Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Most points with no VP chips.  (Read 7081 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jorbles

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1468
  • Respect: +532
    • View Profile
Most points with no VP chips.
« on: November 25, 2011, 07:29:03 pm »
0

This puzzle got me thinking. What's the most points you can get in a game without VP chip cards? So no Bishop, Monument, Goons scenarios, but all other Kingdom cards are allowed, including Colonies/Plats, Potions, Black Market (you can stack the Black Market deck also), Young Witch (and Bane), etc. You are playing solitaire and normal endgame conditions apply.
Logged

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1758
    • View Profile
Re: Most points with no VP chips.
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2011, 09:04:43 pm »
0

I am pretty sure this one has been done before.  I'll try to go find it.

Edit:
It is here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=414.0

I am not sure the final answer was finished.  There were errors found in the most complete answers a couple of times.  The end of the thread expanded to use Goons only (with no Ambassador) since there are a finite number of points that can be gained in that situation too.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 09:09:52 pm by Deadlock39 »
Logged

JanErik

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Re: Most points with no VP chips.
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2011, 01:44:59 am »
0

I found the following Solution:

Kingdom Cards:
Gardens
Vineyards
Silk Road
Fairgrounds
Duke
Nobles
Island
Great Halls
City
Young Witch
Black Market (Bane Card)


Your Black Market deck will consist of:
Tunnel, Harem, Tournament, Kings Court, Throne Room, Bridge, Highway
and 18 other action cards

You will be able to buy all cards in the end, emptying all stacks in the last turn, your deck will then have the following cards:

11 Estate (11VP)
8 Duchy (24 VP)
8 Province (48 VP)
8 Colony (80VP)
4 Curse (-4VP)
8 Gardens (320 Cards = 256 VP)
8 Vineyards (81 Actions = 216 VP)
8 Silk Road (101 VP Cards = 200VP)
8 Fairgrounds (51 different Cards = 160 VP)
8 Duke (64 VP)
1 Tunnel (Black Market) (2VP)
1 Harem (Black Market)  (2VP)
8 Nobles (16 VP)
8 Great Halls (8VP)
8 Island (16VP)
10 City
10 Young Witch
10 Black Market
23 Actions from Black Market Deck (1 Bridge, 1 Kings Court etc...)
4 Tournament Prize Actions (1 Trusty Steed, 1 Followers, 1 Pricess, 1 Bag of Gold)
1 Diadem (Tournament Prize)
60 Copper
40 Silver
30 Gold
16 Potion
12 Platinum

That is a total of 1099 VP

Let's see if anyone can beat that ;)

I can also write a little something about my approach if some people are interested.
Also, I am interested in a solution involving Goons, if I have an hour to spare, I will probably work on that as well.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 01:54:26 am by JanErik »
Logged

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: Most points with no VP chips.
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2011, 01:48:07 am »
0

8 Colonies is 80 VP, not 88 VP  ;)
Logged

JanErik

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Re: Most points with no VP chips.
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2011, 01:50:00 am »
0

oops, fixed ;)
Logged

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1758
    • View Profile
Re: Most points with no VP chips.
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 10:58:44 am »
0

FYI: The Isotropic implementation of Black Market is not an official rule.  In the previous thread we used the literal interpretation of the card in which every card not in the game is in the BM deck (except those forbidden by the puzzle rules).    That puzzle was done before Silk Road existed, and the highest value I came up with was 1510.  The addition of Hinterlands would add more cards to the BM deck in that solution, and add Silk Road to bump it further.

Axxle

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1664
  • Most Valuable Serial Killer
  • Respect: +1966
    • View Profile
Re: Most points with no VP chips.
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2011, 04:23:39 am »
0

I found the following Solution:

Kingdom Cards:
Gardens
Vineyards
Silk Road
Fairgrounds
Duke
Nobles
Island
Great Halls
City
Young Witch
Black Market (Bane Card)


Your Black Market deck will consist of:
Tunnel, Harem, Tournament, Kings Court, Throne Room, Bridge, Highway
and 18 other action cards

You will be able to buy all cards in the end, emptying all stacks in the last turn, your deck will then have the following cards:

