semi-occupy you. You build a deck that's usually worse than one you'd build in 2p and you enjoy talking about the game and then about other stuff as opposed to sitting around feeling awkward. This is how 4p board games usually work and for this purpose 4p dominion isn't not bad whereas 2p dominion would be because it's inherently competitive.

My point is that 2p and 4p games usually offer different experiences and this thread is judging a 4p game by a 2p metric.
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silverspawn

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2014, 05:44:06 pm »
0

the socializing aspect comes from the 4 players, not from the 4player game

Zappie

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2014, 05:45:43 pm »
0

When you play a 4p game, you probably also don't use random boards. I have played quite some 4-6p games, where we always put in 2 villages piles and no harsch attacks (actually just no attacks at all). And as said the mentalitity also changes. in 2p there is 50 chance of losing - in 4p 75% of not losing!
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Aidan Millow

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2014, 05:58:11 pm »
0

the socializing aspect comes from the 4 players, not from the 4player game

I'm beginning to feel that people aren't reading much of what I write here. For people (like me) who aren't good at socialising then having a game as a starting point is almost necessary for enjoying oneself rather than sitting around being awkward and miserable.
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Awaclus

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2014, 06:09:57 pm »
0

You're kind of missing the point here imo. You shouldn't play 4p dominion as if it's 2p. It's more relaxed and social and less competitive. I mostly play 2p online and 4p in real life and which one I enjoy more depends on my mood. You might well not enjoy 4p anyway but you definitely won't if you try to play it like 2p.

no, 4p is just bad. if you're playing it casually, you may not notice that it's bad and enjoy it, but it's still bad.

I agree that it's bad if you're looking for the same things as a 2p game. 4p dominion actually offers more as a sort of social lubricant which is why I say that it's missing the point to theory craft why it's worse than 2p.
Yes, if you are playing a casual game for socializing, then 4p can easily be just as worth your time as 2p, if not more. Why? Because your too busy enjoying your time socializing to care that it is bad.

You're missing the part where you wouldn't be enjoying your time socializing if there wasn't something like 4p dominion to semi-occupy you. You build a deck that's usually worse than one you'd build in 2p and you enjoy talking about the game and then about other stuff as opposed to sitting around feeling awkward. This is how 4p board games usually work and for this purpose 4p dominion isn't not bad whereas 2p dominion would be because it's inherently competitive.

My point is that 2p and 4p games usually offer different experiences and this thread is judging a 4p game by a 2p metric.
An immersing tabletop RPG with four players leaves little room for socializing, even though they usually are very not-competitive. People start socializing when the game alone can't keep them fully entertained. A game like that can be worth playing when you want to socialize, but even if it is, it doesn't mean that it's good — it just means that it lets the players have fun regardless of the game.


I think that blending in with its surroundings is an important aspect of all pieces of art, including board games. What this means in practice is that when you design a chair, it's not enough that the chair itself looks good, but also, when you put it in an environment where people look at it, it has to fit in. And when you design a board game, it's not enough that the game itself is fun, but it also has to fit in with whatever you're doing before the game and after the game. A bland chair fits in by being simple and uninteresting, but a very awesome chair fits in by being the center of the attention and making the surroundings support it. Likewise, a bland board game fits in by making people socialize while playing, but a very awesome game fits in by making the players still analyze the game hours after it ended. Both kinds of fitting in can be pleasant to experience, but only the other will leave a lasting impression.
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Aidan Millow

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2014, 07:28:29 pm »
0

An immersing tabletop RPG with four players leaves little room for socializing, even though they usually are very not-competitive. People start socializing when the game alone can't keep them fully entertained. A game like that can be worth playing when you want to socialize, but even if it is, it doesn't mean that it's good — it just means that it lets the players have fun regardless of the game.


I think that blending in with its surroundings is an important aspect of all pieces of art, including board games. What this means in practice is that when you design a chair, it's not enough that the chair itself looks good, but also, when you put it in an environment where people look at it, it has to fit in. And when you design a board game, it's not enough that the game itself is fun, but it also has to fit in with whatever you're doing before the game and after the game. A bland chair fits in by being simple and uninteresting, but a very awesome chair fits in by being the center of the attention and making the surroundings support it. Likewise, a bland board game fits in by making people socialize while playing, but a very awesome game fits in by making the players still analyze the game hours after it ended. Both kinds of fitting in can be pleasant to experience, but only the other will leave a lasting impression.

I disagree with you on two key points here. Firstly that 4p dominion is bland (you don't outright say it but it's heavily implied) it's not as well balanced as 2p (which is far from perfect itself) but it is enjoyable of its own merit. Secondly (and this is the key thing I've been saying for most of the discussion) I feel that, rather than social interaction making up for a bad game, the function of board games like 4p dominion is as an aid to a social experience.

I'm getting a little tired of what feels to me like writing the same thing repeatedly and people not paying attention to it but feel obligated to respond when people respond to my posts if I haven't said anything so I'm going to keep checking the thread but won't post again in response to something to the gist of "4p dominion is bad but social interaction makes up for it." (Sorry for the tone here, I'm not sure how to honestly say this without it sounding bitter).
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liopoil

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2014, 07:33:46 pm »
0

Does 4 player dominion aid social interaction any more than other 4 player board games? For me, no, but maybe you've experienced differently?
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Aidan Millow

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2014, 07:44:39 pm »
0

Does 4 player dominion aid social interaction any more than other 4 player board games? For me, no, but maybe you've experienced differently?

