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Author Topic: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest  (Read 17864 times)

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tuned2g

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Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« on: February 20, 2014, 11:32:31 am »
+2

Hey guys!

I am new to the forum but have enjoyed playing Dominion for the last year and a half. I am familiar with most of the expansions, and I believe the game to be very balanced. However, I recently read Donald X's "Time Machine" post, and it got me thinking about several of the cards I enjoy playing with but could also use some "buffing up." I know many of these cards have already been discussed, but I have not seen any modifications like these or any that I have found especially compelling. My goal with these modifications was not to make the card a powerful "must-buy" but to simply broaden its appeal. The costs and the basic function of the cards remain the same. With that being said, I have also yet to playtest any of these, but am hoping to implement them in "house rules" soon in games with my playing group. The texts are as I imagine they would appear on the cards. Some of these are wordy, so I would love to get feedback from anyone. On to the cards:


Scout: cost 4
+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand. If there are no revealed Victory cards, the player to your left chooses one of the revealed cards. Put that card in your hand. Either way, put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.

What I like about this is the new dynamic of player interaction and always getting at least one card from Scout. Often this card will simply be a Copper or a Curse, but that is still a useless card that won't be in your hand next turn. I can see how this can suddenly become a powerful card in a streamlined Chapel deck, but I like how as soon as it hits green it returns to its original function and does nothing further for you. It's a little swingy, but I do not think it is unbalanced. Its appeal is certainly broadened past simply its interactions with Harem, Nobles, and Great Hall. This is my favorite modification so far, so I am very curious to hear what you all think.


Adventurer: cost 6
+2 Buys
(everything else remains the same)

I believe Adventurer is a super-powerful card in the narrow niche where it excels. That just doesn't happen on many boards. I believe this broadens that niche some, particularly in games with few Buys; while making it more appealing and often times a better mid-game purchase than Gold. Also, I just love this card and want to be able to buy more things with it.


Lookout: cost 3
+1 Action
Look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them, discard one, and put the other on top of your deck.
When you buy this, reveal the top card of your deck. Trash it or put it back on top of your deck.

This is just a fun little bonus that I thought might increase Lookout's chances of getting bought. Also, I don't own Hinterlands and thought some "when gain/buy" mechanics might be fun to play with. I do realize it is similar to the over-pay mechanic on Doctor, but I don't care. This card never gets bought in my playing group.


Harvest: cost 5
Reveal the top card of your deck. Discard it. Reveal the next card on top of your deck. Either discard it or put it back. Do this up to 3 times. +1 coin per differently named card discarded.

This is the last and trickiest modification I have made. The wording is very fickle. What I am trying to accomplish is that you do not have to discard your good cards from the top of your deck if you don't want to. You do discard the first one, so you are at least getting +1 coin from Harvest. You then reveal the next card. At that point you can discard it or put it back. If you put it back, you are done (although the wording does give you the option to look at it two more times and potentially change your mind.) If you discard it, you can go to the next one. Discard that, and reveal the next one. The most coin you can generate from Harvest is still 4, but now you have some flexibility. Have 7 coin in your hand? Simply discard the top one, and you get to keep that Gold on top of your deck for the next hand. This makes Harvest a little bit more like Vault, but with a Spy-like effect on your own deck.


So that's it. Maybe I'll let you guys know how the playtesting goes. Thanks for reading!
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LastFootnote

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2014, 12:01:20 pm »
+3

I don't think Lookout needs the buff. I buy it frequently as-is and win. I like your Adventurer buff, although I would probably try it at +1 Buy first.

Here are my buffs for the same cards.

Scout
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +$1. Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.

Adventurer
Types: Action
Cost: $6
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Treasure cards. Put those Treasures into your hand. Put a revealed Action on top of your deck. Discard the rest.

Harvest
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put one back and discard the rest. +$1 per differently named card revealed.
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Tables

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2014, 12:05:45 pm »
+2

Lookout is definitely okay as is. It's a fairly average $3 card.
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silverspawn

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2014, 01:36:38 pm »
0

Mh, I think this works a lot easier

Scout - Action - 4$
+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.
(notice that Scout is the only non-terminal in dominion that wouldn't be broken if you add +1 Card)

Adventurer - Action - 6$
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 3 Treasure cards. Put those Treasures into your hand.

as for harvest

Quote
Harvest
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put one back and discard the rest. +$1 per differently named card revealed.
this is good.

