Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[jotheonah]

How can you trash a Colony for a net gain of 14 VP?

Hard mode: Net gain of 24 VP

[eHalcyon]

I can hit 35 VP, but I may be interpreting "net gain" rather loosely:

Play a bunch of KC-Bridge so that Colonies cost 0.  Swindle opponent's Colony into a Curse.  This also drops them from having X victory cards to X-1, where X is a multiple of 4.  Also, that Colony was the only Colony they had, and they already had some Curses in their deck.  Losing the colony drops them from Y differently named cards to Y-1, where Y is a multiple of 5.

From losing the Colony: -10 VP
From gaining the Curse: -1 VP
From 8 devalued Silk Roads: -8 VP
From 8 devalued Fairgrounds: -16 VP

Total: -35 VP to the opponent.

so by trashing your opponent's Colony, you cause them to lose 35 VP which gives you a net gain of 35 VP.  This could be more in a 3p+ game, since that player could have more than 8 SR/Fairgrounds.

But if you have to trash your own Colony, I'll need to think about it some more...

[ftl]

One answer, albeit not fleshed out:

Remodel a colony into either a gardens or a fairgrounds? If you've got every possible card in your deck and a huge black market deck, one or the other of those might be worth 14 or 24 more than a colony.

...OK, estimating the numbers, I *think* that if you've bought every card (including all basic treasures, victory cards, potions, bane, BM deck) then you can make a gardens worth 24 vp more than a colony? Correct me if I'm wrong on that...

Though in that case, it's not really the trashing that gets you the points, and I like eHalcyon's answer a lot more.

[Ozle]

Trash the colony with an apprentice that then gives you 11 cards
Worker village, worker village, bridge, bridge, Bridge, Bridge, 5 platinums
6 buys
29 coins
Colonys cost 7
Buy 4 + Dutchy
Net gain 33VP?

[Jorbles]

I see a way to hit 143 net VP assuming I am interpreting the constraints properly. This solution could probably also be tweaked to get even higher results.


Trash your Colony with an Apprentice to draw 4 King's Courts, 6 Goons and a Festival (the math doesn't work out with the KCs to draw another Goons and actually play it you could probably replace this with something better like a Grand Market, but I didn't feel calculating that).
Play Festival-KC-KC-KC-KC-Goons-Goons-Goons-Goons-Goons-Goons giving you $38, 20 buys and a net of -10 VP. Buy 3 Colonies, a Duchy and 16 Coppers for a net gain of 143 VP.

[jonts26]

If were talking about just the act of trashing your own colony (no other cards played) I can get 24:

Assuming you have 8 Gardens, 8 Fairgrounds, At least one other colony and no silver and 9 or 14 unique cards.
Trash Colony with Trader. Net Increase of 1 unique card and 10 total cards.

8 Gardens = +8
8 Fairgrounds = +16

Total = +24.

[eHalcyon]

I think I got it.

Trash Colony with a TFB card like Remodel to gain a Border Village, which you use to gain the last Silk Road.  The Border Village puts you up to a multiple of 3 action cards, powering up your Vineyards.  Colony into Border Village + Silk Road means your deck has 1 more card overall, and it just so happens that this bumps you up to a new multiple of 10, powering up your Gardens.  Also, that Border Village was the first one you got, bumping you up to a new multiple of 5 differently named cards.

Suppose you previously had 8 Fairgrounds, 8 Vineyards, 7 Gardens and 7 Silk Roads.  (It works just as well if you reverse the number of Vineyards vs. Gardens, but you definitely need 8 Fairgrounds.)

-10 VP from losing a Colony
+8 VP from powering up Vineyards
+7 VP from powering up Gardens
+16 VP from powering up Fairgrounds


= +21 VP net gain.

But you also get more VP from gaining the Silk Road.

Silk Road's worth stays the same because you lost a Colony and gained a Silk Road, so the total number of VP cards remains unchanged.  The exact worth of the final Silk Road is variable though.

