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[scott_pilgrim]

I've been working on designing "a few" games over the past few years, almost exclusively euros.  Most of the good ones I have playtested some IRL, and I've thought about trying some in a PBF format but most of them wouldn't really work or would be too slow in that format.  However, I just remembered this game I had been working on a few months ago and never got a chance to playtest IRL, and I think it would work well in a PBF format.  Rules are in the next post, but a basic summary: you move around on a map and try to sell stuff in cities for VP, and bid on stuff (the stuff you're selling for VP) using action points.

So, any interest?

Player list:
1. Kirian
2. Jimmmmm
3. ipofanes
4. XerxesPraelor
5.

Rules in the next post.

[scott_pilgrim]

The objective of the game is to reach a certain number of victory points before other players; that number varies depending on the number of players.

Set-up:
Shuffle the deck of cards and reveal n pairs of cards, where n is the number of players.  (The cards will be bid on in pairs, so it is important that they are grouped clearly in pairs.)
Choose a map to play on.  For first time players, Asia is recommended for 4 or 5 players and Europe for 2 or 3.  If players can’t agree on a map, default to Asia.
Place each player’s pawn in the designated starting city (Bukhara for the Asia map).  Determine randomly who will go first.

Gameplay:
Normal play throughout the game will proceed clockwise, but with a special rule for the first round*.
During a player’s turn, he may take up to 8 action points-worth of actions.  There are three possible actions: move, bid, and sell.
Before taking these actions, the player first checks to see if there are any available card pairs such that he has the most bidding tokens of his color on that card pair (including ties).  (The player must have at least 1 token of his color on the pair.)  If there are, all bidding tokens on that pair are returned to their respective players, and the player wins that pair of cards.  Any “clear a city” cards are resolved immediately.  Then color cube cards immediately give the player the cube(s) of the indicated color(s).  The won cards are then discarded.
After winning a card pair, the player reveals a new pair of cards from the deck (shuffling the discard pile to form a new deck if necessary) to become available for bidding.  He then checks to see if there are any other cards which he has won in this way.
If there are no more available card-pairs which the player has won, the player then moves onto the next step of his turn: taking up to 8 action points-worth of actions.  (The same action may be taken multiple times in one turn.)  A description of the actions (and their cost) follows:
Move action: The player moves his pawn to an adjacent city.  This action costs a number of action points equal to the “distance” between the two cities, as indicated on the line connecting them.  (If no lines connect the two cities, they are not considered to be adjacent.)
Bid action: The player places a bidding token of his color on an available card pair.  This costs 1 action point per token placed in this way.
Sell action: The sell action costs 3 action points.  Let A denote the color of the city on which the player’s pawn currently is.  The player may place a cube of color A on the highest numbered available slot for that city.  The player scores a number of victory points equal to the number on that slot.  A slot is said to be unavailable if there is already a cube on it.

Some cards will say “Clear a city”.  When the player wins one such card, he immediately chooses any city on the board.  All cubes on that city’s slots are removed.
Some cards will say “Wild”.  When the player wins one such card, he immediately chooses a color and gains a cube of that color.  (If the card says “2 Wild”, he may choose two different or same colors.)

Game End:
The game ends immediately when any player reaches (or exceeds) x victory points, where x=150 in a 2-player game, 100 in a 3-player game, 75 in a 4-player game, and 60 in a 5-player game.  The player with the most victory points when the game ends is the winner.


*During the first round, play will proceed counterclockwise, with the last player in the round getting a single “special” 16-point turn (rather than two normal 8-point turns).  That is, the beginning of the game will go P5-P4-P3-P2-P1*-P2-P3-P4-P5-P1-P2-P3-P4-P5-P1…With the P1* turn denoting the turn on which P1 gets 16 action points instead of the usual 8.


General notes and clarifications:
On average, in order of most valuable to least valuable, the cube colors are:
Black
Brown
Red
Yellow
Green
Blue
Gray
White
(Note that this is consistent with resistor color codes, with purple and orange removed.)

Players may take the same action multiple times in one turn.  For example, a player may move from Bukhara to Sarai for 5 action points, by moving through Urgench.

Each player has only one pawn.

Each city can hold any number of pawns.

There is no limit on the number of cubes a player can have at any one time.

Players each have 30 total bidding tokens.  When a player runs out of tokens he cannot use the bid action until he gets them back.  (This limit exists both for practicality purposes IRL and to ensure that no bidding war goes on forever.)

Ties on bids favor the player who bid on the card earlier, since they will check for a highest bid first.


Deck Contents (40 cards total):
1 Black
1 Brown
1 Red
1 Yellow
1 Green
1 Blue
1 Gray
1 White
1 Black
1 Brown
1 Red
1 Yellow
1 Green
1 Blue
1 Gray
1 White
1 Green
1 Blue
1 Gray
1 White
2 Black
2 Brown
2 Red
2 Yellow
2 Green
2 Blue
2 Gray
2 White
1 Wild
2 Wild
1 Red
1 Yellow
1 Green
1 Blue
2 Gray
2 White
Clear a city
Clear a city
Clear a city
Clear a city

Less valuable colors are a little more common on average than more valuable colors (not taking wilds into account).


Asia Map:

[Kirian]

Sure, what the heck, I'll play!

[scott_pilgrim]

Sure, what the heck, I'll play!

Awesome!

[Jimmmmm]

/in

[Archetype]

/in

[XerxesPraelor]

/in for decision-theory reasons (I want people to test my games)

Can you put up a sample turn? I think that would make it a lot easier to understand.

[Ozle]

Looks interesting, I dont have the time to play but i'll read along!

