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[Archetype]

I started rereading the thread, but stopped because, man, this game is huge. So, I'm looking more at the end of Day 4 up until now and responding/pointing out anything I see.

I had some dice stolen.

lies!

Yes, it's an arch/pps scumteam. Or if this is true I guess it's BA/ww, but that doesn't make as much sense.

Why would you think I was lying?

liopoil still hasn't answered this.

Okay found it:

I don't really care about the order for claiming.

I'm a Tactician. If I didn't roll or play any dice the previous day, the number of dice I roll the following is doubled. I may also play or store second die.

Fun fact: This is the exact same role I had the first game

Do you have the same QT as Mail-Mi's?  Can you reveal how many dice you rolled those times? (Unless there is a compelling reason not to.)  I'm a little confused why there's no mid ones.

Okay, today's is odd only.  So 9 and 1.. no 3,5,7, 11 in how many dice?  Possible, not all that unlikely unless he rolled a lot.  What was Mail-Mi's monster?  Only first instance of roll counts.  BA starts playing 5, Mail-Mi plays 11 and 3.  Maybe here he figured all rolls needed to be played anyway, so might as well play a low one, so stored some ones that were better than 3? 

I don't know, just weird that it had the same pattern both times.

Does that description mean you can play two rolls and store two rolls on the double day?  Or is it an exclusive or?

I didn't think anything was weird with my dice. I rolled 4 dice (so, and got 1 9 1 4 2 10 10 12. When mail-mi rolled, he rolled 4 (so, and got 11 1 3 11 1 1 3 3. Though actually, now that I look back, mail-mi getting all odds is a little strange. I did save the 12, but I sacrificed the 11 that mail-mi saved to the dice vendor.

I wasn't insinuating anything... just wondering, because you hardly ever mention arch, and he's your partner if you're scum.

Why are you bothering to mention repeatedly how I will learn something if I am town then? I guess it doesn't matter much, it's just weird.

I rolled two 8s, exactly the same as yesterday... ugh. Play: 8

I could be swayed to vote WW/BA but not by you, only hydrad, who I trust to not have an anti town agenda.

Pretty much the same with me. Just when I was getting ready to vote for pps/arch, I realize that Witherweaver has been pushing that the dice destroyer is factional and also came up with a crazy pps dice destroyer theory, all while he is the only player who could reasonably be the dice destroyer! So I too am torn.

Uh, I've been fighting the idea that the dice destroyed is factional.  if I had the ability, why would I want to oppose people thinking it's factional?

WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM

I rolled two 8s, exactly the same as yesterday... ugh. Play: 8

This is ridiculously scummy. You really had no stored odds that you could've played?

The only thing that's really stopping me from going gungho PPS/Lio is how quiet Arch has been since Day 4.  Reminds me of WoT, where he sat back and let town mess up until he could just come in and tell them who to lynch.

Dude. I've been V/LA. I've considered asking for a replacement since I'll be gone this week, but instead I've decided to stay up late and put in the effort to try and win the game for Town.


Ok. Let's break this down. There are two possible scumteam: WW/BA or PPS/liopoil. Here's a couple of things to look at:


1) The Reward: This really only applies to WW/BA and is what links them together at all. They claim the reward is "Two random Town players are made Masons. The Masons, and two random other players, are then put into a QT. The Masons are given pseudonyms to speak under." The scum narrative for the reward is "Two Mafia players are put into a QT with two Town players. No one knows anyone's alignment and the Mafia are allowed to speak under pseudonyms". I originally thought the second possibility was unlikely, but after seeing two of the biggest supporters for a WW/BA lynch flip Town, I'm having second thoughts. If we're running with the second theory, scum have two options going into the following day when people start asking who was a part of the QT. They can lie and say they aren't Bob or Alice. This would result in the other two QT members claiming and assume that Bob and Alice are both scum since they didn't claim. This would make the other two QT members Masons and have some talk in the QT to go on to find scum. Or, scum could just claim being Bob and Alice. If they do, they may catch some heat for having pseudonyms. So, they could claim Masons instead. Maybe they thought Hydrad had figured out who they were, so they decided it would be best to just say they were Masons. Also, the fact that Ichimaru (one of the QT members) died and that WW initially denied being a part of the QT point more to WW/BA being scum. However, the first possibility seems more like a reward than the other. But, last nights reward was sort of weird that the second scenario isn't too farfetched.