With this last move, you already have 8 Fairgrounds, 8 Vineyards, 7 Gardens and 8 Silk Roads and at least 1 Colony (to keep Fairgrounds powered up) = 32 or more VP cards. 

That means the newly gained SR is worth at least 8 VP for a minimum of +29 VP net gain. It could be worth much more though, especially if there are even more alternative VP cards in the Kingdom, or if we have more than 2 players so we can get more of each VP card.  I don't want to work out the maximum though!

[eHalcyon]

I see a way to hit 143 net VP assuming I am interpreting the constraints properly. This solution could probably also be tweaked to get even higher results.


Trash your Colony with an Apprentice to draw 4 King's Courts, 6 Goons and a Festival (the math doesn't work out with the KCs to draw another Goons and actually play it you could probably replace this with something better like a Grand Market, but I didn't feel calculating that).
Play Festival-KC-KC-KC-KC-Goons-Goons-Goons-Goons-Goons-Goons giving you $38, 20 buys and a net of -10 VP. Buy 3 Colonies, a Duchy and 16 Coppers for a net gain of 143 VP.

I think the puzzle is meant to ask how you can gain those VP only from the act of trashing, before the Buy phase.

If were talking about just the act of trashing your own colony (no other cards played) I can get 24:

Assuming you have 8 Gardens, 8 Fairgrounds, At least one other colony and no silver and 9 or 14 unique cards.
Trash Colony with Trader. Net Increase of 1 unique card and 10 total cards.

8 Gardens = +8
8 Fairgrounds = +16

Total = +24.

But you also lose the Colony, so your net total is 24-10 = 12.

[jotheonah]

Ok, perhaps I wasn't clear. The act of trashing the colony itself gains you the points, not the subsequent actions trashing it allows you to play. (Apprenticed-based solutions need not apply).  So far jonts is closest to what I had in mind. In fact, I think jonts' might be better than mine in some ways.

For the record I did NOT stipulate that it has to be your own Colony, but I don't think making your opponent lose VP is the same as gaining them.  In a two-player game, I can see the case for that, but the puzzle solution does not take that liberty. I also did NOT stipulate a two-player game or any of the other regular puzzle limitations, for the record.

eHalycon's (second) solution is NOT mine but I like it!

[jonts26]

If were talking about just the act of trashing your own colony (no other cards played) I can get 24:

Assuming you have 8 Gardens, 8 Fairgrounds, At least one other colony and no silver and 9 or 14 unique cards.
Trash Colony with Trader. Net Increase of 1 unique card and 10 total cards.

8 Gardens = +8
8 Fairgrounds = +16

Total = +24.

But you also lose the Colony, so your net total is 24-10 = 12.

Oh right. Well first off 24-10 happens to be 14, not 12. And if we expand it to a 3P game we can add 4 gardens points and 8 Fairgrounds points. Bringing the total up to 26 net points.

[Jorbles]

But you also lose the Colony, so your net total is 24-10 = 12.

Edit:I think you mean 14. Nevermind jonts pointed it out faster.

[Jimmmmm]

I can hit 35 VP, but I may be interpreting "net gain" rather loosely:

Play a bunch of KC-Bridge so that Colonies cost 0.  Swindle opponent's Colony into a Curse.  This also drops them from having X victory cards to X-1, where X is a multiple of 4.  Also, that Colony was the only Colony they had, and they already had some Curses in their deck.  Losing the colony drops them from Y differently named cards to Y-1, where Y is a multiple of 5.

From losing the Colony: -10 VP
From gaining the Curse: -1 VP
From 8 devalued Silk Roads: -8 VP
From 8 devalued Fairgrounds: -16 VP

Total: -35 VP to the opponent.

so by trashing your opponent's Colony, you cause them to lose 35 VP which gives you a net gain of 35 VP.  This could be more in a 3p+ game, since that player could have more than 8 SR/Fairgrounds.

But if you have to trash your own Colony, I'll need to think about it some more...

If there are no Colonies left (say you Bridged them down to $4 and Workshopped the last one), you can devalue 8 Gardens as well by Swindling the Colony into nothing, bringing the total net gain to 10 + 8 + 8 + 16 = 42.

