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[Copernicus]

Simple stuff really -- cards that don't work quite as well together as they initially appear to, usually because of what is directly written on the card and ignored.


King's Court/Throne Room and Goons/Highway -- They have a "While in play" clause that means the +VP or -cost effects are not duplicated.  Still an ok combo, just not as insane as it could be.

Masquerade and Throne Room -- In 2-player games, you'll almost always get back the first card that was passed to the opponent.

Treasure Map and Scheme -- Treasure Map will always self-trash when played.

Alchemist and Mandarin/Mint -- Purchasing the Mandarin or Mint will get rid of the Potion which Alchemist requires to be in play.

[WanderingWinder]

Masquerade and Throne Room -- In 2-player games, you'll almost always get back the first card that was passed to the opponent.

...so just pass them your second-worst card to start with, and save your worst for the second pass.

As far as anti-combos, when I saw the thread title, highway+Bishop jumped to my mind.

[Lekkit]

Terminal Actions.

[chwhite]

First thing that came to mind is Golem/Tactician.  Golem/Trading Post is another potentially treacherous one.

[theory]

First thing that came to mind is Golem/Tactician.  Golem/Trading Post is another potentially treacherous one.

Golem/Tactician sometimes works: e.g., Golem into Tactician and Library (and then play another Tactician!), but I agree with your overall point.

[DG]

Someone once confidently played golem-ghost ship-possession against me. Now that was funny!

Another one I can remember was a game where both my opponent and myself had warehouses, young witch, lighthouses, and remake. By the time you'd played the cards out you had no cards left to achieve anything on any turn.

[michaeljb]

-Hoard and Treasury
-Highway/Bridge/Princess and Forge/Border Village/Haggler/Salvager/Bishop/Apprentice/Trader/etc
-hand-reducers (Warehouse/Cellar/Young Witch/Oasis/Hamlet/etc, continually playing them just reduces your hand to nothing, like DG described)
-Duration cards and opponent's Possession
-a very trim deck and anything that requires a discard; like playing an Envoy when you have less than 5, you'll end up with a net draw of less than its usual 4
-Border Village and non-terminal, non-Apprentice $5's
-buying Farmland to improve cheap cards
-Rabble followed by Pirate Ship/Thief/etc; actually have had this played against me, it was pretty funny
-stack of Margraves is pretty self-defeating
-Ironworks to gain Ironworks when the Kingdom does not contain Gardens or Vineyards; I've seen this quite a few times with more inexperienced players, seems like they think "ooh, I should buy one of those, free cards! For my free card, I'll take...ooh, I could get more free cards!"

[Kirian]

Golem with any mandatory trasher.  I suspect Remake would be even worse than TP, with Remodel and Upgrade at least not as bad.  Golem-Ambassador too.

Actually, Golem with a lot of cards.

Grand Market and Coppersmith or Counting House.

[Qvist]

Once I made the mistake and buyed Quarry with the intent to play Workshop/Ironworks/University to gain better cards.
I think you know why that didn't work.

[theory]

Once I made the mistake and buyed Quarry with the intent to play Workshop/Ironworks/University to gain better cards.
I think you know why that didn't work.

Nah, it works, you just need to throw a Black Market in there too

[Qvist]

That came to my mind too. But I was in desperate search. There wasn't any Black Market there.

[Kuildeous]

Masquerade and Throne Room -- In 2-player games, you'll almost always get back the first card that was passed to the opponent.

I'm not so sure about this one. Sure, you'll get that card back, but if you're passing two bad cards, then that means you get to trash two of your worst cards. On top of that, you'll be back to five cards in your hand. Granted, I'd be wary about playing Throne Room/Masquerade if I only have one bad card in my hand. I'd have to be pretty certain I have another bad card in my next four draws.

I'll jump on the bandwagon and say Golem + anything that is mandatory. I had to discard a Gold and something else [edit: and a Silver] thanks to a required Horse Trader. But Remake, Trading Post, and the like would be pretty horrible.

[Crispy]

Recently discovered playing a golem with trade routes after someone played a ghostship can leave you with no cards in your hand.  Happened to me and one other player.  Played a Golem after someone played a ghostship and drew two Trade Routes trashing the remaining two cards in my hand.