2) The Powers: PPS and liopoil powers are both confirmed. I'm still wary of some sort of coordination between scum!PPS and scum!liopoil to cover up PPS's power, but I think(?) all of those theories have been debunked. None of liopoil's targets have been 'convenient' so to speak, but PPS saying that he hasn't used his power until last night has just got to be a lie. Swindler makes sense as a dice stealing role, but I'm pretty sure his role has been confirmed. I believe that BA is what he says he is. I find him much scummier than WW, but WW's claim itself is much scummier than his. Simply, we have one unclaimed "Dice Destroyer" most-likely-scum power and WW's power is unconfirmed. AND WW was the first person to coin the term "Dice Destroyer". AND WW's role name, Saboteur, sounds exactly like that: a dice destroyer. I wonder where WW came up with that term... There is the fact that the dice destroyer may be factional, but I find that to be a very unlikely factional power.

3) The Die Rolls:
Compiled below with when they played it.
Note: Day 3 the order of when people played was relatively randomly decided after the first three.

BA:
D1 - 12 (second)
D2 - 5 (first)
D3 - 8 (seventh)
D4 - 2 (second)
D5 - None

liopoil:
D1 - 8 (third)
D2 - 6 (tenth)
D3 - 7 (second)
D4 - None
D5 - 8 (fourth)

Witherweaver:
D1 - 8 (fifth)
D2 - 12 (ninth)
D3 - 12 (fifth)
D4 - None
D5 - 5 (second)

PPS:
D1 - 8 (sixth)
D2 - 8 (eighth)
D3 - 9 (sixth)
D4 - None
D5 - 9 (first)

Archetype:
D1 - None
D2 - 11, 3 (second)
D3 - 9 (tenth)
D4 - None
D5 - 9, 1 (third)

Hydrad:
D1 - 7 (eleventh)
D2 - 1 (eleventh)
D3 - 7 (fourth)
D4 - 2 (first)
D5 - None

I think scum wants to play near the beginning of each day. So, very protown for WW to playing such high numbers. liopoil and PPS are in that safe "not too protown and not too scummy" area and BA is fairly scummy for his rolls. PPS did roll all 6 dice that one day, which is scummy.

4) The Play: Arguably, how they've played is what matters the most. The die rolls and claims do provide facts, but since roles are assigned independent of alignment and die rolls are luck-based, how they use their vote and their words are what I have to go on the most. I'll be looking at their behavior and nothing else.

PPS: Very, very scummy. His vote jumps around all the time and he changes his reads very quickly. Reads perfectly like scum going from day to day trying to get the easiest mislynch. However, he's been so scummy to the point where it's started to come full circle where he really could be Town because he has been so scummy. He also kind of reads like a SK to me.

liopoil: Very much so in the background. Ash hit the nail on the head with his very acti-lurking behavior and it's a definite scum tactic. He's been trying to get PPS lynched for a while, which could easily be him trying to soft bus. I don't find him as scummy as PPS, but they make sense as partners.

WW: I've had a townread on him since I subbed in. He's been very protown with how he's approached voting records and seems genuine in trying to scumhunt and analyze every possibility. I'm very confused why Ichimaru Gin instead of himself was killed the night after he claimed, but Ichimaru was pretty firmly Town in my mind too.

BA: Very classic scum play. He lead the mislynches on both chairs and ash and changes his mind a lot just like PPS. However, he has put a lot of work into trying to puzzle everything out and analyze things just like WW. I find him a bit Townier than PPS, but still scummier than liopoil.

--

Rereading a bit; thought I'd pull this up for some Voltaire wagon analysis:

I agree with a reroll on chairs.

