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Author Topic: New Promo at Origins...  (Read 137420 times)

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RD

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #250 on: June 15, 2014, 11:35:16 am »
0

I think my favorite 4 cost would in fact be something like a simple Smithy or Envoy.
Starting every turn with so many cards makes everything much easier.
This has been my thinking too. If you can get big draw reliably and draw up your other Actions, it's as good as Princing all of them. That's got to be your plan A, right? If it isn't available, then something else.

Of course the cool thing about Prince (and maybe the time it has the biggest impact?) is the ability to play cards when you don't have an engine, but you work with what's there.
I think the other major case is where you Prince a +1 Action card to act as a guaranteed Village (or Prince a Village as a guaranteed Crossroads) to get an engine going.
Well, Princing an ineffectual +1 Action card like say a Great Hall is almost strictly inferior to the next alternative. I mean if you have Prince of Great Hall in a Smithy engine, your hope is to draw a Smithy and play it with your first Action, thus winding up in the same position as if you had Prince of Smithy. Same if you replace Smithy with a non-drawing terminal. Whichever card you'd want to spend your first real Action on, you might as well Prince that one, at least if you get the chance to (and are willing to go one turn without playing it).

I'm inclined to think the same goes for Prince of Village. If it's a full-fledged engine you prefer to Prince the Smithy and hope to draw the Village, rather than vice versa. Big hands raise the chance things will go according to plan, I think it's as simple as that. If it's a non-engine scenario where Prince of Village would play like a Walled Village, well 3 actions is probably overkill anyhow.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 11:38:12 am by RD »
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Davio

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #251 on: June 15, 2014, 12:54:49 pm »
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I'd rather start my turn with 8 cards and 1 Action than 6 cards and 2 actions in general. Most engines revolve about some kind of payload and seeing more cards helps to keep finding that payload.

Smithy and Village themselves do nothing, they enable other stuff and with 8 cards each turn it's easier to start your chain, finding more Villages and Smithies.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 12:57:32 pm by Davio »
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theblankman

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #252 on: June 15, 2014, 01:38:34 pm »
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Prince of Rebuild

Honestly, that would actually probably suck because you are missing a rebuild turn plus you paid $8 to buy a Prince, and how did you get $8 anyway if you're playing Rebuild.
Not to mention you need a cost-reducer to put Rebuild on Prince, so it's a three-card connection plus a delay, and the alternative (plain Rebuild + whatever) is very fast.  As much as we love edge cases around here, I dare say Prince of Rebuild might be too edgy even for us. 
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dondon151

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #253 on: June 15, 2014, 01:47:33 pm »
+2

You would want to Prince a cantrip if your terminal draw costs more than $4. And most terminal draw cost more than $4.
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SirPeebles

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #254 on: June 15, 2014, 02:08:06 pm »
+3

I sort of mentioned this previously -- and LastFootnote seems to have partially confirmed it -- but it seems that is will be difficult to really plan a deck around a specific Prince strategy, in the following sense.  If you want to King's Court a Mountebank, you get one of each and do what you can until they collide.  In the meantime though, you'll play the King's Court with Villages, Smithies, or whatever other card you happen to draw it with.  But with Prince you'd probably just play it immediately with whatever you can as soon as possible.  This seems to make the card extraordinarily swingy.  In fact, it may demand more flexibility from the players, since even mirror matches may suddenly diverge quickly when I Prince a Militia and you Prince a Smithy.
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werothegreat

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #255 on: June 15, 2014, 02:20:39 pm »
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I think Prince will be good in engines where you want to draw your whole deck, but there's a lack of +Action - Prince can take care of certain terminals that you don't have any spare +Action to play every turn - like Merchant Guild or Goons or your terminal draw, if you so desire.
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SirPeebles

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #256 on: June 15, 2014, 02:29:59 pm »
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Prince of Libraries is a wonderful counter to handsize attacks or in conjunction with Outpost.
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liopoil

