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[markusin]

To be clear, I think Forager can keep up with the junking of Mountebank with the right support. This support can include other defenses to Mountebank and other trashers.

The real question is if you can have a thin deck and a deck that can outrace your opponents at the same time. Again, being able to do this requires support. Getting to the expensive cards with Forager is harder, so you generally want to have cheaper cards at the 4 coat range or less that are good to get. Sometimes a snowballing effect with cost reduction can work too thanks to Foragers +buy

My best example of such a game is one where I had Remake and Forager for trashing and ignored Mountebank completely in favor of Highways, Bazaars, and Moats.

With more players, things become tricky. Having 2 players hitting you with Mountebanks can be brutal. It hurts engine potential considerably. However, your opponents also hurt each other, giving you a bit more time to build. If they go for Soothsayers instead, then you probably need to build faster before too many Provinces are gone.

[minovsky]

just played again (Edit: twice).

game 4: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.51700897e4b082c74d7e73e4.1394517437605.txt
I must be doing something really wrong because I was able to open with mountebank while the other bots didn't but I still lost. my first 4 buys were 3 mountebanks and 1 forager, then i went university and wharf and couple of tournaments... what mistakes did I make here??

*****

game 5: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.51700897e4b082c74d7e73e4.1394518945088.txt
both bots opened potion/silver, i opened potion/forager. I need to rely on university to get mountebank in T5, bought a 2nd forager in T6 (both bots had 2 soothsayer each by then...), and in T7 got 2nd mountebank (from uni) and bought 2nd uni.

The soothsayers seemed to be very powerful, the game ended with only 2 golds left in the pile (the bots had 12 and 13, respectively), which makes me wonder why is almost everyone downplaying soothsayer here? could anyone explain?

I was losing out for the entire game since the bots have so much gold, saved only luckily by getting princess in T23 that got me a province and 4 0-cost estate, which then - since I schemed princess - got me another duchy (5 coins on my hand only!!!) and another 4 0-estate in T24, ending the game as the estate pile emptied, allowing me to make a dramatic comeback to win the game. That said, I am not pleased with how i played, surely i only managed to win because of pure luck from getting princess...

I have question about what I should have done in T4, when I had 4 coins. I opted for silver, should I have done otherwise?

In T19, I picked up a copper with my extra buy, because I was worried that I am running low on what I could thrash (3 curses and 4 coppers left in a 33 cards deck with 3 foragers, none of the bots had any mountebank). I spent a while thinking if i should do that actually... was that a stupid move?

I had 5 wharfs, and I only played it total of only 6 times in the game (searched for "duration" in the log), the first time being T16 by which I actually already have 4 wharfs in my deck... It sounds like I am not playing it right? (I have only 3 universities, maybe I should have balanced 1:1 instead? i.e. getting 2 more universities or getting 2 less wharfs?) That said, the duration-ed wharf saved me in the penultimate turn - T23 where I drew a gold that allowed me to just have enough to buy the province.

overall, I think forager did help significantly. perhaps the one thing that I was pleased with myself was in T9 when I decided to trash my silver so I can get +$2 for all the later turns. then again, if i was playing against humans, they would probably get at least one forager as well to free-ride on this...

You played game 5 much closer to how a two player game could be played and you got your reward. You still took too many terminals here and should have bought the second (or third) forager before your first silver and relied on faster card gaining, including tournament and advisor.

so i tried advisor and tournament

Game 6: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.51700897e4b082c74d7e73e4.1394544309603.txt
7 Advisor, 6 University, 4 Forager, 4 Wharf, 4 Scheme, 3 Mountebank, 2 Tournament, 1 Princess, 2 Silver, 2 Copper, 1 Gold
I got the princess but it was not enough to save me this time, I only managed to bare catch up with the 2nd bot when the game ends. I was particular careful this time about balancing my universities and terminals