Looking back at the end of D1, trying to formulate some reads:

I don't see how this isn't town Volt here.  In Greater Idea he stood out to me as quite not-town Volt.. it really seemed like he was fabricating his town play.  I don't see that here, he just seems like regular Volt.  He could have learned from that, but I can't imagine voting for him today.

Would scum be this blatant about their partner? I could see someone like ash doing something like this, but not WW. I have a townread on him for this and his claim.

- I agree that there isn't really anything scummy about voltaire's play in general, however, I do have a scumread on him. Two reasons: 1) he rolled a 5, the lowest of everyone, and 2) The way he acted in regard to his vote on me was a bit strange.

Town points for this, especially considering the back and forth between him and Voltaire earlier in the day. I do find it scummy that despite expressing that read, he didn't end up on his wagon. So a slight scum read on him.

I'm not sure I follow why there's a big Voltaire wagon.  What am I missing?

This reads to me as scum logging onto to see that his partner has a big wagon on him. I don't think I understand what's going on enough with these whole dice changing scores thing to justify giving a scumread to chairs. But that's what I thought in game 1 when he played a 1. He did seem like his normal jokey non-hesistant town!self earlier D1, but I still have a scumread on him.

yuma looks like town, so that's good.

Ichi's most recent posts are also on the townier side.

How about vote: Voltaire? He just feels like scum. Will look at this in more detail after the weekend.

Oh yeah, that's L-2.

Getting a strong town vibe from this post; it just doesn't read as scum trying to bus his partner. Also, while following along in the speccy, I had a townread on faust (which is rare - I always think faust is scum). When I subbed in and reread, I still had a townread on him and voted for him. And with the dice distribution thing, he's easily my top town read.

Vote: Voltaire

That is L-1.

This, however, does read like scum trying to bus their partner. Especially with the follow up post:

Voltaire is way outside his meta. I believe it unlikely he and ashersky are partners so his flip will be largely informative.

I also find him suspicious D1 for his confusion on his own claim. That just screams scum forgetting what they fakeclaimed. Scumread here.

vote: voltaire

ashersky's surprise hammer! I'm leaning scum because I can't think of what town!ash could gain from this. I can see where he'd do it just to see what would happen but, like someone else said, I could see ash doing that as either alignment. Light scumread.

vote: voltaire

Wait, was that the hammer!?

Dude, fake surprise is scummy.

This is not "fake surprise". So you just hammered without giving Voltaire a chance to claim, without warning--this early in the day.

Getting a town vibe from this. Genuinely reads as the model townie freaking out when the day is cut short from a quickhammer. Also been getting just a general townie read from him that I can't really explain.

Sorry two last nooby questions. If 8 votes are reached is the person lynched right away or does he have time for last words to get out of it.

Also f I die but town still wins later does that count as a win for me still?

Hydrad seems sort of oblivious to what's going on. Town read for him.

Sorry two last nooby questions. If 8 votes are reached is the person lynched right away or does he have time for last words to get out of it.

Also f I die but town still wins later does that count as a win for me still?

He dies, but if the thread is not locked immediately, he can still say last words. Typically, from what I have seen from my previous game, we allow the player a chance to claim before lynching them. This is only my second game though.

I believe that if you die then, yes, assuming you are town, if town wins, you also win.

BA seems more concerned with the monster's results than the outcome of the lynch. So, slight town for that.

Vote Count 1.7 - Final

Ichimaru Gin (1): Voltaire
Beyond Awesome (1): Witherweaver
Voltaire (eight): mail-mi, Hydrad, Ichimaru Gin, XerxesPraelor, Beyond Awesome, faust, pingpongsam, ashersky
Witherweaver (1): chairs
pingpongsam (1): yuma
mail-mi (1): liopoil

not voting (1): BoxOfDog

With 14 alive, it took 8 to lynch.

Voltaire has been lynched. He was a Mafia Roleblocker.

I'm not putting a vote quite yet - I'll wait for some response, but I'll have one down before I leave tomorrow.

