OK, went through comments. I reply to fewer of them in the end because I was getting tired. These are mostly responses to you, Errin, though I comment on some others' thoughts a few times as well. I mostly agree with them. One difference is that I think Army is actually pretty strong whereas the others still seem to think it is on the weaker side. Maybe it's been updated since their comments.
I'll start with something positive -- I like your enthusiasm.
You may want to skip the rest though, if only because it's long and I end up repeating a lot of what's already been covered. OTOH, if the others haven't convinced you already, perhaps my approach and examples will better clarify to you where your concepts miss their mark. It's worth noting that my comments are all on your
updated cards, and that I never saw the ones before. Based on the comments, I get the idea that you've tried to strenthen and change cards based on the feedback, but I don't think you've done enough yet.
Anyway, don't let these criticism discourage you. As silverspawn joked, it's a good thing that you've gotten as much response as you have.
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way to other player's decks. The Gunpowder cards are trashed after use to limit how quickly a deck can be filled with cards that have Gunpowder in the cost. I consider Bomb to be incredibly useful because the only other trashing card that can trash itself after use is Hermit (which also requires special circumstances to trash itself). Otherwise, you get stuck with a trashing card like Chapel after it does its work. Use a few Bombs and your deck will clear up quickly.
Besides limiting the destructive power of the Gunpowder cost cards by making the Gunpowder trash itself after use, I wanted Gunpowder to not just be a straight up copy of Potion. What other Treasures trash themselves after use? Counterfeit may trash other treasures, but it doesnt trash itself. Gunpowder is cheaper than a Potion card, trashes itself after use, and the Gunpowder cost in a card vanishes after it leaves the Supply, making it like any other card (unlike the special rules for Potion cost cards). I also think that back in medieval/renaissance times, gunpowder use was very crude and limited, so it should be a task to use Gunpowder in Dominion as well. The Sulfur Pit card sort of remedies that if somebody wants to more easily build up a deck with Gunpowder cost cards. Every card in this expansion is meant to be different than Kingdom cards already in the game. I'm keeping the Gunpowder card as is because that's how it is meant to work, similar to Potion but not identical.
And you are quite mistaken that my wording for Cannon is the same as 'discard down to 3 cards'. Suppose Cannon and Soothsayer (or Governor or Council Room ) are in the Supply. Suppose there are a few players. Soothsayers/Governors get played and player's hands get up to 6 or 7 cards. Then a Cannon card gets played. With my wording, only two cards get hit (just like a Knight would hit two cards, or a Rogue, etc). With your wording, too many cards get discarded and possibly trashed. I picked that wording specifically to avoid such a situation. Its called reducing the 'swinginess' of the game. The scenario I put forth Soothsayers/Governors totally happens enough in gameplay and does indeed warrant precise wording. I would rather be thorough and specific. Its not like my wording is at all that confusing or complicated. Thanks for the feedback, but I'll most likely be keeping this variant expansion as is. Its meant to be limited in a certain way, which includes certain detailed word use so as to avoid too much destructive power when applied to certain situations that may pop up in any given Dominion game.
Potion already limits how quickly cards can be added to the deck, in that you can only ever buy one Potion-cost card per Potion in you deck per shuffle (edge case: Counterfeit). Gun Powder, as a self-trashing treasure, limits it far more, to the extent that getting more than a single GP-cost card is just not a good idea, unless the GP-cost cards themselves are extremely powerful.
Bomb is very weak. You can only get rid of one card, but the opportunity cost is huge. You have to give up a buy to get GP itself, then wait a shuffle, then another buy to get Bomb, then wait another shuffle before removing ONE card from your deck. This is far too slow for far too little impact. It's better to have a dead Chapel in your deck than those 9 remaining starting junk cards that you couldn't get rid of with Bomb. It looks like other commenters have brought up Island, which is a great comparison. Bomb is much harder to get than Island, but Island is worth 2VP (plus a potential extra VP if you set aside an Estate, compared to trashing an Estate with Bomb).
The concept is OK, but the execution is problematic in that your GP-cost cards do not have enough "destructive power" as to require limiting. The Potion-cost cards are more powerful and less limited. And it's fine to want to make cards unlike existing cards, but many similarities have already been noted. Moreover, you should also be considering how similar your cards are to each other.
The wording for Cannon is practically the same as "discard down to 3 cards". It's not identical, but the cases where it matters are uncommon. It's also not reducing swinginess. The cards that allow opponents to have more than 5 cards in hand during YOUR turn are cards that they don't play themselves -- Governor, Soothsayer, Council Room. Rather than reducing swinginess, your Cannon wording merely nullifies an interesting card combo.
Army is Lab+ so fine at $6. I would put a little buff on it because I think it's weak for a $6 card, but it clearly has to be because it's better than lab. Not sure what the buff could be because it has all the Pawn options. Have you tested it? Maybe it's fine. I'd buy it over Adventurer.
Not sure if you are underestimating the versatility of Army, or if I'm overestimating it, or if it's been updated since you made that comment. IMO, the one currently in the OP is very strong.
