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[silverspawn]

I realized that Library was horrible too late.  I'm not so sure about getting CR, Market is a fairly viable option here and the CR card could help your opponent (lio got a few dud turns in that game, an extra card could have changed that).

dude market is one of the most underpowered 5$'s in terms of how much it actually does. it's only good because of its reliability, something that's not important in BM, because you dont have lots of action cards. market-BM is not a thing.

[sudgy]

I realized that Library was horrible too late.  I'm not so sure about getting CR, Market is a fairly viable option here and the CR card could help your opponent (lio got a few dud turns in that game, an extra card could have changed that).

dude market is one of the most underpowered 5$'s in terms of how much it actually does. it's only good because of its reliability, something that's not important in BM, because you dont have lots of action cards. market-BM is not a thing.

It's better than silver, and CR can help the opponent.  I'm not saying it's the best thing every, I'm just saying it should be considered.

[Beyond Awesome]

I realized that Library was horrible too late.  I'm not so sure about getting CR, Market is a fairly viable option here and the CR card could help your opponent (lio got a few dud turns in that game, an extra card could have changed that).

dude market is one of the most underpowered 5$'s in terms of how much it actually does. it's only good because of its reliability, something that's not important in BM, because you dont have lots of action cards. market-BM is not a thing.

It's better than silver, and CR can help the opponent.  I'm not saying it's the best thing every, I'm just saying it should be considered.

CR is infinitely better for BM than Market. I'm sorry, but CR BM is solid. Market/BM? That has to be pretty much a super, super weak bored for me to even consider that.

[dondon151]

When your opponent plays CR several times per turn, the huge card draw from your own CR lets you play it more often, and those extra cards make it more likely that you hit fatal double-Province turns against the engine.

[Awaclus]

CR can help the opponent.

But it helps you a lot more.

Engines typically buy a lot of cheap cards in the early game and draw the entire deck anyway in the late game. If the opponent already has a hand which will result in drawing his entire deck, the +1 card for him means nothing. If the opponent already has a hand which will result in getting the engine piece he's going to buy this turn, the +1 card for him means slightly faster cycling and nothing more.

The big money player wants a lot of expensive cards such as Golds and Provinces, and will never draw his entire deck no matter what. The 4th card you draw from CR has a significant chance of getting you over the $8 threshold, or the $9 threshold to buy Gold+Silver, or the $11 threshold to buy Province+Silver, or the $12 threshold to buy Gold+Gold, or the $13 threshold to buy Province+Duchy, etc. Not all of these are useful compared to a lower price point in all situations, but very often, even a single +$1 can enable something better than what you otherwise would have had, and at the very least, it removes a Copper from your next hand. The worst is probably getting a Silver to get you from $8 to $10, but even that allows you to buy an extra Estate in the late game, or the Gold+Silver rather than just Gold in the early game, or double Duchy in situations which probably will never happen against an engine. These are significant changes, unlike the "cycle 1 random card" that your opponent is getting.

[DStu]

Engines in base games are surprisingly common, the biggest problem with them is lack of villages.

I'm quite sure the ratio of villages is more or less costant over all expension with 1 village : 10 cards, and base is exactly on this spot with 2.5 villages (village, festival, tr)

But it might be kind of true in the sense that there are not really good combos for festival, as Festival/Lib usually lacks usefull cards for $3/$4.

[luser]

Engines in base games are surprisingly common, the biggest problem with them is lack of villages.

I'm quite sure the ratio of villages is more or less costant over all expension with 1 village : 10 cards, and base is exactly on this spot with 2.5 villages (village, festival, tr)

But it might be kind of true in the sense that there are not really good combos for festival, as Festival/Lib usually lacks usefull cards for $3/$4.

A bigger problem is that you need a chapel/cellar/millitia to make a festival+library work

[pacovf]

Engines in base games are surprisingly common, the biggest problem with them is lack of villages.

I'm quite sure the ratio of villages is more or less costant over all expension with 1 village : 10 cards, and base is exactly on this spot with 2.5 villages (village, festival, tr)

But it might be kind of true in the sense that there are not really good combos for festival, as Festival/Lib usually lacks usefull cards for $3/$4.

A bigger problem is that you need a chapel/cellar/millitia to make a festival+library work

I would say that militia doesn't help that much in a board with library.

[luser]

Engines in base games are surprisingly common, the biggest problem with them is lack of villages.

I'm quite sure the ratio of villages is more or less costant over all expension with 1 village : 10 cards, and base is exactly on this spot with 2.5 villages (village, festival, tr)

But it might be kind of true in the sense that there are not really good combos for festival, as Festival/Lib usually lacks usefull cards for $3/$4.

A bigger problem is that you need a chapel/cellar/millitia to make a festival+library work

I would say that militia doesn't help that much in a board with library.

Of course it does, When opponent plays millitia a library becomes a discard 2 cards, draw 5 cards which is often must-buy in millitia games.

[prom_vrt]

1) I'd prefer BM - Library in this case, with some cellars for sifting. The best engine case here may be Library - Market - Cellar with a few silvers and golds (but I think it's weaker.) Council room's extra card for opponents is like them playing a laboratory, which is by far so strong. I try to avoid this card unless discard attacks are available.

Additional note (edited): Going Library also allows Council Room player to go for this strategy safely because the extra card is mitigated by draw-up-to-X card. It's a Council Room paradox and it's hard to figure out whether to go for this or not.

2) I prefer Laboratory/Village (may add Smithy) and Woodcutter engine. The presence of Chapel means engine building should be easy.

[Awaclus]

1) I'd prefer BM - Library in this case, with some cellars for sifting. The best engine case here may be Library - Market - Cellar with a few silvers and golds (but I think it's weaker.) Council room's extra card for opponents is like them playing a laboratory, which is by far so strong. I try to avoid this card unless discard attacks are available.

Additional note (edited): Going Library also allows Council Room player to go for this strategy safely because the extra card is mitigated by draw-up-to-X card. It's a Council Room paradox and it's hard to figure out whether to go for this or not.

2) I prefer Laboratory/Village (may add Smithy) and Woodcutter engine. The presence of Chapel means engine building should be easy.

You don't want any Cellars for sifting in BM, definitely not over Silver. Council Room's extra card for opponents might be like them playing a Laboratory, but its extra card for you is also like you playing a Laboratory. And that effect is a lot stronger for BM than it is for engines, as has been stated before (in this situation, when there isn't an actual Lab that the BM player is just going to draw dead). Council Room being a soft counter against Library is just the last nail in the coffin.

Library/Market/Cellar is certainly not the best engine case there, I actually wouldn't even call that an engine at all. TBH, I'm not even sure if it counts as a strategy.

You don't need Village in a Laboratory engine, unless your payload requires multiple actions. You definitely want both Villages and Smithies, though.

[Jasoba]

For the first kingdom I would pick engine! But its by far not 2/3 for the engine! Really even banker bot can beat you with this.
The base set is very very balanced for engine vs bm!

Generally heavy village is bad in base game. Without workshop you cant just spend ~ 8 turns buying village and smithy. If you do that you reach the peak around turn 10 and draw your 7 coppers reliably... Even rebuild into village/smithy is mediocre!

When I go engine I might buy 1 or maybe 2 villages to chain my single terminals (chapel/woodcutter/militia). As Op stated festival is the mvp here.

Even more generally my base games are either workshop/garden witch/bm or lab engine. Festival/cellar/library is solid though!