[scott_pilgrim]

/in for decision-theory reasons (I want people to test my games)

Can you put up a sample turn? I think that would make it a lot easier to understand.

Yeah, that is a good idea.

So, this will be one round taken from like the middle of the game (so I can illustrate all of the different things that can happen).


Player (VP): Cubes
Albert (31): 1 Red, 2 Yellow
Bob (25): 2 Brown
Charles (29): (none)
Dave (29): (none)

Available Card Pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 White, Clear a city: 2
2 Green, 1 Gray: 4, 3
1 Black, 1 Blue: 2, 3, 1
2 Red, 1 Yellow: 3

Current map state (x'd out slots are slots which already have cubes on them; small circles are player pawns):


Albert first checks to see if he has won any available card pairs.  He sees that he has won the 2 Green, 1 Gray pair.  The cards are discarded and he takes 2 green cubes and 1 gray cube from the supply.  He then reveals two cards from the top of the deck: 1 Black and 1 Gray.

Albert now considers how he will spend his 8 action points.  He does the following:
Move from Sarai to Urgench (3 action points)
Sell in Urgench (3 action points)
Bid 2 tokens on the 1 Black, 1 Blue pair (2 action points)

When he sells in Urgench, Albert puts one of his green cubes on the first available slot in Urgench, and scores 6 VP (the number on that slot).

Next it is Bob's turn.  The current game state is:

Player (VP): Cubes
Albert (37): 1 Red, 2 Yellow, 1 Green, 1 Gray
Bob (25): 2 Brown
Charles (29): (none)
Dave (29): (none)

Available Card Pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 White, Clear a city: 2
1 Black, 1 Gray:
1 Black, 1 Blue: 4, 3, 1
2 Red, 1 Yellow: 3

Current map state:


Bob checks to see if he has won any card pairs.  He has won the 1 White, Clear a city pair.  He discards the cards, takes a white cube, and immediately chooses a city to clear.  He chooses Gyeongju, and removes all cubes from that city's slots.  He then reveals two cards from the top of the deck: 2 Brown and 1 Red.

Bob now considers how he will spend his 8 action points.  He does the following:
Move from Xining to Loyang (3 action points)
Move from Loyang to Hangzhou (2 action points)
Move from Hangzhou to Gyeongju (2 action points)
Bid 1 token on the 1 Black, 1 Gray pair (1 action point)

[Bob is now in position on his next turn to sell his two brown and score 20 VP!]

Next it is Charles's turn.  The current game state is:

Player (VP): Cubes
Albert (37): 1 Red, 2 Yellow, 1 Green, 1 Gray
Bob (25): 2 Brown, 1 White
Charles (29): (none)
Dave (29): (none)

Available Card Pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Brown, 1 Red:
1 Black, 1 Gray: 1
1 Black, 1 Blue: 4, 3, 1
2 Red, 1 Yellow: 3

Current map state:


Charles checks to see if he has won any card pairs.  He has not.

Charles then considers how he will use his 8 action points.  He does the following:
Bid 2 tokens on the 1 Black, 1 Gray pair (2 action points)
Bid 6 tokens on the 2 Brown, 1 Red pair (6 action points)

Next it is Dave's turn.  The current game state is:

Player (VP): Cubes
Albert (37): 1 Red, 2 Yellow, 1 Green, 1 Gray
Bob (25): 2 Brown, 1 White
Charles (29): (none)
Dave (29): (none)

Available Card Pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Brown, 1 Red: 6
1 Black, 1 Gray: 1, 2
1 Black, 1 Blue: 4, 3, 1
2 Red, 1 Yellow: 3

(The map state is the same as in the previous turn since Charles neither moved nor sold.)

Dave checks to see if he has won any card pairs.  He has won the 2 Red, 1 Yellow pair.  He discards the cards and takes 2 red cubes and 1 yellow cube from the supply.  He then reveals two cards from the deck: 2 Wild and 2 Green.

Dave now considers how he will spend his 8 action points.  He does the following:
Move from Mathura to Puri (3 action points)
Sell in Puri (3 action points)
Bid two tokens on the 2 Wild, 2 Green pair (2 action points)

Dave scores 7 victory points from selling in Puri.

Gameplay would continue with Albert's turn next.  He would win the 1 Black, 1 Blue pair (you can see that his bidding during that example turn paid off).

[scott_pilgrim]

Man those images are gigantic, is there a way to shrink them with a forum command or should I be shrinking them before I upload them?

[scott_pilgrim]

Also, do you guys have preferences as to what colors you are?


I was hoping for 4 or 5 players and we have 4 now, so I'll probably start this in a day or so to leave time if a fifth wants to join.

[XerxesPraelor]

Thanks, I'll be brown, I guess. That definitely made it much clearer.

[Jimmmmm]

Green or red would be my preference.

[Kirian]

I'll take black.

[Archetype]

Actually, I should probably /out. The game looks really fun though!

[ipofanes]

If it's ok that I'll be on V/LA on Saturday and Sunday, I'd like to be /in.

On average, in order of most valuable to least valuable, the cube colors are:
Black
Brown
Red
Yellow
Green
Blue
Gray
White
(Note that this is consistent with resistor color codes, with purple and orange removed.)

And here I was trying to map this to Snooker. But then cubes don't do you much good in Snooker.

[scott_pilgrim]

Okay, I'll start this up in a few minutes.  Thanks again for joining, guys!

Normal player order will be:
1. XerxesPraelor
2. ipofanes
3. Kirian
4. Jimmmmm

Since play order is reversed for the first round, Jimmmmm will be going first.

