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[WanderingWinder]

Yup, I'm looking for a lawyer, because there's a new ToS.

Important bits (to me) excerpted:

If you do post Content, and unless we indicate otherwise, you grant Making Fun a nonexclusive, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, and fully sublicensable right to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, display, or otherwise exploit in any manner, such Content throughout the world in any media. You grant Making Fun and sublicensees the right to use the name that you submit in connection with such Content, if they choose. You represent and warrant that: (i) you own or otherwise control all of the rights to the Content that you post and/or submit; (ii) the Content is accurate; (iii) the use of the Content you post and/or submit does not violate these Terms; and (iv) the Content will not cause injury to any person or entity.

Making Fun has the right but not the obligation to monitor and edit or remove any activity or Content. Making Fun takes no responsibility and assumes no liability for any Content posted by you or any third party.

And

We grant you a limited, personal, revocable, non-transferable, non-sublicensable and non-exclusive license to access and make use of the Service and the Materials solely in accordance with, and subject to, these Terms and any other of our policies as posted within the Service. Except as otherwise expressly permitted by these Terms, you may not: (i) collect, use, copy or distribute any portion of the Service or the Materials; (ii) resell, publicly perform or publicly display any portion of the Service or the Materials; (iii) modify or otherwise make any derivative uses of any portion of the Service or the Materials; (iv) use any “deep-link,” “page-scrape,” “robot,” “spider” or other automatic device, program, algorithm or methodology which perform similar functions to access, acquire, copy, or monitor any portion of the Service; (v) use the Service in a manner which results in the depletion of the infrastructural resources of the Service; or (vi) use the Service or the Materials other than for their intended purposes.

So, my question is, what does this mean?

[Watno]

Also, aren't they required to have some kind of popup asking us to accept these terms?

[WanderingWinder]

Also, aren't they required to have some kind of popup asking us to accept these terms?

According to the ToS, we have to magically know and implicitly accept any changes as soon as they make them, by our continued use of the service.

...which is INSANE, but something you see just about everywhere.

[soulnet]

It seems that streaming or even recording and then uploading games is forbidden under this ToS, right? WW, is that what you were worried about?

[DG]

At least Making Fun of Goko is now official.

[theory]

I guarantee you no one thought about the actual implications when they drafted this, and just threw in boilerplate copy/pasted from a previous document.  I would be very surprised indeed if they actually pursued any action against anyone for streaming, and besides, what possible damages could they seek?

[AHoppy]

use any “deep-link,” “page-scrape,” “robot,” “spider” or other automatic device, program, algorithm or methodology which perform similar functions to access, acquire, copy, or monitor any portion of the Service;

Doesn't this kill the extension?

[KingZog3]

use any “deep-link,” “page-scrape,” “robot,” “spider” or other automatic device, program, algorithm or methodology which perform similar functions to access, acquire, copy, or monitor any portion of the Service;

Doesn't this kill the extension?

That's what I thought when I read the terms. Except they would be morons to kill it. They would kill a lot of the player base and make people just annoyed with them.

[Mike McCallister]

I'm not a Goko subscriber. Is there a link to the complete ToS publicly available?

Looking just at the bits you've posted,

... you may not: (i) collect, use, copy or distribute any portion of the Service or the Materials; (ii) resell, publicly perform or publicly display any portion of the Service or the Materials; (iii) modify or otherwise make any derivative uses of any portion of the Service or the Materials; (iv) use any “deep-link,” “page-scrape,” “robot,” “spider” or other automatic device, program, algorithm or methodology which perform similar functions to access, acquire, copy, or monitor any portion of the Service...

This certainly seems to prohibit services like Council Room or Drunken Sailor from using data from Goko. Do any other portions of the ToS make exceptions for the log files?


Mike

[yed]

I'm not a Goko subscriber. Is there a link to the complete ToS publicly available?

http://www.makingfun.com/footer/terms-of-services/
http://www.makingfun.com/footer/privacy-policy/

[Kirian]

Unlike theory, IANAL, but this looks like what he said: copied and pasted from some other service's TOS.  While I imagine they have a lawyer on retainer, I bet they do not have one in house--they can't afford that.

[yed]

Does the ToS even allow playing the game? I mean normally, without extension.

[Kirian]

use any “deep-link,” “page-scrape,” “robot,” “spider” or other automatic device, program, algorithm or methodology which perform similar functions to access

As an example, googling this sentence fragment returns 25000 results.  Including dish.fm and Virgin America.

