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[Witherweaver]

So Ash just had a five page argument about a unit system without any relevance to units.

Anyway, that we should switch to metric is obvious.  That non scientists shouldn't have any influence over it is clear as well.

[Kirian]

We aren't adding numbers to the discussion; the US customary unit system is doing it.

I'm saying the numbers have nothing to do with the discussion whatsoever.  Just remove all numbers and math and division and all that from the discussion, and instead focus on the two sets of units that we're debating.

That's all I've been trying to do.

That's a bit like discussing cooking without talking about food.  Or playing Dominion and without cards.  These units mean nothing without numbers, and measurements mean nothing without units.

If you don't care about measuring things, why are we even talking about measurement systems?

Man, I made this point already.  I care about how a drachm of poison sounds much better than 3.6966911953125 ml of poison.  That's measuring something.

But I'm not arguing that we should use the number 1 instead of the number 3.6966911953125.  Just that drachm is better than milliliters.

OK, this is where I bow out.  You're trying to argue that words don't have meanings, and only have... sound, I guess?  And if words don't have meanings, then you can happily claim that black is white, and any further conversation with you is meaningless, and therefore useless.

[pubby]

is it happening at the day-to-day level?  Are kids learning metric in grade school?

Most kids in the US are exposed to metric in school, no? Maybe not grade school, but certainly middle and high school. It's been this way since the 60s/70s.

Anyway, that we should switch to metric is obvious.

I don't see how this is obvious at all. Switching is a large undertaking and Imperial is good enough for most people.

[Witherweaver]

Because it's bad and the other way is not bad.  It may be effort now, but your future generations will thank you by never knowing how terrible their lives could have been.

[Seprix]

Because it's bad and the other way is not bad.  It may be effort now, but your future generations will thank you by never knowing how terrible their lives could have been.

Imperial isn't bad. Professors aren't always right.

[Seprix]

(p + l)(a + n) = pa + pn + la + ln

I just foiled your plan.

[ashersky]

Because it's bad and the other way is not bad.  It may be effort now, but your future generations will thank you by never knowing how terrible their lives could have been.

This seems as hyperbolic as anything I've said all thread.

[pacovf]

witherweaver: Apples are more nourishing than Oranges.
Ashersky: You are horrible. Orange blossoms smell nicer than Apple blossoms.
witherweaver (&co): Nonsense. Apples are more nourishing than Oranges.
Asherky: Bullshit. Orange blossoms are pure fragance. Apple blossoms repugn me.
witherweaver (&co): That's completely irrelevant! Apples are the more nourishing fruit!
Ashersky: Why do you even keep bringing that up, that's not what I am discussing! You monster want to replace all Orange trees with Apple trees!

EDIT: now you don't need to read the past 5 pages.

[ashersky]

is it happening at the day-to-day level?  Are kids learning metric in grade school?

Most kids in the US are exposed to metric in school, no? Maybe not grade school, but certainly middle and high school. It's been this way since the 60s/70s.

Anyway, that we should switch to metric is obvious.

I don't see how this is obvious at all. Switching is a large undertaking and Imperial is good enough for most people.

I know the first rule I ever owned had centimeters on it, even though it was a foot long.  I think it'd odd for people to claim metric doesn't or hasn't existed in the United States, like it's a shunned practice or something.

Both seem to live just fine together.  I know there are a few dozenists or whatever that are trying to eradicate metric systems out there.  It just seems like there are way more supporter of metric trying to exterminate all users of the Imperial units.

And really, that seems too extreme to me.

tldr; I agree with pubby.

[ashersky]

witherweaver: Apples are more nourishing than Oranges.
Ashersky: You are horrible. Orange blossoms smell nicer than Apple blossoms.
witherweaver (&co): Nonsense. Apples are more nourishing than Oranges.
Asherky: Bullshit. Orange blossoms are pure fragance. Apple blossoms repugn me.
witherweaver (&co): That's completely irrelevant! Apples are the more nourishing fruit!
Ashersky: Why do you even keep bringing that up, that's not what I am discussing! You monster want to replace all Orange trees with Apple trees!

etc.

