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[JW]

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Pearl Diver, Secret Chamber, Masquerade, Armory, Pirate Ship, Remake, Upgrade, Hunting Grounds, Forge, King's Court
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140228/log.50ba29b8e4b015dcbac5f45a.1393646584660.txt

Provinces/Estates. My opponent (Polk5440) goes engine here on 5/2 with Upgrade/Pearl Diver. I play straight Masquerade BM on 4/3 and get fortunate to get Gold on turn 4. He Upgrades Hunting Grounds to Kings Court/Duchy, but his deck doesn't come together in time, in part due to a bad KC/KC/Armory collision on turn 14.

I'm about to buy the final province and already have over half the remaining VP when my computer crashes. When I looked at the log  I saw that my opponent generously resigned to give me the win.

Is the engine the way to go here? The lack of lack of a cheap village (and only Pearl Diver as a cantrip for Armory to pick up) seems like a big hurdle. Is Upgrade/Remake on Hunting Grounds into KC/Duchy and KC into Province sufficient for a mega turn? Thoughts appreciated!

[A Drowned Kernel]

I could almost see the case for Pirate Ship on this board, actually, especially if your opponent goes for Masq-BM. Hard to think about how you'd do it, but upgrade, remake and/or masq to thin down, then just start KC-Pirate ship?

Edit: Nevermind, Secret chamber is there, kind of kills Pirate Ship doesn't it.

[sudgy]

I could almost see the case for Pirate Ship on this board, actually, especially if your opponent goes for Masq-BM. Hard to think about how you'd do it, but upgrade, remake and/or masq to thin down, then just start KC-Pirate ship?

Edit: Nevermind, Secret chamber is there, kind of kills Pirate Ship doesn't it.

I one time went for a BM strategy against someone that I knew would go for Pirate Ship.  So, I bought a bunch of Secret Chambers, and I crushed.  I think he only got one successful hit on me.

[ragingduckd]

I would go engine without a second throught.  Upgrade and KC together almost demands it, regardless of the lack of villages, but there's a further -- and really nasty -- possibility here.  KC-Pirate Ship followed by KC-Masq.  That engine can allow Masq-BM to get half the VP and the game still isn't even close to being over: trash all your opp's treasure, trade him some Copper for his VP, and repeat.  I'd plan on doing something like this before buying a single VP.

In the actual game, you really brutalized Polk by hitting $6 on T4, T5, and T7.  That's about as good as it gets for Masq-BM.  I also think that the early Armory was a pretty big mistake for Polk.  It might be useful once the KC engine is running, but early on it's much more important to slim down and/or to get to $7 ASAP.

[SCSN]

The correct answer can be derived just from the thread's title.

[jaybeez]

Everything AI said, plus there's a couple other factors favoring the engine player.  For one, the on-trash effect of Hunting Grounds gives you some endgame control.  Even more than that, if you can get the deck slimmed down enough with lots of KCs it's not totally farfetched to do something like Armory for a couple $4s, draw them, and Forge them into a Province consistently a few turns in a row.  That kind of virtual +Buy can help you catch up fast, and with Remake, Masq, and Upgrade available you can really get the engine off the ground quickly too.

Edit: also consider: Forge HG and a $2 for a net gain of +9 VP without using a buy.  So many possibilities for the engine to have huge turns at the end to surge ahead.

[JW]

That kind of virtual +Buy can help you catch up fast, and with Remake, Masq, and Upgrade available you can really get the engine off the ground quickly too.

Thanks for the pointers, everyone.

Jaybeez, you mention Remake which, looking at the board, I wouldn't have planned to buy early for the engine. How would you open on 4/3? Remake/Masquerade?

In building the engine, is it correct that you want to ignore Armory and Hunting Grounds until after you have KC (or get HG after you have a thin deck and you have a good chance to Upgrade HG into KC/Duchy right away).

[WanderingWinder]

The correct answer can be derived just from the thread's title.

This is hyperbole, BUT... in general, if you are considering it, err on the side of engine - it's right more often than not.

[qmech]

The correct answer can be derived just from the thread's title.

