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[A Drowned Kernel]

Is it a cunning plan?

[ashersky]

So, the mafia have 2 NK mechanisms, right?  There's priming and hoping the detonator guy doesn't die, and then there's the hot potato.

Town controls the Mafia's nightly NK.  We should determine, every day, who will die that night.  Anyone who refuses to be the night kill is scum.

Remember, per the open setup, we're all just VTs with two identical, useless items.  Like, two pieces of paper is crap.  No town member should have objections to dying at night.

Basically, we can all decide/vote on who should be the NK.  If they protest too much, SCUM and we lynch them.  If they don't protest, but DON'T die, SCUM and we lynch them the next day (because that means mafia chose NOT to send the potato out, or that person received the potato and passed it).

Remember, the person holding the potato has the power to hold onto it and die.  We choose who dies, mafia gives them the potato, they die.  We are taking power away from mafia, controlling who we lose each night.  We also force mafia into positions they don't like with the daily NK discussion.

They'll be caught during the day if they fight, caught at night if they don't die.

--CAVEAT:  Mafia can no kill on purpose to frame a towny for not dying.  That's still an awfully slow way to get your NKs through, so I'm not worried about it.

[ashersky]

ALSO!  The person who agrees to die can still give items away before they die.

[ashersky]

Also ALSO!  We could even no lynch on occasion to use the plan.  Slows the mislynches down by just having voluntary NK deaths.

[A Drowned Kernel]

That's rather ruthless. But interesting. If we go through with it, how does scum respond? By just playing along and letting us pick the night kill? It does make the arsonist more powerful, since they have more information on who to prime.

[ashersky]

That's rather ruthless. But interesting. If we go through with it, how does scum respond? By just playing along and letting us pick the night kill? It does make the arsonist more powerful, since they have more information on who to prime.

Right.  But, well, at some point we'll choose mafia as the nightkill, and no matter how they play it, they'll be caught somehow.

As for the priming thing, that's tough anyway.  Unless we hit the detonator guy with a lynch, we're basically toast on N3.  If we're hoping that the random potato tossing lands on the mafia's primed target each night, that's just wishful thinking.

[A Drowned Kernel]

The plan does eliminate the possibility that mafia could be killed by the hot potato bomb, too. But maybe that was a low possibility anyway?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Of course, scum could avoid getting themselves picked, just like they can avoid getting themselves lynched. But two lynches a day for town rather than a lynch and a nightkill is certainly an improvement over the normal state of things.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Of course, in the scenario where this is scum!ash proposing this plan, then it's just mafia trying to take back control of the semi-random nightkill, because ash is easily charismatic enough to control discussion of who gets picked for it.

[ashersky]

Of course, in the scenario where this is scum!ash proposing this plan, then it's just mafia trying to take back control of the semi-random nightkill, because ash is easily charismatic enough to control discussion of who gets picked for it.

I'll die first if that helps.

[ashersky]

The plan does eliminate the possibility that mafia could be killed by the hot potato bomb, too. But maybe that was a low possibility anyway?

Mafia will be smart enough to be sure to be around before the potato deadline.

[yuma]

yeah... not super excited by this plan. I guess I get the point, but basically it just turns a lynch into  NK (which is what I think we should do if we do it) except that it is potentially  manipulatable by scum just like a lynch is... but even more so if you put on the "if X doesn't die, then lynch them the next day" restriction.

I do imagine some sort of coordination is required for the hot potato, but I am not convinced that this is the best route to use

mostly I just don't like it because it manipulates the game state away from what I imagine was originally intended, but ash and I have had this conversation a bunch of times and I don't think either of us are super interested in having it again...

[ashersky]

mostly I just don't like it because it manipulates the game state away from what I imagine was originally intended, but ash and I have had this conversation a bunch of times and I don't think either of us are super interested in having it again...

But we can...this is the problem with open setups.  They are inviting you to "break" them.  I'm not breaking the setup with my potato plan, though (as you and I agree generally on not liking setups to be broken, but instead fixed), just turning the tables on scum as best we can.

We definitely should control the potato.  There's no conceivable argument (to me) for a town member to NOT want control over the potato.  The potato is dangerous, and we should do everything we can to minimize the damage.

My plan, or a variation that is acceptable to all, does that.  I am, as always, open to revisions and suggestions.  But just blithely ignoring the potato (which I'm not suggesting you are doing) is just bad town play.  The setup allows for us to manipulate the potato, so we should.

[Witherweaver]

You mean we vote for a night kill and a lynch every day, unless we decide no lynch is better for whatever reason? So day 1, do we lynch too?

[ashersky]

INNOVATION 2
Order of action resolution:
Resolving when received, which must be before 6 hour mark (or time designated by mod):
Defuser (this order may be submitted before day ends)
Send Hot Potato Bomb (this order may be submitted before day ends)

Resolving at 24 hour mark:
Send items
Send Message with item
Embezzle

Resolving at 70 hour mark:
Last Bomb recipient
Exaggeration
Send Message (without item)

Resolving at 72 hour mark:
Make powers
Send Message (without item)
Block: Dazzling Light, Cryptographer, Security Guard
Protect: Stealth, Firefighter
Prime/Ignite/Accelerant
Investigate: Be/Impersonate Police Officer, Reconnaissance, Spy, Telescope, Binoculars

Hot Potato resolution:
Protect: Defuser, Bounce, Privacy Curtain
Subterfuge
Receive
Send

So, we should look at this as well.  The idea of full item claims should be taken into consideration.  The sending of items happens before dying/blocking/anything, so mafia cannot surely remove items from the game based on our claims.