[Sprocket]

alchemist/treasury when opponent is playing minion.

[Deadlock39]

Yeah, michaeljb covered the more general category, but I screwed myself with Highway/Apprentice the other day.  The sad part was I think I could have won the game on the turn that crashed and burned if I had just made sure to draw my whole deck before playing out my Highways.

[barsooma]

Masquerade and Throne Room -- In 2-player games, you'll almost always get back the first card that was passed to the opponent.

I'm not so sure about this one. Sure, you'll get that card back, but if you're passing two bad cards, then that means you get to trash two of your worst cards. On top of that, you'll be back to five cards in your hand. Granted, I'd be wary about playing Throne Room/Masquerade if I only have one bad card in my hand. I'd have to be pretty certain I have another bad card in my next four draws.

I'll jump on the bandwagon and say Golem + anything that is mandatory. I had to discard a Gold and something else [edit: and a Silver] thanks to a required Horse Trader. But Remake, Trading Post, and the like would be pretty horrible.

So the worst possible thing that can happen is that you'll end up giving back whatever they passed you and only getting to trash one thing... Unless you have a high expectation that they will be forced to pass you a good card, this seems like a lot of worry over nothing.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

Tactician/Potion:  Without Black Market Potion is a dead card in a double-Tactician setup.

Caravan/Menagerie:  Makes getting all unique cards nigh impossible.

King's Court/Outpost: Goodbye KC, hello 3 card hands.

[Sprocket]

King's Court/Outpost: Goodbye KC, hello 3 card hands.

wouldn't this just be the same as playing Outpost without KC?  Outpost only effects how you draw at the end of the current turn, right?

[DG]

Most of the time you end up losing tempo if you try to remove copper from your deck with spice traders, moneylenders, loans, upgrades, trading posts, remakes, etc. after adding it with caches or ill gotten gains. Unless you've got your deck under very tight control you're usually working very hard to go nowhere.

Apothecary and lookout only half works. You start by trashing out the estates that are left on top of your deck by the apothecary. You then struggle to get value from the lookout since the apothecary always takes coppers into hand and leaves good cards on top of the deck.

Golem (or hunting party) with a navigator seems like a good idea for preparing the next hand. Quite often the navigator forces the a shuffle of a poor discard pile into a new draw deck, consigning you to a series of bad turns.

Minions and Possesion look as if they go together since you can keep discarding minion hands until you draw the possession. Unfortunately it means that you possess a 4 card hand and then your opponent gets to play a 5 card hand for their real turn.

Combining swindlers with cursing attacks starts to wrong when you swindle curses into copper.

Fortune tellers with mountebanks can backfire when you repeatedly put a curse into your opponent's next draw.

[Jimmmmm]

King's Court/Outpost: Goodbye KC, hello 3 card hands.

wouldn't this just be the same as playing Outpost without KC?  Outpost only effects how you draw at the end of the current turn, right?

Yeah I think how it would work would be both KC and Outpost stay out, then you have your Outpost turn and then discard them both and draw 5 as per usual.

[jotheonah]

When Possession is on the board, don't buy Ambassador or Governor.

(The first (and last!) time I watched someone play my Governor to gain both the Gold and the Silver I nearly cried.)

[Reyk]

Caravan + Library.

When Possession is on the board, don't buy Ambassador or Governor.

The Ambassador thing is too simplicistic as discussed already in other threads. As an interesting example I will give this game:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111007-113232-dbf0d6d8.html

WW with creative play almost got out the bad 2/5 start (an example too for interesting _non_ identical starting hands). Ambassador and a little luck nevertheless were key to success.

[GendoIkari]

Treasure Map and Scheme -- Treasure Map will always self-trash when played.

I bought Schemes in a Treasure Map game recently... I didn't make the mistake of trying to actually play the Treasure Maps though... so I just had wasted my buys.

[Lekkit]

I've had to explain numerous times that playing a Highway doesn't allow you to trash a Silver with a Remodel and then gain a Gold. Dunno if it's a not combo, but still. A lot of players seems to think that way the first time they see the two cards together.

Bridge or Pricess also works in this matter.

