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[ashersky]

Huge scumslip in BA's final paragraph there.

vote: BA

Not a scum slip. I had gone into D4 planning on doing a reread. When I began it, Faust was not on my lists of suspects. It was only until I was further along into my read that I started to become really suspicious of him. By that time I did not feel like going back and including him but to instead do a separate read of him when I finished my current read. Also, I was not sure if I included him if I would have enough time to get my reads out D4 which I felt was important.

That wasn't what I meant.  You said you'd do it on D5.  You know who knows they'll survive to the next day AFTER supposedly becoming a mason?  Lying scum.

No. I was saying I did not think I would have the read ready until D5 seeing how long it took me just to compile my other reads and those were through D4.

See?  A much flimsier excuse.

[Beyond Awesome]

Even in my other post that is essentially what I said. I say I don't think I will have a Faust read ready on D4. For me, it takes a long time to do a read, especially seeing how many pages this thread has become.

[Archetype]

Back from V/LA.

Okay, so let's see whose plays here make sense as scum:

ash: Trying to push a lynch when it's pretty clear that it won't go through? Claiming to have been visited by the Love Doctor and having done strange things that could easily be viewed as scummy for no reason? I think if he really was scum, he would have somehow tried to get PPS lynched by now. Especially if he's loved. And even if PPS is his partner. Also, how is the VT claim scummy again? I think scum would have preferred a fake claim. If scum!ash is just going to claim VT, why did he refuse to claim on D3?

PPS: His D1 play seriously makes no sense at all for scum. It's not grabbing towncred to claim an anti-town role. Also, do you think he was indeed targeted by "the dice destroyer" N0? Because that would kinda imply that he's not that role himself. Which means his partner has it, which means his partner has to be ash. And ash's not scum. Add in the way he claimed today - what reason would scum possibly have to make a full turnaround on how their role works? Add in that his posts when he first claims imply that his role actually works the way it does (he says, IIRC, that his role gives out "1d12". In the OP, it's stated that 1d12 means a random number between 1 and 12).

liopoil: Used his power in a very pro-town way so far. He is super hardcore tunneling PPS, which could be an epic bus (unlikely). If it's not, then that implies that he's not partners with PPS, which means his partner has to be ash, and ash is town.

Arch: Actually the one whose play fits a scum narrative best, lurking, sheeping claimed Masons, not providing much content of his own. But there is no partner for him, so I just have to assume he's anti-town town.

Oh, I'm the one who's anti-town? If you aren't scum, you're anti-town for pushing a lynch against 2 Masons.

My lynch preference:

PPS > Ash >>>> No Lynch >> liopoil >>>Faust >>>>> WW/BA


Almost everything else that has been said has been said before. We're just arguing in circles now. Ash is making ridiculous attempts to get BA/WW lynched and PPS is being scummy to the point where I find it hard for anyone to have a townread on him.

[liopoil]

faust:  BA/WW > No Lynch
WW: Ash > PPS > Faust > Arch > Lio > Hydrad
ash: BA/WW > liopoil > archetype > hydrad > PPS > Faust
Hydrad: ash/PPS > arch > lio > faust
BA: PPS > ash > Faust > Lio > Arch > Hydrad/WW
PPS: Arch > hydrad > ash/lio > No Lynch > WW/BA > Faust
lio: PPS > arch > ash > faust > ww > BA > Hydrad
arch: PPS > Ash >>>> No Lynch >> liopoil >>>Faust >>>>> WW/BA

added arch. I'll remove everyone after no lynch in people's lists:

faust:  BA/WW > No Lynch
WW: Ash > PPS > Faust > Arch > Lio > Hydrad
ash: BA/WW > liopoil > archetype > hydrad > PPS > Faust
Hydrad: ash/PPS > arch > lio > faust
BA: PPS > ash > Faust > Lio > Arch
PPS: Arch > hydrad > ash/lio > No Lynch
lio: PPS > arch > ash > No Lynch
arch: PPS > Ash > No Lynch

Some people didn't include No Lynch.