[jotheonah]

ha! yeah, I'm realizing my easy mode solution I had in mind doesn't actually work.  I was just thinking 12 Gardens, gain 11 silvers to power up your Gardens two levels. But of course, trashing the Colony means only a net gain of 10 cards which means that you only get a net gain of 2 points. Of course if you buy a copper during your buy phase that's negated, but that does break my own rule.

Weirdly, the hard mode solution I had in mind still works, and no one's thought of it yet.

[eHalcyon]

ftl's solution of using a single super-powered Gardens or Fairgrounds courtesy of Black Market is potentially better than using a super-powered Silk Road at the end of my solution, but I'm not sure.  Since I gain the Silk Road with Border Village, it would have to be either that or Gardens; Fairgrounds wouldn't work.  I'd really like to see someone crunch the numbers for a VP-filled Kingdom with SR vs. a BM-fueled Gardens.  I think mine would come out ahead...

Also, curious about the numbers for a game with more than 2 players.

[eHalcyon]

Oh right. Well first off 24-10 happens to be 14, not 12. And if we expand it to a 3P game we can add 4 gardens points and 8 Fairgrounds points. Bringing the total up to 26 net points.

Whoa math fail.  I think it's time for me to go work on something else... 

[greatexpectations]

what about remodeling a colony to kill off the last border village?  gain a duchy with the border village.  assuming that you came into the turn with another colony, no border villages, 8 dukes, 7 gardens at x9 cards, 7 vineyards at 3y-1, and  8 fairgrounds at 5z-1, you would gain:
+3 pts from duchy
+8 pts from dukes
+7 pts from gardens
+16 pts from fairgrounds
+7 pts from vineyards
-10 pts from trashing colony
= +34 pts

a 3p game could bump that to +54 i believe.

[eHalcyon]

I decided to just bite the bullet and figure it out myself... Modifying my second solution for a bigger game:

Trash Colony with a TFB card like Remodel to gain a Border Village, which you use to gain the last Silk Road.  The Border Village puts you up to a multiple of 3 action cards, powering up your Vineyards.  Colony into Border Village + Silk Road means your deck has 1 more card overall, and it just so happens that this bumps you up to a new multiple of 10, powering up your Gardens.  Also, that Border Village was the first one you got, bumping you up to a new multiple of 5 differently named cards.

Suppose you previously had 12 Fairgrounds, 12 Vineyards, 12 Gardens and 11 Silk Roads.  Note that this is possible because you need to 4-pile in a game with 6 players.

-10 VP from losing a Colony
+24 VP from powering up Fairgrounds
+12 VP from powering up Vineyards
+12 VP from powering up Gardens

= +38 VP net gain.

But you also get more VP from gaining the Silk Road.

Silk Road's worth stays the same because you lost a Colony and gained a Silk Road, so the total number of VP cards remains unchanged.  The exact worth of the final Silk Road is variable though.  The maximum I can determine:

Kingdom includes Vineyard, Fairgrounds, Gardens, Silk Road, Border Village, Great Hall, Harem, Tunnel, Duke, Farmland.

Note that the only Action cards in this set are Border Village and Great Hall.  Without depleting the pile you could have 11 Great Hall; grabbing the single Border Village bumps you up to 12 Actions, a multiple of 3, to round out the Vineyards.

Having every card in the Kingdom (minus Border Village) = 9 differently named cards.  Also throw in Estate, Duchy, Province and Colony for 14.  Copper, Silver, Gold and Platinum bump that up to 19, so adding in the single Border Village would push it to 20 to round out Fairgrounds.

As far as Gardens go, we can add or subtract the treasures to make sure the gains round those out as well.

Since all the constraints from my solution are now satisfied, by the end you could have:

12 each of Fairgrounds, Vineyards, Gardens and Silk Roads
11 each of Great Hall, Harem, Tunnel, Duke, Farmland, Estate, Duchy, Province
10 Colonies (1 was trashed, and 1 remains unpurchased to prevent ending on piles)

= 12*4 + 11*8 + 10 = 146 VP cards

Meaning that the SR gained at the end is worth 36 VP. 