No, most 4p board games that aren't really bad would suffice (though dominion has the positive of not being as big of a time commitment as some other games). Although I can't be confident that board games work as a social aid for you at all (I might well be the only person here who needs the help).
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Awaclus

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2014, 02:01:52 am »
0

I disagree with you on two key points here. Firstly that 4p dominion is bland (you don't outright say it but it's heavily implied) it's not as well balanced as 2p (which is far from perfect itself) but it is enjoyable of its own merit. Secondly (and this is the key thing I've been saying for most of the discussion) I feel that, rather than social interaction making up for a bad game, the function of board games like 4p dominion is as an aid to a social experience.

I'm getting a little tired of what feels to me like writing the same thing repeatedly and people not paying attention to it but feel obligated to respond when people respond to my posts if I haven't said anything so I'm going to keep checking the thread but won't post again in response to something to the gist of "4p dominion is bad but social interaction makes up for it." (Sorry for the tone here, I'm not sure how to honestly say this without it sounding bitter).
4p Dominion might or might not be "bland", but it most certainly is a much less interesting game than 2p Dominion. If it is enjoyable of its own merit, you won't have much social interaction with the other players during the game. When you go to a concert, you don't talk with your friends while the band performs on the background if the band is good. Just like a bland chair can be perfect for sitting, board games like 4p Dominion can be perfect as an aid to a social experience, and the very reason why that can be is that they aren't as good as some other games.

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Aidan Millow

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2014, 04:12:41 am »
0

If it is enjoyable of its own merit, you won't have much social interaction with the other players during the game.

Unless you hold "enjoyable of it's own merit" to a very high standard that depends on your play group.
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Holger

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2014, 10:01:16 am »
+1

--edge cases--
these are more or less covered in
Now, the above game doesn't sound very fun, but 4-player dominion is actually even worse. It also has the additional changes from the above variant that are harder to emulate with just 2 players:

-discard down to X attack cards (and attack cards in general) are played more reliably instead of 3 times one turn and none the others
[...]

I don't see this covering the disincentive to buy non-stacking attacks in multiplayer. Your "king's courting all attacks" is the actual edge case IMO, not this disincentive. E.g. in the base game, only one (Thief) out of five attack cards stacks linearly - and it's weak enough to rarely matter even in 4p. All other attacks should be bought far less (per player) in 4p than in 2p, since they're often not worth buying if the attack part is partially negated.

And you are right in noting that not quite all of the differences are bad things. I would totally play 4p with 16 provinces/duchies/estates, but that doesn't fix a lot of the problems. I also don't own intrigue IRL, so I can't do that.

That's too bad, but you could still use four blank cards as substitute Provinces (if you have blanks); the Duchy and Estate pile sizes don't matter that much, but one could also use differently marked blank cards here. If one was willing to invest twice the money in Dominion for a good 4p experience, I'd also consider using maybe 12 or 16 kingdom cards per pile in 4p, but I don't think it's that necessary. Instead, I might try the four-piling rule also in 4p.
If the attacks annoy you, you could also just use kingdoms with fewer (or no) attacks, and replace them by positive interaction cards - most of these, like CR or Governor, do stack and can therefore be considered as "king's courted" in 4p.
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Showdown35

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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2014, 10:18:58 am »
0

This is an interesting conversation. I'll throw in another opinion on the debate that hasn't really been brought up yet.

I actually prefer 4p games for 2 reasons:

 I am very social, and the more friends around the better;

 I find 2p Dominion (and many other 2p versions of games) to get boring. I know many forum members will jump all over me for saying that, but please read my explanation before expressing your distaste for my opinion. I am not saying 2p is bad or uninteresting, but rather gets stale when you consider that you are constantly looking for the "right move" or "best play" based on the math, research, simulations, etc. Now Dominion is one of the best games at avoiding thia staleness since every time you play it's with a different set of cards, but once you've become accustomed to playing 2p, it just becomes more about who can make the "right" buys first, or who understands the math better. Compare that to 4p, where there are far more variables to consider. Yes, you lose some of the skill game needed for 2p, but does that really classify it as "bad". I find it much more fun when I can't just follow a set of rules of what cards to buy and what not to buy. With 3 other players to consider, the "right" buy is not as clearcut. Again, 2p and 4p play very differently, but I don't think you can classify either as "bad".

Also, when my group plays 4p, we actually don't socialize that much, we are usually watching each other take our turns because they are usually interesting since it's not the same old big money or engine strategy every time. We play the game for fun! Not saying that the 2p skill game isn't fun, I do indeed still enjoy playing it, but I find I have more fun when the game is unpredictable.
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Re: Variant: 4 player Dominion with only 2 players
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2014, 10:56:54 am »
+2

The subtle advantage of a 4p game to me is that you are "counterplaying" against three different kinds of decks instead of one.  No one will ever consider me an advocate for 4p games, but there's definitely strategical space in figuring out how to deal with three opposing decks, likely of different strategy, instead of just one.  For example, Treasure Map becomes a way more valuable card.
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