This is hyperbole, BUT... in general, if you are considering it, err on the side of engine - it's right more often than not.

I have a sense that this was not always the case: I used to win a lot of games because I could execute BM well when opponents went for fancy engines.  Recently BM is ending up with me looking daft more often than not.  Is this a consequence of average player skill increasing, or more engine possibilities opening up with the cards in the later sets?  If it's the sets, can we say when the transition occurred?  Dark Ages?

[WanderingWinder]

The correct answer can be derived just from the thread's title.

This is hyperbole, BUT... in general, if you are considering it, err on the side of engine - it's right more often than not.

I have a sense that this was not always the case: I used to win a lot of games because I could execute BM well when opponents went for fancy engines.  Recently BM is ending up with me looking daft more often than not.  Is this a consequence of average player skill increasing, or more engine possibilities opening up with the cards in the later sets?  If it's the sets, can we say when the transition occurred?  Dark Ages?

A combination but mostly better players. Having most every card being good really helps though, so... somewhere around Seaside-Prosperity? Dark Ages really blows it open though - 35 cards and basically all of them are more useful in engines. Only... Feodum, Rebuild, and maybe Scavenger are better for BM, and Feodum and aren't all that clear (certainly not strong BM indicators).

But mostly people learned how to play engines better (used to green too early mostly, I think)

Edit: Also people understand better now that getting the engine rolling is a much sooner priority than getting its economy going.

[jaybeez]

That kind of virtual +Buy can help you catch up fast, and with Remake, Masq, and Upgrade available you can really get the engine off the ground quickly too.

Thanks for the pointers, everyone.

Jaybeez, you mention Remake which, looking at the board, I wouldn't have planned to buy early for the engine. How would you open on 4/3? Remake/Masquerade?

In building the engine, is it correct that you want to ignore Armory and Hunting Grounds until after you have KC (or get HG after you have a thin deck and you have a good chance to Upgrade HG into KC/Duchy right away).

Well, skipping Remake might actually be the right call here, I'm not sure.  I would probably open Masq/Silver looking to get some Upgrades going to start thinning and turning an Estate or two into Silvers (gotta hit $7, and quickly).  But Remake/Silver might work too.  My point was just that Masq and Remake are two of the best cards in the game for both ramping up your economy and trimming your deck early on, and Upgrade helps you sustain the thinning process into the midgame without getting in the way of the engine.  So even if you end up ignoring one of them, their presence (and Upgrade's) should be pushing you towards the engine.

In building the engine I think you definitely want to ignore Armory until the endgame.  And although you definitely want KC first, getting one HG before a KC could be an okay move if you happen to hit $6 at the right moment, don't need any more Upgrades, and have enough Treasure that playing the HG could help you get to $7.  I think?

[dondon151]

Edit: Nevermind, Secret chamber is there, kind of kills Pirate Ship doesn't it.

SC would be hard pressed to block all three hits of a KC'd Pirate Ship.

[KingZog3]

Edit: Nevermind, Secret chamber is there, kind of kills Pirate Ship doesn't it.

SC would be hard pressed to block all three hits of a KC'd Pirate Ship.

Plus you need to put back non-treasures. So you'll be discarding your action cards. You won't have enough VP cards to block 3 attacks in a row.

[Robz888]

I don't believe in Pirate Ship. Here, okay, a Kinged Pirate is going to destroy a money deck, b can't you get around money entirely here? You can Upgrade or Remake your Hunting Grounds into Kings Court and Duchy, and then Upgrade the King into Province. I don't know if its the best thing here but I bet it's better than anything involving Pirate Ship.

[KingZog3]

I don't believe in Pirate Ship. Here, okay, a Kinged Pirate is going to destroy a money deck, b can't you get around money entirely here? You can Upgrade or Remake your Hunting Grounds into Kings Court and Duchy, and then Upgrade the King into Province. I don't know if its the best thing here but I bet it's better than anything involving Pirate Ship.