I see arch, lio and BA having pps first (I thought BA preffered ash?), Hydrad with him split with ash, and WW with pps second. That's 5.

only 2 for BA/WW, but pps seems he would go for that too.

WW has ash first, BA has ash second but I think actually prefers ash, Hydrad has ash shared in first, arch has him second and I have him third. So that is also 5... I certainly prefer a pps lynch, but if the others prefer ash I'll do that instead.

pps has arch first, I have him second, hydrad has him 3rd, ash and ww have him 4th, but they didn't include no lynch. I'll take this over an ash lynch for sure, ash and ww, would you go for an arch lynch? I am a bit concerned that pps has arch first, but that is a really easy bus to do - he hasn't been pushing it much and it doesn't look likely to happen.

But really, can we just lynch pps already?

On another note, guys, stop harassing BA/ww, even if they are scum it isn't helping, and BA/ww, stop responding to them, you are only making yourself look scummier to them, and a little bit to me.

[liopoil]

ash, faust, and pps aren't willing to vote for any of the players whose lynches might actually go through, except perhaps for archetype, so if Hydrad really wants that no lynch he can pretty much force it.

[pingpongsam]

I am fairly certain an ashersky lynch can be had.

[pingpongsam]

PPS is being scummy to the point where I find it hard for anyone to have a townread on him.

Classic ericsonian suggestion technique in effect here. How can you find it hard for other people to have a town read on someone? They can do that for themselves without your guidance.

[Witherweaver]

Huge scumslip in BA's final paragraph there.

vote: BA

Not a scum slip. I had gone into D4 planning on doing a reread. When I began it, Faust was not on my lists of suspects. It was only until I was further along into my read that I started to become really suspicious of him. By that time I did not feel like going back and including him but to instead do a separate read of him when I finished my current read. Also, I was not sure if I included him if I would have enough time to get my reads out D4 which I felt was important.

That wasn't what I meant.  You said you'd do it on D5.  You know who knows they'll survive to the next day AFTER supposedly becoming a mason?  Lying scum.

killing one of us at night makes the other an IC.  Why do that?

Over half the players have given you IC status already.

Way to answer for your partner, dude.  Should have seen if he could up with that on his own.  I doubt he was thinking that, look at the context of his post.

So scummy.

There is nothing scummy about his post.

[pingpongsam]

Answering for the guy who is perceived to be your scum partner reinforces the notion you are scum partners, so yeah, there is a distinct scumminess to that post regardless of the content.

[ashersky]

I'd lynch arch before PPS, but if he's town, we learn nothing and just lose.  Same with my mislynch, PPS mislynch, lio mislynch...if any of those are town, tomorrow is nothing.

WW/BA is both likely to hit scum and confirm a claim.

[Beyond Awesome]

Vote: Ash

[faust]

ash, faust, and pps aren't willing to vote for any of the players whose lynches might actually go through, except perhaps for archetype, so if Hydrad really wants that no lynch he can pretty much force it.

Well, you aen't willing to vote for someone who's actually scum. I'm still waiting for an actual case on PPS.

[Witherweaver]

Answering for the guy who is perceived to be your scum partner reinforces the notion you are scum partners, so yeah, there is a distinct scumminess to that post regardless of the content.

So what happened was, Ash said something whose premise wasn't sensible.  I explained why.  He called me scummy for it.

[pingpongsam]

Answering for the guy who is perceived to be your scum partner reinforces the notion you are scum partners, so yeah, there is a distinct scumminess to that post regardless of the content.

So what happened was, Ash said something whose premise wasn't sensible.  I explained why.  He called me scummy for it.

But he wasn't talking to you when he said. That you wouldn't let BA speak for himself is notable when there is suspicion you may be scum partners. Acting as if it isn't further reinforces it.

