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[TheMirrorMan]

Most of the times, two strategies just don't mix.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140225/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1393385888647.txt

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Woodcutter, Herald, Pirate Ship, Taxman, Governor, Hunting Party, Adventurer, Fairgrounds, Hoard, Nobles
Of course you want to have an engine going on here with Herald. But hey, with such nice greens on the board, wouldn't you throw a hoard in ? And the extra gold will come in handy for the Governor!

Well ... I believe it is one big trap here. I got smacked against the wall by asuzu6.

[Destierro]

Herald here is awful. It lacks both gainers to rapidly increase your action density, and trashing to increase it's likelihood to hit. I think that the dominate strategy could either be a Hunting Party stack with Hoard, or a standard Governor stack.Taxman isn't an awful terminal here, but I think that Woodcutter for the +buy would be more important in a HP stack.

[soulnet]

Hoard can be pretty bad against HP+Pirate Ship. But if the opponent goes Pirate Ship, Herald+Nobles+Woodcutter is a reasonable idea. There is a lot of reacting needed on this board, but in all cases you want Woodcutter for the +Buy and you don't want to start with PS from the get go, because you will be crushed by an engine with some free trashing. Nobles are great for an engine as alt-VP and bad for a heavy PS player.

[SCSN]

This is a really interesting kingdom.

Against a good player, a straightforward Hunting Party stack and probably also a standard Governor strategy are suicide, because he will force you to get all 8 Provinces and especially Hunting Party is incapable of going after Fairgrounds without ruining he deck. So you need to prepare for the long game, and the way to do that is indeed with Herald.

I agree with the Herald/Woodcutter open, but what you then need to be looking at is to get a Governor as soon as possible to trash your Estates into more Heralds (and if your opponent goes for Governor too, trash your coppers whenever you can). An early Hoard is worse than useless, because the green and the Golds interfere with the Heralds.

Having looked at the log: apart from the Hoard which should have been a Governor and all the early green which should have been non-green, you got both a 2nd Governor and a Hunting Party that should both have been Heralds. Herald is a better card than Hunting Party given that you are building a Herald deck (where you just really want as much Heralds as possible), and you don't really want an early 2nd Governor because you want to play it exclusively for its Remodel function and you have only 3 Estates to Remodel. Had there been any kind of slightly spammable 2-cost (so no Secret Chamber, but cards as weak as Cellar and Moat would probably suffice) I'd have liked the 2nd Governor a whole lot more because now you can Remodel Coppers.

[soulnet]

Governor can handle getting all 8 Provinces. HP can too, but I see Governor having the best chances. And can also fill the Herald deck with useless Silver for a while. You would be force to deny some Governors, which is difficult to do opening Herald. I think getting 6 Governors would mean game won, even if the opponent has better setup for an engine. With a 5-3 split, it is tougher, but you can start adding Nobles and Remodeling into Heralds.

I don't think opening Herald works at all. The engine is slow to get go, and Governor is really really fast. Against a Herald deck, it is not that terrible to give free draws to the opponent, because all that really matters is how many times the Herald picks an Action.

[KingZog3]

Just a thought, but wouldn't it be safer to use Governor for draw if your opponent goes herald? Herald wants action cards in your deck, but with a big hand there is less chance to hit action cards, so less chance they can play all their terminals. Is this correct reasoning?

[soulnet]

Just a thought, but wouldn't it be safer to use Governor for draw if your opponent goes herald? Herald wants action cards in your deck, but with a big hand there is less chance to hit action cards, so less chance they can play all their terminals. Is this correct reasoning?

Actually, until you draw your deck, the probability of hitting with Herald remains the same (as long as you don't control what you draw and what is left in the deck). My point above was that the limit for how many terminals the Herald player can play is limited by the +Actions, which is more or less limited by the number of Heralds that hit an Action, especially if they don't add Nobles (the other source of +Actions available). If the Herald player adds Treasure, that lowers the probability of hitting Actions, if they don't, then the free cards from Governor are not going to make them a lot of good.