I'm fairly certain this is wrong on multiple levels.

Mostly you are missing where witherweaver wants to chop down all orange trees and smash orange farmers' heads to pulp with the dead branches because oranges are the bane of his existence.

Also, no capital "a" in my username.

[ashersky]

#1 is happening in science and research and probably industry that is at all international, but is it happening at the day-to-day level?  Are kids learning metric in grade school?

We can retire the words slowly.  Phase it in.  Teach the next generation metric and imperial.  Drop imperial from practical use the generation after.  It's not really so simple as this, but it's the general direction you should go.  You won't be erased.  You'll be remembered fondly as quaint.

Note that Canada is already like this.  We use metric for everything, but we also use inches, feet and pounds in everyday life because of American influence.

You may be more familiar with "meter".  It's the same word for rhythm in poetry.  You see, it was a double pun!  Granted, "foot" is also a poetic measurement, but as a single word it doesn't sound as nice.

Ah, meter.  Yes, another great pun.  I like it.

As mentioned above, metric is taught in U.S. schools, along with Imperial units.  I'm not familiar with Canadian customs, but do the roads switch from MPH to KMPH for speed limits when you drive across the border?  Or do they have a / and list both?

The unit used in Shakespearean time and place aren't even the same one that you use now.  You can still use that word even after switching to metric.

I mean, I have already switched to metric, haven't I?  My car only shows KMPH, the gas station only sells "petrol" by the liter, and the temperature outside (and inside) is shown with little numbers and the letter C.  I was never given the option to switch.

But if I were to ask for 270.512182 drams of Diet Coke, I'm pretty sure I'd fail in getting that 1 liter bottle.  So I don't know that I can still use the word after having switched.

(Note: I don't know that Goneril actually used a drachm of poison for anything; I was just inventing an example.)

[pacovf]

I'm fairly certain this is wrong on multiple levels.

Mostly you are missing where witherweaver wants to chop down all orange trees and smash orange farmers' heads to pulp with the dead branches because oranges are the bane of his existence.

Also, no capital "a" in my username.

My point is, you are arguing about different things, and neither side is interested in arguing about what the other side is arguing about (save eHalcyon, maybe). So this whole conversation is pointless.

Sorry about the capital "a" in your username.

[sudgy]

Just a random thing I realized that makes the names in the metric system a bit better is that no matter what the type of unit, the different sizes have the same names.  In metric, you have a meter, and you put the different prefixes on it to make the centimeter, the millimeter, kilometer, etc.  In Imperial, you just have several unrelated words, inch, foot, yard, mile, etc.

But, in another area, let's say volume, you have the liter in metric.  You put the same prefixes to make centiliters (which I've never heard of), milliliters, kiloliters, etc.  Now, in the Imperial system, you have to memorize several new words, the ounce, the cup, the pint, the quart, etc.

In the end, there's less words to memorize as in metric you just memorize one word for each type of unit (and a few prefixes that apply to all units), where in Imperial, you have several words to memorize for each type of unit.

[eHalcyon]

As mentioned above, metric is taught in U.S. schools, along with Imperial units.  I'm not familiar with Canadian customs, but do the roads switch from MPH to KMPH for speed limits when you drive across the border?  Or do they have a / and list both?

Canada officially uses metric, like the rest of the world other than the USA and a feel hold outs.  Speed limits are all in kph.  I don't know if roads near the border have signs with both to make it easier for Americans.

But we commonly use inches, feet and pounds in everyday speech.  Just those 3.  We don't use yards (though most know that one yard is 3 feet, approximately 1 meter) and we don't use miles.  I know pounds are made up of some number of ounces which I can never remember (12 or 16?) but I don't know what the next unit of weight up is.  Tons?  As for volume, I believe Canadian use of quarts, pints, cups, etc. depends largely on how much one is involved in cooking, though metric is used there too.

As for rulers, they probably come with both inches and cm because manufacturers are lazy and want to sell on both sides of the border.

Actually looking it up, it appears that Canada underwent metrification in the 1970s.  The older generations still primarily use imperial units while younger ones do not as much (though there is some mixing, of course).  The passage about it on Wikipedia is pretty interesting even for me.

