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Author Topic: Random Stuff Part II  (Read 1226695 times)

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silverspawn

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1100 on: October 12, 2014, 03:55:24 am »
+4

playing poker... my opponent bets 724 chips... i go allin with 725 chips... he folds. okay?

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1101 on: October 12, 2014, 07:50:35 am »
0

Speaking of nostalgia, I loved Secret of Mana when I was a kid. Looking back now, I still like its characters, world, art style, and music. But the combat is just a list of things not to do in that kind of adventure game.

Can you explain? (I am just curious because it is basically the only game of its genre I ever played.)
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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1102 on: October 12, 2014, 11:30:00 am »
+3

Speaking of nostalgia, I loved Secret of Mana when I was a kid. Looking back now, I still like its characters, world, art style, and music. But the combat is just a list of things not to do in that kind of adventure game.

Can you explain? (I am just curious because it is basically the only game of its genre I ever played.)

A lot of it boils down to the fact that they were an RPG company and they tried to turn an RPG into an adventure game instead of just making an adventure game.

There's a Miss Chance: This is maybe the most egregious holdover. In a tabletop RPG, a lot of the fun and tension comes from rolling dice to determine if your character succeeds or fails at tasks, including hitting foes with their weapons. A lot of early console RPGs (like Final Fantasy) stuck with this mechanic. (The first Final Fantasy game is basically a carbon copy of D&D, right down to the monsters.) I don't think it's really necessary in a console RPG, but it's not objectionable, especially because most of these games also held over multiple attacks; even if just some of your attacks hit, you were still dealing damage to your target. And if your casters missed because they only had one attack and a poor chance to hit, well what were they doing attacking with a weapon anyway?

But in an adventure game where you actually in control of your character's position relative to your target, a miss chance is unacceptable. If you play Secret of Mana, you'll notice this a lot. You'll swing or fire your weapon and the monster will do a little dodge animation and take no damage. It doesn't even say, "Miss!" Two early examples in the game are at the ruins south of Pandora. First there are the flying tomato men, which are essentially invincible to physical attacks due to their high evasion rate. Then there are the chess knights who, if you let them cast Speed Up on themselves, will dodge all of your attacks and then hop of you and smack you to the ground.

If you want to make a monster difficult to hit, actually make it difficult to hit! Maybe it moves quickly to dodge your attacks. Or it might be protected by a shield on some sides or at certain times, making you time your attacks accordingly. Giving your attacks—which you've already aimed—a flat-out percentage chance to not deal damage isn't fun and is just bad game design.

Your Attacks Need to Charge: In an adventure game where you're walking up to opponents to hit them, you have to make sure the player can't just endlessly juggle enemies by attacking relentlessly. You have to space out the attacks to make the combat longer and more interesting. Secret of Mana does this in what might be the worst possible way. After you attack with your weapon, there's a cooldown meter that starts counting up (quickly) from 0% to 100%. If you attack again before the meter reaches 100%, your attack has a much higher chance to miss and does drastically less damage.

When I first saw somebody else complaining about this feature, I was defensive. As a system, it works and you get used to it before too long. But the reality is that it's a huge copout and almost any other solution provides for more interesting and fun gameplay. Even the next-biggest copout—a monster being invincible for a short time after it gets hit—would be worlds better because then you could divide your attacks between multiple foes, trying to keep them all from getting too close to you, etc. As it is, you hit (or miss) a monster, then run around avoiding combat until your meter charges.

Worse yet are the attacks you can charge even further for more power. While charging above 100%, you move incredibly slowly, yet have to avoid getting hit. And the punchline is that many of the attacks take long enough to execute that you're likely to miss your target entirely (because you don't connect with it, not because of the percentage miss chance).

Again, there are much better ways to handle this. Some monsters can retreat quickly when hit. Others can teleport away. Or some can force you to use a hit and run strategy in order to avoid their counterattacks.

Magic Freezes the Action (In More Than One Way): Secret of Mana has supports up to three players simultaneously with each player controlling one of the three characters. The game was the first I was aware of to have a "ring" menu system, where you could select a spell or item to use without a big menu covering the whole screen. Of course, this was completely pointless because the entire game paused whenever any player had the ring menu open anyway! This just kills multiplayer. Do you know how frustrating it is for the player with the warrior character when the magic-users are constantly pausing your game in order to cast spells? And if the casters hold off, it's less fun for them because they can't deal much weapon damage.