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (0):
ipofanes (0):
Kirian (0):
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Yellow, 1 Yellow:
2 Blue, 2 Gray:
1 White, Clear a city:
1 Green, 1 White:



Jimmmmm's turn starts.  Jimmmmm does not win any cards.

[Jimmmmm]

Move to Gerrha
Place 1 token on 2 Blue, 2 Gray

[ipofanes]

I take it that the checking for highest bids is only for cards with any bids on them?

[Kirian]

That's only 6 AP, Jim.

[Jimmmmm]

That's only 6 AP, Jim.

Oh right. I thought bidding cost 3, but that's selling. Thanks.

[Jimmmmm]

Updated turn:

Move to Gerrha
Place 2 tokens on 2 Blue, 2 Gray
Place 1 token on 1 Green, 1 White

[Kirian]

Bid 4 on Blue/Grey, 3 on Y/Y, 1 on Green/W

[Jimmmmm]

Huh. I just realised it'll be your turn again before it's my turn again. No fair!

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (0):
ipofanes (0):
Kirian (0):
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Yellow, 1 Yellow: 3
2 Blue, 2 Gray: 2, 4
1 White, Clear a city:
1 Green, 1 White: 1, 1



ipofanes's turn.

[scott_pilgrim]

I take it that the checking for highest bids is only for cards with any bids on them?

Yeah, this is correct

Huh. I just realised it'll be your turn again before it's my turn again. No fair!

Yeah I'm still not convinced that my current way of doing the first round is the best, so far every way of doing it that I've thought of has had some problems.

[ipofanes]

Move to Kashgar
bid 2 on "White, Clear a city"
bid 3 on "1 Green, 1 White"

[XerxesPraelor]

bid 13 on 2 blue, 2 grey
Bid 3 on white, clear a city.

[scott_pilgrim]

ipofanes wins the 1 Green, 1 White pair.  2 Gray, Clear a city comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (0):
ipofanes (0): 1 Green, 1 White
Kirian (0):
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Yellow, 1 Yellow: 3
2 Blue, 2 Gray: 2, 4, 13
1 White, Clear a city: 2, 3
2 Gray, Clear a city:



ipofanes's turn.

[ipofanes]

travel to Mathura
sell
May I save up action tokens? Otherwise:
bid 2 on "gray, clear a city"

[scott_pilgrim]

Kirian wins the 1 Yellow, 1 Yellow pair.  2 Black, 2 White comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (0):
ipofanes (7): 1 White
Kirian (0): 2 Yellow
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Black, 2 White:
2 Blue, 2 Gray: 2, 4, 13
1 White, Clear a city: 2, 3
2 Gray, Clear a city: 2



Kirian's turn.

[scott_pilgrim]

May I save up action tokens? Otherwise:

No, action points cannot be carried over from turn to turn.

[Kirian]

Bid 8 on Black/White

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (0):
ipofanes (7): 1 White
Kirian (0): 2 Yellow
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Black, 2 White: 8
2 Blue, 2 Gray: 2, 4, 13
1 White, Clear a city: 2, 3
2 Gray, Clear a city: 2

(Map same as previous turn.)

Jimmmmm's turn.

[Jimmmmm]

Bid 4 on 1 White, Clear a city
Bid 4 on 2 Gray, Clear a city

[scott_pilgrim]

XerxesPraelor wins the 2 Blue, 2 Gray pair.  2 Green, Clear a city comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (0): 2 Blue, 2 Gray
ipofanes (7): 1 White
Kirian (0): 2 Yellow
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Black, 2 White: 8
2 Green, Clear a city:
1 White, Clear a city: 2, 3, 4
2 Gray, Clear a city: 2, 4

(Map same as previous turn.)

XerxesPraelor's turn.

[Kirian]

As an aside:  I worry about the fact that I was able to make the play I just did.  I guaranteed winning those cards because they came out on my turn.  Not sure you want that to be possible in the final version.

[scott_pilgrim]

As an aside:  I worry about the fact that I was able to make the play I just did.  I guaranteed winning those cards because they came out on my turn.  Not sure you want that to be possible in the final version.

Yeah, I agree that that is a concern.  I was hoping spending an entire turn to win a pair would generally be a bad play, but I don't think that's really the case.  I haven't thought of a good alternative; maybe the best solution is just to make sure cards aren't too powerful relative to action points (either weaken some of the strong cards like 2 Black, or increase the number of AP per turn, or reduce the cost of the sell action, or something to that effect).

Thanks for the input!

[XerxesPraelor]

move to gerrha, sell my blues

[XerxesPraelor]

Also, one possibility is making there more cards out than players so that spreading your bid around is more worth it than focusing on one.
Or make farther away cities better so that using AP for movement is important to get a good price.

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (6): 1 Blue, 2 Gray
ipofanes (7): 1 White
Kirian (0): 2 Yellow
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Black, 2 White: 8
2 Green, Clear a city:
1 White, Clear a city: 2, 3, 4
2 Gray, Clear a city: 2, 4



ipofanes's turn.

[scott_pilgrim]

Also, one possibility is making there more cards out than players so that spreading your bid around is more worth it than focusing on one.
Or make farther away cities better so that using AP for movement is important to get a good price.

Both good suggestions.  Actually the first one is really great, because it would be such a simple change, and might also help some of the issues I was having with the first round.  Thanks for the suggestions!

[Kirian]

Bump.  Ipofanes?

[ipofanes]

Sorry everyone.

2 on Green, clear a city
3 on Grey, clear a city
3 on White, clear a city

[scott_pilgrim]

Kirian wins the 2 Black, 2 White pair.  2 Brown, 1 Blue comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (6): 1 Blue, 2 Gray
ipofanes (7): 1 White
Kirian (0): 2 Yellow, 2 Black, 2 White
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Brown, 1 Blue:
2 Green, Clear a city: 2
1 White, Clear a city: 5, 3, 4
2 Gray, Clear a city: 5, 4

(Map same as previous turn.)

