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mail-mi, for the subject

8 (61.5%)

delirious Deleuze, against the subject

5 (38.5%)

Total Members Voted: 13

Voting closed: June 01, 2014, 07:37:47 pm

[ashersky]

As part of a forum mafia game, we are having a debate!

mail-mi will argue for the subject.
DD will argue against the subject.

Each player will make one, and only one, post for their argument.  Afterward, I will open a poll for anyone to vote.

Thanks!


P.S. - this was going to be in RSP, but I expect howls of indignation.  Bonus argument: RSP posters are way too sensitive.  Both players may argue for the subject.

[mail-mi]

SCOUT IS THE WORST CARD IN DOMINION.

That's right, the oft-made-fun-of, oft-jokingly-called-overpowered, and oft-joked-about card Scout is actually the worst card in Dominion. There are a few reasons:

1) In absence of hybrid victory cards, Scout does nothing for your current turn.

Actually, it actively hurts your current turn. When you play it, you are left with 4 cards in hand besides all the useless victory cards you may or may not draw with it. It gives no monetary bonus, no extra even-possibly-good cards, nada. Now, you might say, "Tactician does nothing for your current turn either." That's true, however, through multiple games, it has been proven that one amazing turn is better (most of the time) than two mediocre turns. And, you can't discard any of the other bad cards with scout like curses or coppers. With Cartographer, it still does almost nothing for the current turn (except it's a cantrip so it doesn't hurt), you can discard curses, coppers, and victory cards. Scout just takes those useless victory cards into your hand.

2) When scout is at its best, it's too late to spend $4 on it.

In the mid-game, in a good engine with even a little bit of trashing, scout does nothing except rearrange the top four cards of your deck, because there are no victory cards in your deck at all. And when your deck is bloated with victory cards, enough to make scout useful-ish, it's too late to spend $4 on a card that you'll probably only see once or maybe even not at all. You'd be better off spending that $4 on a Silver that might help you reach a province later, or even an estate.

3) Even with hybrid victory cards, Scout isn't worth the $4 you spend on it.

It would be much more useful to spend that $4 on a Silver or separate engine piece. And the kingdoms where Scout is in the kingdom with Great Hall/Nobles/Harem/Island, and the Scout/Hybrid Victory engine is the best strategy, and there isn't a better engine piece at $4, are very rare.

"What about the other bad cards, mail-mi?"

All of them have better uses than scout.
Thief--Very effective against chapeled or heavily trashed down BM decks, and very useful in 4 player
Transmute--Can be useful if you miss that $3P for a Familiar on your second shuffle.
Duchess--It's a free terminal silver. Can always be useful in the late game.
Pirate Ship--Robz may disagree, but Pirate Ship has its uses. Check the "Robz vs. Pirate Ship" thread for a couple of examples.

Scout is the worst card in dominion. Period.

[AndrewisFTTW]

/tag

[shraeye]

taggy tag

[Voltaire]

/tag

[Delirious Deleuze]

I'm not as versed in this, so I'm probably not going to go far here...

I just got to prove that scout's not the worst.

1) It was designed to be used to be used with dual treasure cards. Great Halls, Nobles, Harems. All these work great in combination with scout. If crossroads in on the board, this strategy is obvious.

But even if the kingdom doesn't have crossroads or dual victory cards. It can be used in combination with tunnel and any discard card.

It is also priceless in alt VP games where (like Silk Road, etc.) gaining cheap victory cards is huge.

2) It's also a great defense against attacks like Fortune Teller, Spy, Bureaucrat, Pirate Ship, Scrying pool, etc. This is especially true against Rabble which could hurt not only your hand then, but it could give you a hand of 3 victory cards which sucks.

3) If you have Baron or Tournaments on the board, scout can be used to get the right victory cards to make them go off.

No I don't have to prove it'll always be bought, or that it'll be useful a lot, just that it's not the worst.

There are a lot of worse cards.

1) Treasure map. It requires you buy multiple in the early game, and by the time it can go off which would be at least turn 5, if you're really lucky. And in that time you're opponent would be building up a deck. Even when it goes off, late in the game, it'll just give you 4 gold, which later in the game is comparatively worse than having a very efficient engine, a lot of minions, etc. etc.

2) Transmute.

Even if you start for this right away, you can get it at best at turn 3, and use it first at turn 5, if you're lucky. Then it can only give you more transmute, a gold, or a duchy. All of which are a shitty trash use with a mild upside of maybe getting a gold (which still aren't great by the time you get them) or duchies or transmutes, which all clog your deck even more. At the very best, scout is more useful than transmute.

[ashersky]

Thanks to the debaters.  The thread will lock for 24 hours and a poll will go up.

After the voting period ends, the thread will reopen for discussion as desired.

[ashersky]

Unlock for discussion.

[mail-mi]

yay!

[theorel]

I think DD got hit by his unfamiliarity with the subject. 
The obvious argument is simply:

Scout is not the worst card in dominion, as that title has to go to CURSE.  I mean, imagine how much weaker Witch would be if it handed out Scouts instead of Curses (yeah, not much weaker, but a little weaker, surely).

He was too caught up in the usual definition of "worst" which includes cost, and whether you want it in the deck etc...  But worst in dominion, surely curse.

[luser]

I think DD got hit by his unfamiliarity with the subject. 
The obvious argument is simply:

Scout is not the worst card in dominion, as that title has to go to CURSE.  I mean, imagine how much weaker Witch would be if it handed out Scouts instead of Curses (yeah, not much weaker, but a little weaker, surely).

He was too caught up in the usual definition of "worst" which includes cost, and whether you want it in the deck etc...  But worst in dominion, surely curse.

That would be quite weaker as it will not slow you early, first two scouts can be paired by estates so they are often cantrip and it helps at greening unless opponent gives you ten scouts. I tried to ambassador scouts versus bots but it is too slow and they could get to four provinces before it slows them down.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I think DD got hit by his unfamiliarity with the subject. 
The obvious argument is simply:

Scout is not the worst card in dominion, as that title has to go to CURSE.  I mean, imagine how much weaker Witch would be if it handed out Scouts instead of Curses (yeah, not much weaker, but a little weaker, surely).

He was too caught up in the usual definition of "worst" which includes cost, and whether you want it in the deck etc...  But worst in dominion, surely curse.

Edge case: curses cost 0 and there are many games that are won by piling curses.