There's also the potato powers.  Subterfuge doesn't affect the plan, but bounce does.  So does Privacy Curtain.  So we'd need town to NOT make these items.

[ashersky]

You mean we vote for a night kill and a lynch every day, unless we decide no lynch is better for whatever reason? So day 1, do we lynch too?

Right.  It'd be a town decision on whether we lynch or not.  yuma sounds like he prefers to no lynch if we decide the nightkill.

Remember, if we do nothing about the NKs, on N2, we could be like this:

D1, mislynch, 8 v 3
N1, NK, 7 v 3
D2, mislynch, 6 v 3
N2, NK, 5 v 3; primed explosion, 4 v 3
D3, LYLO

Then, even if we lynch the Arsonist, the backup gets to start over.  But it won't matter, as we'll be at LYLO for the rest of the game.

All told, we're screwed.  At least we can control stuff.

Another option is to claim potato protection and ask for the potato.

[ashersky]

Like, if you have a privacy curtain and receive the potato once, it just doesn't explode?

[A Drowned Kernel]

The plan does eliminate the possibility that mafia could be killed by the hot potato bomb, too. But maybe that was a low possibility anyway?

Mafia will be smart enough to be sure to be around before the potato deadline.

But the bomb blows up automatically if it's sent to the same person twice, which could happen to mafia (though very unlikely). I agree that some sort of town plan on how to handle the bomb is a good idea, and it can always be revised on a day-by-day basis. Maybe we form a chain, where everyone agrees to send it to a specific person if they get it, then we use who dies as information as to where the bomb started?

PPE: That last bit ash mentions would probably require some item coordination, which is something else we should maybe talk about.

[ashersky]

Like, if you have a privacy curtain and receive the potato once, it just doesn't explode?

Yeah, the item description says "you need to receive it 3 times for it to explode."  The item description doesn't mention what happens if the Privacy Curtain person is the last person holding the bomb.

EFHW, if the last person holding the bomb has a Privacy Curtain, can they choose to have it explode, and then the explosion is blocked by the Curtain?

I'm assuming no, as that just beats the potato every single time.

[ashersky]

But the bomb blows up automatically if it's sent to the same person twice, which could happen to mafia (though very unlikely). I agree that some sort of town plan on how to handle the bomb is a good idea, and it can always be revised on a day-by-day basis. Maybe we form a chain, where everyone agrees to send it to a specific person if they get it, then we use who dies as information as to where the bomb started?

This is a good point.  The bomb explodes on second receipt OR at the end of the night.  I was thinking of the second option as the best way to control things (i.e., ashersky will die N1, whomever receives the potato tonight, target ashersky; ashersky just holds onto it until the end of the night and lets it explode).

The chain idea is nice, if someone better at that stuff can figure it out.  Like, we have 11 players alive on N1 (assuming a lynch).

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11

Whomever gets the potato first passes to the next person on the list.  The next day, if someone's alive and didn't get the potato ever, we can narrow down where it may have been tossed to in the line, but doesn't tell us who sent it.

Plus, scum can just manipulate it if the list is known.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I guess what the chain does is gives mafia direct control of the NK, but also gives us information about who they sent it to? Is that actually useful? The NK is almost always going to be the person they sent it to first anyway, because whenever mafia gets sent the bomb they're going to send it to the original recipient to ensure an explosion.

[ashersky]

I guess what the chain does is gives mafia direct control of the NK, but also gives us information about who they sent it to? Is that actually useful? The NK is almost always going to be the person they sent it to first anyway, because whenever mafia gets sent the bomb they're going to send it to the original recipient to ensure an explosion.

Good point.  Decided the NK ahead of time and having whomever gets the bomb first just send it to that person is the best way to ensure town control over the kill.

[pingpongsam]

I am confused.

I volunteer to be the first NK. So, how, exactly, do we make scum NK me?

[Archetype]

Hi everyone! I helped design this setup - so I'm really excited to play it!!

So, I think ashersky's plan works...to an extent. I think there is just too many variables (namely the Arsonist) that can throw it out of wack. I do think we, as a Town, should try our best to control the bomb. I don't think that a chain or ordering is the best way to do it - it's too manipulatable by scum. Like I said, there are too many variables too to have someone lynched the next day if something doen't go right during the night. I do think we should decide, as a Town, the day beforehand 2 people we'd want to give the bomb to if we're handed it. It alerts scum, but Town can get the Defuser or Bounce to prove their Towniness.

My plan involves the IC. I think that we should give him a 1-shot Fireproof ASAP. I'm even willing to hand out supplies to anyone who needs them. The IC is a prime (heh) target for the Arsonist and and I think we can prevent it with the Fireproofs. There is, however, the Cryptographer. So I'm not sure how to correctly do it.

Also: if someone gets an Investigative result (Watcher/Tracker/Voyeur/Followe), claim it immediatly. Especially in the early game, scum has no way to replicate these results and claiming it immediatly should confirm you as Town.

[ashersky]

I am confused.

I volunteer to be the first NK. So, how, exactly, do we make scum NK me?

Scum has to throw out the potato to someone.  Whomever receive it throws it to you.  You just hold it, and let it explode at the end of the night.  That's it.

The only way I see that scum can manipulate this is to not throw out the potato at all.  But then, hey, no night kill and at worst a mislynch of the volunteer the next day.