[Kirian]

a nonexclusive, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, and fully sublicensable right to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute

This one returns about a million records including Yamaha.

[SCSN]

Does the ToS even allow playing the game? I mean normally, without extension.

Nope:

you may not: (i) collect, use, copy or distribute any portion of the Service or the Materials

[Kirian]

And because I've now reached the point of truly amusing, here is Amazon's TOS:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/?nodeId=508088

Read the section on "Reviews, Comments, etc."  Then go read the section of Making Fun's TOS on "User Conduct."  There are differences, but there is a lot of verbiage there that is word-for-word.  I'd love to know who the originator of the language is, because I'm willing to bet it wasn't even Amazon.  It might be, however; I can imagine a few websites copying Amazon's TOS, then the same thing being passed from website to website like a game of telephone written in lawyerese.  Meanwhile all the early wensites are making minor changes to their TOS documents, so you end up with a bunch of documents that could probably be put into a cladogram.

[Witherweaver]

And because I've now reached the point of truly amusing, here is Amazon's TOS:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/?nodeId=508088

Read the section on "Reviews, Comments, etc."  Then go read the section of Making Fun's TOS on "User Conduct."  There are differences, but there is a lot of verbiage there that is word-for-word.  I'd love to know who the originator of the language is, because I'm willing to bet it wasn't even Amazon.  It might be, however; I can imagine a few websites copying Amazon's TOS, then the same thing being passed from website to website like a game of telephone written in lawyerese.  Meanwhile all the early wensites are making minor changes to their TOS documents, so you end up with a bunch of documents that could probably be put into a cladogram.

Twitch Plays Create Terms of Service

[AHoppy]

Does the ToS even allow playing the game? I mean normally, without extension.

Nope:

you may not: (i) collect, use, copy or distribute any portion of the Service or the Materials

First, I thought you had quoted it out of context and there was more to the sentence.  I was wrong... Wow...

[SCSN]

And because I've now reached the point of truly amusing, here is Amazon's TOS:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/?nodeId=508088

Read the section on "Reviews, Comments, etc."  Then go read the section of Making Fun's TOS on "User Conduct."  There are differences, but there is a lot of verbiage there that is word-for-word.  I'd love to know who the originator of the language is, because I'm willing to bet it wasn't even Amazon.  It might be, however; I can imagine a few websites copying Amazon's TOS, then the same thing being passed from website to website like a game of telephone written in lawyerese.  Meanwhile all the early wensites are making minor changes to their TOS documents, so you end up with a bunch of documents that could probably be put into a cladogram.

That would really be the greatest troll attempt ever: smuggle into the ToS of some well-known service a statement expressly prohibiting its use, then lean back and watch it being copied far and wide.

[LastFootnote]

Does the ToS even allow playing the game? I mean normally, without extension.

Nope:

you may not: (i) collect, use, copy or distribute any portion of the Service or the Materials

Ah, this explains why I cannot log into their service. I've been barred for previous use of said service.

[soulnet]

If you cannot use it, then it is not a service, therefore, the ToS makes no sense and can be ignored. Ah, paradoxes.

[sudgy]

I'm not a Goko subscriber. Is there a link to the complete ToS publicly available?

Looking just at the bits you've posted,

... you may not: (i) collect, use, copy or distribute any portion of the Service or the Materials; (ii) resell, publicly perform or publicly display any portion of the Service or the Materials; (iii) modify or otherwise make any derivative uses of any portion of the Service or the Materials; (iv) use any “deep-link,” “page-scrape,” “robot,” “spider” or other automatic device, program, algorithm or methodology which perform similar functions to access, acquire, copy, or monitor any portion of the Service...

This certainly seems to prohibit services like Council Room or Drunken Sailor from using data from Goko. Do any other portions of the ToS make exceptions for the log files?


Mike

They one time suggested to someone to use Drunken Sailor, so I don't think that's going anywhere.

[Polk5440]

IANAL, but I work with them.

Yup, I'm looking for a lawyer, because there's a new ToS.

Important bits (to me) excerpted:

If you do post Content, and unless we indicate otherwise, you grant Making Fun a nonexclusive, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, and fully sublicensable right to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, display, or otherwise exploit in any manner, such Content throughout the world in any media. You grant Making Fun and sublicensees the right to use the name that you submit in connection with such Content, if they choose. You represent and warrant that: (i) you own or otherwise control all of the rights to the Content that you post and/or submit; (ii) the Content is accurate; (iii) the use of the Content you post and/or submit does not violate these Terms; and (iv) the Content will not cause injury to any person or entity.