[jomini]

For a lot of these, they can actually be quite strong if you maximize the use of the cards (playing them for their full benefit for instance:


KC/outpost has some fine synergy in a very thinned deck. Take a simple deck where the only chaining is KC/KC/Outpost/Bishop deck.

Normal turn: I chain the KC's to get an outpost turn (KC/Outpost stays on the board) then play the bishop for 4 VP (crunching a silver) and buy a silver.

Outpost turn: I draw my entire deck KC, Bishop, and silver. I KC the Bishop and I net 4 VP (crunching a silver) and a silver.

Each turn I get 8 VP.

If you can't otherwise chain, two copies of KC can be used to chain so you can play useful actions on both turns. The strongest of these being the unstoppable pin from  KC/KC/outpost/masq where your entire deck goes poof the moment I play the combo.

Further having KC around makes outpost turns worthwhile. With good enough odds of hitting KC/most anything decent (lab, grand market, golem, adventurer, etc.) can make a 3 card hand much more worthwhile.

Highway/Bridge/Princess works quite well with trash-for benefit when you either have a lag between acquire (at low prices) and trashing (at high prices) or when you can bring the price of your gained card down to zero (e.g. forging a late game copper into a duchy is quite strong). Gaining a bunch of self replacing cards (pawn, pearl diver, village, wishing well, etc.) for zero cost means that they don't slow down your deck ... but can be fed to the forge whenever you need them to top off a province acquisition.

[Jimmmmm]

The strongest of these being the unstoppable pin from  KC/KC/outpost/masq where your entire deck goes poof the moment I play the combo.

A variation on KC/KC/Goons/Masquerade??!!

Mind = blown.

[rspeer]

Caravan + Library.

When Possession is on the board, don't buy Ambassador or Governor.

The Ambassador thing is too simplicistic as discussed already in other threads. As an interesting example I will give this game:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111007-113232-dbf0d6d8.html

WW with creative play almost got out the bad 2/5 start (an example too for interesting _non_ identical starting hands). Ambassador and a little luck nevertheless were key to success.

Yeah, Amb/Possession is not so much a nombo as it is a game of chicken in a lot of cases. You probably can't get away with not buying an Ambassador. You probably can't get away with not buying Possession once Ambassadors are out. So you'd better get some trashers to trash your Ambassador before it becomes dangerous.

[jomini]

The strongest of these being the unstoppable pin from  KC/KC/outpost/masq where your entire deck goes poof the moment I play the combo.

A variation on KC/KC/Goons/Masquerade??!!

Mind = blown.

Yeah, there are a lot of variants on that one. The most wild one I know that works is TR/Minion/outpost/masq. In the simple case your hand consists of TR, TR, Minion, Outpost, Masq. Play minion for 4, then play TR -> TR -> outpost (stays out with a TR) -> Masq (x2). This leaves the opponent with 2 cards and in your outpost turn you play minion -> TR -> Masq and destroy those two cards. I like the outpost/KC variant because it can't be stopped by reactions as nothing in the setup is an official attack, also it is fast enough that it is viable in 3 player (the more fortunate player gets 4 cards to pay from the player upstream until his deck begins to be directly attacked).


Masq is actually the only require card in the combo. You need a way to play more dead masqs (where you have nothing to pass) than the opponent has cards (obviously helped by hand reduction attacks). Outpost can be used creatively to double the number of dead masq hits, and of course KC and TR work wonders, but there are a few other ways get to those dead hits (golem with controlled discard or native village shenanigans).

For a lot of options, you are further ahead ignoring the pin or just whacking them around with your own hand reducers or whacking them around with your own masqs for expensive cards, or mucking around with duration cards (e.g. tactician, haven)  to end the game before you you get obliterated ... but when they work, pins like these are insanely effective.

[dondon151]

Wait, I don't quite follow how you can get more dead Masq hits by using Golem or Native Village. When you Golem into Masq, you need to both not have any cards in hand and not have any cards in the deck or discard pile to not pass any cards... which means that you can only play one Masq. If you use Native Village, you can reduce your handsize, but you can still only play one Masq.

The only ways I can think of playing a Masq multiple times in a turn that yields no cards in hand and no cards in deck or discard are TR, KC, and Outpost. Maybe I'm missing something obvious?