Kirian's turn.

[Kirian]

2 on 2 Brown, 1 Blue
3 on 2 Green, Clear
Sell White for $3

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (6): 1 Blue, 2 Gray
ipofanes (7): 1 White
Kirian (3): 2 Yellow, 2 Black, 1 White
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Brown, 1 Blue: 2
2 Green, Clear a city: 2, 3
1 White, Clear a city: 5, 3, 4
2 Gray, Clear a city: 5, 4



Jimmmmm's turn.

[Jimmmmm]

Bid 4 on 2 Brown, 1 Blue
Bid 2 on 1 White, Clear a City
Bid 2 on 2 Gray, Clear a City

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (6): 1 Blue, 2 Gray
ipofanes (7): 1 White
Kirian (3): 2 Yellow, 2 Black, 1 White
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Brown, 1 Blue: 2, 4
2 Green, Clear a city: 2, 3
1 White, Clear a city: 5, 3, 6
2 Gray, Clear a city: 5, 6

(Map same as previous turn.)

XerxesPraelor's turn.

[XerxesPraelor]

Sell blue, move to Damascus.

[ipofanes]

I get the double turn now, correct?

I guess the checking for highest bid is not executed twice, correct?

[Kirian]

I get the double turn now, correct?

I guess the checking for highest bid is not executed twice, correct?

No, you got that double turn early on in the game.  That was just for the first round, I believe...

Edit:  No, it was Xerxes who got the double turn.

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (9): 2 Gray
ipofanes (7): 1 White
Kirian (3): 2 Yellow, 2 Black, 1 White
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Brown, 1 Blue: 2, 4
2 Green, Clear a city: 2, 3
1 White, Clear a city: 5, 3, 6
2 Gray, Clear a city: 5, 6



ipofanes's turn.

[scott_pilgrim]

I get the double turn now, correct?

I guess the checking for highest bid is not executed twice, correct?

No, you got that double turn early on in the game.  That was just for the first round, I believe...

Edit:  No, it was Xerxes who got the double turn.

Yes, this is correct.  The double turn (as well as the snaking) is just for the first round; it's just a way to try to reduce first player advantage (although it's a little clunky and I'm not sure it really reduces FPA that much anyway, but that's what playtesting is for).

[ipofanes]

2 Green, Clear a city: bid 4
1 White, Clear a city: bid 2
2 Gray, Clear a city: bid 2

[Kirian]

Bid 3 more on 2 Brown/2 Blue (total 5)
Sell White (2 points)
Move to Urgench

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (9): 2 Gray
ipofanes (7): 1 White
Kirian (5): 2 Yellow, 2 Black
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Brown, 1 Blue: 5, 4
2 Green, Clear a city: 6, 3
1 White, Clear a city: 7, 3, 6
2 Gray, Clear a city: 7, 6



Jimmmmm's turn.

[Jimmmmm]

Bid 2 on 2 Brown, 1 Blue
Bid 3 on 1 White, Clear a City
Bid 3 on 2 Gray, Clear a City

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (9): 2 Gray
ipofanes (7): 1 White
Kirian (5): 2 Yellow, 2 Black
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Brown, 1 Blue: 5, 6
2 Green, Clear a city: 6, 3
1 White, Clear a city: 7, 3, 9
2 Gray, Clear a city: 7, 9

(Map same as previous turn.)

XerxesPraelor's turn.

[XerxesPraelor]

8 on two green/ clear a city

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (9): 2 Gray
ipofanes (7): 1 White
Kirian (5): 2 Yellow, 2 Black
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Brown, 1 Blue: 5, 6
2 Green, Clear a city: 6, 3, 8
1 White, Clear a city: 7, 3, 9
2 Gray, Clear a city: 7, 9

(Map same as previous turn.)

ipofanes's turn.

[scott_pilgrim]

Just a reminder, since this may become relevant soon:

Players each have 30 total bidding tokens.  When a player runs out of tokens he cannot use the bid action until he gets them back.  (This limit exists both for practicality purposes IRL and to ensure that no bidding war goes on forever.)

[ipofanes]

I suspected that the game is about the sunk cost fallacy.

Bid 5 on 2 Grey, clear a city
Bid 3 on 1 White, clear a city

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (9): 2 Gray
ipofanes (7): 1 White
Kirian (5): 2 Yellow, 2 Black
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Brown, 1 Blue: 5, 6
2 Green, Clear a city: 6, 3, 8
1 White, Clear a city: 10, 3, 9
2 Gray, Clear a city: 12, 9

(Map same as previous turn.)

Kirian's turn.

[Kirian]

Bid 2 on Brown/Blue.
Move to Sarai
Sell.

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (9): 2 Gray
ipofanes (7): 1 White
Kirian (13): 1 Yellow, 2 Black
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Brown, 1 Blue: 7, 6
2 Green, Clear a city: 6, 3, 8
1 White, Clear a city: 10, 3, 9
2 Gray, Clear a city: 12, 9



Jimmmmm's turn.

[Jimmmmm]

ipofanes, spending all our tokens on two pairs is not going to help either one of us. If I leave you the 1 White, will you leave me the 2 Grays?

[ipofanes]

ipofanes, spending all our tokens on two pairs is not going to help either one of us. If I leave you the 1 White, will you leave me the 2 Grays?

My bidding behavious suggested rather going vice versa. Could you settle for that?

