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[vandergus]

First off, hi all. New player here doing my best to climb the isotropic leader boards. I'm still firmly in the exploratory phase, though, so I wanted to get some feedback on a recent game.

Game log

Kingdom

$2 Chapel Courtyard	$3 Fishing Village
$4 Salvager Sea Hag Noble Brigand	$5 City Treasury Margrave Library

I'll just highlight the notable turns to speed things up.

Turn 1: My opponent (Mole5000) opens with a 5/2 split and buys a Treasury (I assume a Chapel will follow). I'm wondering how some of the other 5/2 options would work out. Margrave/Chapel seems good but a little risky. I'd feel pretty dumb if I drew the Chapel off the Margrave after the reshuffle. On the other hand, an early Margrave makes it really hard for your opponent to Chapel their own deck effectively. Either way, I'm a little worried about the extra boost in coin that the Treasury will give him and try to find something to slow him down. I don't have enough experience with Noble Brigand to know if it would be enough so I go with the tried and true cursing attack. I open with Sea Hag/Chapel.

Turn 3: The luck swings back my way as I get to play Sea Hag and buy a Fishing Village (very important!) then Chapel my whole next hand.

Turn 8: We've both thinned our decks down and Mole5000 is going all in on the Treasuries. I get my first 5$ hand and buy a Margrave. This will keep him from starting with 5 Treasuries every turn and also let me draw my whole deck. The Fishing Villages are all stars here because they allow me to play both the Sea Hag and Margrave, which means I'm basically cursing and limiting him to a 3 card hand every turn. I start going after treasure.

Turn 10: I buy a Treasury this turn and the next. I think it was an attempt at Treasury denial that wasn't really necessary at this point. Should I have just bought Gold?

Turn 12: Buy my first Province. Mole5000's deck can't seem to get over the hump. It's a little nerve wracking to see him play 4 Treasuries a turn but the fact that their not turning into anything is a good sign. I can't tell if it's my attacks that are slowing him down or just bad draws. He also mentions that he's "messed this up" in the chat but I couldn't identify any obvious mistakes.

Turn 14: I miss my Margrave due to the Province buying, which gives my opponent a window to get a Province of his own. With a 3-1 lead, I'm not too concernced.

Turn 18: I have a 5-2 Province lead but my deck is starting to bog down. I buy a Salvager to finish things off on the reshuffle.

Turn 20: Final score 37-17.
Mole5000: 2 Province, 2 Gold, 1 City, 2 Duchy, 6 Treasury, 3 Silver, 1 Chapel, 2 Estate, 2 Copper, 3 Curse
vandergus: 5 Province, 1 Gold, 2 Duchy, 1 Margrave, 2 Treasury, 1 Salvager, 2 Fishing Village, 1 Silver, 1 Chapel, 1 Estate

Their are a few interactions I'd like people's thoughts on. First off, Sea Hag as a counter to Treasury. From what I can reason, it basically turns the first Treasury into a copper. In other words, you get 1$ with no actions spent but you use a card (since the Treasury is replaced by a curse). Subsequent Treasuries are unaffected, though, and Treasuries are usually bought in bunches. Is this sound thinking?

Secondly, assuming I already have both Fishing Villages in play, is it better to play the Margrave first or the Sea Hag. I know he'll be drawing the top card of his deck next turn off the Treasuries so that makes me want to play the Sea Hag second, leaving a curse on top. On the other hand, I don't want him to see a potentially good card from the Margrave draw, so I want to play Sea Hag first. Or is it all a wash.

I'd also like to hear comments about strategies both of us may have overlooked. Maybe some sort of cool Salvager deck?

[DStu]

Hi also!

Their are a few interactions I'd like people's thoughts on. First off, Sea Hag as a counter to Treasury. From what I can reason, it basically turns the first Treasury into a copper. In other words, you get 1$ with no actions spent but you use a card (since the Treasury is replaced by a curse). Subsequent Treasuries are unaffected, though, and Treasuries are usually bought in bunches. Is this sound thinking?

Of course on can think like that, but I don't know if one really wants to put it that way. Treasury is not that strong of a card that you need to consider countering it specifically, and SeaHag is a card that is usually strong and need to be considered. So saying that the strong card counters the weak is of course true, but if you put it like that most cursers counter most other cards.
Long story short: Sea Hag was a good decision here.

Margrave also: As a rule of thumb, if there is a "discard to 3" in the set for $5 or more (Margrave, Goons, (Torturer)), getting it asap is what you want, because if you get it before your opponent, he has a hard time coming to $5 with just 3 cards, and you are save from getting attacked as long as he doesn't get this card. Especially if you can play it often, as in the Chapelsetting.