[Thisisnotasmile]

Golem -> NV and Masq (only cards in deck). Play Masq first drawing and passing nothing, NV second picking up a Masq from the NV mat. Play Masq.

[dondon151]

Oh, derp, I keep forgetting that you can play cards that you reveal from Golem in either order, and not the order in which you reveal them.

[jomini]

Wait, I don't quite follow how you can get more dead Masq hits by using Golem or Native Village. When you Golem into Masq, you need to both not have any cards in hand and not have any cards in the deck or discard pile to not pass any cards... which means that you can only play one Masq. If you use Native Village, you can reduce your handsize, but you can still only play one Masq.

The only ways I can think of playing a Masq multiple times in a turn that yields no cards in hand and no cards in deck or discard are TR, KC, and Outpost. Maybe I'm missing something obvious?

Well take the simple case: I have a hand consisting of golem, KC, hamlet, masq, masq. I hamlet away a masq and a KC for actions. Play the golem, now I can KC the dead masq left in hand 3 times and play the other masq (pulled by the golem) once dead for a net kill of 4 cards.

This still isn't enough for a true pin, but with a strong enough draw engine, some villages, and a hand reducer attack (margrave and ghost ship being particularly nice, but it can even work well enough with something like cutpurse), it can be game over regardless of the point spread.


Another shot is a hand reduction attack (e.g. militia), a draw engine, a discarder (e.g. hamlet, secret chamber), golem, masq, and native villages. So you draw your entire deck and discard  golem, masq, masq, and a copy of your discarder. Now you play 4 NVs in a row and place those 4 cards on the mat. Play your hand reduction attack (opponent has 3 cards), discard a NV and a masq, and then play through the rest of your deck till you have nothing left in hand except a golem. Play golem then a dead masq, then bring everything from the mat back to hand. Opponent has two cards which you can kill by discarding two masqs and goleming them.

Obviously working without TR or KC is much more difficult than having either of them, but it can be done. I'd avoid trying to set this up unless there is some great engine factory and I've already fallen way behind in normal scoring (e.g. opponent has 3 colonies to my 0), but it is a marginally viable Hail Mary when you lack any other option. Even with possible substitutions, I'd say this is around a 2.5 card combo and is rare enough that I work with it more for the fun of figuring out how to do it rather than it being dominant.

[meshuggah42]

Young Witch with Scheme as bane: couple of days ago this was the setup, he bought YW, I bought a single Scheme and kept returning it to the deck. Result: 0 Curses gained.

[mischiefmaker]

I can't count how many times I've gotten a cursing attack, then thought to myself, "Self, how could I play this cursing attack more often? Ooh, I know, I can trash the rest of my deck! Hey-o, Bishop!"

Bonus stupid points if the cursing attack happens to be terminal draw.

[Razzishi]

Caravan/Laboratory + Jack/Library/Watchtower - Don't waste your time drawing cards two different ways when one hinders the other.

Warehouse/Cellar + Vault - You can cycle your deck faster in order to play Vault more often....but you don't get to hit the coin amount you really want to.

Noble Brigand (or Thief) in a Tunnel game featuring other good enablers - Sure, there might be a lot of Gold to steal, but you might just give them more Gold instead.

Minion + Bank - Maybe if you had a bunch of villages and Black Markets?

Adventurer + Cache - I missed 6 for Gold; Cache is good enough, right?

Moneylender/Spice Merchant/Loan + Stables - If I cycle my deck faster, I can trash my Copper even faster, and then....er.....

Oasis + Chapel - At least, as an opener.  Might be viable after Chapel becomes a dead draw.

Baron + Salvager - Maybe if you really want more Estates to Salvage and really need multiples buys every single turn.

Menagerie + Coppersmith/Counting House - Menagerie usually gets hung up on Copper; it doesn't need encouragement in that regard.

Chapel + Gardens - everyone else thought it was too obvious to warrant mentioning, or I'm blind.

[dondon151]

I remember a 4p game where 2 went Council Room, 2 went Library.

The Library players threw their hands up in frustration because they'd end up starting their turns with 7 cards in hand.

[Forge!!!]