11 Estate (11VP)
8 Duchy (24 VP)
8 Province (48 VP)
8 Colony (80VP)
4 Curse (-4VP)
8 Gardens (320 Cards = 256 VP)
8 Vineyards (81 Actions = 216 VP)
8 Silk Road (101 VP Cards = 200VP)
8 Fairgrounds (51 different Cards = 160 VP)
8 Duke (64 VP)
1 Tunnel (Black Market) (2VP)
1 Harem (Black Market)  (2VP)
8 Nobles (16 VP)
8 Great Halls (8VP)
8 Island (16VP)
10 City
10 Young Witch
10 Black Market
23 Actions from Black Market Deck (1 Bridge, 1 Kings Court etc...)
4 Tournament Prize Actions (1 Trusty Steed, 1 Followers, 1 Pricess, 1 Bag of Gold)
1 Diadem (Tournament Prize)
60 Copper
40 Silver
30 Gold
16 Potion
12 Platinum

That is a total of 1099 VP

Let's see if anyone can beat that ;)

I can also write a little something about my approach if some people are interested.
Also, I am interested in a solution involving Goons, if I have an hour to spare, I will probably work on that as well.

Why Great Hall as a kingdom card and not Harem or Tunnel.  Surely that would bump up the score.

edit: I forgot that you actually have to buy everything by the end. Don't want to calculate it to see if it's possible right now.
Logged
We might be from all over the world, but "we all talk this one language  : +1 card + 1 action +1 buy , gain , discard, trash... " - RTT

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1490
    • View Profile
Re: Most points with no VP chips.
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2011, 04:35:42 am »
0

Why Great Hall as a kingdom card and not Harem or Tunnel.  Surely that would bump up the score.


I would guess that's because each GH also gives 8 VPs from the Vineyards


@edit:
I don't want to calculate, but I would guess, if you put enough draw and +buy in the Black Market, that should be no problem. KC-Bridge+Highway+Princess reduces everything by 6, so the only cards that costs something are Colonies and Pronvinces. To finish them you need $7, where you already have $3 from the Bridge. There are 10 Cities which also gives 10, so that's more than enough.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 04:40:15 am by DStu »
Logged

NoMoreFun

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2019
  • Respect: +2151
    • View Profile
Re: Most points with no VP chips.
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2012, 05:16:12 am »
0

I agree with JanErik's choice of cards, but in games with more than one player you can use the ambassador and/or masquerade in the black market to get everyone else's starting coppers and estates (as well as silvers and potentially curses when you buy the Ill gotten gains and Embassy in the black market deck). I'd also interpret the black market deck as having every single card not in the supply, including Goons, Bishop and Monument (just never play them).

It wouldn't be too hard to redo the calculations (just have as many cards as possible and solve for the ideal number of curses - in games with 3 or more players it will be as many as possible without going over the nearest multiple of 10 total cards)

Also, the buying is even easier if you TR a KC and use it to play Bridge and Highway thrice, and also play princess. The bridges will themselves give you enough money to buy the last platinum and colony, and everything else will be free.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 05:23:49 am by NoMoreFun »
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9191
    • View Profile
Re: Most points with no VP chips.
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2012, 02:10:44 am »
0

Also, the buying is even easier if you TR a KC and use it to play Bridge and Highway thrice, and also play princess. The bridges will themselves give you enough money to buy the last platinum and colony, and everything else will be free.

Highway doesn't interact with TR/KC that way.  Bridge reduces costs from being played so it will stack with TR/KC, but Highway and Princess reduce cost from being in play, so playing Highway thrice via KC will still only reduce costs by $1.  :)
Logged

jimjam

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 172
  • Respect: +57
    • View Profile
Re: Most points with no VP chips.
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2012, 04:16:40 am »
0

Isotropic vs official is rather arbitrary, since officially there are supposed to be infinite base treasures.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4389
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Most points with no VP chips.
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2012, 09:24:02 am »
0

Isotropic vs official is rather arbitrary, since officially there are supposed to be infinite base treasures.
No, officially there are supposed to be whatever finite number you agree on before the game starts.

O

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 836
  • Respect: +605
    • View Profile
Re: Most points with no VP chips.
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2012, 11:08:09 am »
0

Silk Road gives 1VP for 4 Victory cards, so with 8 SR each VC is worth 8/4 + other points, ergo 2 + VP. Vineyards gives 1VP for 3 action cards, so with 8 Vineyards each action is worth 8/3 points. I'm not sure why you guys are using any non-VP in your base deck except Black Market and Young Witch. The last turn will be on TR-KC-Bridge-Activated City-Grand Market-Highway-Princess-Haggler-Any other +buys from black market that can fit a KC'd bridge + highway + princess reduces costs by 6, so you get 3 cards from Haggler (Province, Colony, Platinum buy) to take out some treasures/black market/young witch. Before that, BM+X can buy out all cards except one from each pile, with two piles being bought out. Farmland (for its trashing) and great hall (for its 1VP) will be in the black market deck.