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #257 on: June 15, 2014, 02:30:52 pm »
+1

Prince of Libraries is a wonderful counter to handsize attacks or in conjunction with Outpost.
or watchtower or even JOAT if you don't have a cost reducer
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SirPeebles

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #258 on: June 15, 2014, 02:32:07 pm »
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Prince of Libraries is a wonderful counter to handsize attacks or in conjunction with Outpost.
or watchtower or even JOAT if you don't have a cost reducer

Right, was just about to edit that post to Watchtower instead.  Keep forgetting the cost restriction.
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Grujah

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #259 on: June 15, 2014, 02:32:23 pm »
0

Harem Prince.

A true pimp?


It's not an action :(
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silverspawn

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #260 on: June 15, 2014, 02:46:02 pm »
0

Prince of Libraries is a wonderful counter to handsize attacks or in conjunction with Outpost.
or watchtower or even JOAT if you don't have a cost reducer
that's not very good though, watchtower likes small hands not big hands, that goes against the concept of prince. you will only draw 1 card, and even if you had to discard, you're only going to draw 3, which is just as much as with smithy. also, you can't use the reaction part of watchtower for anything.

SirPeebles

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #261 on: June 15, 2014, 03:08:49 pm »
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Prince of Libraries is a wonderful counter to handsize attacks or in conjunction with Outpost.
or watchtower or even JOAT if you don't have a cost reducer
that's not very good though, watchtower likes small hands not big hands, that goes against the concept of prince. you will only draw 1 card, and even if you had to discard, you're only going to draw 3, which is just as much as with smithy. also, you can't use the reaction part of watchtower for anything.

The concept of Prince is big hands?  I think that's your own mental construct.  Also, most kingdoms don't have Smithy.
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Awaclus

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #262 on: June 15, 2014, 03:14:46 pm »
+1

The concept of Prince is big hands?  I think that's your own mental construct.  Also, most kingdoms don't have Smithy.
Non-small hands are, though. Unless you're attacked, Princing a Watchtower is as good as Princing a Ruined Library, since the card itself doesn't disappear from your hand.
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blueblimp

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #263 on: June 15, 2014, 03:22:18 pm »
+1

The value of Prince is effectively two things:
  • A sort of hybrid City/Alchemist: +2 actions +2 cards that you top-deck after each turn.
  • Guaranteeing you get to play a certain card each turn, effectively top-decking it each turn.
Ignoring the "every turn" aspect, 1 is the effect of a one-empty-pile City, and 2 is the effect of a Scheme. Since effect 1 is strictly better than Laboratory, as a card alone it'd cost more than $5 even without the top-decking. On the other hand, we know that Scheme is strong but okay at $3.

Because of that, I argue that the real value of Prince comes from effect 1, which doesn't depend on which card you set aside with it. So as long as you pick a card to set aside that isn't outright bad to play each turn, it doesn't really matter which one you pick, since you still get effect 1.
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SirPeebles

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #264 on: June 15, 2014, 03:27:30 pm »
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The concept of Prince is big hands?  I think that's your own mental construct.  Also, most kingdoms don't have Smithy.
Non-small hands are, though. Unless you're attacked, Princing a Watchtower is as good as Princing a Ruined Library, since the card itself doesn't disappear from your hand.

But the context in which we said it was good was precisely in response to discard attacks or with Outpost.  I've played plenty of games where I was bound to be hit with a Militia by at least one of my opponents every turn.  This is only more likely when they have access to Prince as well.
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SirPeebles

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #265 on: June 15, 2014, 03:31:11 pm »
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The value of Prince is effectively two things:
  • A sort of hybrid City/Alchemist: +2 actions +2 cards that you top-deck after each turn.
  • Guaranteeing you get to play a certain card each turn, effectively top-decking it each turn.
Ignoring the "every turn" aspect, 1 is the effect of a one-empty-pile City, and 2 is the effect of a Scheme. Since effect 1 is strictly better than Laboratory, as a card alone it'd cost more than $5 even without the top-decking. On the other hand, we know that Scheme is strong but okay at $3.