Game 7: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.51700897e4b082c74d7e73e4.1394545295782.txt
4 Tournament, 3 Forager, 3 Mountebank, 2 Wharf, 2 University, 1 Trusty Steed, 1 Scheme, 4 Copper, 3 Gold
(no advisor here) I won but I opened with mountebank and managed to get a 2nd one in T3. I also played a bit differently given this lucky opening, going for gold earlier and so only had 2 university in total (with the first one gained in as late as T11).
It still didn't work as good as I hoped to with 2 mountebank early, since I actually got caught up in ~T21-22. I still managed to win in T23 because I gained trusty steed (I only had a forager+copper on my hand... so princess can't even get me a duchy), and trusty seed's +2 cards gave me gold + mountebank (wohoo 5 coins!!) to clear the final duchy and end the game.
In evaluation, maybe I should have kept going for treasures instead of getting distracted mid-game to try building up the university + wharf? any thoughts?

Game 8: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.51700897e4b082c74d7e73e4.1394546485105.txt
8 Advisor, 5 University, 4 Wharf, 3 Mountebank, 3 Forager, 2 Island, 2 Tournament, 1 Scheme, 4 Silver, 2 Copper, 2 Gold
finally pulled it, despite it was another final turn comeback in T24 (our scores were more or less tied since T20, so it was a really thrilling experience for the last few turns). One bot opened with soothsayer so I am happy that I managed to beat a 2/5 opening (ok it's not as damaging as mountebank i know), also for the first time ever I managed to pull couple of mini-mega-turns for this kingdom.
One thing I got out of this is that trashing potion actually means an additional $1 when I use forager (*bangs head on desk for realizing this only after 8 games*)
Questions:
1) in T19, I had $3+1P left over after buying 2 provinces, I opted for university, bringing the total to 5. Would scheme (or another card) be more appropriate? If I actually had $4+1P, could another advisor have been better?
2) I went for 2 islands in T20 from the 2 universities because I was losing out otherwise (I would be 2 points behind instead of 2 points ahead if I didn't buy the 2 islands), is that a right move or should I still have gotten other action cards instead?

[minovsky]

so after all these practices, I just played with my friend again

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.51700897e4b082c74d7e73e4.1394552589822.txt

and I still lost.... well actually I could have ended it in T21 by emptying the 3rd pile but I didn't keep track well enough so I wasn't sure I was leading.

my blunder aside, clearly I am still not doing good enough, what did I do wrong? or what did my friend do so well?

a thought: I got 4 islands from university close to late game (T17, T17, T18, T20) in order to catch up, should I have just gotten more advisor instead? tournament isn't possible since it was the pile with only 1 card left by the end of the game, and scheme was also low as well I think.

[DG]

You still seem to be persisting with late universities. Once you've started mountebank/nothing/mountebank there isn't really any need to buy a potion, shuffle, buy a university, shuffle, gain a tournament, shuffle, play tournament, game ends. It's easier to just buy a tournament instead of the potion. Universities are powerful cards but they are slow and have big overheads. Frances won your last three player game with no universities at all and that really just follows all the advice you've received in this thread.

Here is a table of the stats collected when Dominion was played on Isotropic instead of Goko. If you sort the table by "Win rate without" it will show how often decks won without a card. University has the second highest "win rate without". Draw your own conclusion from that. http://councilroom.com/popular_buys.

[minovsky]

You still seem to be persisting with late universities. Once you've started mountebank/nothing/mountebank there isn't really any need to buy a potion, shuffle, buy a university, shuffle, gain a tournament, shuffle, play tournament, game ends. It's easier to just buy a tournament instead of the potion. Universities are powerful cards but they are slow and have big overheads. Frances won your last three player game with no universities at all and that really just follows all the advice you've received in this thread.

