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[pingpongsam]

My general read of ash has been town over the past couple days.

So I'm down to archetype or hydrad if I am going to believe WW/BA.

I'm not seeing much motion towards lynching either of them so no lynch seems to be about the only option available.

[ashersky]

BA was scummily twisting PPS's claim to make him look scummy over the past few pages.  He's trying to argue a lie, or is misunderstanding PPS.

My understanding:

PPS does two things.  First, he actively targets a player to receive one 1d12.  Second, unbeknownst to him, the next player in the game to receive a die, instead of receiving whatever die it should have been, gets a 1d8 instead.

So, generally speaking, the game state change is:

+1 1d12 and +1 1d8 INSTEAD OF +2 1d12

That's a net loss, outside of edge cases.  BA is arguing that it would be pro-town to do that.  Tell me how/why, and tell me why arguing for that isn't scummy as hell.

Not to mention, if it changes all received dice to 1d8 for alternating or whatever, that's even worse.

[Witherweaver]

BA was scummily twisting PPS's claim to make him look scummy over the past few pages.  He's trying to argue a lie, or is misunderstanding PPS.

My understanding:

PPS does two things.  First, he actively targets a player to receive one 1d12.  Second, unbeknownst to him, the next player in the game to receive a die, instead of receiving whatever die it should have been, gets a 1d8 instead.

So, generally speaking, the game state change is:

+1 1d12 and +1 1d8 INSTEAD OF +2 1d12

That's a net loss, outside of edge cases.  BA is arguing that it would be pro-town to do that.  Tell me how/why, and tell me why arguing for that isn't scummy as hell.

Not to mention, if it changes all received dice to 1d8 for alternating or whatever, that's even worse.

Uh.. The game state is change is vs PPS adding a die and X adding a die vs. just X adding a die is

+1 1d12 +1 1d8 instead of +1 1d12.

If PPS doesn't use his power, the initial 1d12 doesn't get added.

[ashersky]

Im arguing against the way BA argued it.

Do you think secretly affecting how other players' dice work is pro-town?

[Witherweaver]

Im arguing against the way BA argued it.

Do you think secretly affecting how other players' dice work is pro-town?

He didn't argue it that way.  He's arguing that PPS is still adding a total die to the supply of dice, which isn't that bad, even though it's a d8.  Though it's not immediately a d8, it's only a d8 the next time someone gets a die.

[pingpongsam]

Yeah, I only introduce one new dice into the game. The d8 is just a mutation of a die otherwise gained by some other player. IINM, I am the only one with the ability to actually bring a die into existence, that is, AFAICT the die does not originate from my supply.

[pingpongsam]

I do not bring a d8 into existence. Someone's d12 gets mutated into a d8 when I bring a completely separate d12 into existence.

[Witherweaver]

I do not bring a d8 into existence. Someone's d12 gets mutated into a d8 when I bring a completely separate d12 into existence.

Those are essentially equivalent when you look at the total universe of dice.  Adding 1d12 then a die later being changed to a d8 is basically adding 1d8.

[Witherweaver]

Modulo those weird details of your role that we don't understand.

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, I only introduce one new dice into the game. The d8 is just a mutation of a die otherwise gained by some other player. IINM, I am the only one with the ability to actually bring a die into existence, that is, AFAICT the die does not originate from my supply.

I thought Lio's role just added dice.

[ashersky]

Im arguing against the way BA argued it.

Do you think secretly affecting how other players' dice work is pro-town?

He didn't argue it that way.  He's arguing that PPS is still adding a total die to the supply of dice, which isn't that bad, even though it's a d8.  Though it's not immediately a d8, it's only a d8 the next time someone gets a die.

But he isn't bringing a 1d8 into existence, as PPS has said.  He's downgrading someone else's 1d12 secretly and messing with their results.

Imagine if he's scum, he just gives 1d12 to his scum partner and gets a free negative effect on a random townie.

[Witherweaver]

Im arguing against the way BA argued it.

Do you think secretly affecting how other players' dice work is pro-town?

He didn't argue it that way.  He's arguing that PPS is still adding a total die to the supply of dice, which isn't that bad, even though it's a d8.  Though it's not immediately a d8, it's only a d8 the next time someone gets a die.

But he isn't bringing a 1d8 into existence, as PPS has said.  He's downgrading someone else's 1d12 secretly and messing with their results.

Imagine if he's scum, he just gives 1d12 to his scum partner and gets a free negative effect on a random townie.

He is bringing 1d12 into existence, and then someone's d12 gets downgraded into a d8.  So, directly after PPS uses his ability, the entire population of dice has been increased by 1.

[Witherweaver]

Im arguing against the way BA argued it.

Do you think secretly affecting how other players' dice work is pro-town?

He didn't argue it that way.  He's arguing that PPS is still adding a total die to the supply of dice, which isn't that bad, even though it's a d8.  Though it's not immediately a d8, it's only a d8 the next time someone gets a die.

But he isn't bringing a 1d8 into existence, as PPS has said.  He's downgrading someone else's 1d12 secretly and messing with their results.

Imagine if he's scum, he just gives 1d12 to his scum partner and gets a free negative effect on a random townie.

