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Author Topic: Constructed General Discussion  (Read 252570 times)

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markusin

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #525 on: May 01, 2015, 06:27:14 pm »
0

Jorbles, I had the same thoughts after completing the new wing.  New version:

Circle of Healing x2
PW: S x2
Northshire Cleric x2
Twilight Whelp x2
SW: D
Velen's a Chosen x2
Blackwing Tech x2
Shadow Madness
Auchenai Soulpriest x2
Dragonkin Sorcerer x2
Hungry Dragon x2
Holy Nova x2
Blackwing Corrupter x2
Sludge Belcher
Drakonid Crusher x2
Chromaggus
Alexstrasza
Nefarian
I find it so sad that Priest got a conditional 2/3 for 1 mana when Zombie Chow already exists and combos with Auchenai. Having it used against me in the adventures, I acknowledge that being a dragon itself makes the whelp helpful as a dragon synergy enabler, but you only need 1 dragon to enable those synergies. It's very likely that a big dragon like Chromaggus or Alexstrasza is stuck in your hand early on anyway.

Resurrect is cool but is really skewed towards more control-style Priests. Decks where resurrect is good wouldn't have much else below 3 mana besides Northshire Cleric and maybe Pyromancer.
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popsofctown

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #526 on: May 01, 2015, 06:31:44 pm »
+1

Resurrecting Northshire for 2 mana is so totally fine.  Northshire originally costed 2 mana.
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Jorbles

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #527 on: May 01, 2015, 06:50:07 pm »
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Jorbles, I had the same thoughts after completing the new wing.  New version:

Circle of Healing x2
PW: S x2
Northshire Cleric x2
Twilight Whelp x2
SW: D
Velen's a Chosen x2
Blackwing Tech x2
Shadow Madness
Auchenai Soulpriest x2
Dragonkin Sorcerer x2
Hungry Dragon x2
Holy Nova x2
Blackwing Corrupter x2
Sludge Belcher
Drakonid Crusher x2
Chromaggus
Alexstrasza
Nefarian

Let me know how it does! I think Rend might still have a home somewhere in the deck, but I'd defer to your experience actually playing with it.
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markusin

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #528 on: May 01, 2015, 07:22:08 pm »
0

Speaking of Blackrock Mountain cards, how many of you have tried Dragon egg. I've included 2 of them along with 2 Nerubian eggs in my zoo deck, and I'm pleased with the results so far. Having more eggs goes a long way to giving more value to the standard zoo buff cards (Dire wolf, Sergeant, Argus, Dark Iron Dwarf), and you don't have to coin it out Turn 1 like you would for Nerubian. Your opponent dealing with it preemptively still costs at least 1 "action" more than they would need for typical minions. Combined with Imp Gang Boss, BRM has allowed Warlock to flood the board with buff targets quite reliably.
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popsofctown

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #529 on: May 01, 2015, 10:52:27 pm »
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Speaking of Blackrock Mountain cards, how many of you have tried Dragon egg. I've included 2 of them along with 2 Nerubian eggs in my zoo deck, and I'm pleased with the results so far. Having more eggs goes a long way to giving more value to the standard zoo buff cards (Dire wolf, Sergeant, Argus, Dark Iron Dwarf), and you don't have to coin it out Turn 1 like you would for Nerubian. Your opponent dealing with it preemptively still costs at least 1 "action" more than they would need for typical minions. Combined with Imp Gang Boss, BRM has allowed Warlock to flood the board with buff targets quite reliably.

I think egg zoo is the best warlock zoo, but I think warlock zoo is still a bad version of mage zoo for now unfortunately.
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ycz6

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #530 on: May 02, 2015, 01:50:40 pm »
+2

Speaking of Blackrock Mountain cards, how many of you have tried Dragon egg. I've included 2 of them along with 2 Nerubian eggs in my zoo deck, and I'm pleased with the results so far. Having more eggs goes a long way to giving more value to the standard zoo buff cards (Dire wolf, Sergeant, Argus, Dark Iron Dwarf), and you don't have to coin it out Turn 1 like you would for Nerubian. Your opponent dealing with it preemptively still costs at least 1 "action" more than they would need for typical minions. Combined with Imp Gang Boss, BRM has allowed Warlock to flood the board with buff targets quite reliably.

