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[Polk5440]

I have Armory way higher,#17. Man, I just love those Workshop variants. Given all this talk about how important plus buy is, I can't understand the under-appreciation of gain. Ironmonger, Menagerie, Harold, Throne Room, Bridge, Caravan, villages,.... you often want lots of these. Armory puts free copies of them on your deck! That's good!

[brokoli]

I am confused with Death cart. I don't have so much experience with this card, and I must admit that the games where I used it, it was not always a spectacular card. But on the other hand, I still think it's underrated because for me this card seems still very powerful. Let's compare with tactician : tactician has a drawback, you discard your hand when you play it. But the benefit is so strong that it worth it, and it shows that a very bad hand and a very good hand is better than two average hands. For Death cart, I feel it is more or less the same… +$5 worth the pain of gaining two ruins.

For me, Death cart seems like a very good support for good engines (with +buy), $5 is just a lot. And for alt-VP, or slogs, or games where you want to three pile, DC is useful too… I really don't think it is well ranked here.

[scott_pilgrim]

In my experience Death Cart is only good when you can draw your deck anyway to make sure it collides with Ruins or actions you want to trash (and so the Ruins aren't hurting your deck), and you have the +buy to take advantage of it.  Usually in those cases it's a strong board and there's better stuff to be doing than getting Death Carts.  +$5 sounds like a lot but it has to be split over two cards, and those two cards also have to collide, so it's pretty bad.

Nomad Camp seems really high, the only explanation I can think of as to why it's so much "higher than Woodcutter" is that there's a lot more bad $4's than bad $3's.

Walled Village is low.  I mean it's really bad in comparison to other villages, but it's still a village and sometimes you just need a village.  It's important more often than the other cards down there.

And I don't know why Armory is so low.  It's not the best but it can be nice in a lot of situations.

[Awaclus]

I am confused with Death cart. I don't have so much experience with this card, and I must admit that the games where I used it, it was not always a spectacular card. But on the other hand, I still think it's underrated because for me this card seems still very powerful. Let's compare with tactician : tactician has a drawback, you discard your hand when you play it. But the benefit is so strong that it worth it, and it shows that a very bad hand and a very good hand is better than two average hands. For Death cart, I feel it is more or less the same… +$5 worth the pain of gaining two ruins.

Two Ruins can ruin more than one hand and +$5 isn't as good as +5 cards, +1 action, +1 buy.

[silverspawn]

Nomad Camp seems really high, the only explanation I can think of as to why it's so much "higher than Woodcutter" is that there's a lot more bad $4's than bad $3's.

nomad camp is too low i think. you can topdeck it to get to $5. that's just such a huge advantage over woodcutter. it's like comparing scavanger and chancellor.

vv is too low, agree. talisman is too high. death card is eh, 5$ looks like a lot, but in reality it's at best 2,5$ for two of your cards, and terminal on top. worst case it's a one shot and the ruins are ruining your other turns... that's what they're good at.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Nomad Camp seems really high, the only explanation I can think of as to why it's so much "higher than Woodcutter" is that there's a lot more bad $4's than bad $3's.

nomad camp is too low i think. you can topdeck it to get to $5. that's just such a huge advantage over woodcutter. it's like comparing scavanger and chancellor.

It only gets you to $5 40% of the time. The rest of the time, it's just getting you to $4, which means you're basically opening Woddcutter/4, which is pretty bad. It's a good opening for rushing down some $2 cards like Fool's Gold, but typically it's not worth opening Woodcutter to maybe get an early 5 less than half the time.

And later in the game, when you actually want to buy a terminal +buy card, Nomad Camp's on gain effect is actually a negative a lot of the time, since you don't really want your terminal +buy on top. You want your drawing cards and villages so you draw into the +buy card to play last.

Overall, I think Nomad Camp is slightly worse than Woodcutter, but it gets a higher rank because the 3s are generally better than the 4s.