Here is a table of the stats collected when Dominion was played on Isotropic instead of Goko. If you sort the table by "Win rate without" it will show how often decks won without a card. University has the second highest "win rate without". Draw your own conclusion from that. http://councilroom.com/popular_buys.

thanks for the chart, interesting data. i am still amazed almost daily by how much efforts have been put in to analyze dominion

I am sorry for keep playing it wrong but I guess I have been drawing wrong conclusions. What I got out so far was that forager to trash, mountebank to attack is very consistent, and there seemed to be mixed opinions as to whether university + wharf might or might not help. My friend though had soothsayer instead of mountebank and didn't get forager until mid game so I don't understand why she has been following the advices here instead of me. I guess I am really just too stupid for this dominion since I can't even understand what people are trying to tell me, so I am going stop this for a while. Thanks to everyone who have given me advices and suggestions on all my threads over the last couple of days, I did have fun trying to improve.

Edit: for the record that I did try but not just whined, here are two records of me opening forager/tournament, getting to 3 mountebank as soon as possible and keep getting tournament whenever I don't have $5.
game 9: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.51700897e4b082c74d7e73e4.1394555566041.txt
game 10: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.51700897e4b082c74d7e73e4.1394556245769.txt
I wasn't even close for either of them. note that I am not saying anyone's strategy doesn't work (as I mentioned several times I really do appreciate everyone's input), I think the problem lies in me failing to execute them smart enough. I don't have an issue with losing and I am not blaming anything/anyone, all I just want to show is that I have been trying out different suggestions and all along I just want to get better. Indeed I already did improve against my friend in our most recent game and I was pleased about it even though I lost, but it just shocked me to hear that i have not been doing what people are suggesting to me.

[DG]

You did get some contradictory advice in this thread because it is not a simple kingdom. It is different in two and three player. You can adjust your play to match your opponents strategy. Differences in the decks can shift the balance of forager vs silver vs scheme, mountebank vs soothsayer vs wharf, and tournament vs advisor. You tried to get the most complex deck to work and something simpler may have offered more success.

[Kirian]

So I also didn't notice the 3-player tag at the beginning, which definitely changes things a lot.  If both other players go Mountebank, you won't be able to keep up on trashing without 4-5 Foragers--noting that this still might be maintainable, especially once you can get Wharves via Uni.

Some sample games against bots.  A few notes though.  First, these are bots.  They start the game dumb, and they don't adapt as the game progresses.

Second, the bots are going Soothsayer instead of Mountebank.  What's interesting is that this seems to be good against Mountebank/BM, but not against a trashing engine.  It gets Gold into your deck, but against trashing, the extra draw for your opponent makes trashing those Curses easier.  Against Mountebank, though, the Gold gains may overpower the Copper gains.

Third, the bots aren't contesting Wharves in many cases.  So it's really, really hard to compare these to actual play.  I guess if someone wanted to take the time in Dominiate, these could be simulated, but man that would be hard.

5/2 Mountebank, transitioning into Forager/Uni/Wharf engine.  As with any engine with trashing, this starts off slow.  I could have let it go on a few more turns to run up the score at the end, but you can see it kicking into high gear.
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1394552313993.txt

3/4 Double Forager, transitioning to engine.  By far the easiest of these games, though again this is vs. bots going Soothsayer rather than Mountebank.  Nonetheless, I have the worst shuffle luck I've seen in a while, trashing a Copper, then drawing $2 on T4 and T5, and yet still come back very easily.
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1394552783974.txt

5/2 Mountebank again, with Tournament support.  Note that though the Curse split is about even, the bots have a lot more Gold (from SS).  The copper from my Mountebanks isn't enough to slow them down, and I come in third.
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1394553385363.txt

5/2 AGAIN, going pure BM+X.  Major fail.  Again, I think BM-SS is going to kill BM-MB but, alas, Dominiate doesn't include Soothsayer.
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1394557101728.txt

3/4 Forager/Potion.  This goes about as well as the Double Forager game above.  Note that in both cases, Trusty Steed and Princess were pretty important.  I may have to try each without any Tournaments, though it'll require Silver or Gold as a payload.
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1394558883639.txt

3/4 Double Forager without Tournaments.  Much closer.  I trashed my Potion too early here, though.
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1394559261643.txt