Harem
Fairgrounds
Vineyard
Island
Black Market
Young Witch
Nobles
Silk Road
Gardens
Duke
Tunnel-bane



I'm too lazy to calculate that, but I believe its close to optimal.

Edit: Oops, great hall and Harem should be switched (GH benefits from Vineyards)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 11:11:43 am by O »
Logged

jimjam

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 172
  • Respect: +57
    • View Profile
Re: Most points with no VP chips.
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2012, 02:44:13 pm »
0

Isotropic vs official is rather arbitrary, since officially there are supposed to be infinite base treasures.
No, officially there are supposed to be whatever finite number you agree on before the game starts.

So essentially an unbounded number, which would make the puzzle rather uninteresting.
Logged

Tables

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2817
  • Build more Bridges in the King's Court!
  • Respect: +3350
    • View Profile
Re: Most points with no VP chips.
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2012, 05:51:37 pm »
+1

Why do people keep saying there are officially supposed to be infinite basic treasures, when that's very much not the case now, and never was? Donald X has said, on one occasion, that ideally the basic treasure supplies would be infinite but real world constraints mean they aren't. In fact, I can't even find a link to him saying that in the DonaldX section of the forum.
But That's VERY different to saying the basic supplies are supposed to be unlimited. There are supposed to be 40 Silvers, 30 Gold and 32-46 Coppers in the supply - an amount which is essentially unlimited in 98% of games, but occasionally they run out - and the rules make it very clear an empty basic treasure pile is still an empty pile.

Compare, if you want, to Thunderstone, where the Plague (~Curse) cards ARE unlimited, any trashed Plagues are returned to the supply and if they run out, you put a suitable replacement card in it's place.
Logged
...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4389
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Most points with no VP chips.
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2012, 06:34:58 pm »
0

Why do people keep saying there are officially supposed to be infinite basic treasures, when that's very much not the case now, and never was? Donald X has said, on one occasion, that ideally the basic treasure supplies would be infinite but real world constraints mean they aren't. In fact, I can't even find a link to him saying that in the DonaldX section of the forum.
But That's VERY different to saying the basic supplies are supposed to be unlimited. There are supposed to be 40 Silvers, 30 Gold and 32-46 Coppers in the supply - an amount which is essentially unlimited in 98% of games, but occasionally they run out - and the rules make it very clear an empty basic treasure pile is still an empty pile.
Why do people keep saying this wrong thing too? You can have AS MANY BASIC TREASURES AS YOU WANT. Now, these are the recommended numbers because that's how many come with the game. But you lose a few golds, you can play with 27, no big deal. You're playing with 6 people, you probably wanna combine your base and intrigue basics for double the numbers. You really don't want those piles to run out, play with 500 of each. It doesn't matter, so long as everyone agrees to it before the game begins.

Tables

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2817
  • Build more Bridges in the King's Court!
  • Respect: +3350
    • View Profile
Re: Most points with no VP chips.
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2012, 07:45:57 pm »
+1

Hm, having looked at the intrigue rules (which I'd never read before, not owning the set and never needing to refer to it during play) it does indeed mention that you can combine both Base and Intrigue treasures, which means if players agreed to it, you could have up to 104 Coppers, 80 Silvers and 60 Golds. But that's still a finite supply. Obviously, if you've lost a few cards you can play with slightly smaller supplies, and if you actually wanted you could take two or more base games and combine them with an intrigue... but that's a house rule. The official rules (unless there's something other than Intrigue) is: "The Treasure cards from Dominion and Dominion: Intrigue can be combined, since these cards are intended to be in abundant enough supply to not run out. (If a type of Treasure card does run out, that becomes an empty pile in the Supply, which can be important for game ending conditions.)"

So formally, two options. One set of cards, or two. Not as many as you want.
Logged
...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

jotheonah

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 989
  • Respect: +952
    • View Profile
Re: Most points with no VP chips.
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2012, 08:27:00 pm »
0

The real nail in the coffin of this debate will be how the treasure supply is implemented in the official online release, where infinite treasure would be feasible.
Logged
"I know old meta, and joth is useless day 1 but awesome town day 3 and on." --Teproc

He/him
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.055 seconds with 21 queries.