[silverspawn]

Nomad Camp seems really high, the only explanation I can think of as to why it's so much "higher than Woodcutter" is that there's a lot more bad $4's than bad $3's.

nomad camp is too low i think. you can topdeck it to get to $5. that's just such a huge advantage over woodcutter. it's like comparing scavanger and chancellor.

It only gets you to $5 40% of the time. The rest of the time, it's just getting you to $4, which means you're basically opening Woddcutter/4, which is pretty bad. It's a good opening for rushing down some $2 cards like Fool's Gold, but typically it's not worth opening Woodcutter to maybe get an early 5 less than half the time.

i disagree, i think that's often worth it. woodcutter/4 is only bad if there are other, stronger terminals which you wanna play and a lack of +actions. often it's a good opening, and woodcutter/5$ is usually an amazing opening.

[Awaclus]

There's also the issue of slowing down your cycling in the early game, which is sometimes a good thing, but usually isn't.

[silverspawn]

because the 3s are generally better than the 4s

this is a paradox btw. saying that 3$'s are better than 4$'s is like saying that the difference between a 4$ card and a 3$ card is smaller than the difference between having 4$ and having 3$, but the latter is defined by the former: 4$ to 3$ is the exact same thing as having a 4$ card to having a 3$ card, because 4$ let's you buy a 4$ card and 3$ let's you buy a 3$ card. this isn't exactly true anymore once you have several buys, but early on it is.

it would be a different thing if you meant they are actually better, not just better relative to their cost, but you said that NC is worse than woodcutter, so I assume that's not what you meant.

[Awaclus]

it would be a different thing if you meant they are actually better, not just better relative to their cost, but you said that NC is worse than woodcutter, so I assume that's not what you meant.

They are actually better. And NC is actually worse than Woodcutter, not just worse relative to its cost. EDIT: This is my opinion, which HME doesn't necessarily share.

[florrat]

There's also the issue of slowing down your cycling in the early game, which is sometimes a good thing, but usually isn't.

How does Nomad Camp slow down your cycling? You still shuffle at the end of turn 2, with the only difference that the first card of your hand in turn 3 is either copper or estate. So there is a slightly bigger chance that your opening buys miss the reshuffle (but that is probably negligible, the difference is only 1.5pp), but it doesn't slow down your cycling: you have shuffles in exactly the same turns.

[Awaclus]

There's also the issue of slowing down your cycling in the early game, which is sometimes a good thing, but usually isn't.

How does Nomad Camp slow down your cycling? You still shuffle at the end of turn 2, with the only difference that the first card of your hand in turn 3 is either copper or estate. So there is a slightly bigger chance that your opening buys miss the reshuffle (but that is probably negligible, the difference is only 1.5pp), but it doesn't slow down your cycling: you have shuffles in exactly the same turns.

The reshuffle that you normally get at the end of turn 6 will be delayed by one turn.

[Robz888]

I fully agree that Nomad Camp is worse than Woodcutter, even if they cost the same. On top of your deck is not generally where you want a terminal silver to be. You want your village and your draw card on top of your deck.

[GendoIkari]

Nomad Camp seems really high, the only explanation I can think of as to why it's so much "higher than Woodcutter" is that there's a lot more bad $4's than bad $3's.

nomad camp is too low i think. you can topdeck it to get to $5. that's just such a huge advantage over woodcutter. it's like comparing scavanger and chancellor.

It only gets you to $5 40% of the time. The rest of the time, it's just getting you to $4, which means you're basically opening Woddcutter/4, which is pretty bad. It's a good opening for rushing down some $2 cards like Fool's Gold, but typically it's not worth opening Woodcutter to maybe get an early 5 less than half the time.

woodcutter/4 is only bad if there are other, stronger terminals which you wanna play and a lack of +actions.

Or if something like Silver/4 is available.

[dondon151]

this is a paradox btw. saying that 3$'s are better than 4$'s is like saying that the difference between a 4$ card and a 3$ card is smaller than the difference between having 4$ and having 3$, but the latter is defined by the former: 4$ to 3$ is the exact same thing as having a 4$ card to having a 3$ card, because 4$ let's you buy a 4$ card and 3$ let's you buy a 3$ card. this isn't exactly true anymore once you have several buys, but early on it is.

