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[theright555J]

This has been recently discussed a bit in the 5/2 split thread, but I'd like to get the community's thoughts on this more generally.

I've had it come up a few times in recent games where I got a 5/2 with mountebank on board (in either first or second seat) but no good 2-cost with which to pair it.  This has virtually always prompted a response in the chat, some variant of "you're lucky" or a string of expletives.

My opponent seems to be more convinced the game is over at that point than I am, and even though I'm not a top-tier player, I can usually pick out some significant mistakes in how they play from that moment on.  What is it about a T1 mountebank that makes people get so on tilt?  Is it really that crushingly awesome?  I'm really not convinced.

[silverspawn]

it's good, but it's not game. first you have 1/11 chance for it to miss the reshuffle, in which case it's terrible, and then you also have a fairly small chance not to hit the second time because your opponent has the first curse in his hand, in which case your opponent can catch up pretty quickly. generally, mountebank has a lot of catching up potential, because your attacks can always just not hit

it also depends on the $3s and 4$s of the kingdom. with mountebank, you often want to open silver/silver, but not always.

if you do draw it on turn 3 or 4 and you dont attack into curses or have other bad luck, then you're likely to win. it's probably still the best $5 card to open with, the only rival would be doctor

[SCSN]

Depends on whether you're P1 or P2. My very rough guess is that in a simple BM-Mountebank mirror, a T1 Mountebank as P1 makes you about a 80-20 favorite, as P2 about 65-35. The difference, of course, lies in whether you get to play it before your opponent reshuffles.

[DG]

The simulator gives the advantage as about 60-35 in a treasure+mountebank mirror. The big deal about the mountebank is the first attack and getting it early makes it hard for the opponent to control the deck and pursue any alternate strategy. Since the mountebank gives +2 coins you're never far behind on income either.

[Davio]

The councilroom openings say enough.

Mountebank/- adds about 4.5 points to your skill level.
In my case, it would take me from low 40's to high 40's, straight to the top of the leaderboard.

It is lucky, but it's also not the end of the game. You just have to overcome a bigger deficit.
Or look at it this way: If I'm playing a lvl 37 player, him getting Mountebank/- makes us about even.
Some kingdoms make it easier for a better player to comeback and some don't.

[Schneau]

The councilroom openings say enough.

Mountebank/- adds about 4.5 points to your skill level.
In my case, it would take me from low 40's to high 40's, straight to the top of the leaderboard.

It is lucky, but it's also not the end of the game. You just have to overcome a bigger deficit.
Or look at it this way: If I'm playing a lvl 37 player, him getting Mountebank/- makes us about even.
Some kingdoms make it easier for a better player to comeback and some don't.

I miss Council Room

[soulnet]

Sadly, I don't think Council Room statistics are significant anymore, due to the lack of Dark Ages, Guilds and, mostly, because Dominion is still a "new" game to play seriously (compare to Chess, Go, Bridge, even Tichu) so increase in skill overall, and especially for top100 or top200 players is dramatic every year, so statistics of Council Room now can be considered to be gathered from mediocre players (meaning, the average skill of a player that actually played those games would be the skill of a mediocre player today).

[Davio]

I'd be interested to know how these statistics do hold up now.

I wonder if a Baker-enabled opening like Goons/Chapel, Mountebank/Tournament or something with Doctor would take the top spot.

[Tables]

I'd be interested to know how these statistics do hold up now.

I wonder if a Baker-enabled opening like Goons/Chapel, Mountebank/Tournament or something with Doctor would take the top spot.

Mountebank/Tournament would be interesting, spending that extra coin token on both opening turns. Still the important thing to remember is that Baker-fueled openings are competing with other Baker-fueled openings, so... I dunno.

[KingZog3]

I'd be interested to know how these statistics do hold up now.

I wonder if a Baker-enabled opening like Goons/Chapel, Mountebank/Tournament or something with Doctor would take the top spot.