Glancing briefly at the sections for other nations, I've just learned that the UK's metrification is even more recent (1995).  Huh.  Also, there is apparently a different between Imperial and something called "US Customary", so it turns out that we're all confused.

The unit used in Shakespearean time and place aren't even the same one that you use now.  You can still use that word even after switching to metric.

I mean, I have already switched to metric, haven't I?  My car only shows KMPH, the gas station only sells "petrol" by the liter, and the temperature outside (and inside) is shown with little numbers and the letter C.  I was never given the option to switch.

But if I were to ask for 270.512182 drams of Diet Coke, I'm pretty sure I'd fail in getting that 1 liter bottle.  So I don't know that I can still use the word after having switched.

(Note: I don't know that Goneril actually used a drachm of poison for anything; I was just inventing an example.)

Yeah, but you don't live in the States.  And you are apparently really grumpy about it.

Can you ask for drinks in drams in the US?  I thought it was all measured in ounces.  But the point is, you could still use it in your literature, just like you could use "thou art" and "wherefore".

By the way, I find it totally wild that you are using the British spelling "drachm".

My point is, you are arguing about different things, and neither side is interested in arguing about what the other side is arguing about (save eHalcyon, maybe). So this whole conversation is pointless.

Well, ashersky started out arguing that metric was more (or at least as) confusing as imperial, but I think he ceded that pretty quickly even if he didn't outright admit it.  I just noticed when he started arguing for the aesthetic instead.

[Kuildeous]

I keep reading long posts defending this "divide by 10" characteristic as so fantastic, but I keep contending that once you take ease of use out of the discussion, metric loses by a mile. 

So you're saying that if you remove the part that makes metric easier than imperial, then metric is not easier. Okay, that's a strange argument, but I admit that it is indeed not easier if you remove that which makes it easier. I'm still hazy on why metric is so much worse.

Someone please record themselves singing "500 Miles" by The Proclaimers in metric, please.  That's 804.672 kilometers, by the way.  Per the defenders of metric trying to state it is superior to imperial, please show me how that goes for you.

Man, I made this point already.  I care about how a drachm of poison sounds much better than 3.6966911953125 ml of poison.  That's measuring something.

But I'm not arguing that we should use the number 1 instead of the number 3.6966911953125.  Just that drachm is better than milliliters.

The crux of your argument is that imperial units just sound better? That's a weird argument. That's like arguing that a Smart Car is better than a Porsche because you think the Smart Car looks cooler (trick analogy; nobody thinks that).

And besides, no one says you have to stick to those numbers. Did the Proclaimers think that 1000 miles is some mystical, ideal length that converting it to metric would be disastrous? No, it's just something cute to throw into a love song. It could have been 1000 kilos. Or even 1000 meters (which is a long ways for a fatty like me). Or, you know, just stick with miles because it fits the song so well.

Also, nobody cares that it's 3.7 mL of poison. The exact amount of poison is irrelevant to the story. You could get the same effect by saying a "drop of poison" or a "dollop of wallop." Whatever, man. This is one the worst straw men I've seen. We're talking about using the metric system in place of imperial in everyday usage. Literature and music are their own thing, and nobody is saying that we need to go back and convert all imperial units to metric. The nice thing about the arts is that they can retain their poetry.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

How do you guys get Base 10!? I can only get to 2nd Base... 

Just be more patient.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

(p + l)(a + n) = pa + pn + la + ln

I just foiled your plan.

And yet multiplied it as well.

Oh, got it. Very nice.  Very subtle.

Man, that is just lovely.  Very nicely played sir.  F O I L.

F'kin awesome.

[sudgy]

(p + l)(a + n) = pa + pn + la + ln

I just foiled your plan.

And yet multiplied it as well.

Oh, got it. Very nice.  Very subtle.

Man, that is just lovely.  Very nicely played sir.  F O I L.

F'kin awesome.

I don't get it...

[Seprix]

(p + l)(a + n) = pa + pn + la + ln

I just foiled your plan.

And yet multiplied it as well.