[SCSN]

Governor can handle getting all 8 Provinces. HP can too, but I see Governor having the best chances. And can also fill the Herald deck with useless Silver for a while. You would be force to deny some Governors, which is difficult to do opening Herald. I think getting 6 Governors would mean game won, even if the opponent has better setup for an engine. With a 5-3 split, it is tougher, but you can start adding Nobles and Remodeling into Heralds.

I don't think opening Herald works at all. The engine is slow to get go, and Governor is really really fast. Against a Herald deck, it is not that terrible to give free draws to the opponent, because all that really matters is how many times the Herald picks an Action.

HP is too slow in getting 8 Provinces (it can get them, sure, but not in time), and while I have played about 15 games with Governor in them since Iso went down because I don't own the card, I really really doubt that a Governor strategy can get 8 Provinces before the engine gets 8 6-point Fairgrounds + whatever else it needs.

The Herald deck should actually welcome the free Silvers because it can Remodel them into Heralds via opponent's Governors, and it can now profitably get a 2nd (or more) early governor of its own because you now have the Silvers as Remodel targets to turn them into Hunting Parties/more Governors.

Just a thought, but wouldn't it be safer to use Governor for draw if your opponent goes herald? Herald wants action cards in your deck, but with a big hand there is less chance to hit action cards, so less chance they can play all their terminals. Is this correct reasoning?

If the Herald player would be drawing his deck anyway, your reasoning is correct, but for the first 7-10 turns he won't be able to, so playing Governor for draw still helps him quite a bit, as he isn't more likely to draw actions than non-actions, so on average his Heralds won't be less effective.

[KingZog3]

Just a thought, but wouldn't it be safer to use Governor for draw if your opponent goes herald? Herald wants action cards in your deck, but with a big hand there is less chance to hit action cards, so less chance they can play all their terminals. Is this correct reasoning?

If the Herald player would be drawing his deck anyway, your reasoning is correct, but for the first 7-10 turns he won't be able to, so playing Governor for draw still helps him quite a bit, as he isn't more likely to draw actions than non-actions, so on average his Heralds won't be less effective.

Makes sense.

[soulnet]

My strategy against a Herald deck would be: Buy Governor every time, even with $6 or $8, until they are gone. When playing Governor, only Remodel if you can get another Governor, otherwise, gain a Gold (ocassionally draw depending on tactics and shuffles, like having 3 Governors and nothing else on the deck and wanting to prevent them missing the reshuffle, or doing the opposite to the opponents). After that, just remodel into Provinces and draw a bit more aggressively. When the opponent start using my Remodels to their benefit is too late. If the opponent is using the Silver to buy Governors, the Heralds won't help them a lot and he is basically mirroring, but starting later.

If the opponent still did not build up enough after Governors are gone or almost gone, maybe buy some Nobles to have extra draw and finish the Provinces in two turns maybe.

[markusin]

I can't tell which strategy would be best here, but I think any strategy involving Herald will want some Governors and maybe a couple of Hunting Parties (for Fairgrounds). Don't forget that playing Governor for Remodel will allow your opponent to trash a $5 cost card into a Fairgrounds and the $4 cost Heralds into Duchies. If the Fairgrounds would be worth 6VP, this can completely nullify the value of the Province gains received from a Governor mega-turn.

[Robz888]

Governor can handle getting all 8 Provinces. HP can too, but I see Governor having the best chances. And can also fill the Herald deck with useless Silver for a while. You would be force to deny some Governors, which is difficult to do opening Herald. I think getting 6 Governors would mean game won, even if the opponent has better setup for an engine. With a 5-3 split, it is tougher, but you can start adding Nobles and Remodeling into Heralds.

I don't think opening Herald works at all. The engine is slow to get go, and Governor is really really fast. Against a Herald deck, it is not that terrible to give free draws to the opponent, because all that really matters is how many times the Herald picks an Action.

HP is too slow in getting 8 Provinces (it can get them, sure, but not in time), and while I have played about 15 games with Governor in them since Iso went down because I don't own the card, I really really doubt that a Governor strategy can get 8 Provinces before the engine gets 8 6-point Fairgrounds + whatever else it needs.