5/2 again, so I tried SS-BM for the hell of it... and won.  I think another SS would have been good here.
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1394559460829.txt

3/4 Forager/Potion again.  I think I get my Mountebank too late here, and possibly don't get my third Forager fast enough, and the engine takes extra time to get moving.
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1394559895111.txt

3/4 Forager Potion but with no Tournaments.  Better than the previous one but still not enough to win.
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1394560413565.txt

For good measure, one last Forager/Forager game, with Tournaments and Mountebanks as payload.
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.50635cc651c3843e7939ece8.1394562670335.txt

Note:  These aren't cherry-picked.  Before anyone makes the claim.  They are, however, in no sense optimized.  This is just me doing a few games in my spare time for the heck of it.
----

OK, so what can we learn from this?

One:  Trashing with Forager seems to be better than no trashing.

Two:  The bots are dumb.

Three:  Soothsayer might well be better here for BM than Mountebank.  So if the bots are, on average, going after BM, maybe they're not actually as dumb as we think.

Four:  If no one is contesting Forager, feel free to trash your non-Copper treasures once each for a gigantic boost.  In the end-game, don't be shy of trashing actions if Forager gets you $3.

Five:  Payload is key.  Mountebank as payload just doesn't do it because it's terminal.  Tournament as non-terminal payload was incredibly helpful.

Six:  Tournament is a swingy card, and always will be.  Trusty Steed and Princess in the last few turns can be the difference between winning handily and failing.

[eHalcyon]

You still seem to be persisting with late universities. Once you've started mountebank/nothing/mountebank there isn't really any need to buy a potion, shuffle, buy a university, shuffle, gain a tournament, shuffle, play tournament, game ends. It's easier to just buy a tournament instead of the potion. Universities are powerful cards but they are slow and have big overheads. Frances won your last three player game with no universities at all and that really just follows all the advice you've received in this thread.

Here is a table of the stats collected when Dominion was played on Isotropic instead of Goko. If you sort the table by "Win rate without" it will show how often decks won without a card. University has the second highest "win rate without". Draw your own conclusion from that. http://councilroom.com/popular_buys.

thanks for the chart, interesting data. i am still amazed almost daily by how much efforts have been put in to analyze dominion

I am sorry for keep playing it wrong but I guess I have been drawing wrong conclusions. What I got out so far was that forager to trash, mountebank to attack is very consistent, and there seemed to be mixed opinions as to whether university + wharf might or might not help. My friend though had soothsayer instead of mountebank and didn't get forager until mid game so I don't understand why she has been following the advices here instead of me. I guess I am really just too stupid for this dominion since I can't even understand what people are trying to tell me, so I am going stop this for a while. Thanks to everyone who have given me advices and suggestions on all my threads over the last couple of days, I did have fun trying to improve.

Edit: for the record that I did try but not just whined, here are two records of me opening forager/tournament, getting to 3 mountebank as soon as possible and keep getting tournament whenever I don't have $5.
game 9: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.51700897e4b082c74d7e73e4.1394555566041.txt
game 10: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.51700897e4b082c74d7e73e4.1394556245769.txt
I wasn't even close for either of them. note that I am not saying anyone's strategy doesn't work (as I mentioned several times I really do appreciate everyone's input), I think the problem lies in me failing to execute them smart enough. I don't have an issue with losing and I am not blaming anything/anyone, all I just want to show is that I have been trying out different suggestions and all along I just want to get better. Indeed I already did improve against my friend in our most recent game and I was pleased about it even though I lost, but it just shocked me to hear that i have not been doing what people are suggesting to me.

I don't think anybody is accusing you of whining!  And as people have stated, there has been some contradictory advice here (partially because the kingdom is complex, partially because people didn't notice you were playing with 3 players).  Don't give up on the game and don't consider yourself stupid just for not getting it right away.  Dominion can be played casually but there is a lot of depth as you become more familiar with it and move into competitive play.  Even veterans stumble frequently.  I think many Dominion fans like the game so much simply because there is always more to learn, always more room to grow as a player.  Just because you are confused right now is no reason to stop.  You said that you had fun trying to improve, which is pretty much all the reason you need to keep going. 