[Kirian]

scott_pilgrim, if you pitch this elsewhere, make sure to consider rules about table talk, deals, etc...

[Jimmmmm]

ipofanes, spending all our tokens on two pairs is not going to help either one of us. If I leave you the 1 White, will you leave me the 2 Grays?

My bidding behavious suggested rather going vice versa. Could you settle for that?

No, I want the 2 Gray. Deal or No Deal?

[Jimmmmm]

scott_pilgrim, if you pitch this elsewhere, make sure to consider rules about table talk, deals, etc...

Obviously nothing is binding. At this stage I could see ipofanes and me continuing to outbid each other until we run out of tokens, at which point one of us will have to choose which one to commit to and we will have wasted heaps of actions.

[ipofanes]

Deal.

I don't see the game impaired by table talk, deals, alliances, or ganging up ("you contest his 2 Whites while I outbid him at the 2 Greys"), but it is up to our playtesting to set up cases scott_pilgrim may base his verdict on.

[Jimmmmm]

Bid 4 on 2 Brown, 1 Blue
Bid 4 on 2 Gray, Clear a City

[scott_pilgrim]

Yeah, at least for this game I'm not going to prohibit that sort of thing since it's not already in the rules.  The game is not really intended to be political and I may end up looking for some other kind of solution to the problem of really long bidding wars later, but for now it's fine to keep playing like this.

[scott_pilgrim]

XerxesPraelor wins 2 Green, Clear a city.  1 Blue, 1 Gray comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (9): 2 Gray, 2 Green
ipofanes (7): 1 White
Kirian (13): 1 Yellow, 2 Black
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Brown, 1 Blue: 7, 10
1 Blue, 1 Gray:
1 White, Clear a city: 10, 3, 9
2 Gray, Clear a city: 12, 13

(Map same as previous turn.)

XerxesPraelor's turn.  (Choose a city to clear before taking actions)

[Jimmmmm]

Yeah, at least for this game I'm not going to prohibit that sort of thing since it's not already in the rules.  The game is not really intended to be political and I may end up looking for some other kind of solution to the problem of really long bidding wars later, but for now it's fine to keep playing like this.

One suggestion would be to allow you to do something else with the tokens you've bid. Right now I'm losing more than an entire turn's worth of tokens on 1 White, Clear a City. Before my turn my two options were to continue to fight for it or make a deal. It may be good if there was a third option, a way I could pull out of the bidding war and still benefit from the tokens I've committed to it.

[Kirian]

Yeah, at least for this game I'm not going to prohibit that sort of thing since it's not already in the rules.  The game is not really intended to be political and I may end up looking for some other kind of solution to the problem of really long bidding wars later, but for now it's fine to keep playing like this.

Yes, obviously you wouldn't change it for this game!  I'm just making suggestions since this is a playtest after all.

[ipofanes]

As for a game which is not political, it has a couple of elements that political games have (bidding in rounds, territory and delivering). At the moment I a noticing that the number of tokens for sale does not increase, thus a bidding war will block sale spots for everyone. That's why I did not mind the bidding war too much so far. It's not as if everybody else is grabbing tokens left and right. Maybe one cound introduce a mechanism to add another token after a complete stalemate round.

[ipofanes]

Yeah, at least for this game I'm not going to prohibit that sort of thing since it's not already in the rules.  The game is not really intended to be political and I may end up looking for some other kind of solution to the problem of really long bidding wars later, but for now it's fine to keep playing like this.

Yes, obviously you wouldn't change it for this game!  I'm just making suggestions since this is a playtest after all.

I wouldn't mind if the rules were changed over the course of the game, even for fixing "you are not playing as intended" situations. We are the gunea-pigs after all.

[XerxesPraelor]

Clear Mathura
8 on 1 blue, 1 grey

[XerxesPraelor]

Also, I'm worried I found a winning strategy.  Just keep on bidding 8 on whatever comes up over and over again.

[Jimmmmm]

Also, I'm worried I found a winning strategy.  Just keep on bidding 8 on whatever comes up over and over again.

Yeah, that sounds pretty solid.

[Jimmmmm]

Maybe there should be a limit on how much you can beat the previous bid by (or 0 if no one has previously bid).

[XerxesPraelor]

Or you can bid maximum one on a set of cubes that just came out.

[XerxesPraelor]

Another solution is making the new set come out after your turn, but that might introduce a lot of politics .

[Kirian]

Or just make ties no longer wins.

[scott_pilgrim]

Also, I'm worried I found a winning strategy.  Just keep on bidding 8 on whatever comes up over and over again.

Yeah, that sounds pretty solid.

The intent was that if you did this, you would be late to the party and all the other players who had been selling their cubes all game would have covered up all the high-VP slots on the board.  However, this may not be enough to counter the strategy for several reasons: 1. the "clear a city" cards make it possible to still get access to some of the good spots, 2. there may be too many cities on the board that not all the good spots will get taken, and 3. if it turns out to be best to spend all your action points bidding every turn anyway, then it is probably best to spend them all on one card.

Anyway, thanks a lot for all the suggestions and feedback everyone!  I will be thinking about it some more and if it looks like there is in fact a broken strategy I may end up patching some rules mid-game if no one minds, but I would like to see it play out for a bit longer first.

[scott_pilgrim]

ipofanes wins 1 White, Clear a city.  1 Wild, 1 Red comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (9): 2 Gray, 2 Green
ipofanes (7): 2 White
Kirian (13): 1 Yellow, 2 Black
Jimmmmm (0):

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Brown, 1 Blue: 7, 10
1 Blue, 1 Gray: 8
1 Wild, 1 Red:
2 Gray, Clear a city: 12, 13



ipofanes's turn.  (Choose a city to clear before taking actions)

[ipofanes]

clear Buchara
bid 8 on new tile (Red/Wild)

[Kirian]

Sell
Bid 5 more on Brown/Blue.

