Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[GendoIkari]

Mining Village > Village
Wishing Well > Ruined Library
Hamlet > Ruined Library

Mining Village you are correct. But The other 2 no... Wishing Well can cause an unwanted reshuffle just like Moat vs Ruined Library. For Hamlet, that extra action can cause an unwanted reshuffle if you play Storyteller then Diadem.

You're right about Hamlet, but what if you wish for the ace of spades when you play Wishing Well?

Revealing the extra card will still trigger the reshuffle.

Also, even without that, the extra action still causes the Storyteller/Diadem issue. Thus why Pearl Diver doesn't win against Ruined Library.

[singletee]

In fact, if you do say that prices and names (and Possession) are the only edge cases to ignore, then I do believe that the only real strictly better situations I can think of are:

Butcher > Remodel
Expand > Remodel
Worker's Village > Village

If Coppers, Curses, and Estates are all gone, Remodel can trash Copper/Curse to nothing, but Expand cannot.

[Roadrunner7671]

In fact, if you do say that prices and names (and Possession) are the only edge cases to ignore, then I do believe that the only real strictly better situations I can think of are:

Butcher > Remodel
Expand > Remodel
Worker's Village > Village

If Coppers, Curses, and Estates are all gone, Remodel can trash Copper/Curse to nothing, but Expand cannot.

That would be a three pile end game. The game would be over.

[GendoIkari]

In fact, if you do say that prices and names (and Possession) are the only edge cases to ignore, then I do believe that the only real strictly better situations I can think of are:

Butcher > Remodel
Expand > Remodel
Worker's Village > Village

If Coppers, Curses, and Estates are all gone, Remodel can trash Copper/Curse to nothing, but Expand cannot.

That would be a three pile end game. The game would be over.

But it could still happen during a turn, if the third pile were emptied that turn. So then you just need to find a reason that being forced to gain a instead of nothing could hurt you. And I can think of one...

After doing the Remodel/Expand, you then play Ambassador to return 2 Curses to the pile. Thus preventing the game from ending on a 3-pile. The game goes a few more turns, and that Silver that you were forced to gain stops your engine from drawing what it needs.

Edge case accepted, well done singletee.

[Roadrunner7671]

In fact, if you do say that prices and names (and Possession) are the only edge cases to ignore, then I do believe that the only real strictly better situations I can think of are:

Butcher > Remodel
Expand > Remodel
Worker's Village > Village

If Coppers, Curses, and Estates are all gone, Remodel can trash Copper/Curse to nothing, but Expand cannot.

That would be a three pile end game. The game would be over.

But it could still happen during a turn, if the third pile were emptied that turn. So then you just need to find a reason that being forced to gain a instead of nothing could hurt you. And I can think of one...

After doing the Remodel/Expand, you then play Ambassador to return 2 Curses to the pile. Thus preventing the game from ending on a 3-pile. The game goes a few more turns, and that Silver that you were forced to gain stops your engine from drawing what it needs.

Edge case accepted, well done singletee.

Then why would you play Expand?

[GendoIkari]

In fact, if you do say that prices and names (and Possession) are the only edge cases to ignore, then I do believe that the only real strictly better situations I can think of are:

Butcher > Remodel
Expand > Remodel
Worker's Village > Village

If Coppers, Curses, and Estates are all gone, Remodel can trash Copper/Curse to nothing, but Expand cannot.

That would be a three pile end game. The game would be over.

But it could still happen during a turn, if the third pile were emptied that turn. So then you just need to find a reason that being forced to gain a instead of nothing could hurt you. And I can think of one...

After doing the Remodel/Expand, you then play Ambassador to return 2 Curses to the pile. Thus preventing the game from ending on a 3-pile. The game goes a few more turns, and that Silver that you were forced to gain stops your engine from drawing what it needs.

Edge case accepted, well done singletee.

Then why would you play Expand?

You're still replacing a Curse with a Silver.

[GendoIkari]

Also, a simpler edge case: It's a 5 player game, which means 4 piles need to drain instead of 3.

[singletee]

I was thinking 5-player game, or you don't want the Silver clogging your Venture chains.

[GendoIkari]

I was thinking 5-player game, or you don't want the Silver clogging your Venture chains.

Oh right, even if the game does end during this same turn, that Silver in your deck could cost you the game with Venture.

[iguanaiguana]

I was thinking 5-player game, or you don't want the Silver clogging your Venture chains.

I agree that you don't want an expand in a 5 player game where the first three piles to empty are copper, curse, and estate, but my reasoning I think is a little different

[Witherweaver]

If we're ignoring names entirely, then Counterfeit > Copper. 