Making Fun has the right but not the obligation to monitor and edit or remove any activity or Content. Making Fun takes no responsibility and assumes no liability for any Content posted by you or any third party.

Back up a paragraph. Content is referring to within service content:

You agree to assume full and sole responsibility for any Content (as defined below) you post within the Service, and you agree to abide by the Community Guidelines, and any application, forum or game-specific rules published within the Service (all of which are fully incorporated into these Terms). You may post and/or submit reviews, comments, suggestions, ideas, information and/or other content (“Content”) within the Service, including, without limitation, text, writings, photographs, graphics, or other material, so long as such Content is not illegal, obscene, threatening, defamatory, invasive of privacy, infringing of intellectual property rights, or otherwise injurious to third parties or objectionable and does not consist of or contain software viruses, political campaigning, commercial solicitation, chain letters, mass mailings, or any form of “spam.” You may not use a false e-mail address, impersonate any person or entity, or otherwise mislead as to the origin of Content.

This first bit is pretty standard, especially for forums. Anything you type, chat or post on the forum or in game, they get to use. Positive comments can end up in promotional materials; screenshots can be used. Chats can be monitored, curse words filtered, etc. You post things they don't like, they can delete it.

And

We grant you a limited, personal, revocable, non-transferable, non-sublicensable and non-exclusive license to access and make use of the Service and the Materials solely in accordance with, and subject to, these Terms and any other of our policies as posted within the Service. Except as otherwise expressly permitted by these Terms, you may not: (i) collect, use, copy or distribute any portion of the Service or the Materials; (ii) resell, publicly perform or publicly display any portion of the Service or the Materials; (iii) modify or otherwise make any derivative uses of any portion of the Service or the Materials; (iv) use any “deep-link,” “page-scrape,” “robot,” “spider” or other automatic device, program, algorithm or methodology which perform similar functions to access, acquire, copy, or monitor any portion of the Service; (v) use the Service in a manner which results in the depletion of the infrastructural resources of the Service; or (vi) use the Service or the Materials other than for their intended purposes.

So, my question is, what does this mean?

This second bit, while standard, could be problematic.

This section is strict because they loosen it as needed (that's what the "except as otherwise expressly permitted" bit means. So yes, you can play Dominion, as long as you are playing as intended).

(i) and (ii) could be problematic for youtube videos depending on how strictly they want to protect images of the game. Nintendo is notoriously strict about these things. MF reserves the right to shut down things like the extension (iii, iv) and the ability to create a leaderboard by scraping logs (iv). Usually if a company doesn't like this behavior they don't bring legal action, they simply make it more difficult to do (e.g. use of captchas, banning IP addresses that look like computers scraping). Sites that use rating systems like Amazon and travel sites also don't like scraping -- they don't want competitors to easily get access to data on their rating systems, etc, to backward engineer proprietary algorithms. It can still be done, but they make it harder to do. Companies really don't like it if scraping overloads their servers (v, vi). (vi) is an anti-abuse clause.

It is very much an open question in copyright and patent law how much this strict language can and should be enforced.

[WanderingWinder]

So here's what I got out of it: Videos, and probably the extension, are *technically* prohibited by this ToS, unless they make a specific exception. Now, they're almost certainly not going to care, but they need to technically explicitly say so.

I'm fully aware, Polk, that it LOOKS like the first paragraph I posted here is referring to things posted specifically on their site, given the previous paragraph. But that isn't made explicitly clear, and, well, IANAL.

Second paragraph, section ii and iii seem to be the real problems.

I've also posted a thing about this on their forums - they haven't gotten back. Also, there was a post within the last day where someone was saying that the extension isn't working and their response was on the order of "We're not responsible for 3rd-party stuff, I'm sure they'll fix it soon," which seems to imply at least tacit acceptance of the extension.

Videos are, at least potentially, another matter though.


I doubt anything will come of this, but I always find ToSes kinda stupid, mostly because I always actually read them (and they're all more or less the same drivel).

[sudgy]

I one time saw one that, at a part of it said, "Also, you must make me some pancakes."

I don't think they would get mad at videos.  It gives them a lot of players.