I seriously doubt this is better. For one there's no +buy and only Armory to gain. So you need to travel from Remake>Upgrade>HG>KC>Province. And lets say you use money to buy things. Well then you have lots of cards that get in the way of the cards you need to line up with Upgrade. Plus the gained Duchies will fill your deck, further enhancing the problem. The only virtual money is Pirate Ship, which can be KC'd and only takes up 1 card.

You'll also need a lot of KC's just to pull off a draw engine. So Upgrading them just destroys your deck. I don't see this as a viable strategy. Someone do this in single player and prove me wrong.

[GeoLib]

I don't believe in Pirate Ship. Here, okay, a Kinged Pirate is going to destroy a money deck, b can't you get around money entirely here? You can Upgrade or Remake your Hunting Grounds into Kings Court and Duchy, and then Upgrade the King into Province. I don't know if its the best thing here but I bet it's better than anything involving Pirate Ship.

I feel like you're letting your (justifiable) dislike for pirate ship cloud your judgement here. Yes PS is generally weak, but I think it's the right call here, especially against a BM opponent. Maybe if both players go engine then your strategy would be preferable.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I don't believe in Pirate Ship. Here, okay, a Kinged Pirate is going to destroy a money deck, b can't you get around money entirely here? You can Upgrade or Remake your Hunting Grounds into Kings Court and Duchy, and then Upgrade the King into Province. I don't know if its the best thing here but I bet it's better than anything involving Pirate Ship.

I seriously doubt this is better. For one there's no +buy and only Armory to gain. So you need to travel from Remake>Upgrade>HG>KC>Province. And lets say you use money to buy things. Well then you have lots of cards that get in the way of the cards you need to line up with Upgrade. Plus the gained Duchies will fill your deck, further enhancing the problem. The only virtual money is Pirate Ship, which can be KC'd and only takes up 1 card.

You'll also need a lot of KC's just to pull off a draw engine. So Upgrading them just destroys your deck. I don't see this as a viable strategy. Someone do this in single player and prove me wrong.

Here's my first try:

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140301/log.51201cbee4b04e88c8da4f9a.1393726369763.txt

It's all the Provinces in 15 turns, but I am churning through about a million piles to do it, so it's not like you could play it this way exactly in a real game. It's worth noting though, that you can adjust the play a bit and still have a similar style deck without running quite so many piles. You just need to substitute Golds for HG, Remakes for Upgrades, and Forges for KCs in the upgrading ladder.

I was doing this by feel, it could be sped up with better play (my early draws are pretty good though). I don't think I get a good balance of draw to remodelers at any point (my draw seems weak). I should be keeping the Hunting Grounds and switch to Upgrading through Golds at some point. At least early on though, the Duchy gaining with HG is very nice and acts as pseudo-buy. I am surely under utilizing Remake, Armory, and Forge. The deck suffers from the problem that you probably need to buy at least one $6/$7 engine piece and this is hard because your deck doesn't want money. Perhaps you can skip this with fast enough Remaking/Upgrading, I dunno.

I don't really need as many KCs as I get, you could substitute a lot of those for Forges at the end, though this will certainly make it harder to start the KC chain.

In any case, the engine needs to take advantage of the synergy of the Upgrade/Remake with the million $7s on the board. It is the only way to multi-Province. If the game isn't totally lopsided (in a mirror), the person who can take advantage of this more effectively  has a much better shot at winning.

For sure you want to wreck a BM player with Pirates.

[JW]

Here's my first try:

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140301/log.51201cbee4b04e88c8da4f9a.1393726369763.txt

For sure you want to wreck a BM player with Pirates.

Thanks, that was very helpful to see!

In other news, I beat AI with a King's Court-HoP megaturn using Moat for draw. He was a good sport about all the time I spent thinking about how to play my hands. 

Lots I know I could improve on, but I was happy to pull it off. When AI transitioned to a treasure deck with Golds and Masterpiece on turns 13-15, I knew I had good chances if I could focus enough for a HoP mega turn but I was not going to win a money mirror. 

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140303/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1393836332818.txt
Candlestick Maker, Moat, Masterpiece, Ironworks, Young Witch, Counterfeit, Horn of Plenty, Junk Dealer, Outpost, Altar, King's Court
Provinces/Estates, Bane: Candlestick Maker