[minovsky]

You did get some contradictory advice in this thread because it is not a simple kingdom. It is different in two and three player. You can adjust your play to match your opponents strategy. Differences in the decks can shift the balance of forager vs silver vs scheme, mountebank vs soothsayer vs wharf, and tournament vs advisor. You tried to get the most complex deck to work and something simpler may have offered more success.

I apologize sincerely if I sounded rude, but I am such a noob in this game that I really cannot tell the deck that I was going for was a complex one, everything that people told me are complex enough for me that i need time to go over and think and try. specifically everyone has been telling me mountebank is better than soothsayer so I only think it's fair for me to question why a real player (not a bot) won when she got soothsayer and did not even start gathering forager until mid-game. On top of that, I just reviewed that game again and she even got an island in T4, again a card that almost everyone told me it's not helpful to get. I know that I can and should adjust my play to match my opponents' strategy to become better, and that's why I have been posting all the game logs to ask for some insights on where I could have played differently.

I totally agree that there are contradictory advices here, and that's exactly why I can't understand how could it be that it was my opponent who "just follows all the advice you've received in this thread" when I had at the same time been trying hard to replay and improve, taking into consideration what people had suggested.

So I also didn't notice the 3-player tag at the beginning, which definitely changes things a lot.  If both other players go Mountebank, you won't be able to keep up on trashing without 4-5 Foragers--noting that this still might be maintainable, especially once you can get Wharves via Uni.

Some sample games against bots.  A few notes though.  First, these are bots.  They start the game dumb, and they don't adapt as the game progresses.

Second, the bots are going Soothsayer instead of Mountebank.  What's interesting is that this seems to be good against Mountebank/BM, but not against a trashing engine.  It gets Gold into your deck, but against trashing, the extra draw for your opponent makes trashing those Curses easier.  Against Mountebank, though, the Gold gains may overpower the Copper gains.

Third, the bots aren't contesting Wharves in many cases.  So it's really, really hard to compare these to actual play.  I guess if someone wanted to take the time in Dominiate, these could be simulated, but man that would be hard.

Note:  These aren't cherry-picked.  Before anyone makes the claim.  They are, however, in no sense optimized.  This is just me doing a few games in my spare time for the heck of it.
----

OK, so what can we learn from this?

One:  Trashing with Forager seems to be better than no trashing.

Two:  The bots are dumb.

Three:  Soothsayer might well be better here for BM than Mountebank.  So if the bots are, on average, going after BM, maybe they're not actually as dumb as we think.

Four:  If no one is contesting Forager, feel free to trash your non-Copper treasures once each for a gigantic boost.  In the end-game, don't be shy of trashing actions if Forager gets you $3.

Five:  Payload is key.  Mountebank as payload just doesn't do it because it's terminal.  Tournament as non-terminal payload was incredibly helpful.

Six:  Tournament is a swingy card, and always will be.  Trusty Steed and Princess in the last few turns can be the difference between winning handily and failing.

Wow many thanks for all the games and your analysis. I really appreciate it and will slowly go through each and everyone of them. I will put in more thoughts about tournament, it's not a card that I normally would go for before all these since I am always concerned it will clog up the deck during late game (my friend though, is very fond of it and buys it on every game where it's available).

"Against Mountebank, though, the Gold gains may overpower the Copper gains." <--- that actually makes sense why I have lost to soothsayer, especially once after the curse pile is emptied.