I think egg zoo is the best warlock zoo, but I think warlock zoo is still a bad version of mage zoo for now unfortunately.
As of Imp Gang Boss, Zoo is actually considered one of the strongest decks in the game, especially the demon-flavored midrange varieties. Check it: http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/484472-pr-april-2015-week-5-patron-warrior-best-deck-paladin-worst-class
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popsofctown

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #531 on: May 02, 2015, 02:02:14 pm »
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I don't think I would call that Zoo.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 02:03:53 pm by popsofctown »
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #532 on: May 02, 2015, 06:22:41 pm »
0

Speaking of Blackrock Mountain cards, how many of you have tried Dragon egg. I've included 2 of them along with 2 Nerubian eggs in my zoo deck, and I'm pleased with the results so far. Having more eggs goes a long way to giving more value to the standard zoo buff cards (Dire wolf, Sergeant, Argus, Dark Iron Dwarf), and you don't have to coin it out Turn 1 like you would for Nerubian. Your opponent dealing with it preemptively still costs at least 1 "action" more than they would need for typical minions. Combined with Imp Gang Boss, BRM has allowed Warlock to flood the board with buff targets quite reliably.

I think egg zoo is the best warlock zoo, but I think warlock zoo is still a bad version of mage zoo for now unfortunately.
As of Imp Gang Boss, Zoo is actually considered one of the strongest decks in the game, especially the demon-flavored midrange varieties. Check it: http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/484472-pr-april-2015-week-5-patron-warrior-best-deck-paladin-worst-class


Thanks for that link, good read.
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popsofctown

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #533 on: May 03, 2015, 12:20:21 am »
0

It's cool to hear that fibbonacci got 1st na.  I love playing against that guy in upper ladder.  He plays nothing but warrior which is really awesome dedication to see.


I hate how easy lower ladder is and wish ladder didn't reset so hard each month.  I'm 17 out of 21 wins with a gnomish experimenter deck right now.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 12:23:12 am by popsofctown »
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Jorbles

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #534 on: May 04, 2015, 02:08:58 pm »
0

Speaking of Blackrock Mountain cards, how many of you have tried Dragon egg. I've included 2 of them along with 2 Nerubian eggs in my zoo deck, and I'm pleased with the results so far. Having more eggs goes a long way to giving more value to the standard zoo buff cards (Dire wolf, Sergeant, Argus, Dark Iron Dwarf), and you don't have to coin it out Turn 1 like you would for Nerubian. Your opponent dealing with it preemptively still costs at least 1 "action" more than they would need for typical minions. Combined with Imp Gang Boss, BRM has allowed Warlock to flood the board with buff targets quite reliably.

Thanks for mentioning this, I built up an Omelette Zoo deck and won like 8 games in a row.
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markusin

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #535 on: May 05, 2015, 07:55:26 am »
0

Speaking of Blackrock Mountain cards, how many of you have tried Dragon egg. I've included 2 of them along with 2 Nerubian eggs in my zoo deck, and I'm pleased with the results so far. Having more eggs goes a long way to giving more value to the standard zoo buff cards (Dire wolf, Sergeant, Argus, Dark Iron Dwarf), and you don't have to coin it out Turn 1 like you would for Nerubian. Your opponent dealing with it preemptively still costs at least 1 "action" more than they would need for typical minions. Combined with Imp Gang Boss, BRM has allowed Warlock to flood the board with buff targets quite reliably.

Thanks for mentioning this, I built up an Omelette Zoo deck and won like 8 games in a row.
Lol Omelette Zoo. I'm trying out a more Zoo-like Midrange Lock inspired by the deck ranking link above, still with the Dragon and Nerubian eggs. It's a shame I don't have Mal'ganis, so there's little reason to go heavy on demons. However having Dr. Boom helps a lot to against the more control-y decks. I've also swapped Sea Giant with Volcanic Drake for now just to see what happens. Volcanic Drake is a significantly smaller body than 8/8, but is an option if you really don't want BGH targets in your deck.
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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #536 on: May 05, 2015, 10:20:30 am »
0

Played Nefarian against a Mage...got Duplicate and Flamestrike.

He drops Azure and Silver Hand Knight, I play both spells.  He was basically done then, but put up a good fight.
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Jorbles

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #537 on: May 05, 2015, 01:25:14 pm »
0

Speaking of Blackrock Mountain cards, how many of you have tried Dragon egg. I've included 2 of them along with 2 Nerubian eggs in my zoo deck, and I'm pleased with the results so far. Having more eggs goes a long way to giving more value to the standard zoo buff cards (Dire wolf, Sergeant, Argus, Dark Iron Dwarf), and you don't have to coin it out Turn 1 like you would for Nerubian. Your opponent dealing with it preemptively still costs at least 1 "action" more than they would need for typical minions. Combined with Imp Gang Boss, BRM has allowed Warlock to flood the board with buff targets quite reliably.