[liopoil]

This is outdated now, but then I thought that you/pps stole from BA and were taking advantage of it canceling out my giving to BA to claim to have been stolen from. But that doesn't matter now.

Why would I have a stored odd? You sure didn't, neither did plenty of others.

[Witherweaver]

I didn't claim to not be in the QT at first.  Hydrad was asking if there was another QT that did he wasn't in, so he asked people to claim that. And, Mason claim couldn't have been in response to things (like Hydrated/Ichi finding out who we are), because I said it right away.

Arch is doing a much better job of sounding town than either PPS/Lio.

[pingpongsam]

As one of the most dice poor people this entire game I managed to have a stored odd this day...

[pingpongsam]

Arch is doing a much better job of sounding town than either PPS/Lio.

Agreed, which leads me towards a BA/WW scum team.

[Witherweaver]

Arch is doing a much better job of sounding town than either PPS/Lio.

Agreed, which leads me towards a BA/WW scum team.

Haha

[pingpongsam]

Everyone likes to talk about how utterly scummy I have been yet the last 2 townies to die were quite certain I was town amongst the remaining. Why do you think that is?

[Witherweaver]

Everyone likes to talk about how utterly scummy I have been yet the last 2 townies to die were quite certain I was town amongst the remaining. Why do you think that is?

Here's Faust:

Okay, so let's see whose plays here make sense as scum:

ash: Trying to push a lynch when it's pretty clear that it won't go through? Claiming to have been visited by the Love Doctor and having done strange things that could easily be viewed as scummy for no reason? I think if he really was scum, he would have somehow tried to get PPS lynched by now. Especially if he's loved. And even if PPS is his partner. Also, how is the VT claim scummy again? I think scum would have preferred a fake claim. If scum!ash is just going to claim VT, why did he refuse to claim on D3?

PPS: His D1 play seriously makes no sense at all for scum. It's not grabbing towncred to claim an anti-town role. Also, do you think he was indeed targeted by "the dice destroyer" N0? Because that would kinda imply that he's not that role himself. Which means his partner has it, which means his partner has to be ash. And ash's not scum. Add in the way he claimed today - what reason would scum possibly have to make a full turnaround on how their role works? Add in that his posts when he first claims imply that his role actually works the way it does (he says, IIRC, that his role gives out "1d12". In the OP, it's stated that 1d12 means a random number between 1 and 12).

liopoil: Used his power in a very pro-town way so far. He is super hardcore tunneling PPS, which could be an epic bus (unlikely). If it's not, then that implies that he's not partners with PPS, which means his partner has to be ash, and ash is town.

Arch: Actually the one whose play fits a scum narrative best, lurking, sheeping claimed Masons, not providing much content of his own. But there is no partner for him, so I just have to assume he's anti-town town.

Essentially centered around you not being able to be dice destroyer, which I for one am not convinced of, and everyone else seems to think it's factional anyway, mooting the argument.  His town read on you is essentially because of your crazy claim.  Also what made me not want to vote for you yesterday.  Ash and Faust being town puts you way way way back on the table.

I don't really know why Ash thought you were town (hard to understand much of what he did).  I think towards the end he was pretty tunneled on me/BA.  I wouldn't say "quite certain", though.  He was actually voting for you at (or near) the end.

On a separate note, these were interesting:

liopoil's hedgy "oh I wish I didn't have to" crap was definitely super scummy.

If I wasn't so sure that WW/BA are scum, I'd point the finger at liopoil, who've I've suspected all game.

Lio/Arch is the team if the "masons" weren't lying.

So who are we congratulating?  That's endgame, right?

Come on guys, no reason to stretch this out.

So who are we congratulating?  That's endgame, right?

I say this because no way WW/BA run this masons gambit without being loved.

Also, shame on you liopoil -- you have been around long enough to know town!ash.

I will enjoy rubbing this in your faces for ages to come, your horrendous reads.  Everyone but faust.