Because of that, I argue that the real value of Prince comes from effect 1, which doesn't depend on which card you set aside with it. So as long as you pick a card to set aside that isn't outright bad to play each turn, it doesn't really matter which one you pick, since you still get effect 1.

It is so much more than scheme -- not only do you "top deck" the card, but you effectively make it a cantrip as well.  Starting each turn with a cantrip Militia is significantly better than starting each turn with a Militia.
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eHalcyon

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #266 on: June 15, 2014, 03:32:03 pm »
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Prince of Watchtowers to counter the Prince of Militias.
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AJD

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #267 on: June 15, 2014, 03:32:39 pm »
+2

The value of Prince is effectively two things:
  • A sort of hybrid City/Alchemist: +2 actions +2 cards that you top-deck after each turn.
  • Guaranteeing you get to play a certain card each turn, effectively top-decking it each turn.
Ignoring the "every turn" aspect, 1 is the effect of a one-empty-pile City, and 2 is the effect of a Scheme. Since effect 1 is strictly better than Laboratory, as a card alone it'd cost more than $5 even without the top-decking. On the other hand, we know that Scheme is strong but okay at $3.

Because of that, I argue that the real value of Prince comes from effect 1, which doesn't depend on which card you set aside with it. So as long as you pick a card to set aside that isn't outright bad to play each turn, it doesn't really matter which one you pick, since you still get effect 1.

It is so much more than scheme -- not only do you "top deck" the card, but you effectively make it a cantrip as well.  Starting each turn with a cantrip Militia is significantly better than starting each turn with a Militia.

That's the part (1) of Blueblimp's post.
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SirPeebles

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #268 on: June 15, 2014, 03:36:10 pm »
+8

I think Prince and Outpost are going to really get along well. While you won't Prince the Outpost itself, the Outpost lets you squeeze significantly more value out of your Princes, which in turn provide the support Outpost needs to help you catch up after having diverted Province buys to Prince.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 03:49:00 pm by SirPeebles »
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Awaclus

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #269 on: June 15, 2014, 03:36:37 pm »
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But the context in which we said it was good was precisely in response to discard attacks or with Outpost.  I've played plenty of games where I was bound to be hit with a Militia by at least one of my opponents every turn.  This is only more likely when they have access to Prince as well.
Well, in those cases it's very good, but still only as good as Smithy. It's incredibly good against Torturer, though.
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heron

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #270 on: June 15, 2014, 09:21:10 pm »
+2

Prince is sort of like King's Court-Scheme.
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GendoIkari

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #271 on: June 15, 2014, 10:14:57 pm »
+6

There's also a lot of boards that I think will be "too good" for Prince. Things like Scheme, Scrying Pool, or even just Village / Smithy engine with good trashing can build decks capable of reliably drawing itself every turn, and playing every action in the deck every turn. In these decks, Prince doesn't help at all (except increasing reliability; but that should only matter after heavy greening).
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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #272 on: June 19, 2014, 04:45:31 am »
+12

Drawing another dead hand, desperately trying to line it up with your smithy while your opponent has just bought Province no. 3, sighing wistfully:

Some day my Prince will come.
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Davio

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #273 on: June 19, 2014, 06:48:26 am »
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I wonder if Prince will be good enough to open Death Cart for, or whether you're better off with general building.

I mean, I don't open Death Cart to get King's Court, but $8 is significantly harder than $7 (not linearly harder).
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DG

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #274 on: June 19, 2014, 07:53:30 am »
+1

Prince of coppersmiths could be a thing. The coppersmith gives you 8 coin hands and then the prince of coppersmiths lets you build a drawing deck for the rest of the game.
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