The total net gain is thus +74 VP.

[jotheonah]

As awesome as that is, there's no reason to target a Colony when you could remodel anything costing 4 or less and accomplish the same.  The solution I had in mind has to be a Colony.

[greatexpectations]

As awesome as that is, there's no reason to target a Colony when you could remodel anything costing 4 or less and accomplish the same.  The solution I had in mind has to be a Colony.

if that is the case, then the value of the card is key, so trader is likely involved.  in which case the best bet might be one of the above trader solutions, except you do it while possessing your opponent. that way you still get the silver gains without the colony point loss.

[eHalcyon]

As awesome as that is, there's no reason to target a Colony when you could remodel anything costing 4 or less and accomplish the same.  The solution I had in mind has to be a Colony.

You mean 4 or more, right?    Well... maybe there's nothing else in hand that you'd want to trash -- maybe they're all super-charged alt victory cards that end up being worth more than a Colony each.

As awesome as that is, there's no reason to target a Colony when you could remodel anything costing 4 or less and accomplish the same.  The solution I had in mind has to be a Colony.

if that is the case, then the value of the card is key, so trader is likely involved.  in which case the best bet might be one of the above trader solutions, except you do it while possessing your opponent. that way you still get the silver gains without the colony point loss.

Done with Possession, you would gain 11 silver.  This could bump up Gardens twice.  If you had no Silver before, it could also bump up Fairgrounds.  That would put you well above the 24 VP net gain in the OP if you're maxed out on Gardens and Fairgrounds.

I don't really see another way where you would *need* to use Colony.  I thought maybe some shenanigans with Farmland, but its effect only triggers on buy, not on gain.  I also considered something with Develop after a KC-Bridge combo, but then it doesn't need to be a Colony anymore.

[theorel]

I decided to just bite the bullet and figure it out myself... Modifying my second solution for a bigger game:

Trash Colony with a TFB card like Remodel to gain a Border Village, which you use to gain the last Silk Road.  The Border Village puts you up to a multiple of 3 action cards, powering up your Vineyards.  Colony into Border Village + Silk Road means your deck has 1 more card overall, and it just so happens that this bumps you up to a new multiple of 10, powering up your Gardens.  Also, that Border Village was the first one you got, bumping you up to a new multiple of 5 differently named cards.

Suppose you previously had 12 Fairgrounds, 12 Vineyards, 12 Gardens and 11 Silk Roads.  Note that this is possible because you need to 4-pile in a game with 6 players.

-10 VP from losing a Colony
+24 VP from powering up Fairgrounds
+12 VP from powering up Vineyards
+12 VP from powering up Gardens

= +38 VP net gain.

But you also get more VP from gaining the Silk Road.

Silk Road's worth stays the same because you lost a Colony and gained a Silk Road, so the total number of VP cards remains unchanged.  The exact worth of the final Silk Road is variable though.  The maximum I can determine:

Kingdom includes Vineyard, Fairgrounds, Gardens, Silk Road, Border Village, Great Hall, Harem, Tunnel, Duke, Farmland.

Note that the only Action cards in this set are Border Village and Great Hall.  Without depleting the pile you could have 11 Great Hall; grabbing the single Border Village bumps you up to 12 Actions, a multiple of 3, to round out the Vineyards.

Having every card in the Kingdom (minus Border Village) = 9 differently named cards.  Also throw in Estate, Duchy, Province and Colony for 14.  Copper, Silver, Gold and Platinum bump that up to 19, so adding in the single Border Village would push it to 20 to round out Fairgrounds.

As far as Gardens go, we can add or subtract the treasures to make sure the gains round those out as well.

Since all the constraints from my solution are now satisfied, by the end you could have:

12 each of Fairgrounds, Vineyards, Gardens and Silk Roads
11 each of Great Hall, Harem, Tunnel, Duke, Farmland, Estate, Duchy, Province
10 Colonies (1 was trashed, and 1 remains unpurchased to prevent ending on piles)

= 12*4 + 11*8 + 10 = 146 VP cards

Meaning that the SR gained at the end is worth 36 VP. 