(of course, on the off chance that faust is scum, his read doesn't count)

Seriously, this always happens when I'm town at an important juncture of a game.  Ridiculous.

gg scum masons and horrible game town believers

Somewhat clever on Ash's part, I guess, despite the lying as town thing.  He assumed scum was would have the game won with his mislynch and wanted to out them before it was clear he was Loved.

[liopoil]

Everyone likes to talk about how utterly scummy I have been yet the last 2 townies to die were quite certain I was town amongst the remaining. Why do you think that is?

gosh, that really does point to a ww/BA team

[Witherweaver]

Everyone likes to talk about how utterly scummy I have been yet the last 2 townies to die were quite certain I was town amongst the remaining. Why do you think that is?

gosh, that really does point to a ww/BA team

Indeed, good thing you've been hedging that for so long.

[Hydrad]

ok. I'm really sorry asher and faust but I'm going to try to trust myself.

I really think that ww/ba is town here and will feel terrible if they are the scum team.

Out of the 3 people left I think lio is the scummiest and I think its a lio/arch team more then a lio/pps team but not by much.

As of this moment I'm willing to lynch lio but I won't vote yet as I don't know the rules to play this late into the game.

[pingpongsam]

As I said, I am sheeping hydrad within the boundary of not voting myself. When I was voting myself I would have done so but I've decided that doing so was against the civility pledge; I was certainly doing so to cause grief to whoever my fellow townies are.  Once hydrad casts a vote I will follow with an echoing vote.

[Archetype]

Last post - I'm literally walking out the door.

My gut says that PPS/lio are the scum team, but logic points to WW/BA. The main thing that sways me to WW/BA being scum is WW's power not being confirmed and one scum power role missing. We could No Lynch, have WW target me with his power (I do have some dice left), and test it out tomorrow. However, if PPS is the dice destroyer he could target me and remove all my dice. And WW might not have any shots left. And Hydrad would surely die.

So, I think I'm going to Vote: BA. I think the day ends when I'm still V/LA, so I probably won't be able to move my vote*. There seems to be enough support for a liopoil lynch without my vote, so the day shouldn't end with an unwanted No Lynch.

*I may have access to a hotspot sometime during the week, so I may be able to check back in to get a lynch through.

PPE: 2. Looks like it's unlikely anyways that one of BA/WW will be lynched. Well, gg if you guys are scum.

[Witherweaver]

Well, if Archetype is town then it doesn't matter between Lio/PPS.

If Arch is scum, one of Lio/PPS is his partner.  I don't know what that implies.. if he tries to defend his partner here, then it's a big risk if we end up lynching his partner.  If he all-out busses his partner I think it looks risky, too.  So scum!Arch would probably want to group Lio/PPS together with similar reads.  Of course, with the Mason dichotomy and Hydrad IC, Lio/PPS are naturally grouped together from Arch's standpoint, because it has to be them or us. 

He calls both Lio/PPS scum in his last reads post, which is probably what I'd do in his shoes.  ..... okay this line of thinking is not going to go anywhere.

I think Lio is scum.  The only way I'm wrong is if the team is Arch/PPS.

So... let's reread to see if that's likely.  Not that I even know how to do that... I would expect, well, somewhat hedgy comments  early on, nothing strong unless it seemed safe or it came to a point where bifurcating would outweigh the risks of one getting lynched.. which was probably as soon as Voltaire got lynched.  So I've learned my logic is useless. 

Hydrad, I suggest we both reread to see if Arch/PPS team is possible (not if either are scummy individually).  If we can conclude it's not, then vote Lio.  If we conclude it's likely, I'd still suggest PPS over Arch.  I should post my thoughts before you, since I can assume you won't really be influenced by what I say, but you can't be sure I won't modify my thoughts after your post to placate you in some way.

BA, you should do the same thing.

Hold off on further votes until this is done.

When is the deadline for today?

[Beyond Awesome]

The deadline is the 9th, I think. So, we got time. I will do an Arch/PPS reread. I still think the odds of Lio being scum are really, really high at this point though.

[liopoil]

The deadline is the 9th, I think. So, we got time. I will do an Arch/PPS reread. I still think the odds of Lio being scum are really, really high at this point though.

nonsense. You have nothing to make you think this is so high.