(By the way, am I the only person who makes decks that are Golem with only ONE type of Action card in the deck? That way I can always rely on the same action. Works great with Scheme and a few other Kingdom cards. Everybody else seems to have Golem be incidental, but if I use Golem, I revolve my whole deck around it).
Golem shouldn't be incidental. None of the Potion cards should be, really. Potion is such an investment that, if you go for it, you should have a plan for it. The only exception really is Transmute, which I might pick up incidentally if I already grabbed Potion for something else.
Another thing about these 3 cards... they are meant to be quite destructive (as well as profitable) if enough of them are used with enough actions in a turn. In the case of this expansion
That's fine, but there are two problems. First, it's far too difficult to pick up more than one of any of these because your GP disappears after use. Second, it will be very difficult to play them in large numbers when they are all terminal... and also relatively weak compared to cards like Knights. Given that they are so difficult to get, you could make them non-terminal to at least solve the second issue.
Reserves/Garrison/Factory... Basically the same concept
It's bad if you have three cards in a single set which are "basically the same concept." Small sets especially should strive for variety.
Garrison is strictly worse than Hamlet. That's the main problem with your expansion - cards are very weak. Unless I'm missing some crazy interaction, straight Big Money wins with any gunpowder based deck.
Garrison is not strictly worse because it can provide +3 actions, which Hamlet cannot. However, it may have been updated since you made this comment.
In regards to the sameness of some of the cards, that is indeed a theme in this expansion... most armies/militaries are not known for their variety. The Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers are meant to be similar and yet slightly improve on each other in rank. In this case, I feel there is plenty of variety still among the sameness. Sure, its mainly the Militia and Knight concept reworked in little ways, but that's going to be the main type of card in an expansion with the theme of warfare... Plus, that is the standard the game's creator set forth, and the Dominion is full of very similar cards that only have slight differences. Same goes for Dominion Gunpowder. Why would I get Factory over Garrison? Cuz maybe I want to build a deck about buys and coins. Why would I get Garrison over Reserves? Cuz maybe I want more Actions than Cards to sort through. My options are totally going change depending upon what is in the Supply. And although there is sameness within this expansion, it is not the same as any other expansion and is full of unique variations of cards already in the game.
I would disagree that militaries are homogenous. There is a difference between light infantry, heavy infantry, calvary, artillery, etc. and you can see this in RTS games, among others. Also, even though there are official Dominion cards that are very similar, they are not all grouped up in the same set. Sure, all the various village cards are minor variations of each other, but there are only a couple in each set.
Gunpowder... Is that really such a waste to buy a treasure card that then removes itself from your deck when used? You all like being stuck with a Potion card when there's no more useful Potion cost cards to buy from the Supply? How about when you have to buy Potion just because Familiar is the only Curser in the Supply, then when the Curses are spent or all the Familiars are bought up, you are stuck with a useless Potion card. Imagine a game that has Potion and Gunpowder in it, but no cards that trash. Does Gunpowder look so bad then? Plus, it only costs 3 Coin. That is very easy to get any given round. The trash itself thing isnt automatic when used, only if played and the Gunpowder symbol produced is spent. Its also trashing itself to make the process of building a deck of Gunpowder cost cards a limited process, which is a theme throughout Dominion. To me, it totally follows the guidelines put forth by this forum for how to make Dominion cards/expansions. Its all about balance and limitation. You seem to feel these cards are too limited, while I feel all Dominion cards are meant to be limited in one way or another, and these cards are no different. You have to judge them by a few standards, not just strong/weak. Any card can become very strong if it is the only one of its kind in the Supply for a game, or matches just right with other Kingdom cards. So, yes, the Gunpowder buying/spending process is somewhat tedious at the beginning, but is actually rather cheap and can be done quickly if you have a strong deck later in the game with plenty of buys and coin to spend. I think there's a few complexities in this expansion that you are not quite grasping or fully understanding as of yet.
The dead Potion hurts, but it would be worse if I have to buy a new one for every Potion card I want to get. If I managed to win the Curse split thanks to Familiar, I don't mind the Potion in my deck. In a game with both Potion and Gunpowder, Potion is probably better because almost all of the Potion cards are stronger than almost all of the Gunpowder cards (though it would depend on the rest of the board in the end). Sure GP is cheap to buy, but the opportunity cost is still there. Every GP I buy is a Silver or engine component that I don't buy.
Bomb... Interesting this is the main point of contention, as Bomb was the first card I thought of that then lead to the whole gunpowder/warfare concept behind this expansion. All I wanted to do was make a card that can trash any card then goes away itself. I dont like being stuck with Chapel after it has made itself useful by clearing the deck, and other such cards that Trash. Let's compare Bomb to other cards that trash.
You buy a Bomb, I buy a Chapel. It takes you an extra shuffle before you even get to play the Bomb, after which you remove one junk card from your deck. You still have 9 starting junk remaining. Meanwhile, I have trashed all of my starting cards with Chapel. Sure, I still have the Chapel, but you have 8 more junk cards than I do.