Oh, got it. Very nice.  Very subtle.

Man, that is just lovely.  Very nicely played sir.  F O I L.

F'kin awesome.

I don't get it...

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

(p + l)(a + n) = pa + pn + la + ln

I just foiled your plan.

And yet multiplied it as well.

Oh, got it. Very nice.  Very subtle.

Man, that is just lovely.  Very nicely played sir.  F O I L.

F'kin awesome.

I don't get it...

The way to multiply out the terms in the first part of the equation is to multiply the First term in each parenthetical, repeat for the Outer terms, repeat for the Inner terms, and then finally the Last terms, while adding all the resulting multiplicands together.  The mnemonic is First, outer, inner, last. FOIL.  So he foiled the plan.

Edit:  I know I am a nerd, but I nominate this as a best Dominion moment of 2015, and it's not even Dominion related.

[ashersky]

Canada officially uses metric, like the rest of the world other than the USA and a feel hold outs.  Speed limits are all in kph.  I don't know if roads near the border have signs with both to make it easier for Americans.

But we commonly use inches, feet and pounds in everyday speech.  Just those 3.  We don't use yards (though most know that one yard is 3 feet, approximately 1 meter) and we don't use miles.  I know pounds are made up of some number of ounces which I can never remember (12 or 16?) but I don't know what the next unit of weight up is.  Tons?  As for volume, I believe Canadian use of quarts, pints, cups, etc. depends largely on how much one is involved in cooking, though metric is used there too.

Technically, the next weight up from pound is stone (14 pounds), but we don't use it in the US.  The Brits use it religiously, though, even after metrification.

Yeah, but you don't live in the States.  And you are apparently really grumpy about it.

Can you ask for drinks in drams in the US?  I thought it was all measured in ounces.  But the point is, you could still use it in your literature, just like you could use "thou art" and "wherefore".

By the way, I find it totally wild that you are using the British spelling "drachm".

I suspect that drams are only available in the most hipster of bars.  And I would punch them.

Besides, don't we all order our drinks by the number of fingers we want?

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

Besides, don't we all order our drinks by the number of fingers we want?

I do.  And I specify that the vessel into which the spirit is to be poured is a foot tub. 

Although there is another British unit of volume, used in such circumstances:  the Moat.

[Ichimaru Gin]

[Witherweaver]

Can you ask for drinks in drams in the US?  I thought it was all measured in ounces.  But the point is, you could still use it in your literature, just like you could use "thou art" and "wherefore".

It's "fluid ounces", and nobody, I mean nobody, knows what that means.*

Though you could measure fluid in ounces, it just wouldn't be the same amount as the same number fluid ounces.  Except for the ones with unit density in those units.  Unless you're using ounces to mean a volume based on some other standard density.

*Okay it must be something, like, the volume of one ounce of some liquid at some conditions (STP or something).  But is that ounce a unit of force or mass?  Who knows?  So maybe you have to specify that it's being done at a particular location relative to some heavy object (like, at sea level). 

[Witherweaver]

Cooking measurements are the worst.  When you have a recipe in a country using the metric system, how to you measure everything?  We have things like teaspoons, tablespoons (why?  For the love of god, WHY???), cups, ounces (what is this?!?!?  I don't even know what fundamental property I'm measuring), and other things.

Oh, and naturally, things are denominated in fractions, generally based on powers of 2.  So you'd have, like, 1/2 tsp, 1/4 tsp, 1/8 tsp, etc.  "tsp" means "teaspoon", which means something but who knows what.  "tbsp" means "tablespoon" which means something bigger.  Like a bigger spoon.  I mean, you have spoons, too, but these are not standardized, because anyone can make a spoon.  But some spoons are special spoons, and some of them you use to drink tea, and the others you use to drink tables.  Okay it's probably bigger because it goes on the table to use for other things (e.g., soup, cereal).  I guess it's okay to use the same sized spoon for soup or cereal, but god forbid it goes near your teacup. 

We also have the cup.  Cups are also things that can contain liquid, but don't confuse cups with cups or you may end up with too much stuff. 

I honestly don't know how cooks don't go insane.