Lookout doesn't need the buff. There are some cards which you didn't mention though, which I would like to fix

most importantly:
Masquerade - Action - 3$
+2 Cards.
You may trash a Card from your hand.

also:
Transmute - Action - P$
+1 Action
{rest as normal}

and i would change swindler so that he can only trash cards from the supply.

GeoLib

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2014, 01:53:32 pm »
+5

Didn't you know that lookout is the strongest $3 trasher??!


In all seriousness, lookout doesn't need a buff. I think LF's fix for Harvest accomplishes a similar idea to yours with simpler wording.

How would your new scout be powerful in a chapeled down deck? It's just a cantrip with a penalty...

SilverSpawn: I realize you don't like the passing mechanic of Masquerade, which is fine, but it doesn't need to be "fixed" in the way that scout does. It doesn't make the card too powerful or weak. It's not the main point most of the time, but it's a new element that's important to consider when playing it. Punishes over-trashing, combos with discard attacks, etc.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2014, 02:51:19 pm »
+4

Scout - Action - 4$
+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.
(notice that Scout is the only non-terminal in dominion that wouldn't be broken if you add +1 Card)

Part of Scout's power is the ability to pull grab Victory cards that your opponent's Attacks have left on your deck. While a Scout with +1 Card technically also pulls such a card off your deck, it is no more a counter for such Attacks than any other cantrip. This is one of many reasons that I think Scout should have +$1 rather than +1 Card.

Masquerade - Action - 3$
+2 Cards.
You may trash a Card from your hand.

This just sucks all the fun out of the card. The entire concept of Masquerade is passing cards around.
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ConMan

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2014, 04:52:22 pm »
0

Scout - Action - 4$
+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.
(notice that Scout is the only non-terminal in dominion that wouldn't be broken if you add +1 Card)

Part of Scout's power is the ability to pull grab Victory cards that your opponent's Attacks have left on your deck. While a Scout with +1 Card technically also pulls such a card off your deck, it is no more a counter for such Attacks than any other cantrip. This is one of many reasons that I think Scout should have +$1 rather than +1 Card.
What if the +1 Card were at the end, as with Oracle? Then it keeps the ability to counter those top-decking attacks, and becomes more like a weaker Scrying Pool.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2014, 06:25:26 pm »
0

Scout - Action - 4$
+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.
(notice that Scout is the only non-terminal in dominion that wouldn't be broken if you add +1 Card)

Part of Scout's power is the ability to pull grab Victory cards that your opponent's Attacks have left on your deck. While a Scout with +1 Card technically also pulls such a card off your deck, it is no more a counter for such Attacks than any other cantrip. This is one of many reasons that I think Scout should have +$1 rather than +1 Card.
What if the +1 Card were at the end, as with Oracle? Then it keeps the ability to counter those top-decking attacks, and becomes more like a weaker Scrying Pool.

I think that might actually make it too powerful.

Edit: Actually, even +1 Card at the START makes it too powerful.  Compare it to Cartographer.

Edit again: +1 Card at the start would bring it fairly close to Cartographer.  Cartographer still has the advantage because it can discard Curses, Ruins, unwanted actions, and (most importantly) stray Copper.  Scout can increase handsize, which sometimes helps.  +1 Card on Scout might still work at $4, but I think drawing the card at the end would make it too good for filtering, probably better than Cartographer on a significant number of boards.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 06:40:43 pm by eHalcyon »
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2014, 06:55:48 pm »
0

What if Scout stayed as it is now, but cost $2 and had Duchess's below-the-line text?  Then you can pick them up when you're deep into greening, which is when you might want them (but usually don't have time to buy non-green).
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tuned2g

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2014, 09:19:34 pm »
0

Quote
I think that might actually make it too powerful.

Edit: Actually, even +1 Card at the START makes it too powerful.  Compare it to Cartographer.