I wouldn't be surprised is Goons/Chapel is at the top or near it for the best openings.

[soulnet]

Mountebank/Chapel seems way better than Goons/Chapel. Maybe Altar/Chapel is competitive?

[Jack Rudd]

How does Mountebank/Chapel compare with Border Village-Mountebank/Chapel? Is it worth using the Coin token to get the free Village?

[Awaclus]

How does Mountebank/Chapel compare with Border Village-Mountebank/Chapel? Is it worth using the Coin token to get the free Village?

Depends on the board, but usually yes.

[Grujah]

I'd be interested to know how these statistics do hold up now.

I wonder if a Baker-enabled opening like Goons/Chapel, Mountebank/Tournament or something with Doctor would take the top spot.

Mountebank/Tournament would be interesting, spending that extra coin token on both opening turns. Still the important thing to remember is that Baker-fueled openings are competing with other Baker-fueled openings, so... I dunno.

How do you open MB/Tournament?

[Burning Skull]

How do you open MB/Tournament?

IRL, when other players are not paying enough attention 

[Davio]

P1: Noble Brigand (you reveal 2 Estates)
You: Mountebank, draw 2 Coppers, 1 Estate, reshuffle, 2 more Coppers

Don't even need a token.

[Tables]

I'd be interested to know how these statistics do hold up now.

I wonder if a Baker-enabled opening like Goons/Chapel, Mountebank/Tournament or something with Doctor would take the top spot.

Mountebank/Tournament would be interesting, spending that extra coin token on both opening turns. Still the important thing to remember is that Baker-fueled openings are competing with other Baker-fueled openings, so... I dunno.

How do you open MB/Tournament?

I... just told you. You spend the starting coin token on both turns.

[markusin]

I'd be interested to know how these statistics do hold up now.

I wonder if a Baker-enabled opening like Goons/Chapel, Mountebank/Tournament or something with Doctor would take the top spot.

Mountebank/Tournament would be interesting, spending that extra coin token on both opening turns. Still the important thing to remember is that Baker-fueled openings are competing with other Baker-fueled openings, so... I dunno.

How do you open MB/Tournament?

I... just told you. You spend the starting coin token on both turns.

Or player 1 opens Noble Brigand, discarding two of you Estates. The answer is always Noble Brigand.

[KingZog3]

I'd be interested to know how these statistics do hold up now.

I wonder if a Baker-enabled opening like Goons/Chapel, Mountebank/Tournament or something with Doctor would take the top spot.

Mountebank/Tournament would be interesting, spending that extra coin token on both opening turns. Still the important thing to remember is that Baker-fueled openings are competing with other Baker-fueled openings, so... I dunno.

How do you open MB/Tournament?

I... just told you. You spend the starting coin token on both turns.

Or player 1 opens Noble Brigand, discarding two of you Estates. The answer is always Noble Brigand.

P1: Noble Brigand (you reveal 2 Estates)
You: Mountebank, draw 2 Coppers, 1 Estate, reshuffle, 2 more Coppers

Don't even need a token.

[markusin]

Got ninja'd without even realizing it.

[Davio]

Got ninja'd without even realizing it.

That's what a real ninja does. 

[KingZog3]

Got ninja'd without even realizing it.

To be fair Davio didn't quote anyone, so you probably just passed over it thinking it wasn't relevant to that series of comments.

[petrie911]

Are there any super strong $4/$4 openings? Tournament/Remake is the strongest I can think of. Which admittedly seems pretty killer.

[silverspawn]

Are there any super strong $4/$4 openings? Tournament/Remake is the strongest I can think of. Which admittedly seems pretty killer.

quarry/quarry is killer on some boards, but not in general

[sudgy]

Are there any super strong $4/$4 openings? Tournament/Remake is the strongest I can think of. Which admittedly seems pretty killer.

Treasure Map/Treasure Map?

...