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[2.71828.....]

BA looking bad here.

I feel like town would be much more desperate and combative here. I felt he was townier early in the game, not so much at all now.

I don't know if you caught his "scumslip" earlier. But it was one of the more legitimate ones I've seen.

Which scumslip was that?

BA said "I will be goon most of tomorrow..."
Sure, it could have been a typo I guess. But it's not like those keys are even close together--so I feel like it may have been a slip.

This talk about a "scumslip" is absolutely ridiculous.  That is clearly a typo and I find it rather annoying that you would bring it up as a scumslip.  Just thought I would get that off my chest

[2.71828.....]

Each Day the Town will be confronted with a new Monster. In order to fight these Monsters, each player will begin the game with some number of dice in their supply. By default, dice in the game are normal, fair, 12-sided dice.

I can inspect players weapons i.e. their dice. I can't find out how many dice they have, but I can find out what values their dice roll.

On N0, I inspected e/yuma and got the result 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12
On N1, I inspected Mail-Mi because he did not roll that day and got the result 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12

Interesting.  I have only rolled up to a 10 so far, so I don't know if I follow the default of a 12 sided dice or am only able to roll up to a 10.  I will ask in my qt but don't really expect to get an answer. 

I am probably the closet thing we have to a cop in this game.

Since the standard is 12, I think he may actually have a bit of a function as a cop, but not enough to where if he came back with a different result I would rush to vote that player.  It is entirely possible that a town member only rolls a 10 sided dice or something and scum can roll a 14 sided dice.  We just don't know.

As far as if this claim is actually a fake claim or a real claim.  I am not sure.  One point that I would make is that he is extremely overestimating his power in saying that he is "the closest thing that we have to a cop."  But I don't know if that is scum trying to say "I am powerful so don't lynch me" or just town who overestimates the power of his role

[2.71828.....]

I will ask in my qt but don't really expect to get an answer. 

yeah, I was right.  no confirmation that I roll a 12-sided dice.  Thats what I expected, but I thought I might as well ask.

[faust]

The case on yuma/e

1. The claim

PPS claims having dice "stolen" early on. yuma does not respond to this at all. I think that a town Thief would like, have some kind of reaction to the fact that someone else claims to be targeted with his power. But no, there's nothing. In the same way, he does not show any surprise at all when BA claims that his supply was attacked. He only claims after I tell him to.

Really: If I was a town Thief and a player claims to be attacked by my power, my reactions would be:
1) Wow, so scum seems to have a Redirector!
2) PPS is probably lying.

This seems information worth sharing, especially seeing that yuma was already an advocate of mass-claiming. I would definitely not just keep this to myself, also because Thief is kind of crappy as a town power and thus it doesn't matter much if outed.

One last thing: town!yuma would know he's a really good scum night kill target. It seems that if you know you're likely to be nightkilled, you wouldn't want to accumulate lots of dice that you steal from other players who are probably town as well.

2. Behaviour towards Voltaire

yuma starts defending Ichi relatively early, saying low dice rolls are not suspicious. This is scummy, considering that it also defends Voltaire. Here is another post where he defends low rolling and instead tries to throw suspicion on players who attacked Voltaire.

3. e's interactions today

I'm ignoring e's initial read posts for this. If I was joining a game halfway through, I'd do the reread before looking up my scum partners, so that it seems more genuine. So I doubt there's much information to be gained.

Here, e states that it is "very likely" that scum is on-wagon. His reasoning for it is merely that it is possible that scum vote for their partners on D1. Well, yes, but how does this make it "very likely" that it happened here? I think e just wants to divert attention from himself.

I already went on a rant on why e not agreeing to Cop PPS is supremely scummy. When I call him out for not considering PPS as scum, all he has in response is "scumslips don't exist". It seems like he wants people to forget this because he knows how bad he looks there. The next post I will fully quote:

Also, e, your above post is nonsensical. I am talking about using you as a 1-shot Cop, and you say "but Cops are useless"! Do you seriously think that a Cop is weaker than your dice-stealing power?

Cops?  I stay away from cops [as a rule] being the town thief.  Cops just don't understand people like me.

In all seriousness though, claiming cop and claiming thief are two totally different things, and you trying to equate them is kind of ridiculous.  Sure, alternative powers can be used in a cop-like manner, but it is just not the same. 

We want as many people to roll when fighting against monsters.  What you propose guarantees that one of our number cannot roll.  You yourself said D1 that we need to discourage low rolls, and that was a major part of your longstanding case against ichi.  Well, what you propose is even worse than encouraging a low roll, you are encouraging a non-roll.  It is totally possible that PPS might gain dice overnight.  I do not want to tamper with that.