Edit again: +1 Card at the start would bring it fairly close to Cartographer.  Cartographer still has the advantage because it can discard Curses, Ruins, unwanted actions, and (most importantly) stray Copper.  Scout can increase handsize, which sometimes helps.  +1 Card on Scout might still work at $4, but I think drawing the card at the end would make it too good for filtering, probably better than Cartographer on a significant number of boards.

This is why I opt to have the person on your left choose the card you get to draw. Most likely you will be getting a lousy card, but that is still filtering your deck some. Also, this only occurs if Scout does not reveal any Victory cards.


Also, definitely going with LastFootnote's Harvest. So many fewer words and pretty much the same thing!
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RTT

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2014, 03:21:15 am »
0

an interesting change to scout may be to make it an overpay card...


Quote
Scout
+1Action
blablala
_______________
When you buy this you may overpay for it. Gain an Estate for each 1$ you overpaid

I know it can empty the estate Pile with one big purchase... is that a problem though?
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2014, 07:10:06 am »
0

My personal revisions:

Lookout:
Action - $3
+1 Action
Look at the top 3 cards of your deck
You may trash one
You may discard one
Put all the other cards back in any order

I want the card to be mostly safe. I don't think being forced to trash a good card has ever been fun. Combos with Wishing Well and Herald.

Scout:
Action - $4
+1 Action
+$1
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 4 Actions or Treasures. Put them back in any order, and put the other revealed cards into your hand.

So instead of being a situational card that combos with intrigue cards, it's a card that makes sure your next hand is mostly Junk Free. I think that's more in line with the purpose of the card. Being non terminal is encouraging you to use it with Actions, and the $1 is so multiples aren't a waste. I think eHalcyon had this idea originally.

I defer to LastFootnote for Harvest and Adventurer, maybe giving the latter a +Buy.

I think Adventurer was fixed, and it's called Venture. I'm not even convinced a Terminal Demonic Tutor is broken at $6 or even $5 and that's what Adventurer could be. Make it work through Chancellor mechanic and that's another bird with that stone.

Transmute was mentioned. I think "when you buy this, +1 buy" (or even +2 buys) is the way to go with that one.
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markusin

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2014, 08:56:53 am »
0

The thing with the safe Lookout is that the card doesn't need the buff, but the forced trashing makes it unliked by many players. I remember reading somewhere that Lookout and Loan are the duds of their respective sets. It's not that those cards are particularly weak, but many players (especially new ones) hate the swinginess.

I find Loan pretty annoying, but it doesn't need a buff either. I wonder why no one tries to fix that card.

Lookout I like for simultaneous trashing/sifting. I say this after having experienced the "pleasure" of revealing 3 Provinces with it. It was still probably worth it, as removing 2 VP cards from the top of my deck made it easier to buy another Province the next turn
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soulnet

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2014, 09:04:38 am »
0

Didn't you know that lookout is the strongest $3 trasher??!

I can't tell if this was sarcastic, but it is not. Forager is.

(notice that Scout is the only non-terminal in dominion that wouldn't be broken if you add +1 Card)

Ruined Village would not be broken with +1 Card. It would make Looters more swingy, but not broken. I am not sure if Madman would be broken with +1 Card, especially if it is after the other drawing effect. Bag Of Gold would be nicer with +1 Card, but I don't feel it would be borken. Cellar+1card seems really powerful, but maybe not broken. Crossroads+1card could also be reasonable (although it is arguably terminal).

Did you go through the cards to check before making such an absolute statement?
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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2014, 09:26:06 am »
0

I can't tell if this was sarcastic, but it is not. Forager is.
Pretty sure Masquerade is stronger, and possibly Doctor. Ambassador too if you count it.
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silverspawn

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2014, 09:35:28 am »
0

Didn't you know that lookout is the strongest $3 trasher??!

I can't tell if this was sarcastic, but it is not. Forager is.

(notice that Scout is the only non-terminal in dominion that wouldn't be broken if you add +1 Card)

Ruined Village would not be broken with +1 Card. It would make Looters more swingy, but not broken. I am not sure if Madman would be broken with +1 Card, especially if it is after the other drawing effect. Bag Of Gold would be nicer with +1 Card, but I don't feel it would be borken. Cellar+1card seems really powerful, but maybe not broken. Crossroads+1card could also be reasonable (although it is arguably terminal).