The total net gain is thus +74 VP.

Just a couple mistakes there:
The TFB card must be Farmlands, otherwise you have to include Remodel, or whatever.  Also, 9+4 = 13, +4=17 total card types (not 19)  Including curse gets to 18 total.  You could throw in Young Witch to have 19...but really you only care about the break-point of going from 14 unique types to 15 unique types anyways.  So you'll need to leave out 3 of the treasure types, to be going to another multiple of 5.  I didn't check the rest of the map, just the obvious arithmetic errors for me

[jotheonah]

As awesome as that is, there's no reason to target a Colony when you could remodel anything costing 4 or less and accomplish the same.  The solution I had in mind has to be a Colony.

if that is the case, then the value of the card is key, so trader is likely involved.  in which case the best bet might be one of the above trader solutions, except you do it while possessing your opponent. that way you still get the silver gains without the colony point loss.

Bingo! However, as these puzzle threads often do, the cleverness of most of these answers goes pretty far beyond my humble original solution.

[eHalcyon]

I decided to just bite the bullet and figure it out myself... Modifying my second solution for a bigger game:

Trash Colony with a TFB card like Remodel to gain a Border Village, which you use to gain the last Silk Road.  The Border Village puts you up to a multiple of 3 action cards, powering up your Vineyards.  Colony into Border Village + Silk Road means your deck has 1 more card overall, and it just so happens that this bumps you up to a new multiple of 10, powering up your Gardens.  Also, that Border Village was the first one you got, bumping you up to a new multiple of 5 differently named cards.

Suppose you previously had 12 Fairgrounds, 12 Vineyards, 12 Gardens and 11 Silk Roads.  Note that this is possible because you need to 4-pile in a game with 6 players.

-10 VP from losing a Colony
+24 VP from powering up Fairgrounds
+12 VP from powering up Vineyards
+12 VP from powering up Gardens

= +38 VP net gain.

But you also get more VP from gaining the Silk Road.

Silk Road's worth stays the same because you lost a Colony and gained a Silk Road, so the total number of VP cards remains unchanged.  The exact worth of the final Silk Road is variable though.  The maximum I can determine:

Kingdom includes Vineyard, Fairgrounds, Gardens, Silk Road, Border Village, Great Hall, Harem, Tunnel, Duke, Farmland.

Note that the only Action cards in this set are Border Village and Great Hall.  Without depleting the pile you could have 11 Great Hall; grabbing the single Border Village bumps you up to 12 Actions, a multiple of 3, to round out the Vineyards.

Having every card in the Kingdom (minus Border Village) = 9 differently named cards.  Also throw in Estate, Duchy, Province and Colony for 14.  Copper, Silver, Gold and Platinum bump that up to 19, so adding in the single Border Village would push it to 20 to round out Fairgrounds.

As far as Gardens go, we can add or subtract the treasures to make sure the gains round those out as well.

Since all the constraints from my solution are now satisfied, by the end you could have:

12 each of Fairgrounds, Vineyards, Gardens and Silk Roads
11 each of Great Hall, Harem, Tunnel, Duke, Farmland, Estate, Duchy, Province
10 Colonies (1 was trashed, and 1 remains unpurchased to prevent ending on piles)

= 12*4 + 11*8 + 10 = 146 VP cards

Meaning that the SR gained at the end is worth 36 VP. 

The total net gain is thus +74 VP.

Just a couple mistakes there:
The TFB card must be Farmlands, otherwise you have to include Remodel, or whatever.  Also, 9+4 = 13, +4=17 total card types (not 19)  Including curse gets to 18 total.  You could throw in Young Witch to have 19...but really you only care about the break-point of going from 14 unique types to 15 unique types anyways.  So you'll need to leave out 3 of the treasure types, to be going to another multiple of 5.  I didn't check the rest of the map, just the obvious arithmetic errors for me

Whoooops.  Too sleepy at that time.  Oh well...