[eHalcyon]

If we're ignoring names entirely, then Counterfeit > Copper.

I think we should ignore names generally, i.e. for cards that only care about name (e.g. Fairgrounds, Menagerie), but not for cards that actually care about specific cards, e.g. Baron, Coppersmith.

[GendoIkari]

If we're ignoring names entirely, then Counterfeit > Copper.

I think we should ignore names generally, i.e. for cards that only care about name (e.g. Fairgrounds, Menagerie), but not for cards that actually care about specific cards, e.g. Baron, Coppersmith.

Hmmm...  So this makes me realize that we (or at least I) didn't include any VP cards on the list. If I had, I'd say Colony>Province>Duchy>Estate. But I guess you're saying that Estate doesn't fit in there, because Baron? I suppose that's a fair point.

*Edit* Actually, I definitely agree with you about Copper. It's not really directly related to a naming thing, it just happens to be true that Copper can be worth more than sometimes. Thus it can be better than Counterfeit.

[eHalcyon]

If we're ignoring names entirely, then Counterfeit > Copper.

I think we should ignore names generally, i.e. for cards that only care about name (e.g. Fairgrounds, Menagerie), but not for cards that actually care about specific cards, e.g. Baron, Coppersmith.

Hmmm...  So this makes me realize that we (or at least I) didn't include any VP cards on the list. If I had, I'd say Colony>Province>Duchy>Estate. But I guess you're saying that Estate doesn't fit in there, because Baron? I suppose that's a fair point.

*Edit* Actually, I definitely agree with you about Copper. It's not really directly related to a naming thing, it just happens to be true that Copper can be worth more than sometimes. Thus it can be better than Counterfeit.

It's up for discussion of course.  I'm not sure if I've even given a suitably clear dividing line.

Some other cards that care about specific cards include Inheritance, Feodum, Counting House.  Duchy might not fit in that VP set either because of Duke, nor Province because of Tournament.

[Limetime]

Beef is strictly better than Chicken

[eHalcyon]

Beef is strictly better than Chicken

But chicken wings.

It's not strictly better at all.  It really depends on the plate.

[werothegreat]

The only basic cards that can be done like that are Platinum>Gold.  Copper has Coppersmith/Counting House, Silver has Feodum, Estate/Duchy/Province are all referenced, as is Curse, by Mountebank/Quest.

[eHalcyon]

The only basic cards that can be done like that are Platinum>Gold.  Copper has Coppersmith/Counting House, Silver has Feodum, Estate/Duchy/Province are all referenced, as is Curse, by Mountebank/Quest.

Well, there's also Taxman for all treasures, but maybe that should fall under the Fairgrounds clause.

[Accatitippi]

Platinum instead of gold can also trigger an unwanted shuffle if Storytellered, if we are still caring about that.

[Dingan]

Having computers shuffle for you is strictly better than having to shuffle IRL.

Also, a computer's memory for what I did with my Pawns is strictly better than my memory.

[faust]

The only basic cards that can be done like that are Platinum>Gold.  Copper has Coppersmith/Counting House, Silver has Feodum, Estate/Duchy/Province are all referenced, as is Curse, by Mountebank/Quest.

You opponent's turn, you are 9 points ahead and there is one Colony left. You know that your opponent's deck is 10 Ventures/Noble Brigand and a bunch of other actions/green cards. Opponent plays Noble Brigand, revealing your Colony/Gold, trashing Gold and gaining it. He then plays Venture, reveals the gained Gold, and has $5. If that Gold of yours had been a Platinum, your opponent would not have gained it and could have triggered his Venture chain, producing $11 and buying the last Colony.

[Accatitippi]

I love how a newbie who's not familiar with f.ds and reads this thread would conclude that gold>platinum and cantrips suck because, gosh!, all those unwanted resuffles must really be bad, since everybody's fretting about them.

[Awaclus]

I love how a newbie who's not familiar with f.ds and reads this thread would conclude that gold>platinum and cantrips suck because, gosh!, all those unwanted resuffles must really be bad, since everybody's fretting about them.

Well, that might be the case if this was in the Dominion General discussion forum, but it's in Puzzles and Challenges. It should be pretty obvious that this is not strategy discussion, but puzzle discussion.

[GendoIkari]

Having computers shuffle for you is strictly better than having to shuffle IRL.

Also, a computer's memory for what I did with my Pawns is strictly better than my memory.

Edge case: The computer was programmed by Goko/Making Fun.

[managore]

Platinum instead of gold can also trigger an unwanted shuffle if Storytellered, if we are still caring about that.

Same deal with Grand Market vs Market, Bazaar vs Village, and so on, sometimes you don't want that extra card drawn.