[Witherweaver]

Answering for the guy who is perceived to be your scum partner reinforces the notion you are scum partners, so yeah, there is a distinct scumminess to that post regardless of the content.

So what happened was, Ash said something whose premise wasn't sensible.  I explained why.  He called me scummy for it.

But he wasn't talking to you when he said. That you wouldn't let BA speak for himself is notable when there is suspicion you may be scum partners. Acting as if it isn't further reinforces it.

Notable how?  The premise of Ash's accusation was invalid.  This is an objective fact.  *Ash* himself should have realized this, or point out how my thinking is flawed.

There is nothing here except for the context. 

[faust]

I wrote a massive reread of days 1-3 on the previous page addressing why I find their actions scummy.

So who is the scum team? Show me two players and explain how they fit together as scum. Also, respond to me objections.

At this point, I have no idea who the scum team is because this day has been derailed so badly. On my reads, I explain that Ash is the scummiest. Arch is null to me because both he mail-mi have been VLA. I feel for the most part Lio's posts don't contribute much to the game, so I can see him blending in as scum. And, I just see what PPS to do weird and scummy. Also, his claim is super crazy sounding. So, who is the scum team? How would I know? Hopefully, if we catch scum today, we will be able to figure out who the partner is. But, I can see any of these players paired up with each other, to be honest. I apologize that I am not like you Faust who just decides who the scum team is while completing ignoring the possibility other players can be scum as well.

I have considered each possibility, and decided that al except you/WW aren't reasonable. You're just stating "people are scummy" in a game with 158 pages, where everyone has already done plenty of stuff that can be considered scummy. When looking for scum, you have to ask yourself: is it reasonable that X and Y are scum together? You completely ignore that question, because you wouldn't like the answers you'd need to give.

[faust]

This post is basically contentless, or even worse, forced content. I can compile a list of scummy actions like this for any player in the game.

This post is outright rude. I spent tons and tons of hours working on my reads. I put a lot of thought and effort into it. All you are doing is treating me like crap. Every action I do is scummy no matter what to you. It does not matter how much I try to contribute to this game, you have decided I am scum so therefore anything I put out is "contentless." Well, let me tell you something, you not considering anyone else to be scum is contentless. You are adding nothing to the game. Even worse, if you are town, you are handing this game to scum. Why? Because if either WW's or my mislynch goes through then if you are town, scum is surely going to push your mislynch with the argument I made about you tunneling town players. Essentially, I fully expect scum to tunnel you D5 and succeed at this point.

If you feel like I'm treating you like crap, I'm really sorry. No matter what alignment you are, we all just want to have fun here. These last weeks have been a bit stressful for me IRL, so maybe my tone was harsher than it should have been.

But, my posts are not contentless. I have posted my thoughts on every player on the game multiple times, and everyone can see how I've ended up on you two. Just because I don't switch my vote around like crazy and try to lynch any player just for the sake of lynching doesn't mean I haven't thought things through.

[faust]

I cannot believe that town!Ash does not know I'm town here.  This would be horribly inconsistent with everything I know so far.

This is ridiculous.

I know, Ash is ridiculous.  So are you, by the way.

There is a difference between calling posts ridiculous and calling people ridiculous. The latter is clearly beyond the civility pledge.

[faust]

I wrote a massive reread of days 1-3 on the previous page addressing why I find their actions scummy.

So who is the scum team? Show me two players and explain how they fit together as scum. Also, respond to me objections.

I'm sure scum teams always try to make it clear who their partners are so that people can fit everything together.

Of course, it's completely nonsensical to try and look for partners. Town is better off just lynching randomly, because hey, scum is not going to out themselves, right?

[faust]

Okay, VT claim is not scummy.. only other unconfirmed role is you if we believe PPS, so you must be the dice destroyer.  Is that better? 

Hey, look, you're right. Out of PPS, ash, me, I'm the only one who can plausibly be the dice destroyer. Why don't you vote for me?

