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[michaeljb]

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140318/log.50a6c1abe4b03214bb7822e9.1395127269099.txt

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Embargo, Ambassador, Swindler, Coppersmith, Procession, Worker's Village, Catacombs, Highway, Witch, Border Village
Border Village, Highway, Catacombs, Worker's Village, Ambassador, hurray! This looks like tons of fun! OK, I should be able to open double Ambassador and get thin quick before building into a big Highway megaturn. Plus if my opponent gets ahead, well I've come from behind in Ambassador games before when my opponent didn't handle the midgame right.

We both open double Ambassador and then our decks don't look similar for much longer.

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michaeljb: turn 3
michaeljb plays 4 Copper
michaeljb buys Worker's Village

Probably should have got Silver instead of getting excited about the engine and multiple Ambassadors, but I could swear I've opened Amb/Amb/village before and it's worked out.

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michaeljb gains Worker's Village
michaeljb draws Copper, Ambassador, Copper, Ambassador, Copper

Well that kind of sucks. Better thin down as much as I can though.

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prozacraindrop: turn 3
prozacraindrop plays Ambassador
prozacraindrop reveals Estate
prozacraindrop returns Estate to the Supply
michaeljb gains Estate
prozacraindrop plays 3 Copper
prozacraindrop buys Silver
prozacraindrop gains Silver

michaeljb: turn 4
michaeljb plays Ambassador
michaeljb reveals Copper
michaeljb returns Copper to the Supply
michaeljb returns Copper to the Supply
prozacraindrop gains Copper
michaeljb draws Estate, Estate
michaeljb shuffles deck
michaeljb draws Copper, Copper, Estate


Well this doesn't bode well for me. Opponent returned one card instead of two, but hey I returned two, so I got that going for me, which is nice. Unfortunately I picked up a $2 hand (also note, this means I definitely won't be able to return two Estates this shuffle). At least there's Embargo for some cash I guess.

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prozacraindrop: turn 4
prozacraindrop plays Ambassador
prozacraindrop reveals Estate
prozacraindrop returns Estate to the Supply
prozacraindrop returns Estate to the Supply
michaeljb gains Estate
prozacraindrop plays 2 Copper
prozacraindrop buys Embargo
prozacraindrop gains Embargo

michaeljb: turn 5
michaeljb plays 2 Copper
michaeljb buys Embargo
michaeljb gains Embargo
michaeljb draws Ambassador, Ambassador, Copper, Copper, Copper

Oh, come on.

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prozacraindrop: turn 5
prozacraindrop plays Ambassador
prozacraindrop reveals Copper
michaeljb gains Copper
prozacraindrop plays 3 Copper, 1 Silver
prozacraindrop buys Witch
prozacraindrop gains Witch

michaeljb: turn 6
michaeljb plays Ambassador
michaeljb reveals Copper
michaeljb returns Copper to the Supply
michaeljb returns Copper to the Supply
prozacraindrop gains Copper
michaeljb draws Worker's Village, Estate
michaeljb shuffles deck
michaeljb draws Estate, Estate, Estate

Two reshuffles with 3+ Estates in the first hand. Opponent has 0 Estates, 1 Silver, and 1 Witch to my 5 Estates and 1 Worker's Village.

Clearly I should have got Silver instead of Worker's Village (or maybe not so clearly, would have just got me a second Embargo so far)...and if I had opened Amb/Silver, my first two Amb turns could have been return 2 Coppers, buy a Silver, or buy a second Amb, or even return 0 Coppers and start on Highways or get a Witch.

Maybe I should have also done return 0 Copper, buy a Silver instead of thinning down more. I was just thinking I would be returning 2 Estates at a time in not time. Guess I just murdered my own economy instead.

So, little bit of not-so-great tactical play on my part, little bit of bad shuffle luck to start off the game.

Eventually I do manage to get some Silvers, return 2 Estates at once, even get a Procession instead of Worker's Village--another thing that would have been great to do earlier than I did; it would possibly help me return cards more quickly, and actually help me get the engine pieces I need, instead of being prepared for them. So admittedly, this game is not without fault on my part, but I still cannot believe the shuffling that happened early on.