Thanks for mentioning this, I built up an Omelette Zoo deck and won like 8 games in a row.
Lol Omelette Zoo.

Gotta break a few eggs!

Quote
I'm trying out a more Zoo-like Midrange Lock inspired by the deck ranking link above, still with the Dragon and Nerubian eggs. It's a shame I don't have Mal'ganis, so there's little reason to go heavy on demons. However having Dr. Boom helps a lot to against the more control-y decks. I've also swapped Sea Giant with Volcanic Drake for now just to see what happens. Volcanic Drake is a significantly smaller body than 8/8, but is an option if you really don't want BGH targets in your deck.

That sounds cool, I don't have Malganis either, but I do think he'd make the demon aspect of the deck really strong.
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popsofctown

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #538 on: May 05, 2015, 06:39:47 pm »
+1

Turn 6 Knife Juggler Implosion is making me want to quit the game.  4 damage and 2 tokens or 8 damage and 4 tokens.  But the total amount of luck possible is beyond an order of magnitude of 2 because you can have 2 poorly thrown knives versus 4 accurate ones.

Blizzard is trying to teach me to be content with Brawl's level of RNG
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Awaclus

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #539 on: May 05, 2015, 06:56:38 pm »
+3

Turn 6 Knife Juggler Implosion is making me want to quit the game.  4 damage and 2 tokens or 8 damage and 4 tokens.  But the total amount of luck possible is beyond an order of magnitude of 2 because you can have 2 poorly thrown knives versus 4 accurate ones.

Blizzard is trying to teach me to be content with Brawl's level of RNG

In general, I really dislike Implosion. It would have been fine if you'd get 6-X Imps where X is the amount of damage dealt. It would have been fine if it just dealt 2-4 damage and gave 2-4 (randomize again) Imps. But no, the card just has to be worded in such a way that the majority of the time you're getting one of the extremes.
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ycz6

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #540 on: May 05, 2015, 07:40:37 pm »
+1

Turn 6 Knife Juggler Implosion is making me want to quit the game.  4 damage and 2 tokens or 8 damage and 4 tokens.  But the total amount of luck possible is beyond an order of magnitude of 2 because you can have 2 poorly thrown knives versus 4 accurate ones.

Blizzard is trying to teach me to be content with Brawl's level of RNG

In general, I really dislike Implosion. It would have been fine if you'd get 6-X Imps where X is the amount of damage dealt. It would have been fine if it just dealt 2-4 damage and gave 2-4 (randomize again) Imps. But no, the card just has to be worded in such a way that the majority of the time you're getting one of the extremes.

Not that this makes it good design, but I think the point of them scaling together is so that the card synergizes with spell damage. More than spells normally do, I mean.
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popsofctown

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #541 on: May 05, 2015, 09:27:12 pm »
+1

Turn 6 Knife Juggler Implosion is making me want to quit the game.  4 damage and 2 tokens or 8 damage and 4 tokens.  But the total amount of luck possible is beyond an order of magnitude of 2 because you can have 2 poorly thrown knives versus 4 accurate ones.

Blizzard is trying to teach me to be content with Brawl's level of RNG

In general, I really dislike Implosion. It would have been fine if you'd get 6-X Imps where X is the amount of damage dealt. It would have been fine if it just dealt 2-4 damage and gave 2-4 (randomize again) Imps. But no, the card just has to be worded in such a way that the majority of the time you're getting one of the extremes.

Not that this makes it good design, but I think the point of them scaling together is so that the card synergizes with spell damage. More than spells normally do, I mean.

Which is another chance to be disappointed in the dull nature of Blizzard's insight into design.  Spell damage only appears on minions.  Implosion is a spell that summons many minions, making its primary vulnerability mass removal.  Scaling off of the effect of a minion you need to have in play, one which has poor health for its cost unless it's dalarnever mage, amplifies the card's weakness.  Darkbomb synergizes with spell damage more than Implosion does, in practice because cost is a much bigger factor.  Mortal Strike synergizes better too, because Mortal Strike can target face and improving the number of possible "solve for lethals" in your deck is more of a benefit than improving your deck's ability to overextend.  I'm actually not sure I can come up with a spell that deals damage and synergizes LESS with implosion, it would have to cost almost as much or more, have no AoE, and have no hero targeting.  Shadowbolt, -maybe-.  Oh, Felheart!  Felheart synergizes less with spell damage.  Huzzah..