Torturers are pretty bad when your opponent is using JOAT. Just had a game where my opponent had 3 torturers used in one turn, I discarded down to my one card, got a curse with the 3rd torturer, drew back up to 11, trashed the curse and bought a colony.

[ecq]

Golem has been mentioned a few times.  Here's a non-obvious one that bit me the other day: Golem-Wharf

"But," you think, "Set up correctly, that would give me 13 cards and 5 buys every turn, guaranteed!"

It's the "Set up correctly" part that's broken.  It's virtually impossible to set up and keep going.  Wharf doesn't get discarded until the end of the next turn.  So, in order to keep this running, you need 4x Wharf.  Then you need enough Golems that can you're very likely to find one in any given set of 9 cards.  So, you're loading up your deck with terminals.  Not great.

But that's fine, you have that awesome 13 card hand.  Guess what it contains?  Probably at least one Wharf and a couple of Golems.  The Golems can't get to the Wharf/Wharves in your hand, and you can't play both because they're terminal.  So what's the remedy?  Buy more Wharves?  Ultimately that's just more dead cards to draw.  Buy Villages?  That just dilutes the engine.

While you're pondering the situation, your opponent buys the last Province, because it took you so long for you to accumulate all those Wharves and Golems.

[jomini]

Golem/warf works really well with any discard. Yes it requires 4 wharves, but you need 10 coin off a warf hand to buy 2 in a go - that ain't exactly hard. After that cellar, warehouse, young witch, hamlet, secret chamber, vault, horse traders, oasis, embassy, and inn will all allow you to drop wharves into your discard and increase your odds of hitting the cards you really want. Yeah, sometimes you will hit your discarder (or an enabling village) instead of a wharf, but that should end up being fairly rare.

So yeah, this is bad with no assistance, but with a lot of boards it can be quite strong.

[WanderingWinder]

Golem/warf works really well with any discard. Yes it requires 4 wharves, but you need 10 coin off a warf hand to buy 2 in a go - that ain't exactly hard. After that cellar, warehouse, young witch, hamlet, secret chamber, vault, horse traders, oasis, embassy, and inn will all allow you to drop wharves into your discard and increase your odds of hitting the cards you really want. Yeah, sometimes you will hit your discarder (or an enabling village) instead of a wharf, but that should end up being fairly rare.

So yeah, this is bad with no assistance, but with a lot of boards it can be quite strong.

But adding these extra things makes it even slooooooower, and its problem is that it's too slow in the first place. You have to compete with the fast, strong, BM/Wharf here.

[jomini]

I'm not sure how adding in a couple of purchases makes it that much slower. Cellar, for instance is a 2 coin card that you can spam buy off any 2, 7 or 10 coin hand without too much trouble. Granted, my play is biased towards colonies, but cellar/golem/wharf was pretty blindingly fast to 4 colonies.

[WanderingWinder]

I'm not sure how adding in a couple of purchases makes it that much slower. Cellar, for instance is a 2 coin card that you can spam buy off any 2, 7 or 10 coin hand without too much trouble. Granted, my play is biased towards colonies, but cellar/golem/wharf was pretty blindingly fast to 4 colonies.

Well, a couple purchases makes it a couple turns slower, in general. But the big thing is that you need: a purchase for potion, a purchase for golem, another purchase for golem, an extra wharf or two, and a cellar or two... it just takes a lot of time to do all that, when BM/Wharf is pretty blindingly fast too.

[yuma]

Just experienced a Bishop/Highway turn where my +5 highways made just about anything I trashed only worth a one Victory point. That was a little frustrating, especially since I only realized it about halfway through the game...

[Dubdubdubdub]

Ironworks, Quarry.
Man, I thought I was going to rock this game, with Nobles on board. Quarry would make them cost only 4, so I could pick them up with my Ironworks, netting me +1 card, +1 action. And so cheap and easy to set up!


Until you finally get them together in your hand and realize you don't play your Quarry until after the action phase. Sigh.

I'd like to try this with a Black Market, to play my Quarry earlier. But then I'd need +actions, requiring another village-like card, making this a *very* slow engine for little effect.

[Qvist]

Once I made the mistake and buyed Quarry with the intent to play Workshop/Ironworks/University to gain better cards.
I think you know why that didn't work.