Secondly, assuming I already have both Fishing Villages in play, is it better to play the Margrave first or the Sea Hag. I know he'll be drawing the top card of his deck next turn off the Treasuries so that makes me want to play the Sea Hag second, leaving a curse on top. On the other hand, I don't want him to see a potentially good card from the Margrave draw, so I want to play Sea Hag first. Or is it all a wash.

Don't really know. Usually you want his current bad over his next hand bad. But may depend on the situation.

I'd also like to hear comments about strategies both of us may have overlooked. Maybe some sort of cool Salvager deck?

Don't think so. Sea Hag, Chapel, Margrave are the cards that seems more interesting. One may think about the Noble Brigand exactly at the moment when your opponent has a very small deck with little treasure, so the NB is a danger when you want to go heavy Chapel.  Crossroads looks interesting for the end of the game, as Chapeldecks tends to get very green, there a XR or two will help to overcome this. Especially as you have +Buy to pick them up late.  Salvager is good for accelerating, but you don't really need it early.  City might get interesting if both player go for the Hag, but as this didn't happen...

[theory]

For what it's worth, you can learn more by posting a game in which you lose   It's more difficult to do, and no one really does it, but studying your losses is more productive in the long run.

As far as this game goes, Sea Hag / Chapel is definitely the top opening.  Cursing attacks retain their bite even with strong trashing (except maybe Young Witch?).  Subsequently, depending on what money I'm drawing, I would do what you did (FV/Margrave), though for the draw rather than the attack.  Alternately, I might rush Cities, since you know Curses will run out. 

[DG]

Their are a few interactions I'd like people's thoughts on. First off, Sea Hag as a counter to Treasury. From what I can reason, it basically turns the first Treasury into a copper. In other words, you get 1$ with no actions spent but you use a card (since the Treasury is replaced by a curse). Subsequent Treasuries are unaffected, though, and Treasuries are usually bought in bunches. Is this sound thinking?

Yes. The treasury promotes your attack on the next turn and makes it an attack on the current turn. However in this deck it's quite likely that an opponent will be using a margrave, library, or treasury so they all share the same problem. You probably could have bought gold instead of your own treasuries since you were going to buy provinces in subsequent turns. Library and fishing village is an alternative combination here if you add a +buy card. The salvager can't defend properly against the sea hag so start with a chapel and take a salvager to finish if needed.

[Robz888]

Turn 10: I buy a Treasury this turn and the next. I think it was an attempt at Treasury denial that wasn't really necessary at this point. Should I have just bought Gold?

I would say you should have just bought Gold. Treasury is rarely an all-star, but if you want it, you need it early. By Turn 10 you are ready to go green, and going green means negating Treasury's main selling point (the fact that you can return it to the top of your deck so long as you don't buy Victory cards). When you're in the greening stage, Treasury has to draw a silver or silver equivalent just to equal a Gold.

That said, I don't think your opponent's Treasuries really shined, even though they were purchased early. Margrave/Chapel seems like a better opener for him. Even City/Chapel would have had merit, knowing that Sea Hag would almost certainly be utilized to drain the curses.

[vandergus]

Thanks for the feedback, everybody!

Of course on can think like that, but I don't know if one really wants to put it that way. Treasury is not that strong of a card that you need to consider countering it specifically, and SeaHag is a card that is usually strong and need to be considered. So saying that the strong card counters the weak is of course true, but if you put it like that most cursers counter most other cards.
Long story short: Sea Hag was a good decision here.

That makes a lot of sense. I really wasn't sure how high to value Treasury. Seeing long action chains is always scary but sometimes they're more bark than bite, I guess.

For what it's worth, you can learn more by posting a game in which you lose   It's more difficult to do, and no one really does it, but studying your losses is more productive in the long run.

Will do. I've got lot's of those under my belt

You probably could have bought gold instead of your own treasuries since you were going to buy provinces in subsequent turns. Library and fishing village is an alternative combination here if you add a +buy card. The salvager can't defend properly against the sea hag so start with a chapel and take a salvager to finish if needed.

I would say you should have just bought Gold. Treasury is rarely an all-star, but if you want it, you need it early. By Turn 10 you are ready to go green, and going green means negating Treasury's main selling point (the fact that you can return it to the top of your deck so long as you don't buy Victory cards). When you're in the greening stage, Treasury has to draw a silver or silver equivalent just to equal a Gold.

Sounds good. During the game I had kind of forgotten that Treasuries get worse once the first Province is bought. Not as big a deal in a heavily thinned deck but, yeah, not better than Gold.