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Jorbles

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #542 on: May 05, 2015, 11:22:37 pm »
+3

Tell us how you really feel.
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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #543 on: May 05, 2015, 11:31:24 pm »
0

Is running Double Mind Control a thing now?  I ran into that on the low ladder today.
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markusin

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #544 on: May 06, 2015, 12:14:44 am »
0

Turn 6 Knife Juggler Implosion is making me want to quit the game.  4 damage and 2 tokens or 8 damage and 4 tokens.  But the total amount of luck possible is beyond an order of magnitude of 2 because you can have 2 poorly thrown knives versus 4 accurate ones.

Blizzard is trying to teach me to be content with Brawl's level of RNG

In general, I really dislike Implosion. It would have been fine if you'd get 6-X Imps where X is the amount of damage dealt. It would have been fine if it just dealt 2-4 damage and gave 2-4 (randomize again) Imps. But no, the card just has to be worded in such a way that the majority of the time you're getting one of the extremes.

Yes, this is what I would have preferred all along. I don't like the design of Implosion. With Crackle, and to some extend the Boom Bots, the high end of the random damage can just overkill stuff, but with Implosion doing more damage always translates to lots of value. Thinking about it, it should just spawn 3 Imps. Combo with Spell Damage, just to make not having Swipe/Whirlwind/Fan of Knives feel even worse for your opponent? I don't need that to be satisfied with the card.
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popsofctown

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #545 on: May 06, 2015, 07:37:05 pm »
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I mean, ycz6 probably hit the nail on the head in terms of identifying the origin of the bad design.  "Spell damage +X" has in general been a field of disappointing design decisions from Blizz.  From the getgo it's not a great thing to spend a lot of time on, it an overly specific X enables Y relationship.  A couple cards on the theme would be fine, but as an evergreen force-it-to-be-relevant recurring mechanic, no.  The awkward forward compatibility and class specific variation on the theme are extra reasons not to make it such a focus.

Bloodmage Thalnos is a very nasty way of forcing the mechanic to be relevant, and balancing him only by legendariness has made the game swingier, notably with  turn 5 Thalnos-Lightning Storm. 

Azure Drake is no longer overbearing, but early in the game's lifespan its power level was very "forced".  It contributed to Argent Commander being a highly centralized card (it was 4/3 then).  It still kind of is overbearing and a tad game warping:  Shaman benefits from the spell damage more than Paladin, but both those two classes badly need a cantrip creature to avoid empty hand issues.  Shaman has been more well positioned than Paladin for a long time and that's probably still the case right now.
Priest would be on the Pally's team and Rogue would be on the Shaman's team on that count too..

Speaking of Shaman, we have Wrath of Air Totem, probably the swingiest totem.

Ok I need to stop posting at some point.
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markusin

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #546 on: May 07, 2015, 09:39:57 pm »
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Turn 6 Knife Juggler Implosion is making me want to quit the game.  4 damage and 2 tokens or 8 damage and 4 tokens.  But the total amount of luck possible is beyond an order of magnitude of 2 because you can have 2 poorly thrown knives versus 4 accurate ones.

Blizzard is trying to teach me to be content with Brawl's level of RNG
And now you also have to worry about Bane of Doom summoning those 5+ mana demons, all of which are formidable in their own way.
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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #547 on: May 07, 2015, 11:20:54 pm »
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Jorbles, I had the same thoughts after completing the new wing.  New version:

Circle of Healing x2
PW: S x2
Northshire Cleric x2
Twilight Whelp x2
SW: D
Velen's a Chosen x2
Blackwing Tech x2
Shadow Madness
Auchenai Soulpriest x2
Dragonkin Sorcerer x2
Hungry Dragon x2
Holy Nova x2
Blackwing Corrupter x2
Sludge Belcher - Lightbomb
Drakonid Crusher x2
Chromaggus
Alexstrasza
Nefarian

Let me know how it does! I think Rend might still have a home somewhere in the deck, but I'd defer to your experience actually playing with it.

One change to the decklist noted above -- I dropped the Blecher for a Lightbomb because I felt I didn't have the ability to clear a board enough, especially in the later game.