Ironworks, Quarry.
Man, I thought I was going to rock this game, with Nobles on board. Quarry would make them cost only 4, so I could pick them up with my Ironworks, netting me +1 card, +1 action. And so cheap and easy to set up!


Until you finally get them together in your hand and realize you don't play your Quarry until after the action phase. Sigh.

I'd like to try this with a Black Market, to play my Quarry earlier. But then I'd need +actions, requiring another village-like card, making this a *very* slow engine for little effect.

Two guys, same mistake. At least I know I'm not the only who made the mistake. Thanks for that

[jotheonah]

Ambassador and Ill-Gotten Gains, if not done carefully, is a good way to give yourself a pile of curses, which, while hilarious, is not the best idea.

[dondon151]

Ironworks, Quarry.
Man, I thought I was going to rock this game, with Nobles on board. Quarry would make them cost only 4, so I could pick them up with my Ironworks, netting me +1 card, +1 action. And so cheap and easy to set up!

I did something similar once with Talisman instead of Ironworks. I thought that I could pick up 2 Nobles for 1 with both Talisman and Quarry in play, but conveniently neglected the fine print on Talisman...

[GendoIkari]

Ironworks, Quarry.
Man, I thought I was going to rock this game, with Nobles on board. Quarry would make them cost only 4, so I could pick them up with my Ironworks, netting me +1 card, +1 action. And so cheap and easy to set up!

I did something similar once with Talisman instead of Ironworks. I thought that I could pick up 2 Nobles for 1 with both Talisman and Quarry in play, but conveniently neglected the fine print on Talisman...

Don't feel bad, I just spend about 30 seconds thinking about that trying to figure out why it wouldn't work...

[jotheonah]

Yeah, I seem to have selective amnesia for that clause on Talisman. Oh, there are Great Halls and Islands? Who wouldn't buy a Talisman? Oh, NV/Bridge? Talisman would make that so much better cause you can grab two Provinces at a time.

[glasser]

Yeah, I seem to have selective amnesia for that clause on Talisman. Oh, there are Great Halls and Islands? Who wouldn't buy a Talisman? Oh, NV/Bridge? Talisman would make that so much better cause you can grab two Provinces at a time.

Did that in an in-person game recently, with Talisman, Ironworks, and Silk Road.  Played copper and three Talismans, got myself four Silk Roads. We realized my mistake a couple turns later, at which point the game state was entirely unreconstructable.

In retrospect that's not even the best strategy anyway, since Silk Roads that are only pairing with themselves and estates are unlikely to be worth as much as duchies.

[Julle]

In one game I though: "Loan is pretty much the only trasher, got to buy it. Maybe one terminal for a second buy. Hey, time to try something different, I'll buy Bureaucrat."

Few turns later I had both of them in same hand: "Great,  he has a victory card in hand and have to put it back to his deck, now it's time for Loan..."

[philosophyguy]

Wharf and Philosopher's Stone. Not only is P.S. not a great card, but Wharf makes it even worse than normal.

[Epoch]

In one game I though: "Loan is pretty much the only trasher, got to buy it. Maybe one terminal for a second buy. Hey, time to try something different, I'll buy Bureaucrat."

Few turns later I had both of them in same hand: "Great,  he has a victory card in hand and have to put it back to his deck, now it's time for Loan..."

Um.

You're aware that Loan goes through YOUR deck, not your opponent's?

EDIT:  Aaaaaaaand, I'm stupid!  Well, nice to know that I'd have done exactly the same thing you did!

[olneyce]

More evidence on the nombo nature of Governor and Possession.  It's even better because Tactician is on the board.  So my first play of Possession got me access to his whole deck.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-140549-d3aa53ed.html

[Axxle]

More evidence on the nombo nature of Governor and Possession.  It's even better because Tactician is on the board.  So my first play of Possession got me access to his whole deck.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/23/game-20111223-140549-d3aa53ed.html

That looks like a Combo or a Bad Counter to me as opposed to a Nombo.  I think we're using Nombo to describe cards that one person shouldn't buy since they conflict with each other.  If you had bought a lot of governors and played them for cards right before the possession, that would be a very good Combo.