So I did end up making some good choices, but alas, I was not able to catch up, as my opponent made short work of me with the huge early lead and all those juicy engine pieces begging for a nice big Province-piledriver turn.

Oh wait, no, that didn't happen. This is the final turn of the game:

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prozacraindrop: turn 30
prozacraindrop plays Worker's Village
prozacraindrop draws Border Village
prozacraindrop plays Worker's Village
prozacraindrop draws Highway
prozacraindrop plays Border Village
prozacraindrop draws Copper
prozacraindrop plays Highway
prozacraindrop draws Gold
prozacraindrop plays Witch
prozacraindrop shuffles deck
prozacraindrop draws Ambassador, Gold
prozacraindrop plays Ambassador
prozacraindrop reveals Copper
prozacraindrop returns Copper to the Supply
michaeljb gains Copper
prozacraindrop plays 3 Gold
prozacraindrop buys Province
prozacraindrop gains Province
prozacraindrop buys Estate
prozacraindrop gains Estate
prozacraindrop buys Estate
prozacraindrop gains Estate


Game Over
prozacraindrop cards: 6 Highway, 4 Border Village, 2 Worker's Village, 2 Witch, 2 Ambassador, 5 Gold, 3 Silver, 2 Copper, 8 Province, 4 Duchy, 3 Estate, 2 Curse
prozacraindrop total victory points: 61
prozacraindrop turns: 30
michaeljb cards: 4 Worker's Village, 4 Catacombs, 2 Ambassador, 2 Border Village, 2 Procession, 1 Swindler, 8 Copper, 7 Silver, 2 Estate, 8 Curse
michaeljb total victory points: -6
michaeljb turns: 30
1st place prozacraindrop
2nd place michaeljb
Yup, THIRTY TURNS. I was "mathematically eliminated" much earlier but stuck it out, mainly because I was (morbidly) curious about how long it would actually take him to end the game.

I was right about some opponents not playing Ambassador->Engine midgames right (disclaimer: no idea what his ranking is, I just play "all cards #vpon"); this guy got FIVE Golds, ZERO Catacombs, ended this game with multiple Coppers AND Curses in his deck, and was apparently scared off from buying a bunch of Highways by the Embargoes, even when he would have been able to engine his way through it and pass those Curses right back to me, or literally gain 0 Curses with the buy since the pile was empty anyway.

Lessons learned:

• if your real engine pieces are $5+, buy some gorram Silver early on (I swear I've learned this one before)
• you don't need that silly village till you actually need it
• seriously don't buy a second village if you still don't have that gorram Silver
• opening Ambassador/Silver guarantees you have some Silver no matter what shuffling or bad village choices happen
• still though, that shuffling really happened?
• even when the shuffling seems to be against you, you probably deserve it
• getting in just one (or two) quick game of Dominion doesn't always work out, sometimes it turns into (probably) the longest single-game report you've written

Anyone have some more lessons from this game that I missed?

edit: made the list formatted as a list, added one more item to it

[-Stef-]

If you're this much better than your opponent, open amb/Workers village, then outplay him on the flop.

(or find someone else to play)

[michaeljb]

I don't think I've ever played against this guy (didn't recognize the username) before, and I didn't check his rating before the game (just checked Isotropish, level 4 after 200 games), and opening Ambassador/Worker's Village doesn't look good to me in general; don't think I'd want to try it against someone in my range or higher (level 30+).

Sounds like you're also saying I should know my opponent at least a tiny bit before I agree to a game

[dondon151]

I thought opening Amb/$4 Village was a thing? No?

[michaeljb]

Is it? Guess I missed that one...

edit: if it is someone ought to update its wiki page 

[dondon151]

Well, there are arguments for Amb/Amb, Amb/Silver, or Amb/$4 Village openings... which have probably been covered before.

Amb/Amb: You'll slim down faster than your opponent, but risk killing your economy in the process. Amb collisions (especially with no Estates) are the worst outcome.
Amb/Silver: You won't slim down as quickly, but are more likely to hit $4 for a village or $5 for some other power card. Amb/Silver collision is also a pretty bad outcome.
Amb/$4 Village: You won't slim down as quickly, but there's also no risk of being unable to pick up a $4 Village on subsequent shuffles, and the worst outcomes aren't as bad.