Did you go through the cards to check before making such an absolute statement?

just through cards that cost something. which, the way i phrased it, isn't entirerly correct. i may have missed something, but cellar is definitely broken with +1card. a cantrip that lets you cycle as many cards as you want for 2$ is ridiculous. crossroads is also broken if you make it +1 action after #2 play and make it a cantrip

Quote
This just sucks all the fun out of the card. The entire concept of Masquerade is passing cards around.
except that it isn't fun :c
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 09:37:21 am by silverspawn »
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RTT

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2014, 09:43:21 am »
0


Quote
This just sucks all the fun out of the card. The entire concept of Masquerade is passing cards around.
except that it isn't fun :c

i think thats for everyone to decide.
but it offers a lot to real life multiplayer dominion games .
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2014, 10:08:56 am »
+1

What about a Harvest where you may discard any number of the revealed cards (putting the rest back on top in any order), and you get +$1 per differently named card discarded?

I think this is a simpler version of what the OP was trying to do.

It's also fairly thematic: you can either harvest your stuff now for a small gain, or leave it until later for a (sometimes) greater gain.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2014, 12:47:43 pm »
0

My personal revisions:

Lookout:
Action - $3
+1 Action
Look at the top 3 cards of your deck
You may trash one
You may discard one
Put all the other cards back in any order

I want the card to be mostly safe. I don't think being forced to trash a good card has ever been fun. Combos with Wishing Well and Herald.

Scout:
Action - $4
+1 Action
+$1
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 4 Actions or Treasures. Put them back in any order, and put the other revealed cards into your hand.

So instead of being a situational card that combos with intrigue cards, it's a card that makes sure your next hand is mostly Junk Free. I think that's more in line with the purpose of the card. Being non terminal is encouraging you to use it with Actions, and the $1 is so multiples aren't a waste. I think eHalcyon had this idea originally.

I defer to LastFootnote for Harvest and Adventurer, maybe giving the latter a +Buy.

I think Adventurer was fixed, and it's called Venture. I'm not even convinced a Terminal Demonic Tutor is broken at $6 or even $5 and that's what Adventurer could be. Make it work through Chancellor mechanic and that's another bird with that stone.

Transmute was mentioned. I think "when you buy this, +1 buy" (or even +2 buys) is the way to go with that one.

I think Lookout is fine with forced trashing. Players just need to get a better sense of when it's safe to play, and when the risk is acceptable.

I can't remember if I made that suggestion for Scout, but now I would say to leave off the +$1. I think it's OK for multiples not to stack.
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Robz888

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2014, 12:55:04 pm »
0

The only, absolutely only Dominion card I would change is Adventurer, which should simply cost $5 instead of $6.
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GeoLib

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2014, 01:27:43 pm »
0

Didn't you know that lookout is the strongest $3 trasher??!

I can't tell if this was sarcastic, but it is not. Forager is.

It was a sarcastic reference to this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6406.msg283163#msg283163) and the ensuing argument. Also, I disagree with forager. I would probably say masquerade or ambassador (though the latter doesn't technically trash). I agree forager is better than lookout though.
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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2014, 01:36:22 pm »
0

i've always thought that transmute was the worst card in the game, even worse than scout which can be very useful in intrigue games. transmute's main benefit is being able to turn starting estates into gold, but to do this you need to open potion (and there could be no other potion cost cards in the kingdom), buy transmute on turn 3-4 if the potion doesnt miss the shuffle, and at the earliest you can trash exactly one estate with transmute on turn 5 if you draw them together. or, if you bought a regular trasher, you could have played it twice and could be well on your way to buying a gold.

another use is for getting a lot of duchies, by trashing coppers into transmutes and transmutes into duchies. talk about slow and awkward. and getting a lot of duchies is usually only good when there is alt vp or heavy cursers. a lot of kingdoms have alt vp or a curser, but even in those scenarios just building up your economy is usually better.

if i were forced to take transmute or scout in a random game, i would prefer having scout in my deck. at least i could play it and it'd give me some benefit (this biggest complaint about scout is that there is always something better to buy). if a transmute is added to my deck in a random game, there would be many occasions when i would choose not to play it.

