Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[florrat]

Ok, you convinced me that Urchin has a better attack than Spy. Still, the other discarders are too high, IMO.

[Donald X.]

Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck. If they revealed any Treasure cards, they trash one of them that you choose. They discard the other revealed cards.

I would say this is easily the worst attack of all. The only card that does this and isn't outright unplayable awful is Noble Brigand... and I would say that's because Brigand's attack activates on-buy.

I would say it's because it's not that attack - it doesn't hit coppers and can hand out coppers.

[Robz888]

Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck. If they revealed any Treasure cards, they trash one of them that you choose. They discard the other revealed cards.

I would say this is easily the worst attack of all. The only card that does this and isn't outright unplayable awful is Noble Brigand... and I would say that's because Brigand's attack activates on-buy.

I would say it's because it's not that attack - it doesn't hit coppers and can hand out coppers.

Ah, I thought Lekkit had combined those into one, I didn't see that the exact Noble Brigand attack was listed later. I feel like it's a billion slots too high!

[SirPeebles]

For me, it's basically like this:

Junk 2 cards > discard down to 3 > junk 1 > rest

In other words, you'll take Militia over Witch?

I'm not comparing them. I'm comparing vanilla curse giver with vanilla discarder and I think the vanilla discarder would be slightly better overall. The discarder is harder to defend against. Junking one card is not that spectacular without a bonus.

But if we believe torturer gaining a curse is roughly equal to discarding 2.

When you have five cards in hand, discarding two cards is quite often preferable to gaining a Curse.  But Torturer stacks well; once you are down to three cards, discarding yet another two is absolutely crippling unless the remaining card is something like Minion, Tactician, or possibly Scrying Pool.

[SirPeebles]

Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck. If they revealed any Treasure cards, they trash one of them that you choose. They discard the other revealed cards.

I would say this is easily the worst attack of all. The only card that does this and isn't outright unplayable awful is Noble Brigand... and I would say that's because Brigand's attack activates on-buy.

The Spy effect is weak but quite annoying, especially when it comes continuously. I mean, both kinds of attacks are strong against BM (which hardly ever matters), and pathetically weak against engines, although the Spy does a bit more for you against the engines.

If you look at published cards, "Thief" is terminal while "Spy" is cantrip.  Imagine comparing a cantrip "Thief" to a terminal, non-self-spying "Spy".  I think that the "Thief" attack is clearly more powerful than "Spy".  If Thief were as spammable as Spy, you would just eviscerate your opponent's economy.  Especially if your opponent is trashing out your Coppers at the same time.

[LastFootnote]

When you have five cards in hand, discarding two cards is quite often preferable to gaining a Curse.  But Torturer stacks well; once you are down to three cards, discarding yet another two is absolutely crippling unless the remaining card is something like Minion, Tactician, or possibly Scrying Pool.

A hand with just Tactician does you no good.

[SirPeebles]

When you have five cards in hand, discarding two cards is quite often preferable to gaining a Curse.  But Torturer stacks well; once you are down to three cards, discarding yet another two is absolutely crippling unless the remaining card is something like Minion, Tactician, or possibly Scrying Pool.

A hand with just Tactician does you no good.

D'oh.  You are right, of course.

[LastFootnote]

When you have five cards in hand, discarding two cards is quite often preferable to gaining a Curse.  But Torturer stacks well; once you are down to three cards, discarding yet another two is absolutely crippling unless the remaining card is something like Minion, Tactician, or possibly Scrying Pool.

A hand with just Tactician does you no good.

D'oh.  You are right, of course.

I have been reminded of this the hard way at least twice! 

[AdamH]

When you have five cards in hand, discarding two cards is quite often preferable to gaining a Curse.  But Torturer stacks well; once you are down to three cards, discarding yet another two is absolutely crippling unless the remaining card is something like Minion, Tactician, or possibly Scrying Pool.

A hand with just Tactician does you no good.

You are correct. EDIT 14:30 is sort of where my incompetence begins to be explained.

[soulnet]

When you have five cards in hand, discarding two cards is quite often preferable to gaining a Curse.  But Torturer stacks well; once you are down to three cards, discarding yet another two is absolutely crippling unless the remaining card is something like Minion, Tactician, or possibly Scrying Pool.

A hand with just Tactician does you no good.

D'oh.  You are right, of course.

I have been reminded of this the hard way at least twice! 

Edge case: Duration Caravan, Wharf or another Tactitian.

[Witherweaver]

Didn't include "Each other player gains a silver."!

[silverspawn]

Didn't include "Each other player gains a silver."!

actually, that's not even that bad of an idea. there are games where silver isn't much better than curse, and there are even some games where it's worse. i guess you have to rationalize, because hypothetically "each other player draws a card" can also be an attack, but games where silver is an awful card aren't that rare.

[GeoLib]

I definitely don't see Swindler<Fortune Teller. Sure, the variance on swindler is big, but the expected value is still above fortune teller (or below if we're looking at the person being attacked).

[Davio]

Didn't include "Each other player gains a silver."!

actually, that's not even that bad of an idea. there are games where silver isn't much better than curse, and there are even some games where it's worse. i guess you have to rationalize, because hypothetically "each other player draws a card" can also be an attack, but games where silver is an awful card aren't that rare.