But even playing single-player, you can't escape the breaks in the action. Whenever a character or monster casts a spell, the caster and all of the targets are immobile and invincible. Or at least they don't take the damage they're accruing until after the spell is over. Then they suddenly get thrown back and take all the accumulated damage at once. One upshot of this is that it's trivially easy to kill almost any boss by chain-casting an attack spell that it's weak to over and over. If you cast it fast enough, the boss never gets a chance to attack or move. What fun is that?
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silverspawn

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1103 on: October 12, 2014, 12:55:34 pm »
0

tl;dr

I just had a game with a hand with moneylender, copper, Market Square, Market Square, Market Square, but didn't play the moneylender because I didn't want 3 gold. dominion is a weird game.

Watno

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1104 on: October 12, 2014, 01:20:09 pm »
0

Discarding Market Square is optional?
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silverspawn

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1105 on: October 12, 2014, 01:21:16 pm »
0

i mean, I didn't want it enough to make it stop my turn. i wanted a deck with 23742964789364789 action cards and procession and snowball and that stuff without any golds, and played them for cards instead. at the end of the turn I played moneylender as my last action.

Axxle

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1106 on: October 12, 2014, 03:44:03 pm »
+1

Is Beyond Gold a thing?
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Titandrake

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1107 on: October 12, 2014, 05:42:35 pm »
+3

Is Beyond Gold a thing?

Marin was ahead of the curve on this - I remember a post where he said Gold was the most overrated card in the game.

It's a thing on certain boards. IIRC Beyond Silver was about taking the bare minimum of Silvers you needed, usually 1 or 2, and on sufficiently good engine boards the same is true for Gold - take only that which you need for payload. How much that is, well that's where Dominion gets tricky.

I also remember a league game I was watching with MarkowKette where we both agreed that not taking the triple Province was the right move. Dominion is a really, really neat game once you get deep enough.
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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1108 on: October 12, 2014, 06:00:00 pm »
0

playing poker... my opponent bets 724 chips... i go allin with 725 chips... he folds. okay?

I'm trying to understand someones reasoning for this. were there other players in the pot that he might of just wanted to give up now? even though its a terrible idea still...
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liopoil

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1109 on: October 12, 2014, 06:02:22 pm »
+2

When there is a way to gain provinces (or just points in general) using only action cards, treasure cards are usually bad. 1, rarely 2 silvers, and 0 gold is the way to go quite often.

playing poker... my opponent bets 724 chips... i go allin with 725 chips... he folds. okay?

I'm trying to understand someones reasoning for this. were there other players in the pot that he might of just wanted to give up now? even though its a terrible idea still...
there is none, that's the point. It's a ridiculous move. I can imagine the edgiest of edge cases where it is possible to be 100% certain that you have a losing hand, and he was bluffing.
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sudgy

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1110 on: October 12, 2014, 06:19:19 pm »
+2

playing poker... my opponent bets 724 chips... i go allin with 725 chips... he folds. okay?

I'm trying to understand someones reasoning for this. were there other players in the pot that he might of just wanted to give up now? even though its a terrible idea still...

Well, I've had people fold when there wasn't any betting yet.
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GeoLib

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1111 on: October 12, 2014, 06:21:07 pm »
0

playing poker... my opponent bets 724 chips... i go allin with 725 chips... he folds. okay?

I'm trying to understand someones reasoning for this. were there other players in the pot that he might of just wanted to give up now? even though its a terrible idea still...

Well, I've had people fold when there wasn't any betting yet.

Isn't that actually a good idea fairly often? If your hand sucks, don't bet.
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liopoil

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1112 on: October 12, 2014, 06:24:44 pm »
0

playing poker... my opponent bets 724 chips... i go allin with 725 chips... he folds. okay?

I'm trying to understand someones reasoning for this. were there other players in the pot that he might of just wanted to give up now? even though its a terrible idea still...

Well, I've had people fold when there wasn't any betting yet.

Isn't that actually a good idea fairly often? If your hand sucks, don't bet.
You can check if nobody has bet yet.
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Titandrake

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1113 on: October 12, 2014, 07:21:02 pm »
0

playing poker... my opponent bets 724 chips... i go allin with 725 chips... he folds. okay?

I'm trying to understand someones reasoning for this. were there other players in the pot that he might of just wanted to give up now? even though its a terrible idea still...

Well, I've had people fold when there wasn't any betting yet.