You go on to discuss how powerful trashing is, and you are correct. But you are vastly overestimating the power of a one-shot one-card terminal trasher. You even address the comparisons to Island, but somehow don't see the difference. Island you can buy outright while Bomb takes an extra shuffle and Buy to obtain because of its cost. Island isn't even that strong. It's decent, but it's very, very rare when Islands alone are effective for major deck trimming. Bomb is even slower.
Soldier... Meant to be cheap, weak, and expendable. Also meant to be used in numbers. Two of them used in one turn reduces every other player's deck to 3 cards. Urchin cant do that. Minion cant do that. Soldier in numbers can. Also, the card can both attack and react to attacks. To me that justifies the cost. If a game comes down to one attack after another, a strategically used Soldier may get trashed, but can end up shifting the balance so you win. I don't think you are quite factoring in properly how strong these cards can be in unison and in numbers. And in conjunction with the right Kingdom cards. Plus, suppose Soldier is the ONLY reaction card in the Supply to prevent attacks. Is he so useless then?
Urchin is far easier to get, and it's a cantrip to boot. Minion is a more powerful attack because 4 average cards is worse than best of 3. And that's not considering the fact that we are talking about one single card versus TWO Soldiers, each of which are expensive. You are underestimating the opportunity cost of investing in Potion/Gunpowder. You are also stressing the power of these cards "in numbers", but their cost means that you won't be able to muster a large force. Why should I take all the effort of getting Soldiers when I can get Knights instead? And yes, even if Soldier is the only reaction, it's still pretty weak.
Grenadier... Of course it is similar to Knights. Knights set the standard for destructive attack cards. Who else am I going to model warfare type cards after except for Knights and Rogues? But do Knights have a way to prevent attacks? No. Do Knights make a player discard from hand? Only one of them does; The other 9 don't. Two Knights attack in one turn, and unless one is Sir Michael, all the other players are left with a full hand. Two Grenadiers attack in one turn, and all the other players are down to 3 cards. A Knight deck versus Grenadier deck... Grenadiers can prevent a Knight's attack. Knights can't prevent a Grenadier's attack. And if a Grenadier prevents an attack one turn, he most likely shows up in your hand the next turn. A Grenadier deck most likely beats out a Knight deck. And again, Grenadier damages strong decks like Musketeer, and is only weak against weak decks. But again, weak decks full of trashable cards are no threat to anybody, and the last standard I'd ever use to judge a Dominion card.
By the time you get two Grenadiers, I will probably have 5 Knights. Knights can look at more cards than Grenadier, so it is more likely to successfully trash a Grenadier than the other way around. Grenadier can defend against ONE Knight attack, but that also prevents you from attacking with it that turn, so it evens out. And then you aren't able to defend against my second Knight. If my Knight gets trashed, it's not too tough to buy another. GP cost makes it much more difficult to replace a Grenadier.
Artillery... Similar but a worthy variation. And it has no problems cuz its not weak and can be very destructive, especially if a player using it knows what the top card of another player's deck is and chooses that option for artillery. It can both destroy cards from 3 to 6 coin cost and at the same time lower a player's cards in hand. And adds 2 coin. Would you rather have Dame Sylvia? lol
Cannon... Militia doesnt trash cards. Cannon is extremely destructive against a strong deck of cards. You seem more worried about weak decks than strong ones. That's not the Dominion I know. The Dominion I know is full of tough, strong decks to be worried about. If Cannon were in the Supply and no other card that trashes other player's cards were in the Supply, would you really take a pass on it and let your opponent grab up a bunch of cannons instead? If so, prepare to lose when he blows apart your deck once it gets to any worthy level of strength. Cannon is the most costly and strongest of the Gunpowder cost cards, and for good reason. I really dont think you'd think it was so weak if you had to play up against it.
If I'm choosing between a Knight and Artillery, I might opt for Artillery. It's not bad. But factoring in the cost of the cards, it's not so simple anymore. And even if I do go for Artillery, I'm not going to go for a second one because the opportunity cost of buying multiple GPs is THAT high.
If my opponent wants to pursue Cannons and spend 3 extra buys on Gunpwoder, I'd be happy to let him. I'll have most of the Provinces by the time he is able to attack me in earnest. And note that Province itself is a safe discard against all of these trashing attacks.
ill never understand how the amount of response in forums works
Pretty random for me... if I'm in the mood to critique, I will do it.
Gunpowder - So it works the same way as Potion, except that they are one-shot if used. You could actually make them fully one-shot to greatly simplify the rules without changing the effect much at all. The only time it really matters* that I can think of is in combination with Venture. Otherwise, players can simply choose not to play it. Therefore I would recommend simplifying the rules. It's not worth all the extra complexity to address one scenario.
* There is another edge case where it can matter -- if you are Possessed, you could be forced to play and trash your Gunpowder even though the possessor doesn't buy a Gunpowder-cost card. This is an edge case because the trashed Gunpowder will return to your deck; it only matters in rare reshuffle circumstances.
Oops, I missed Venture and Possession. You missed Bank, Horn of Plenty, Herbalist, and Mandarin. See my last post.
Ooh. Well, you win this round.
I believe all of these interactions can be preserved by having Gunpowder trash itself
when discarded from play. Best of both worlds.