Experience so far (all low ladder): it feels possibly viable, maybe.  Like, I'm winning more than losing, but that's probably just as much my opponents as it is my deck (and my skill).  Generally games feel like this:

Early game: dropping value to keep board control (so 2/3 Whelp, 3/5 Techs, coined Hungry Dragons) and/or trying to draw important cards with Cleric heals and PW: S.
Mid game: one of two things - increase big board presence by buffing Sorcerers (Sorcerer + PW: S is a 4/8 for 5 mana and only one card "spent" on T5) and Hungry Dragons or clearing the board with Soulpriest + COH or Holy Nova/Lightbomb.  I guess Corrupter damage comes in here, but it's only good against single targets.
Late game: I'm not winning with single big minions, but more two-four heavies, like buffed mid-dragons or 9/9 crushers.

I think the three big dragons (Chromaggus, Alex, and Nefarian) are definitely not equal.  Like, Alex is there as a save for me or to get instant pressure on my opponent if I've been focused on the board the entire game.  Nefarian is almost always great, as two free spell cards does make a difference.  Chromaggus has been the weak link, and is probably better off replaced by something else (Boom?  Rend?).

Cards I wonder about...I took out Azure Drakes, as the bodies are weak and the spell power only helps Novas, but I wonder if at least one might not be a good idea anyway.  I have no taunts, which sometimes adds to the feeling of helplessness when I don't draw the board clears.  Do I want my Belcher back in?  Or a Sunwalker?
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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #548 on: May 08, 2015, 09:26:51 am »
0

Jorbles, I had the same thoughts after completing the new wing.  New version:

Circle of Healing x2
PW: S x2
Northshire Cleric x2
Twilight Whelp x2
SW: D
Velen's a Chosen x2
Blackwing Tech x2
Shadow Madness
Auchenai Soulpriest x2
Dragonkin Sorcerer x2
Hungry Dragon x2
Holy Nova x2
Blackwing Corrupter x2
Sludge Belcher - Lightbomb
Drakonid Crusher x2
Chromaggus
Alexstrasza
Nefarian

Let me know how it does! I think Rend might still have a home somewhere in the deck, but I'd defer to your experience actually playing with it.

One change to the decklist noted above -- I dropped the Blecher for a Lightbomb because I felt I didn't have the ability to clear a board enough, especially in the later game.

Experience so far (all low ladder): it feels possibly viable, maybe.  Like, I'm winning more than losing, but that's probably just as much my opponents as it is my deck (and my skill).  Generally games feel like this:

Early game: dropping value to keep board control (so 2/3 Whelp, 3/5 Techs, coined Hungry Dragons) and/or trying to draw important cards with Cleric heals and PW: S.
Mid game: one of two things - increase big board presence by buffing Sorcerers (Sorcerer + PW: S is a 4/8 for 5 mana and only one card "spent" on T5) and Hungry Dragons or clearing the board with Soulpriest + COH or Holy Nova/Lightbomb.  I guess Corrupter damage comes in here, but it's only good against single targets.
Late game: I'm not winning with single big minions, but more two-four heavies, like buffed mid-dragons or 9/9 crushers.

I think the three big dragons (Chromaggus, Alex, and Nefarian) are definitely not equal.  Like, Alex is there as a save for me or to get instant pressure on my opponent if I've been focused on the board the entire game.  Nefarian is almost always great, as two free spell cards does make a difference.  Chromaggus has been the weak link, and is probably better off replaced by something else (Boom?  Rend?).

Cards I wonder about...I took out Azure Drakes, as the bodies are weak and the spell power only helps Novas, but I wonder if at least one might not be a good idea anyway.  I have no taunts, which sometimes adds to the feeling of helplessness when I don't draw the board clears.  Do I want my Belcher back in?  Or a Sunwalker?
It's hard to find a card in your deck to swap out for Belcher or Sunwalker. If you feel you need all your board clears (which might be reasonable against all those aggro decks floating around now), then possibly Alex can be swapped with a good taunt. Both are trying to save you, but a taunt has the benefit of saving you from out-of-hand combos  and comes out sooner. That would only leave you with 10 dragons though. Yoy have more experience than me on whether that's enough dragons to reliably trigger stuff.
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ycz6

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Re: Constructed General Discussion
« Reply #549 on: May 08, 2015, 02:09:16 pm »
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Ten ought to be plenty, the deck here with the most dragons has 10.
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