[Zakharov]

Simple stuff really -- cards that don't work quite as well together as they initially appear to, usually because of what is directly written on the card and ignored.


King's Court/Throne Room and Goons/Highway -- They have a "While in play" clause that means the +VP or -cost effects are not duplicated.  Still an ok combo, just not as insane as it could be.

King's Court/Goons is actually an amazing combo a lot of the time. King's Court makes massive engine decks fairly easy to set up, and KC-Goons gives you enough buys to take advantage of all the VP token gain from more Goons.

[Davio]

Loan and Fool's Gold.

I'm terrible as is with FG, but Loan somehow makes it worse.
In my head I'm trashing Coppers. In reality, I'm discarding FG's.

[jotheonah]

For that matter, Loan and Loan.  No matter how much treasure I have in my deck if i have even 2 Loans they will hit each other at least 50% of the time. It's mind-boggling.

[chwhite]

Minion and Tunnel.  You think you're going to discard the Tunnels with Minion and draw into Gold, but it's just as likely you'll have to discard all your Gold and draw into a hand full of Tunnels.

In general, the only Treasures I actually want in my Minion decks are Loan and Platinum.  I guess Potion sometimes as well.

[GendoIkari]

Oh man I just had one of these yesterday, and thought about this thread. Glad it was bumped!

Moneylender / Duke.

Not that it necessarily sounds like those would work well together, but for some reason I tried it. After getting 5 Duchies, I still lost to a player who accidentally bought a Curse on turn 1, and who bought a Duke before buying a single Duchy.

[ftl]

Minion and Tunnel.  You think you're going to discard the Tunnels with Minion and draw into Gold, but it's just as likely you'll have to discard all your Gold and draw into a hand full of Tunnels.

In general, the only Treasures I actually want in my Minion decks are Loan and Platinum.  I guess Potion sometimes as well.

I think Minion-tunnel works fine, doesn't it? In sims, at least, a Minion/Tunnel strategy beats up pure Minion. Minion-tunnel doesn't aim for a traditional lean minion deck, but to get boatloads of golds. So if you get a hand full of golds, don't play your Minion, just buy a province...

[chwhite]

Minion and Tunnel.  You think you're going to discard the Tunnels with Minion and draw into Gold, but it's just as likely you'll have to discard all your Gold and draw into a hand full of Tunnels.

In general, the only Treasures I actually want in my Minion decks are Loan and Platinum.  I guess Potion sometimes as well.

I think Minion-tunnel works fine, doesn't it? In sims, at least, a Minion/Tunnel strategy beats up pure Minion. Minion-tunnel doesn't aim for a traditional lean minion deck, but to get boatloads of golds. So if you get a hand full of golds, don't play your Minion, just buy a province...

Well, sure, if Minion is the only relevant Action and there's nothing you can add to it.  That's quite rare.

[ratxt1]

tactician/secret chamber without support.

You think you'll be able to pull off an awsome double tactician strategy, but than you realize after you leave the card for the tactician the secret chamber only gives you 7 money

[Axxle]

tactician/secret chamber without support.

You think you'll be able to pull off an awsome double tactician strategy, but than you realize after you leave the card for the tactician the secret chamber only gives you 7 money

This would be great in the "What you think you did" thread.

[DG]

I think you mean tactician/secret chamber/tactician. Tactician+secret chamber hasn't got problems.

[ratxt1]

I think you mean tactician/secret chamber/tactician. Tactician+secret chamber hasn't got problems.

yea, this is what I meant. Didn't know how to really word this, since tactician and secret chamber work fine together, it's just the double tactician/secret chamber doesn't work.

Here is the game that prompted this post.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120212-115414-03150c39.html

When I first saw this board i was like, ugh ambassador and a 5/2 split (if I get a 5/2 I almost always try to play a non-ambassador strategy). Let's see they're is tactician and secret chamber, wow that will work great you can set up double tactician really fast and than be getting a province every turn. Why isn't tactician/secret chamber a top opening again? I soon found out on turn 10. I forgot to count the secret chamber.

[jotheonah]

I did manage to pull this off in a game with Bazaar though. Pretty much any action that will get you anymore money and a +action will save the strategy.