[scott_pilgrim]

Jimmmmm wins 2 Gray, Clear a city.  1 Black, 1 Black comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (9): 2 Gray, 2 Green
ipofanes (7): 2 White
Kirian (18): 2 Black
Jimmmmm (0): 2 Gray

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Brown, 1 Blue: 12, 10
1 Blue, 1 Gray: 8
1 Wild, 1 Red: 8
2 Black:



Jimmmmm's turn.  (Choose a city to clear before taking actions)

[Jimmmmm]

Rules question: Can you choose to clear a city which is already clear?

Regardless, Clear Gerrha

Bid 3 on 2 Brown, 1 Blue
Bid 5 on 2 Black

[scott_pilgrim]

XerxesPraelor wins 1 Blue, 1 Gray.  1 Gray, 2 White comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (9): 3 Gray, 2 Green, 1 Blue
ipofanes (7): 2 White
Kirian (18): 2 Black
Jimmmmm (0): 2 Gray

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Brown, 1 Blue: 12, 13
2 White, 1 Gray:
1 Wild, 1 Red: 8
2 Black: 5



XerxesPraelor's turn.

[scott_pilgrim]

Rules question: Can you choose to clear a city which is already clear?

Yes

[XerxesPraelor]

That's unlucky. Eight on two black.

[ipofanes]

travel to Kashgar
sell
what am I to do but
2 on 2 White, one Grey

[scott_pilgrim]

ipofanes wins 1 Wild, 1 Red.  2 Red, 1 Green comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (9): 3 Gray, 2 Green, 1 Blue
ipofanes (10): 1 White, 1 Red, 1 ??
Kirian (18): 2 Black
Jimmmmm (0): 2 Gray

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 Brown, 1 Blue: 12, 13
2 White, 1 Gray: 2
2 Red, 1 Green:
2 Black: 5, 8



Kirian's turn.

[scott_pilgrim]

ipofanes, you were supposed to have chosen what color to take the wild as.

[ipofanes]

ipofanes, you were supposed to have chosen what color to take the wild as.

oh, can't I wait till I hit Nara before I decide?

ok, Black it is.

[Kirian]

Gah

Move to Byzantium
Sell for 13

[scott_pilgrim]

Jimmmmm wins 2 Brown, 1 Blue.  1 Yellow, 1 Green comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (9): 3 Gray, 2 Green, 1 Blue
ipofanes (10): 1 White, 1 Red, 1 Black
Kirian (31): 1 Black
Jimmmmm (0): 2 Gray, 2 Brown, 1 Blue

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Yellow, 1 Green:
2 White, 1 Gray: 2
2 Red, 1 Green:
2 Black: 5, 8



Jimmmmm's turn.

[XerxesPraelor]

Is it my turn or Jimmm's?

[Jimmmmm]

Sorry, looks like it's mine.

Sell in Gerrha
Bid 5 on 2 Red, 1 Green

[scott_pilgrim]

XerxesPraelor wins 2 Black.  2 Yellow, 1 Blue comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (9): 3 Gray, 2 Green, 2 Black, 1 Blue
ipofanes (10): 1 White, 1 Red, 1 Black
Kirian (31): 1 Black
Jimmmmm (6): 2 Gray, 2 Brown

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Yellow, 1 Green:
2 White, 1 Gray: 2
2 Red, 1 Green: 5
2 Yellow, 1 Blue:



XerxesPraelor's turn.

[scott_pilgrim]

Is it my turn or Jimmm's?

Sorry, I forgot to update the thread title, but now it really is your turn

[XerxesPraelor]

move to Antioch, sell a grey, move to tyre, 3 on 2 yellow, 1 blue

[scott_pilgrim]

ipofanes wins 2 White, 1 Gray.  2 Wild, 1 Red comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (14): 2 Gray, 2 Green, 2 Black, 1 Blue
ipofanes (10): 3 White, 1 Red, 1 Black, 1 Gray
Kirian (31): 1 Black
Jimmmmm (6): 2 Gray, 2 Brown

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Yellow, 1 Green:
2 Wild, 1 Red:
2 Red, 1 Green: 5
2 Yellow, 1 Blue: 3



ipofanes's turn.

[XerxesPraelor]

Whoa, that's an amazing possibility. You should definitely just claim it. (Don't let Kirian get it)

[Kirian]

Yeah.  The whole "Bid 8 on this new one, I win it on my next turn, bid 8 on the new one" thing is going to get old really fast.

Edit:  I'll rephrase.  This is a rule that must be changed.

[Jimmmmm]

Yeah.  The whole "Bid 8 on this new one, I win it on my next turn, bid 8 on the new one" thing is going to get old really fast.

Of course, at least it doesn't result in drawn-out bidding wars.

[XerxesPraelor]

I think limiting the starting bid to 1 might work.

[scott_pilgrim]

I think limiting the starting bid to 1 might work.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but maybe it would work if the rule was you can only bid up to x more than another player's highest bid on a card (counting no bids as bids of 0), maybe with x=2 or 3 or 4.

Or even, just not have players win on ties would probably eliminate the problem.  Actually that's how it was at first, but I think I had thought that that would lead to problems with long bidding wars, but now I think the solution to that problem is even more of a problem (i.e. it's worse that bidding 8 on a card means you auto-win that card than it is that the bidding war goes on a long time).  You could still auto-win cards if they come up at the right time (because of the 30 bidding token limit), but it would cost you 4-ish turns and not just 1; but that also makes it frustrating for a player who competes with you, and it may not ever be the correct play to bid 8 on something after someone has bid 8 on it since they can forced-win it if they really want to.