Yes, that could be a useful ability for scum to have.

[Witherweaver]

BA was scummily twisting PPS's claim to make him look scummy over the past few pages.  He's trying to argue a lie, or is misunderstanding PPS.

My understanding:

PPS does two things.  First, he actively targets a player to receive one 1d12.  Second, unbeknownst to him, the next player in the game to receive a die, instead of receiving whatever die it should have been, gets a 1d8 instead.

So, generally speaking, the game state change is:

+1 1d12 and +1 1d8 INSTEAD OF +2 1d12

That's a net loss, outside of edge cases.  BA is arguing that it would be pro-town to do that.  Tell me how/why, and tell me why arguing for that isn't scummy as hell.

Not to mention, if it changes all received dice to 1d8 for alternating or whatever, that's even worse.

This statement is incorrect. 

[liopoil]

faust, pps' D1 actions got him towncred. pps does crazy stuff.

This is not a carte blanche to view anything PPS does as scummy.

sure, but it is a reason to not give him towncred for doing crazy stuff.

[pingpongsam]

Yeah, I only introduce one new dice into the game. The d8 is just a mutation of a die otherwise gained by some other player. IINM, I am the only one with the ability to actually bring a die into existence, that is, AFAICT the die does not originate from my supply.

I thought Lio's role just added dice.

I found where lio claimed and he specifically says that when he gives a die he loses a die and it doesn't work if he doesn't have one to discard.

[Beyond Awesome]

My argument is that PPS still brings in another die into existence. I am saying 1d12 + 1d8 is better than 1d12 and 0d8. Also, I doubt my ability as an Arms Inspector would see someone who has a d8 and a d12. According to my role, I see all possible numbers someone can roll.

[Witherweaver]

My argument is that PPS still brings in another die into existence. I am saying 1d12 + 1d8 is better than 1d12 and 0d8. Also, I doubt my ability as an Arms Inspector would see someone who has a d8 and a d12. According to my role, I see all possible numbers someone can roll.

I thought you just got a list of numbers 1,2,3,4,...,12.  So you can't tell the difference between d8+d12 and just d12.

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, I only introduce one new dice into the game. The d8 is just a mutation of a die otherwise gained by some other player. IINM, I am the only one with the ability to actually bring a die into existence, that is, AFAICT the die does not originate from my supply.

I thought Lio's role just added dice.

I found where lio claimed and he specifically says that when he gives a die he loses a die and it doesn't work if he doesn't have one to discard.

Ohhhh.. I thought Faust meant that Lio gave 1d12 number of dice.

[liopoil]

Yeah, I only introduce one new dice into the game. The d8 is just a mutation of a die otherwise gained by some other player. IINM, I am the only one with the ability to actually bring a die into existence, that is, AFAICT the die does not originate from my supply.

I thought Lio's role just added dice.

I found where lio claimed and he specifically says that when he gives a die he loses a die and it doesn't work if he doesn't have one to discard.

I lose ONE die. My target gains 1d12 dice, so anywhere from 1 to 12. It's like the die I discard is rolled, although as far as I know it's 1d12 even if my dice are restricted somehow.

[Beyond Awesome]

My argument is that PPS still brings in another die into existence. I am saying 1d12 + 1d8 is better than 1d12 and 0d8. Also, I doubt my ability as an Arms Inspector would see someone who has a d8 and a d12. According to my role, I see all possible numbers someone can roll.

I thought you just got a list of numbers 1,2,3,4,...,12.  So you can't tell the difference between d8+d12 and just d12.

That's what I am saying. If someone gets a d8, I won't know.

[pingpongsam]

My argument is that PPS still brings in another die into existence. I am saying 1d12 + 1d8 is better than 1d12 and 0d8. Also, I doubt my ability as an Arms Inspector would see someone who has a d8 and a d12. According to my role, I see all possible numbers someone can roll.

I thought you just got a list of numbers 1,2,3,4,...,12.  So you can't tell the difference between d8+d12 and just d12.

That's what I am saying. If someone gets a d8, I won't know.

Yeah, maybe that is so but we are looking for the dice destroyer, right? Do you think the dice destroyer also has the ability to give a guy of his choosing a d12?

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, PPS power is not anti-town like he made a big deal saying on D1.

[Beyond Awesome]

My argument is that PPS still brings in another die into existence. I am saying 1d12 + 1d8 is better than 1d12 and 0d8. Also, I doubt my ability as an Arms Inspector would see someone who has a d8 and a d12. According to my role, I see all possible numbers someone can roll.

I thought you just got a list of numbers 1,2,3,4,...,12.  So you can't tell the difference between d8+d12 and just d12.

That's what I am saying. If someone gets a d8, I won't know.

Yeah, maybe that is so but we are looking for the dice destroyer, right? Do you think the dice destroyer also has the ability to give a guy of his choosing a d12?

I don't. But, you have never used your power and your claim sounds fake and you also said your power was anti-town which it clearly is not.

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, okay, I admit. I can sort of seeing it being anti-town because one die is restricted in how high it can rool, but someone is still gaining an extra die. I won't say it is anti-town. The ability is neutral at best or slightly pro-town.