[faust]

Oh, I'm the one who's anti-town? If you aren't scum, you're anti-town for pushing a lynch against 2 Masons.

Claimed Masons. I can say you're anti-town for psuhing two claimed town players as well. Why is everything WW/BA say considered the bare truth by you?

[Witherweaver]

I wrote a massive reread of days 1-3 on the previous page addressing why I find their actions scummy.

So who is the scum team? Show me two players and explain how they fit together as scum. Also, respond to me objections.

I'm sure scum teams always try to make it clear who their partners are so that people can fit everything together.

Of course, it's completely nonsensical to try and look for partners. Town is better off just lynching randomly, because hey, scum is not going to out themselves, right?

My point is it's not necessarily easy to figure out who the team is.  Especially when you don't know who the first player is.  I think Ash is most likely scum, but I don't know who his most likely partner is.

Okay, here is from my perspective.  I know that BA is town (believe me, if last night hadn't happened I'd be calling for his lynch).  I also think that the die destroyer role is unlikely to belong to the people that have claimed and have had their role confirmed in some way*.  So for me that leaves you and Ash, and I think Ash is much more likely than you are.

This isn't random at all.  It's what makes the most sense for me.. and, by the way, if I'm Town and you're Town, then I actually have more information than you do, here, because I have BA 100% confirmed.

There's no one I can rule out as Ash's partner.. not even you.  My Town reads on Hydrad and Archetype are due to their entire play, not just their interactions with Ash.  If Ash flips scum, then I can look at how everyone treated him and approached the lynch to try to find out who the partner is.  Or more importantly, how he treated other people, because there's probably more information there. 

I haven't seen anything you said that convincingly rules out anyone from being Ash's partner.. in fact in your read list before, multiple players had something like ("but then he'd have to be Ash's partner, and Ash is town"). 

*Maybe Hydrad's isn't really confirmed.  We just don't have a contradiction from what he's claimed to do.. I don't remember who he claimed to target each night... but of course that's a dangerous fake claim.  Lio's seems real as multiple people have verified to receive dice.  After the whole PPS thing I'm inclined to believe him. Archetype has played twice on a day where he didn't play the previous day, so that checks out.

PPE: 2

[Witherweaver]

Okay, VT claim is not scummy.. only other unconfirmed role is you if we believe PPS, so you must be the dice destroyer.  Is that better? 

Hey, look, you're right. Out of PPS, ash, me, I'm the only one who can plausibly be the dice destroyer. Why don't you vote for me?

Why can't Ash?

[Witherweaver]

Okay, VT claim is not scummy.. only other unconfirmed role is you if we believe PPS, so you must be the dice destroyer.  Is that better? 

Hey, look, you're right. Out of PPS, ash, me, I'm the only one who can plausibly be the dice destroyer. Why don't you vote for me?

Why can't Ash?

And, because you're putting too much effort into rereading and trying to think things through (even though you are completely wrong.)  And your actions around Day 2 or so don't seem like something scum would do.. maybe it's just because you were trying to figure out setup and "mysterious visitor" stuff, and I guess you could do that as scum as well as town, but it seemed like your agenda was much more "what's going on in this game?" instead of "Who should we get lynched?"

The only real point against you (other than my OMGUSy attitude) is that your claim as Universal Backup for Die-related Abilities was just so convenient, and there has not been two verified die losses since Yuma/e was lynched.

So if you're scum, then this is a really cavalier performance from you.

[Witherweaver]

Ash, in contrast, hasn't gone through the work of looking at interactions to PoE me and BA making more sense than anything else (which I adamantly disagree with, but that's separate).  Rather, he's jumped on me/BA later (after you and PPS showed that it might be worthwhile) and has been spending his efforts picking at things BA and I are saying and trying to find something he can grab onto and run with.  I think Ash's goal here is to keep arguing because he thinks one of us will end up looking worse than he will, so that other people may join along.  That strikes me as much scummier behavior.