Thanks again for the comments.  Would anyone be opposed to me imposing a rule of "You can't outbid another player by more than 3" starting now?  I don't think it really helps or hurts anyone in particular right now.

[Jimmmmm]

You could have some action that requires being taken on many turns otherwise a player will risk falling behind.

[ipofanes]

Hmm I prefer to play for best rank for myself instead of ganging up on the leader (and end up being the only one in the gang).

But anyway:

Travel to Turfan
sell
bid 1 on one red, two wild

Happy?

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (14): 2 Gray, 2 Green, 2 Black, 1 Blue
ipofanes (19): 3 White, 1 Black, 1 Gray
Kirian (31): 1 Black
Jimmmmm (6): 2 Gray, 2 Brown

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Yellow, 1 Green:
2 Wild, 1 Red: 1
2 Red, 1 Green: 5
2 Yellow, 1 Blue: 3



Kirian's turn.

[Kirian]

Sorry to have neglected this.

4 on Wild/Red (max overbid is now 3, right?)
1 on Yellow/Green
Sell for 9 points

[scott_pilgrim]

Just posting to say I won't be able to update this for a while, I'm busy for at least the next few days.

[ipofanes]

We can't stop Kirian anyway, can we.

[Kirian]

We can't stop Kirian anyway, can we.

?

I don't have an insurmountable lead... not when we go to 100.

[ipofanes]

My bad, thought it was 45, it's 75 instead.

[scott_pilgrim]

Sorry for the delay.

Jimmmmm wins 2 Red, 1 Green.  1 Brown, 1 Blue comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (14): 2 Gray, 2 Green, 2 Black, 1 Blue
ipofanes (19): 3 White, 1 Black, 1 Gray
Kirian (40):
Jimmmmm (6): 2 Gray, 2 Brown, 2 Red, 1 Green

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Yellow, 1 Green: 1
2 Wild, 1 Red: 1, 4
1 Brown, 1 Blue:
2 Yellow, 1 Blue: 3



Jimmmmm's turn.

[scott_pilgrim]

(max overbid is now 3, right?)

Yes

[Kirian]

Bump!

[Kirian]

And yet another ka-bump!  Jimmmmm are you there?

[XerxesPraelor]

Bump again.

[Jimmmmm]

Sorry everyone!!

Move to Mecca
Sell
Bid 1 on 1 Brown, 1 Blue

[scott_pilgrim]

Whoa, I completely forgot about this.  Just a reminder, we are now playing with a rule of "You can't outbid other players by more than 3".


XerxesPraelor wins 2 Yellow, 1 Blue.  1 Gray, Clear a City comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (14): 2 Gray, 2 Green, 2 Black, 2 Blue, 2 Yellow
ipofanes (19): 3 White, 1 Black, 1 Gray
Kirian (40):
Jimmmmm (18): 2 Gray, 1 Brown, 2 Red, 1 Green

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Yellow, 1 Green: 1
2 Wild, 1 Red: 1, 4
1 Brown, 1 Blue: 1
1 Gray, Clear a city:



XerxesPraelor's turn.

[XerxesPraelor]

7 on 2 wild, 1 red

1 on 1 Grey, Clear a city

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (14): 2 Gray, 2 Green, 2 Black, 2 Blue, 2 Yellow
ipofanes (19): 3 White, 1 Black, 1 Gray
Kirian (40):
Jimmmmm (18): 2 Gray, 1 Brown, 2 Red, 1 Green

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Yellow, 1 Green: 1
2 Wild, 1 Red: 1, 4, 7
1 Brown, 1 Blue: 1
1 Gray, Clear a city: 1

(Map same as previous turn.)

ipofanes's turn.

[ipofanes]

Move to Lhasa, sell grey.

[scott_pilgrim]

Kirian wins 1 Yellow, 1 Green.  1 Red, 1 White comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (14): 2 Gray, 2 Green, 2 Black, 2 Blue, 2 Yellow
ipofanes (23): 3 White, 1 Black
Kirian (40): 1 Yellow, 1 Green
Jimmmmm (18): 2 Gray, 1 Brown, 2 Red, 1 Green

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Red, 1 White:
2 Wild, 1 Red: 1, 4, 7
1 Brown, 1 Blue: 1
1 Gray, Clear a city: 1



Kirian's turn.

[Kirian]

6 more on Wild/Red, 2 on Grey/Clear

[scott_pilgrim]

Jimmmmm wins 1 Brown, 1 Blue.  1 Brown, 1 Green comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (14): 2 Gray, 2 Green, 2 Black, 2 Blue, 2 Yellow
ipofanes (23): 3 White, 1 Black
Kirian (40): 1 Yellow, 1 Green
Jimmmmm (18): 2 Gray, 2 Brown, 2 Red, 1 Green, 1 Blue

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Red, 1 White:
2 Wild, 1 Red: 1, 10, 7
1 Brown, 1 Green:
1 Gray, Clear a city: 1, 2

(Map same as previous turn.)

Jimmmmm's turn.

[Jimmmmm]

Sell
Sell
Bid 1 on 1 Red, 1 White
Bid 1 on 1 Brown, 1 Green

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (14): 2 Gray, 2 Green, 2 Black, 2 Blue, 2 Yellow
ipofanes (23): 3 White, 1 Black
Kirian (40): 1 Yellow, 1 Green
Jimmmmm (30): 2 Gray, 2 Red, 1 Green, 1 Blue

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Red, 1 White: 1
2 Wild, 1 Red: 1, 10, 7
1 Brown, 1 Green: 1
1 Gray, Clear a city: 1, 2



XerxesPraelor's turn.