I don't think anybody is accusing you of whining!  And as people have stated, there has been some contradictory advice here (partially because the kingdom is complex, partially because people didn't notice you were playing with 3 players).  Don't give up on the game and don't consider yourself stupid just for not getting it right away.  Dominion can be played casually but there is a lot of depth as you become more familiar with it and move into competitive play.  Even veterans stumble frequently.  I think many Dominion fans like the game so much simply because there is always more to learn, always more room to grow as a player.  Just because you are confused right now is no reason to stop.  You said that you had fun trying to improve, which is pretty much all the reason you need to keep going. 

thanks for this. I just didn't want people to misinterpret me as being a crybaby when I post my losses and ask why; if i had been i wouldn't have played the same kingdom over and over again. I genuinely love dominion, I only started playing it for less than 2 months and I already got the goko cards as well as 3 physical expansions on top of the base game. I enjoy it as quick evening entertainment to play with my friend, and at the same time i want to be able to get better to go into competitive play like you said it. I program on the side for my own leisure and I am even planning to build a new randomizer app as I want something more flexible than the ones available currently. I will probably stop this kingdom for a while though and revisit it again later, and for the moment switch gear to practice with the base+seaside+prosperity cards which I have physical copies of (I have alchemy too as i got the big box but most people don't seem to be fond of it).

[eHalcyon]

On Mountebank vs. Soothsayer, part of the reason for the contradicting advice is that Soothsayer is one of the newest cards and is thus not well understood.  I think most people would consider it to be weaker than Mountebank, but it's not clear.  I would expect Mountebank to be stronger, but I think Soothsayer could get a leg up with 3 players.  With two opponents and multiple cursers on the board, there's more chance that Mountebank gets blocked by one or both opponents, which weakens it.  Soothsayer gains Gold, which is good for BM strategies.  It can be tougher to build engines in 3p because there are fewer kingdom cards per player available, which makes BM stronger.

On the other cards...

Island is fine but it's not something to rely on to keep your deck clean.  It's too slow for that purpose because you need to gain it and cycle through to it before it's useful, and even then you have to hope that it lines up with a junk card you actually want to put away (preferably a VP card).  It's not adequate as defense against junking attacks.  Forager is on the board, which is much better for trashing.

I wouldn't be too interested in University or Advisor on this board either.  University is pretty slow and Advisor will just draw all the junk you'll be getting from opponents' Mountebanks and Soothsayers.  Wharf is far more important and can be pursued directly.

I'd pick up a Forager or two, maybe an early Tournament.  Mountebank or Soothsayer if opponents aren't getting them.  Otherwise, I'd just be after a few Wharves.  If I get lucky, I take Trusty Steed as a prize.  It can act as a village if I have multiple Wharves in hand... but the thing I'd be more interested in is the silver flooding option.  Wharf is a very strong BM enabler and the extra silvers can be very good, especially in a junked deck.  I'm not so fond of the engine because the village support is poor, IMHO.

It wouldn't quite be BM because I'm looking at quite a few cards (Forager, Mountebank/Soothsayer, Wharf), and that's fine.

FWIW, a lot of people will tell you to try for the engine as often as possible.  Engines are the strongest option on most boards, I think, but they are also the most complex.  That shouldn't necessarily scare you off.  It's worthwhile to attempt engines and fail, because you learn from the attempt.  Nonetheless, it can also be worthwhile to try the BM strategy.  BM is sometimes the answer, and it's good to have a feel for how fast BM can be so you know if your engine can compete.  And sometimes you just have to take a break from the complicated attempts and go for the simple win.

[minovsky]

On Mountebank vs. Soothsayer, part of the reason for the contradicting advice is that Soothsayer is one of the newest cards and is thus not well understood.  I think most people would consider it to be weaker than Mountebank, but it's not clear.  I would expect Mountebank to be stronger, but I think Soothsayer could get a leg up with 3 players.  With two opponents and multiple cursers on the board, there's more chance that Mountebank gets blocked by one or both opponents, which weakens it.  Soothsayer gains Gold, which is good for BM strategies.  It can be tougher to build engines in 3p because there are fewer kingdom cards per player available, which makes BM stronger.

On the other cards...