The Herald deck should actually welcome the free Silvers because it can Remodel them into Heralds via opponent's Governors, and it can now profitably get a 2nd (or more) early governor of its own because you now have the Silvers as Remodel targets to turn them into Hunting Parties/more Governors.

Just a thought, but wouldn't it be safer to use Governor for draw if your opponent goes herald? Herald wants action cards in your deck, but with a big hand there is less chance to hit action cards, so less chance they can play all their terminals. Is this correct reasoning?

If the Herald player would be drawing his deck anyway, your reasoning is correct, but for the first 7-10 turns he won't be able to, so playing Governor for draw still helps him quite a bit, as he isn't more likely to draw actions than non-actions, so on average his Heralds won't be less effective.

I don't know about this, man. Well, literally, I don't know, because I have played with Governor on Goko I think twice. Which is a shame, because it had basically become my favorite card by the end of Iso.

Heralds are definitely super strong and more viable than weak and even moderate players give them credit for. But, okay, Governor can actually snap up the Provinces pretty fast here, can't it? Well you just want bunches and bunches of Governors, but then with Hoard, I mean you can get Gold off of Nobles and then do turbo remodel into Provinces.

I'm not at all sure, though.

[sudgy]

The Governor player could deny a few Fairgrounds to remodel into Provinces later.

[Robz888]

The Governor player could deny a few Fairgrounds to remodel into Provinces later.

Yeah, agreed. I mean it's not like the Herald plan is necessarily going to have a much easier time charging Fairgrounds than Governor is, anyway.

I think either way the big trap is Hunting Party though, which is just inferior to Governor or Herald, no matter which way you go.

[soulnet]

I don't know about this, man. Well, literally, I don't know, because I have played with Governor on Goko I think twice. Which is a shame, because it had basically become my favorite card by the end of Iso.

Heralds are definitely super strong and more viable than weak and even moderate players give them credit for. But, okay, Governor can actually snap up the Provinces pretty fast here, can't it? Well you just want bunches and bunches of Governors, but then with Hoard, I mean you can get Gold off of Nobles and then do turbo remodel into Provinces.

I'm not at all sure, though.

I was hoping you would pop-up. Do you know or have a good feeling about how fast Governor can get all 8 Provinces? Assuming no Attacks and using no support cards?

[Robz888]

I don't know about this, man. Well, literally, I don't know, because I have played with Governor on Goko I think twice. Which is a shame, because it had basically become my favorite card by the end of Iso.

Heralds are definitely super strong and more viable than weak and even moderate players give them credit for. But, okay, Governor can actually snap up the Provinces pretty fast here, can't it? Well you just want bunches and bunches of Governors, but then with Hoard, I mean you can get Gold off of Nobles and then do turbo remodel into Provinces.

I'm not at all sure, though.

I was hoping you would pop-up. Do you know or have a good feeling about how fast Governor can get all 8 Provinces? Assuming no Attacks and using no support cards?

I mean, without support cards, and without Copper trashing, and if the pile is contested, it's going to be kind of slow (although still pretty fast). But since your opponent isn't going for too many Governors here (1, maybe 2), and you have like this Hoard/Nobles/Fairgrounds into Province synergy, I have a feeling this could work. Especially because the other plan just isn't amazing... I mean, what's your source of money for the Heralds thing? Woodcutter? That's just not that great. (And I don't believe in Pirate Ship, ever, although I guess there's a weird argument for it in exactly this situation.) Don't get me wrong, Heralds like stand on their own basically way more than people would think, and Fairgrounds are of course great. But Governor is fast, and it does have good support in the Gold-into-Province department.

[Robz888]

Probably the tricky thing is going to be knowing whether you should take Nobles (better for your deck, though not like amazing since you have to chain them to get any useful draw, and you're going to have a deck with excess Treasure), or Fairgrounds (not great for your deck but good as denial). Or when/how to mix.

[Robz888]

I would be willing to test this out, by the way, once Goko comes back.

[soulnet]

I would be willing to test this out, by the way, once Goko comes back.

Me too, but I do not have any cards (and am probably a weak or medium at best opponent).