anyways, ive always thought transmute was the worst card in the game. id love to hear what other people think as to why it is or isn't (most likely, why scout is worse).
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eHalcyon

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2014, 01:41:06 pm »
+1

I would probably take Transmute. Estate into Gold is awesome, and potential Duchies are good later. Transmute is just too slow and not worth getting a Potion for, but getting Transmute for free solves those problems.
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Robz888

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2014, 01:46:46 pm »
+1

i've always thought that transmute was the worst card in the game, even worse than scout which can be very useful in intrigue games. transmute's main benefit is being able to turn starting estates into gold, but to do this you need to open potion (and there could be no other potion cost cards in the kingdom), buy transmute on turn 3-4 if the potion doesnt miss the shuffle, and at the earliest you can trash exactly one estate with transmute on turn 5 if you draw them together. or, if you bought a regular trasher, you could have played it twice and could be well on your way to buying a gold.

another use is for getting a lot of duchies, by trashing coppers into transmutes and transmutes into duchies. talk about slow and awkward. and getting a lot of duchies is usually only good when there is alt vp or heavy cursers. a lot of kingdoms have alt vp or a curser, but even in those scenarios just building up your economy is usually better.

if i were forced to take transmute or scout in a random game, i would prefer having scout in my deck. at least i could play it and it'd give me some benefit (this biggest complaint about scout is that there is always something better to buy). if a transmute is added to my deck in a random game, there would be many occasions when i would choose not to play it.

anyways, ive always thought transmute was the worst card in the game. id love to hear what other people think as to why it is or isn't (most likely, why scout is worse).

Transmute is better than Scout. If you could randomly add either Scout or Transmute to your deck, I think you would more often want Transmute (though you would want neither even more often). Trashing is good, you know? It's very weak, very slow trashing, but Estates into Gold is decent, and Actions into Duchies isn't the worst thing late in the game. Ignoring cost, Transmute is sort of like a Trade Route or Develop--a weak, one card trasher than can nevertheless be useful in certain situations. It's not something you resort to frequently, it's weak, but it's okay.

Transmute's major problem is its prohibitive cost--the Potion--which means you basically never want to go for Transmute. Develop and Trade Route you just pick up whenever. Transmute, you have to invest in the Potion and then get it, and you're basically never--never--going to do this for just Transmute.

What stops Transmute from being the worst card ever is other Potion cost cards. It can be a consolation prize if you miss out on $3P for Familiar or Alchemist. And if you already have the Potion in your deck because you were buying like Pools or something, the cost isn't as prohibitive (especially after the Pools run out), and you might pick it up and have it do some good for you.

I mean, like Transmute is like just a few places shy of absolute last, but the cards that I would consider worse than it (Scout, Adventurer, Harvest, Pirate Ship) really help you out even less often than Transmute, I think. (They virtually never help you.)
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LastFootnote

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Re: Card Modifications: Scout, Adventurer, Lookout, Harvest
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2014, 01:50:35 pm »
+1

Transmute is pretty good in Alchemy-heavy games for a few reasons:

1. You want at least one Potion anyway for buying other Potion-cost cards. Especially if you have an extra buy (e.g. from Herbalist), picking up a Transmute has a smaller opportunity cost.
2. A fair number of Alchemy cards increase your handsize and help connect your Transmute with Estates. Alchemist, Scrying Pool, and Apothecary are all great for this. You need multiple Apothecaries and Scrying Pools for this, of course, but you usually want that anyway.
3. Perhaps the biggest reason, but also the most subtle: When pulled off, you don't have to spend any buys on Gold, or any Treasures for that matter. Alchemy makes you want a deck full of Actions, but sometimes you need a bit of Gold to make such a deck work. Converting your 3 starting Estates into Gold is usually plenty of Treasure. You never have to wrestle with whether to buy Golem or Gold with your $6P hand. Buy the Golem.

In general, the ability to turn Actions into Duchies is better than you give it credit for. You do not have to first turn Coppers into Transmutes to pull this off. Just the ability to turn the other Actions you bought normally into Duchies in the endgame can be a boon. Count is another card that's great for this sort of late-game Duchy rush.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 01:52:06 pm by LastFootnote »
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