[liopoil]

Well, if Archetype is town then it doesn't matter between Lio/PPS.

If Arch is scum, one of Lio/PPS is his partner.  I don't know what that implies.. if he tries to defend his partner here, then it's a big risk if we end up lynching his partner.  If he all-out busses his partner I think it looks risky, too.  So scum!Arch would probably want to group Lio/PPS together with similar reads.  Of course, with the Mason dichotomy and Hydrad IC, Lio/PPS are naturally grouped together from Arch's standpoint, because it has to be them or us. 

He calls both Lio/PPS scum in his last reads post, which is probably what I'd do in his shoes.  ..... okay this line of thinking is not going to go anywhere.

I think Lio is scum.  The only way I'm wrong is if the team is Arch/PPS.

So... let's reread to see if that's likely.  Not that I even know how to do that... I would expect, well, somewhat hedgy comments  early on, nothing strong unless it seemed safe or it came to a point where bifurcating would outweigh the risks of one getting lynched.. which was probably as soon as Voltaire got lynched.  So I've learned my logic is useless. 

Hydrad, I suggest we both reread to see if Arch/PPS team is possible (not if either are scummy individually).  If we can conclude it's not, then vote Lio.  If we conclude it's likely, I'd still suggest PPS over Arch.  I should post my thoughts before you, since I can assume you won't really be influenced by what I say, but you can't be sure I won't modify my thoughts after your post to placate you in some way.

BA, you should do the same thing.

Hold off on further votes until this is done.

When is the deadline for today?

Thank you. It is indeed very likely the team.

I do still think arch/pps is the scumteam more likely than ww/BA though, just because they are simply scummier and I can't get past them being in the town reward and all.

Vote: pingpongsam

Arch is just as scummy at this point, especially since I know they have the same alignment, so I'd lynch there as well.

How does archetype call me and pps scummy, then vote for BA?

[liopoil]

Hydrad, why am I so scummy? Nobody has actually come up with anything, just bad reasoning here and there which I've addressed. I am NOT going to let myself be mislynched and lose the game like this.

[liopoil]

Everyone likes to talk about how utterly scummy I have been yet the last 2 townies to die were quite certain I was town amongst the remaining. Why do you think that is?

gosh, that really does point to a ww/BA team

Indeed, good thing you've been hedging that for so long.

What? Sure, I hadn't made up my mind between ww/BA and arch/pps, but neither had arch or pps! (replacing arch/pps with the other possible team from town!them's perspective.)

[Hydrad]

I will say this. I don't really see a possibility of lio/pps being the scum team. So if we believe that we can just lynch arch as I feel hes scum from one of the team members. I guess its because I'm dead tomorrow so I want to find his partner too.

[Witherweaver]

I will say this. I don't really see a possibility of lio/pps being the scum team. So if we believe that we can just lynch arch as I feel hes scum from one of the team members. I guess its because I'm dead tomorrow so I want to find his partner too.

Why is that?  I see them as the more likely one.

[Witherweaver]

Also realize, you're not necessarily dead tomorrow.  If we lynch correctly, then we have three IC's tomorrow, so any of us can die.  If we choose wrongly, we lose. 

[Hydrad]

Also realize, you're not necessarily dead tomorrow.  If we lynch correctly, then we have three IC's tomorrow, so any of us can die.  If we choose wrongly, we lose.

Ah ya I guess thats true.

[liopoil]

I will say this. I don't really see a possibility of lio/pps being the scum team. So if we believe that we can just lynch arch as I feel hes scum from one of the team members. I guess its because I'm dead tomorrow so I want to find his partner too.

Sure, Vote: Archetype

[liopoil]

I will say this. I don't really see a possibility of lio/pps being the scum team. So if we believe that we can just lynch arch as I feel hes scum from one of the team members. I guess its because I'm dead tomorrow so I want to find his partner too.

Why is that?  I see them as the more likely one.

Yeah, because I "epicly bussed" or whatever?