First thing is a kind of nervous joke. He then states Copping and using his power are "not the same" without reasoning. Next he says he does not want to prevent PPS from gaining dice. I don't know about you, but I'm willing to trade a Cop result for a slightly reduced chance to beat the monster tomorrow any time. Also, he still never seems to consider that PPS is lying, which, by point 1 of this case, is something that should be rather probable for him.

The next suspicious post:

I call e's above quote a scumslip if there ever was one.

vote: faust

scumslips don't exist.  But, as I actually think faust is town right now, unvote

And I do like a vote: faust until we get some answers from him

This happens within <4 hours, with no reason for your suddenly changed mind.

I am not going to answer your questions, because I do not think it is in town's best interest to answer them.

Ok, thanks.  That is a good enough answer for me.  I mean, that is basically the same answer I gave you, so it would be hypocritical if I refuse your answer while maintaining my own.

unvote

And now to look into why Ashersky is voting liopoil

Really? First he finds me not giving answers scummy enough to change from a town read to voting me, and when I give the standard response to being mysterious, that I would have given regardless of alignment and was totally to be expected, he suddenly backs off.

So here's (I think) very compelling evidence for e being scum. What do other think?

[liopoil]

BA, No dominion card? scummmmmyyyyyyyy...... I will catch up on everything, check the vote count, then vote for him.

[faust]

BA, No dominion card? scummmmmyyyyyyyy...... I will catch up on everything, check the vote count, then vote for him.

Ichi also claimed no dominion card.

[pingpongsam]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

[2.71828.....]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

I am down with vote: yuma.  Not so sure about vote: e though.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: 2.71828...

[liopoil]

Okay, Vote: Beyond Awesome. That was a scummy claim and he was scummy before it too. That is L-2

[liopoil]

Even if his claim is true it still was scummy to claim it when he did. Scum may have roles which seem to be pro-town.

[2.71828.....]

The case on yuma/e

1. The claim

PPS claims having dice "stolen" early on. yuma does not respond to this at all. I think that a town Thief would like, have some kind of reaction to the fact that someone else claims to be targeted with his power. But no, there's nothing. In the same way, he does not show any surprise at all when BA claims that his supply was attacked. He only claims after I tell him to.

Really: If I was a town Thief and a player claims to be attacked by my power, my reactions would be:
1) Wow, so scum seems to have a Redirector!
2) PPS is probably lying.

This seems information worth sharing, especially seeing that yuma was already an advocate of mass-claiming. I would definitely not just keep this to myself, also because Thief is kind of crappy as a town power and thus it doesn't matter much if outed.

One last thing: town!yuma would know he's a really good scum night kill target. It seems that if you know you're likely to be nightkilled, you wouldn't want to accumulate lots of dice that you steal from other players who are probably town as well.

The reactions to PPS saying that his dice were stolen necessitate a claim.  And that is exactly what yuma wanted to do:

I actually think a huge mass claim in terms of powers/dice/rolls/stored dice/etc could be largely beneficial to us. It would give mafia info yes. But it would allow us to best coordinate how to defeat monsters, allow us to force mafia to be more or less truthful about their dice and what they are doing with them (maybe catch them in a lie in regard to what they are doing...) and coordinate powers better that we have as town. Yes downside is mafia would know what we are doing, be better able to determine kills and the like on powerful roles as is the usual with mass claiming... But I think it is very likely worth it.

and again:

still think claiming has potential to help us, but I'll concede to the majority and let it wait for a day or two... not sure why suggesting claiming is scummy

Also, both of the responses you list are absolutely ridiculous.  For example, #1 is false since both Box and PPS claimed to have been stolen from.  I am pretty sure a redirector does not work like that.  So the evidence points to 2 dice stealing/destroying (we still don't know 100% there are two thieves) people.  And then claiming that someone is lying about having dice stolen?  Doesn't really make sense.  So no, those things are not "information worth sharing."  At least not information worth giving up your PR prematurely.

And "he only claims after I tell him to" is a little presumptuous.  He claimed because someone, anyone, was in favor of claiming.  He was chomping at the bit to claim D1, and did so the first opportunity he had D2.  He really only posted once D2 before getting subbed (7 posts in 12 minutes = reading through the thread and replying as you go) and right out of the gate claimed.  So town told him don't claim D1 when he wanted to, and then as soon as he had some confirmation from town to claim, he did so.

And then that last little bit of "not wanting too many dice because you know you will get NKed" is absolutely ridiculous.

[faust]

The case on yuma/e

1. The claim

PPS claims having dice "stolen" early on. yuma does not respond to this at all. I think that a town Thief would like, have some kind of reaction to the fact that someone else claims to be targeted with his power. But no, there's nothing. In the same way, he does not show any surprise at all when BA claims that his supply was attacked. He only claims after I tell him to.

Really: If I was a town Thief and a player claims to be attacked by my power, my reactions would be:
1) Wow, so scum seems to have a Redirector!
2) PPS is probably lying.