Island is fine but it's not something to rely on to keep your deck clean.  It's too slow for that purpose because you need to gain it and cycle through to it before it's useful, and even then you have to hope that it lines up with a junk card you actually want to put away (preferably a VP card).  It's not adequate as defense against junking attacks.  Forager is on the board, which is much better for trashing.

I wouldn't be too interested in University or Advisor on this board either.  University is pretty slow and Advisor will just draw all the junk you'll be getting from opponents' Mountebanks and Soothsayers.  Wharf is far more important and can be pursued directly.

I'd pick up a Forager or two, maybe an early Tournament.  Mountebank or Soothsayer if opponents aren't getting them.  Otherwise, I'd just be after a few Wharves.  If I get lucky, I take Trusty Steed as a prize.  It can act as a village if I have multiple Wharves in hand... but the thing I'd be more interested in is the silver flooding option.  Wharf is a very strong BM enabler and the extra silvers can be very good, especially in a junked deck.  I'm not so fond of the engine because the village support is poor, IMHO.

It wouldn't quite be BM because I'm looking at quite a few cards (Forager, Mountebank/Soothsayer, Wharf), and that's fine.

FWIW, a lot of people will tell you to try for the engine as often as possible.  Engines are the strongest option on most boards, I think, but they are also the most complex.  That shouldn't necessarily scare you off.  It's worthwhile to attempt engines and fail, because you learn from the attempt.  Nonetheless, it can also be worthwhile to try the BM strategy.  BM is sometimes the answer, and it's good to have a feel for how fast BM can be so you know if your engine can compete.  And sometimes you just have to take a break from the complicated attempts and go for the simple win.

This is very good advice. Just like you said I normally prefer to go for engine, just because it feels more fun, but you raise a very good point that I should be familiar with BM as well so I would know how well a potential engine can compete.

I haven't viewed trusty steed as a village before... now I can see why the bots would go for it first when they get their prize. For me, I used to get princess just because I thought the $2 reduction in province sounds like a good deal, especially if i can scheme her and play her twice in a row.

Just another question about advisor, doesn't cycling my deck that has lots of junk faster makes it worthwhile? True my useful cards will get discarded, but overall doesn't the faster recycling make up for it?

[Kirian]

Wow many thanks for all the games and your analysis. I really appreciate it and will slowly go through each and everyone of them. I will put in more thoughts about tournament, it's not a card that I normally would go for before all these since I am always concerned it will clog up the deck during late game (my friend though, is very fond of it and buys it on every game where it's available).

"Against Mountebank, though, the Gold gains may overpower the Copper gains." <--- that actually makes sense why I have lost to soothsayer, especially once after the curse pile is emptied.

Don't take much time to go through them too slowly!  I certainly didn't; most of these were five-minute games, and I didn't think a ton.

I don't think anybody is accusing you of whining!  And as people have stated, there has been some contradictory advice here (partially because the kingdom is complex, partially because people didn't notice you were playing with 3 players).  Don't give up on the game and don't consider yourself stupid just for not getting it right away.  Dominion can be played casually but there is a lot of depth as you become more familiar with it and move into competitive play.  Even veterans stumble frequently.  I think many Dominion fans like the game so much simply because there is always more to learn, always more room to grow as a player.  Just because you are confused right now is no reason to stop.  You said that you had fun trying to improve, which is pretty much all the reason you need to keep going. 

I can't agree more with what eHalcyon says here.  The whole reason this forum exists is that lots of people find it fun to try to figure out what's best for a given set.

I wouldn't be too interested in University or Advisor on this board either.  University is pretty slow and Advisor will just draw all the junk you'll be getting from opponents' Mountebanks and Soothsayers.  Wharf is far more important and can be pursued directly.

And I can't disagree more here.  If you're going to clear out with Forager and you're getting smacked by Curses, $5 is going to get hard to hit very quickly.  Picking up a Potion at $4, then Universities on the third shuffle, are almost certainly just as fast as losing trash tempo by buying Silver, and hoping to hit $5 more than once.