Isn't that actually a good idea fairly often? If your hand sucks, don't bet.
You can check if nobody has bet yet.

This depends on your betting system - in Hold'Em with small blind + big blind you have to at least match big blind. Unless you mean that people are folding after seeing the flop, but before anyone has bet. Then that's weird.
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GeoLib

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1114 on: October 12, 2014, 07:21:18 pm »
0

playing poker... my opponent bets 724 chips... i go allin with 725 chips... he folds. okay?

I'm trying to understand someones reasoning for this. were there other players in the pot that he might of just wanted to give up now? even though its a terrible idea still...

Well, I've had people fold when there wasn't any betting yet.

Isn't that actually a good idea fairly often? If your hand sucks, don't bet.
You can check if nobody has bet yet.

Ah, I thought you meant they hadn't bet yet. I'm used to hold 'em where there's always some bet.
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Rubby

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1115 on: October 13, 2014, 02:53:53 pm »
+1

playing poker... my opponent bets 724 chips... i go allin with 725 chips... he folds. okay?

I'm trying to understand someones reasoning for this. were there other players in the pot that he might of just wanted to give up now? even though its a terrible idea still...

Well, I've had people fold when there wasn't any betting yet.

If there is little or no money in the pot, this is much, much less bad than folding to a raise of 1 after betting 724.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1116 on: October 13, 2014, 03:57:24 pm »
0

Whew, it's good to know my area is not affected by the reorg. There were others who need new jobs, though. Hopefully they can stay within the company.
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Ichimaru Gin

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1117 on: October 13, 2014, 11:48:56 pm »
+2



Voltaire

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1118 on: October 14, 2014, 01:22:57 pm »
+1

There may be a "new" box for Dominion? Copy we just got in at the store has a "Made in USA" logo in place of where the Spiel des Jahres logo used to be. I think this is a recent change? Or maybe I just noticed it.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1119 on: October 14, 2014, 01:30:30 pm »
0

There may be a "new" box for Dominion? Copy we just got in at the store has a "Made in USA" logo in place of where the Spiel des Jahres logo used to be. I think this is a recent change? Or maybe I just noticed it.

Could you take a picture of it?
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Donald X.

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1120 on: October 14, 2014, 04:16:36 pm »
+4

There may be a "new" box for Dominion? Copy we just got in at the store has a "Made in USA" logo in place of where the Spiel des Jahres logo used to be. I think this is a recent change? Or maybe I just noticed it.
Confirm. I looked at a printing in mid-September to see if there were problems, since Jay was out of the country.

The printer is Hasbro now, which explains the new logo. The SdJ logo, I didn't notice that it was gone but see that it is. I believe you have to pay for it, so that might explain it. Possibly at this point the logo on the box isn't contributing to sales in the USA, dunno. Seems hard to get that data.

The copy I looked at had a few small mistakes, but nothing that had to be fixed. I believe they were going to fix "Labratory" on the insert for this printing, but weren't going to change two places where rulebook card images had a white border around them (around the black border). I argued for moving the USA logo to the opposite corner from the RGG logo, rather than having it directly above it; I personally don't like it, it seems like an appeal to bigotry to me, but what can you do. Dunno if it moved. The age on the box is 14+ rather than 8+; that's a necessary move to avoid raising the price due to awful laws in the US that protect us from killing our children with Dominion cards.
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Voltaire

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1121 on: October 14, 2014, 04:34:42 pm »
+1

Here's a photo of the bottom-right of the box, the only outward distinction I noticed.

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Voltaire

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1122 on: October 14, 2014, 05:02:40 pm »
+1

Just noticed the Dominion logo now has a Ⓡ after it in each instance it appears on the box, too.

(sorry for making the random stuff thread about absurd Dominion minutiae, everyone)
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GeoLib

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1123 on: October 14, 2014, 05:31:47 pm »
+2

The age on the box is 14+ rather than 8+; that's a necessary move to avoid raising the price due to awful laws in the US that protect us from killing our children with Dominion cards.

What law is this? Things for children aren't allowed to be affordable?
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soulnet

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Re: Random Stuff Part II
« Reply #1124 on: October 14, 2014, 05:41:13 pm »
0

What law is this? Things for children aren't allowed to be affordable?

Probably some material restriction, like what type of cartboard or ink or something like that can you use, or some shape / size thing to avoid killing kids by slaying them with a Thief. It was not so underpowered after all.
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