[XerxesPraelor]

6 on 2 wild, 2 red
2 on 1 red, clear a city

[scott_pilgrim]

6 on 2 wild, 2 red
2 on 1 red, clear a city

Do you mean "1 red, 1 white" or "1 gray, clear a city" for the second one?

[XerxesPraelor]

Grey

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (14): 2 Gray, 2 Green, 2 Black, 2 Blue, 2 Yellow
ipofanes (23): 3 White, 1 Black
Kirian (40): 1 Yellow, 1 Green
Jimmmmm (30): 2 Gray, 2 Red, 1 Green, 1 Blue

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Red, 1 White: 1
2 Wild, 1 Red: 1, 10, 13
1 Brown, 1 Green: 1
1 Gray, Clear a city: 3, 2

(Map same as previous turn.)

ipofanes's turn.

[ipofanes]

Bid 8 on 1 Brown, 1 Green

[scott_pilgrim]

Bid 8 on 1 Brown, 1 Green

Just a reminder, we are now playing with a rule of "You can't outbid other players by more than 3".

[ipofanes]

ok then.

2 on Brown, Green
travel to Xining
sell white

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (14): 2 Gray, 2 Green, 2 Black, 2 Blue, 2 Yellow
ipofanes (27): 2 White, 1 Black
Kirian (40): 1 Yellow, 1 Green
Jimmmmm (30): 2 Gray, 2 Red, 1 Green, 1 Blue

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Red, 1 White: 1
2 Wild, 1 Red: 1, 10, 13
1 Brown, 1 Green: 1, 2
1 Gray, Clear a city: 3, 2



Kirian's turn.

[Kirian]

6 on Wild/Red.
Move to Antioch

[scott_pilgrim]

Jimmmmm wins 1 Red, 1 White.  (Re-shuffle) 1 Blue, Clear a city comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (14): 2 Gray, 2 Green, 2 Black, 2 Blue, 2 Yellow
ipofanes (27): 2 White, 1 Black
Kirian (40): 1 Yellow, 1 Green
Jimmmmm (30): 2 Gray, 3 Red, 1 Green, 1 Blue, 1 White

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Blue, Clear a city:
2 Wild, 1 Red: 1, 16, 13
1 Brown, 1 Green: 1, 2
1 Gray, Clear a city: 3, 2



Jimmmmm's turn.

[Jimmmmm]

Move to Alexandria
Bid 3 on 1 Brown, 1 Green
Bid 2 on 1 Blue, Clear a city

[scott_pilgrim]

XerxesPraelor wins 1 Gray, Clear a city.  2 Blue, 1 Green comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (14): 3 Gray, 2 Green, 2 Black, 2 Blue, 2 Yellow
ipofanes (27): 2 White, 1 Black
Kirian (40): 1 Yellow, 1 Green
Jimmmmm (30): 2 Gray, 3 Red, 1 Green, 1 Blue, 1 White

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Blue, Clear a city: 2
2 Wild, 1 Red: 1, 16, 13
1 Brown, 1 Green: 4, 2
2 Blue, 1 Green:



XerxesPraelor's turn.  (Remember to choose a city to clear.)

[XerxesPraelor]

Clear Byzantium

5 on 2 wild, 1 red

Sell Green

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (21): 3 Gray, 1 Green, 2 Black, 2 Blue, 2 Yellow
ipofanes (27): 2 White, 1 Black
Kirian (40): 1 Yellow, 1 Green
Jimmmmm (30): 2 Gray, 3 Red, 1 Green, 1 Blue, 1 White

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Blue, Clear a city: 2
2 Wild, 1 Red: 1, 16, 18
1 Brown, 1 Green: 4, 2
2 Blue, 1 Green:



ipofanes's turn.

[ipofanes]

Bid 5 on 1 Brown, 1 Green.

Bid 3 on 2 Blue, 1 Green.

[scott_pilgrim]

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (21): 3 Gray, 1 Green, 2 Black, 2 Blue, 2 Yellow
ipofanes (27): 2 White, 1 Black
Kirian (40): 1 Yellow, 1 Green
Jimmmmm (30): 2 Gray, 3 Red, 1 Green, 1 Blue, 1 White

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
1 Blue, Clear a city: 2
2 Wild, 1 Red: 1, 16, 18
1 Brown, 1 Green: 4, 7
2 Blue, 1 Green: 3

(Map same as previous turn.)

Kirian's turn.

[Kirian]

4 more on Wild/Red.
Move to Rhagae, Mon.

[scott_pilgrim]

Jimmmmm wins 1 Blue, Clear a city.  2 White, 1 Gray comes up.

Player (VP): Cubes
XerxesPraelor (21): 3 Gray, 1 Green, 2 Black, 2 Blue, 2 Yellow
ipofanes (27): 2 White, 1 Black
Kirian (40): 1 Yellow, 1 Green
Jimmmmm (30): 2 Gray, 3 Red, 1 Green, 2 Blue, 1 White

Available card pairs: Bidding tokens (in player colors)
2 White, 1 Gray:
2 Wild, 1 Red: 1, 20, 18
1 Brown, 1 Green: 4, 7
2 Blue, 1 Green: 3



Jimmmmm's turn.  (Remember to choose a city to clear.)

[Jimmmmm]

Is negotiation allowed?

[scott_pilgrim]

Is negotiation allowed?

Yes (though ideally optimal play would not require negotiation, but that's probably not the case, at least as the game is now)

[XerxesPraelor]

Bump