This seems information worth sharing, especially seeing that yuma was already an advocate of mass-claiming. I would definitely not just keep this to myself, also because Thief is kind of crappy as a town power and thus it doesn't matter much if outed.

One last thing: town!yuma would know he's a really good scum night kill target. It seems that if you know you're likely to be nightkilled, you wouldn't want to accumulate lots of dice that you steal from other players who are probably town as well.

The reactions to PPS saying that his dice were stolen necessitate a claim.  And that is exactly what yuma wanted to do:

I actually think a huge mass claim in terms of powers/dice/rolls/stored dice/etc could be largely beneficial to us. It would give mafia info yes. But it would allow us to best coordinate how to defeat monsters, allow us to force mafia to be more or less truthful about their dice and what they are doing with them (maybe catch them in a lie in regard to what they are doing...) and coordinate powers better that we have as town. Yes downside is mafia would know what we are doing, be better able to determine kills and the like on powerful roles as is the usual with mass claiming... But I think it is very likely worth it.

and again:

still think claiming has potential to help us, but I'll concede to the majority and let it wait for a day or two... not sure why suggesting claiming is scummy

Also, both of the responses you list are absolutely ridiculous.  For example, #1 is false since both Box and PPS claimed to have been stolen from.  I am pretty sure a redirector does not work like that.  So the evidence points to 2 dice stealing/destroying (we still don't know 100% there are two thieves) people.  And then claiming that someone is lying about having dice stolen?  Doesn't really make sense.  So no, those things are not "information worth sharing."  At least not information worth giving up your PR prematurely.

yuma posted before Box claimed, so he didn't know yet that Box's dice were stolen. And why doesn't claiming that someone is lying make sense? Scum lies.

[2.71828.....]

The case on yuma/e

2. Behaviour towards Voltaire

yuma starts defending Ichi relatively early, saying low dice rolls are not suspicious. This is scummy, considering that it also defends Voltaire. Here is another post where he defends low rolling and instead tries to throw suspicion on players who attacked Voltaire.

really just grasping at straws here.  If you call this:

That said ichi and volt have responded pretty aggressively. Id on't think aggression is suspicious, especially in the face of unwarranted, or perceived unwarranted, suspicion. I think I am most suspicious of the people who pressed them the most.

"trying to throw suspicion on people who attacked Voltaire" then I don't know what to say.  Especially because at the end of his post he doesn't even list any of those people as scummy.

As far as defending low rolls, I agree with what yuma said.

[faust]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

Wait, what? can you expand on that bit about your role?

[2.71828.....]

The case on yuma/e

1. The claim

PPS claims having dice "stolen" early on. yuma does not respond to this at all. I think that a town Thief would like, have some kind of reaction to the fact that someone else claims to be targeted with his power. But no, there's nothing. In the same way, he does not show any surprise at all when BA claims that his supply was attacked. He only claims after I tell him to.

Really: If I was a town Thief and a player claims to be attacked by my power, my reactions would be:
1) Wow, so scum seems to have a Redirector!
2) PPS is probably lying.

This seems information worth sharing, especially seeing that yuma was already an advocate of mass-claiming. I would definitely not just keep this to myself, also because Thief is kind of crappy as a town power and thus it doesn't matter much if outed.

One last thing: town!yuma would know he's a really good scum night kill target. It seems that if you know you're likely to be nightkilled, you wouldn't want to accumulate lots of dice that you steal from other players who are probably town as well.

The reactions to PPS saying that his dice were stolen necessitate a claim.  And that is exactly what yuma wanted to do:

I actually think a huge mass claim in terms of powers/dice/rolls/stored dice/etc could be largely beneficial to us. It would give mafia info yes. But it would allow us to best coordinate how to defeat monsters, allow us to force mafia to be more or less truthful about their dice and what they are doing with them (maybe catch them in a lie in regard to what they are doing...) and coordinate powers better that we have as town. Yes downside is mafia would know what we are doing, be better able to determine kills and the like on powerful roles as is the usual with mass claiming... But I think it is very likely worth it.

and again:

still think claiming has potential to help us, but I'll concede to the majority and let it wait for a day or two... not sure why suggesting claiming is scummy

Also, both of the responses you list are absolutely ridiculous.  For example, #1 is false since both Box and PPS claimed to have been stolen from.  I am pretty sure a redirector does not work like that.  So the evidence points to 2 dice stealing/destroying (we still don't know 100% there are two thieves) people.  And then claiming that someone is lying about having dice stolen?  Doesn't really make sense.  So no, those things are not "information worth sharing."  At least not information worth giving up your PR prematurely.

yuma posted before Box claimed, so he didn't know yet that Box's dice were stolen. And why doesn't claiming that someone is lying make sense? Scum lies.