I always consider Silver just a necessary evil. I begrudgingly just get 1 to reach $5 and need a real good reason to get more than 1.

[soulnet]

Silver is not that bad of a payload. If you trash your Coppers, Silver is actually good, because just a couple won't get in the way too much. Unless you have cantrip money or cost-decreasers, non-terminal +$2 is pretty decent, especially when you get it with a gainer (no or little opportunity cost). There are games in which Silver is really really bad, but those are not like 80% of the games. Of course is way cooler to treat Silver as pure junk than not, but it seems to me this latest fashion on f.ds may be misleading people into forcing themselves to think of Silver as if it were Copper or Curse, when there are a good number of times when it is not the case. And even when you do not want non-terminal +$2, junk that costs $3 is good with remodel-type or TfB.

[silverspawn]

Silver is not that bad of a payload. If you trash your Coppers, Silver is actually good, because just a couple won't get in the way too much. Unless you have cantrip money or cost-decreasers, non-terminal +$2 is pretty decent, especially when you get it with a gainer (no or little opportunity cost). There are games in which Silver is really really bad, but those are not like 80% of the games. Of course is way cooler to treat Silver as pure junk than not, but it seems to me this latest fashion on f.ds may be misleading people into forcing themselves to think of Silver as if it were Copper or Curse, when there are a good number of times when it is not the case. And even when you do not want non-terminal +$2, junk that costs $3 is good with remodel-type or TfB.

yes, i agree completely. I have heard some people refering to it as the "silver hating phase", and it's defintely something i went through. silver is not a bad card, in the majority of all games its quite a good card. it's bad in, let's say, one of three games, and it's awful in maybe one of six. if i had to include it in the list, it'd probably be the weakest attack, since it isn't harmful most of the times; but i'd still call it an attack because of those games, just not a strong one.

[markusin]

Silver's pretty good if you're getting rid of stuff while gaining the Silvers. Hermit and Jack of all Trades are good examples of this, but there's also Trader and Trading post.

And then there's the Silver flood strategies. Those are pretty resistant to light junking (like gaining green cards) and trash attacks. They put a clock on how much time an engine has to get going. Silver also ain't half bad with Tactician either, given a bit of support from +card or +buy or something.

But often it's just a necessary evil, like Davio said, that allows us to gain good $5 cards more reliably, like Upgrade and Junk Dealer.

[soulnet]

But often it's just a necessary evil, like Davio said, that allows us to gain good $5 cards more reliably, like Upgrade and Junk Dealer.

Actually Upgrade is possibly the card for which Silver is best. It will get rid of your Coppers and let you mantain buying power, and eventually turn into a useful $4 (if there is one). Remake is another good example of a card that makes Silver good. Both give you Silvers for your Estates and give you slim decks where Silver as payload can be good, and also provide TfB over those Silvers if using them as payloads is bad.

[SirPeebles]

if i had to include it in the list, it'd probably be the weakest attack, since it isn't harmful most of the times; but i'd still call it an attack because of those games, just not a strong one.

But no attack card in Dominion does this.  If we are just making up new attacks, I could give you weaker ones than this.

[silverspawn]

if i had to include it in the list, it'd probably be the weakest attack, since it isn't harmful most of the times; but i'd still call it an attack because of those games, just not a strong one.

But no attack card in Dominion does this.  If we are just making up new attacks, I could give you weaker ones than this.

yes but my point is that it's still a relevant number of games. like, mabye one out of 3 or 4.

[Stealth Tomato]

People also tend to forget that part of the reason Governor mirrors are so ridiculously fast is that the Silver improves the buying power of both decks.

[markusin]

But often it's just a necessary evil, like Davio said, that allows us to gain good $5 cards more reliably, like Upgrade and Junk Dealer.

Actually Upgrade is possibly the card for which Silver is best. It will get rid of your Coppers and let you mantain buying power, and eventually turn into a useful $4 (if there is one). Remake is another good example of a card that makes Silver good. Both give you Silvers for your Estates and give you slim decks where Silver as payload can be good, and also provide TfB over those Silvers if using them as payloads is bad.

My initial thinking was that Upgrade is kinda slow at getting 4$s off of Silver early, as there are usually higher priority targets early game. Now that you mention it though, I do recall a Duke game where I was building a Silver->Feodum->Duchy/Duke chain with Upgrade. Bureaucrat was there too, so that helped.

[soulnet]

My initial thinking was that Upgrade is kinda slow at getting 4$s off of Silver early, as there are usually higher priority targets early game. Now that you mention it though, I do recall a Duke game where I was building a Silver->Feodum->Duchy/Duke chain with Upgrade. Bureaucrat was there too, so that helped.

While there are clear better targets, Silver is probably still a decent card to have around. Ok, if you have 8 Grand Markets, 3 Upgrades and 7 Coppers, probably adding a Silver is bad idea, but, how the hell did you get to that strange state??? Usually extra Silver will let you buy nice stuff, even additional Upgrades which will accelerate your trimming more than not having the Silver would. Of course, there are tons of other edge cases (like, 10 Silvers may be really bad, especially in a Colony game, but 10 Ambassadors are also really bad, and Ambassador is a really good card).