[Titandrake]

I claim Amb/$4 Village is a thing, especially on this board where you want the $4 village as soon as you can because your alternative is Border Village a long time later. I think it's generally not considered a thing, except for Amb/Walled Village which doesn't show up too often anymore, but I'm a fan of it.

Basically my reasoning for it is that by getting the $4 village early, you only need $3 on T3 or T4 to get the second Amb, which is almost a sure thing (it might actually be a sure thing, haven't done the math on it.) From that point you're free to thin as fast as you want without worrying as much about collisions.

Heads up matchups are:
Against Amb/$4 cost, it's a mirror so nothing to say.
Against Amb/Silver, your economy is slower but you're ahead 1 piece in the ideal situation of 2 Ambassadors + Village deck you want early on.
Against Amb/Amb, you are down at most 1 Amb play early on. If there are no other +Actions cheaper than $4, your opponent is not getting $4 on T3 or T4 if they played Amb twice, unless one Amb missed a reshuffle, so you aren't actually that far behind.

My intuition is that Amb/$4 Village is usually better than Amb/Amb if there are no +Actions cheaper than it, but against Amb/Silver it's much more of a board call.

[2.71828.....]

One thing that neither of you explored but I think would be pretty awesome this board is procession.  Border Village, Catacombs, workers village, ambassador, swindler.  There is definitely a lot of potential there.  (especially processioning a Catacombs which gives a card costing less than catacombs (trashing benefit), border village, and the gain from border village.)  Engine possibilities like this are what determine whether you should open amb/amb or amb/silver.  I think opening ambassador/silver is good, then hopefully buying a procession on t3/t4 (not buying one of those turns due to ambassador).  From there you pick up your second ambassador and start processioning ambassadors into your engine components, buying more ambassadors as you lose them.

I would have to actually play it to see if it works as well as I think it might, but I think using procession might be part of a winning strategy here.

edit: michaeljb did get a procession, but on turn 22 when the game was already over.  So procession wasn't completely ignored (as I had originally thought when I looked through the first several turns) but it was practically ignored since the game was over by this point.

[KingZog3]

I agree with 2.71828. This looks like a dream Procession board. Draw lots of cards with Catcombs and get to free villages on top of that. Or Village and Swindler. It's too good not to try for. However  would still open with a Silver. I usually do Ambassador, and get a second one later. That way I have a better chance for buying key cards, and it works out pretty well for me, even against a double ambassador opening.

[silverspawn]

  this might be the best procession board i have ever seen. if you get just one perfect turn, the game is over. you can probably end the game on duchies and curses

[Stealth Tomato]

If you're this much better than your opponent, open amb/Workers village, then outplay him on the flop.

(or find someone else to play)

1. I love the use of the poker analogy here.

2. I think this is a key element a lot of players miss. Better players can afford more vanilla openings because they'll outplay their opponent later. Their deck just needs enough speed to be competitive in the early game.

[KingZog3]

If you're this much better than your opponent, open amb/Workers village, then outplay him on the flop.

(or find someone else to play)

1. I love the use of the poker analogy here.

2. I think this is a key element a lot of players miss. Better players can afford more vanilla openings because they'll outplay their opponent later. Their deck just needs enough speed to be competitive in the early game.

I think playing the player is worse than playing the game.

[ragingduckd]

If you're this much better than your opponent, open amb/Workers village, then outplay him on the flop.

(or find someone else to play)

1. I love the use of the poker analogy here.

2. I think this is a key element a lot of players miss. Better players can afford more vanilla openings because they'll outplay their opponent later. Their deck just needs enough speed to be competitive in the early game.

I think playing the player is worse than playing the game.

This is missing the point.  You're not trying to outpsyche your opponent or predict what he's going to do.  You're maximizing your odds of winning given your respective abilities.  It's like a human avoiding wild tactical play in a game against a chess computer.

If I'm playing Stef, I want a board with Cultist or at least Tournament on it.  Better still, I'd like to flip a coin to decide who wins.  And I'd settle for a coin that was somewhat weighted in his favor, even though that's absolutely the wrong decision if I'm "playing the game" rather than "playing the player."