So you are saying he should have jumped out and told the world that there was a redirector or that scum was lying before his target had even posted.  Really?  I mean, that just seems ridiculous

[faust]

So you are saying he should have jumped out and told the world that there was a redirector or that scum was lying before his target had even posted.  Really?  I mean, that just seems ridiculous

I expected some reaction at some point. yuma could have died on N1, taking his information to the grave. He would at least have dropped hints.

[pingpongsam]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

Wait, what? can you expand on that bit about your role?

It's fairly complicated and totally swingy. When I target a player they receive a 12 sided die. However, when any other player ( I assume the next one but no further after?) gains a die through any method it will be an 8 sided die without their knowledge. Their rolls will alternate between the 8 sided die and the 12 sided dies in their supply. Thus, having a role that detects how many sides are on dice directly relates to what my role does.

[faust]

Okay, then I need BA to clarify: Do you inspect all dice or one single die (i.e. the next die to roll)?

[faust]

Note that BA's claim also fits with the rolls where all dice had the same value.

[XerxesPraelor]

I guess that's evidence in favor of BA. I still think he's scummy, though. vote: e. I think I'll sheep Faust here - the case fits.

[liopoil]

It isn't evidence in favor of BA. I think he is scum who probably does have a PR like that.

[2.71828.....]

The case on yuma/e

3. e's interactions today

Here, e states that it is "very likely" that scum is on-wagon. His reasoning for it is merely that it is possible that scum vote for their partners on D1. Well, yes, but how does this make it "very likely" that it happened here? I think e just wants to divert attention from himself.

Sure there is some motive in diverting attention away from myself.  But I am also working with the knowledge that if their weren't any scum on the wagon, then 2 of liopoil, chairs, and WW are scum.  I just don't see that being true.  Maybe one of those three are scum, but I highly doubt 2.  Then we also have the post by Voltaire saying that scum are avoiding his wagon.  In all, I think there is a ton of WIFOM in saying scum is on/off wagon because of the quicklynch.

I already went on a rant on why e not agreeing to Cop PPS is supremely scummy. When I call him out for not considering PPS as scum, all he has in response is "scumslips don't exist". It seems like he wants people to forget this because he knows how bad he looks there. The next post I will fully quote:

First thing is a kind of nervous joke. He then states Copping and using his power are "not the same" without reasoning. Next he says he does not want to prevent PPS from gaining dice. I don't know about you, but I'm willing to trade a Cop result for a slightly reduced chance to beat the monster tomorrow any time. Also, he still never seems to consider that PPS is lying, which, by point 1 of this case, is something that should be rather probable for him.

Insert-->" I want to vote e because my plan is brilliant and he doesn't want to do it"

As far as the joke goes, I do that sometimes.  Check my earlier games.

And as far as PPS lying goes, since we had two people lose dice over N0, and two people lose dice over N1, why should I think that PPS is lying when he said his dice were stolen?

The next suspicious post:

I call e's above quote a scumslip if there ever was one.

vote: faust

scumslips don't exist.  But, as I actually think faust is town right now, unvote

And I do like a vote: faust until we get some answers from him

This happens within <4 hours, with no reason for your suddenly changed mind.

I am not going to answer your questions, because I do not think it is in town's best interest to answer them.

Ok, thanks.  That is a good enough answer for me.  I mean, that is basically the same answer I gave you, so it would be hypocritical if I refuse your answer while maintaining my own.

unvote

And now to look into why Ashersky is voting liopoil

Really? First he finds me not giving answers scummy enough to change from a town read to voting me, and when I give the standard response to being mysterious, that I would have given regardless of alignment and was totally to be expected, he suddenly backs off.

Calm down.  Lets talk about voting.  You say that I changed from a town read to voting you.  That is partially true.  The part that isn't true is that I changed from a town read on you.  I still thought you were town even when I voted for you.  You were never in any danger, and I wanted to catch your attention and get a specific response.  And I did.  What I accomplished is getting you to give the same response that I gave to your further probes.  Namely that you do not think it is in town's best interest to answer those questions.  So now when I give that answer, who are you to say that I am scummy for it?  Namely, I do not think that it is in town's best interest to fully explain all of my reasoning behind not wanting to do your plan regarding PPS.

So here's (I think) very compelling evidence for e being scum. What do other think?

[Beyond Awesome]

Ha! We still might get our PPS investigation, even without e's cooperation!

So PPS has no dice left, correct? That would mean that BA should probably get "nothing" as a result, if I'm not mistaken.

BA, can you check back with Jimmmmm to find out what your power would do when you target a player that has no dice left?

I just asked in my QT.

[2.71828.....]

and another question to ponder:

why would scum!yuma claim thief after his partner has already been lynched?  I mean, people were already wanting to lynch the thief before the claim, so you would think that scum!thief would be opposed to claiming.

think about it