[O]

I did manage to pull this off in a game with Bazaar though. Pretty much any action that will get you anymore money and a +action will save the strategy.

Or caravan (turn before)/lab

[Jimmmmm]

Just discovered Double Tactician + Vineyard. I had bought only Action cards (mostly Fishing Villages, Festivals, Margraves and Tacticians [3 actually]) and had a wonderful Double Tactician deck going on, but my opponent had an early lead with Provinces, so I decided to leave them to him and get into the Vineyards. So I bought a couple of Potions and very quickly had an "I'm such an idiot" moment when I realised I couldn't play a Tactician and buy a Vineyard in the same turn. I managed to get Vineyards up to 9 each, but only had 3 of them by the time my opponent had bought out the Provinces.

[Epoch]

For the double-tactician/secret chamber thing, you really just need a single Silver, right?  Hardly seems difficult.

[Taco Lobster]

For the double-tactician/secret chamber thing, you really just need a single Silver, right?  Hardly seems difficult.

No, because you can't play the Silver and Tactician without a Black Market.  You need a +$ action of some type.

[Epoch]

No, because you can't play the Silver and Tactician without a Black Market.  You need a +$ action of some type.

Duh.  Yes.  Hence the entire point of the secret chamber.  Somehow, in my mind, you could choose not to discard the Silver.  My bad.

[jotheonah]

Here's one I never happened to notice before: Trading Post - King's Court

What I thought would happen - Trash the other three cards in my hand and gain 3 silvers.

What actually happened - Trashed 2 cards, Gained a Silver. Trashed the other card and the Silver, Gained a Silver. Trashed the Silver - Whoops, you didn't trash two cards? No Silver for you!

[GendoIkari]

Here's one I never happened to notice before: Trading Post - King's Court

What I thought would happen - Trash the other three cards in my hand and gain 3 silvers.

What actually happened - Trashed 2 cards, Gained a Silver. Trashed the other card and the Silver, Gained a Silver. Trashed the Silver - Whoops, you didn't trash two cards? No Silver for you!

Hey, that's 3/4 as good as a Chapel!

[Nakamura]

Horn Of Plenty and Bank. Just played this and it gave me a headache which to play first in the buy phase each time they "collided".

[eHalcyon]

Horn Of Plenty and Bank. Just played this and it gave me a headache which to play first in the buy phase each time they "collided".

Shouldn't be that hard?  Just figure out if you'd rather have $1 extra to buy or the ability to pick up a card worth $1 more with HoP.

[blueblimp]

Is Loan/Tunnel a nombo? The idea: trash coppers with the Loans, while discarding Tunnels to get Gold, then proceed to use the Golds to buy Provinces. The reality: the golds don't come as fast as expected, the loans then start hitting the golds, and you start seeing hands like "Gold, Gold, Loan, Tunnel, Tunnel", which isn't good for much.

[DG]

Loan/Tunnel probably just needs the right assistance, courtyard perhaps. Horn of Plenty with bank is ok, certainly compared to smugglers/workshop with bank.

[ChocophileBenj]

Shanty Town + any terminal non-drawer card !

While talking about Throne Room + King's Court, I will add with them (if not already done) : secret chamber and counting house.
And of course, Watchtower+Library ; if you play Throne or KC before them, this is only to draw one single more card !

And according to me, loan/tunnel looks pretty nice. Especially when you have a faster way to trash your coppers... I bought once two loans to get them ! Because tunnel is, and will remain the best source of gold, as long as there is a way to get gold. Plus it deters opponent from buy Militia/Goons and so on...

[WanderingWinder]

Shanty Town + any terminal non-drawer card !

While talking about Throne Room + King's Court, I will add with them (if not already done) : secret chamber and counting house.
And of course, Watchtower+Library ; if you play Throne or KC before them, this is only to draw one single more card !

And according to me, loan/tunnel looks pretty nice. Especially when you have a faster way to trash your coppers... I bought once two loans to get them ! Because tunnel is, and will remain the best source of gold, as long as there is a way to get gold. Plus it deters opponent from buy Militia/Goons and so on...

Apparently it is a nombo, DG.
It's not very good, without more help anyway.