I'm so confused by this. It just looks like a bunch of words.

I do think it's true that given some random set of $3 and $4 cost cards, if I had $4, I would rather buy a $3 card because it's stronger. Obviously this doesn't apply to all cards costing $3 or $4.

[silverspawn]

this is a paradox btw. saying that 3$'s are better than 4$'s is like saying that the difference between a 4$ card and a 3$ card is smaller than the difference between having 4$ and having 3$, but the latter is defined by the former: 4$ to 3$ is the exact same thing as having a 4$ card to having a 3$ card, because 4$ let's you buy a 4$ card and 3$ let's you buy a 3$ card. this isn't exactly true anymore once you have several buys, but early on it is.

I'm so confused by this. It just looks like a bunch of words.

I do think it's true that given some random set of $3 and $4 cost cards, if I had $4, I would rather buy a $3 card because it's stronger. Obviously this doesn't apply to all cards costing $3 or $4.

if 3$ cards are actually stronger, and not just relative to their cost, it doesn't apply, so don't bother.

[Beyond Awesome]

Walled Village should not be so low. It is still a village. Death Cart seems better ranked this time. Most of the time, that card sucks! It usually just junk your decks and without a source of +Buy, is almost never worth getting. I mean, yah, it is worth getting when the Ruins are out, but usually, it is just a bad  card.

[c4master]

I expect Death Cart to be pretty nice with shelters, since you can at least trash your Necropolis, if you miss the ruins. I haven't played it enough to be clear about this, though.

Chances of missing the ruins is roughly 50% in non-shelter-games.
Chances of missing the ruins and the necropolis is roughly 33%.

(Assuming turn 3/4 with Death Cart and 2 opening buys one of which is DC)

[Awaclus]

(Assuming turn 3/4 with Death Cart and 2 opening buys one of which is DC)

I think that opening Death Cart is always a bad idea. You want to trash your cards and get an engine running in the early game, not gain more junk cards. If you're not going for an engine, then you probably don't want a Death Cart at any point.

The ideal use for Death Cart is when you have an engine that draws more cards than there are in your deck and need an effective way to get more coins. Keeping the Necropolis around for that long might or might not be a good idea, but if you have it and don't need it anymore, it's obviously nice Death Cart fodder, so Shelters do make Death Cart a little stronger, but only in situations where you would have gotten it anyway.

[c4master]

Sure. Especially when there are attacks to be played as often as possible, the ruins really hurt.
Anyways, there is still a small chance of hitting $9 by turn 3/4 even without a silver (but then really tiny). Anyways, even this might not be enough to even out the slowdown.
Maybe Rats-> Death Cart can be of some use.

[Watno]

I think ´Death cart opening might be good to get a quick forge.

[silverspawn]

I think ´Death cart opening might be good to get a quick forge.

eh, i doubt it. there are several problems, #1 you may not get to $7 with it, #2 you may draw death cart without ruins and #3 even if you get the forge its not that amazing. you can just go double silver into a strong $5 or a gold and get a quick forge. and if there is anything smithy-like you'll get to $7 just as quickly

[WanderingWinder]

The best use I've found for Death Cart so far is as a partial answer to the other Looters.

Edit: Or when I want to gain oodles of actions fast, e.g. for vineyards, occasionally gardens, or just to empty a pile

[jsh357]

I have found it useful for winning Tournaments early, but even then it's a little risky.

[jaybeez]

Very risky I think, best-case scenario is you play DC, trash one of the Ruins, buy Province.  You still have an extra Ruins clogging your deck, making it a little less likely to line up that Province with a Tournament.  And that's the best-case scenario which isn't even especially likely.

I like DC in a Scrying Pool deck too, since the extra Ruins won't really hurt and SP loves actions that generate coin.