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[minovsky]

Hi I was first introduced to Dominion two weeks ago and I am totally addicted to it now. I am still very bad and keep losing to even the serf bot (I couldn't get anyone to play with me outside weekends...) and stumbled upon the wiki as I was searching for tips...

I was just looking at the mandarin card on the wiki which says "It's often tempting to look at the strange potential openings you can create with Mandarin. However, a 5/5/2 opening is often weaker than it seems at first. This is because it's not much different than opening 5/2 and then shuffling your gained cards right away to be played a turn sooner - consider that your opponent might get a 3/4/6 opening, if we're counting the third turn."

Can someone please elaborate on why 5/5/2 is "not much different than" 5/2? It might be a really silly question but again I am completely new and I have never been a good card/board game player...

thx much in advance!!

[jsh357]

In short: The more treasure it returns to the top of the deck, the more Mandarin slows you down.

Think of it like this:
If you return your Copper to the deck and purchase a Mandarin, you increase the number of turns between buying the Mandarin/other good $5 card and playing it.  Meanwhile, if your opponent also opens 5/2 but gets a good $5 card (let's say Witch) he can potentially play it on turn 3.  This is probably bad for you, since he's reaping the benefit of playing the Witch earlier.  It slows down your momentum, pretty much. 

That said, there are some decks that will like having a Mandarin and don't mind getting started slower, but those are probably pretty rare.  Usually, the on buy effect of Mandarin is better late in the game when you want another shot at buying Province with your Gold or something.

Welcome to the forums.

[Jean-Michel]

Also, the main function of Mandarin is quite weak to be worth $5. I'd say it's something like ~$4 instead. So you could think of Mandarin openings as 4/5/2 instead of 5/5/2.

[Awaclus]

Because Copper isn't a very good card and you don't usually want to buy a Mandarin when most of your Treasures in play are Coppers. jsh357 and Jean-Michel are correct, too.

[ipofanes]

That said, there are some decks that will like having a Mandarin and don't mind getting started slower, but those are probably pretty rare. 

Would Native Village (or Crossroads), Mandarin, Mint be an example of an opening where Mandarin is advisable?

[Awaclus]

That said, there are some decks that will like having a Mandarin and don't mind getting started slower, but those are probably pretty rare. 

Would Native Village (or Crossroads), Mandarin, Mint be an example of an opening where Mandarin is advisable?

Depends on the board, obviously. Most of the time I would say no, but if it's an obvious engine board and Mint is the only trashing, then yes.

[WanderingWinder]

I would put it this way: Copper is a bad card, so making you play your coppers more often (by putting them back on the deck via mandarin) is generally not a good thing.

[DG]

There are a few times when buying an early Mandarin has a purpose. This could be opening cellar/mandarin/stables perhaps, since the cellar and stables are not offering much if they can only draw more copper and estates.

It is also worth sometimes keeping your powder dry with a mandarin. There might a perfect {gold, silver, estate, estate, estate} hand for a mandarin later and you don't want your deck to be full of mandarins already when it comes.

[itchiko]

i always wondered but i never took the time to make the stat myself.

How good is a Mandarin/Potion opening to reach 3P on the first reshuffle? It may be one turn slower but if it is more stable it can be worth it if reaching that 3P early is the key to the match.

[AdamH]

Also, the main function of Mandarin is quite weak to be worth $5. I'd say it's something like ~$4 instead. So you could think of Mandarin openings as 4/5/2 instead of 5/5/2.

I think Mandarin is a good card. It's not always super-power-mega-awesome but I think it's just as good for Big Money as Courtyard. Granted, Count is pretty much strictly better* but I definitely think it's good.

* "Count: Strictly Better™ than Mandarin since 2013"
** "Squire: Strictly Better™ than Herbalist since 2013"

[Davio]

Well, if Mandarin is just as good as Courtyard, it obviously isn't since Mandarin costs $5 with a penalty and Courtyard costs just $2.

I think I use Mandarin more often for its on-buy effect mid/late game where I'm hoping that my Gold and Silver can line up with something decent next turn for a Province buy.

[minovsky]

I would put it this way: Copper is a bad card, so making you play your coppers more often (by putting them back on the deck via mandarin) is generally not a good thing.

this is plain enough for me thx!

and thx to everyone who replied. some are still a bit too deep for me, but I am trying to keep playing more to get a better sense!

[AdamH]

Well, if Mandarin is just as good as Courtyard, it obviously isn't since Mandarin costs $5 with a penalty and Courtyard costs just $2.

I think I use Mandarin more often for its on-buy effect mid/late game where I'm hoping that my Gold and Silver can line up with something decent next turn for a Province buy.

This is all true, I'm not saying it's as good as Courtyard, but I'm saying its effect on your deck is as good for Big Money as Courtyard is. Given all of this, I think it's much better when bought in the mid-game as opposed to opening with it.

[Davio]

I think it's interesting enough to consider what 5/5/2 openings might be good, I'm also quite sure we've done that already somewhere else when the card came out.

I think it's worth it to look at a 5/5/2 opening when the other 5's you want provide cycling/drawing but no economy.
If you have 5/2 and open Lab/Cellar, you'll run into a few $4's and $3's before you get to $5 again for more Labs.
Opening Mandarin/Lab/Cellar does delay you a turn, but gives some economy in return. I think a comparison might be to a Feast where you give up some early advantage for a guaranteed $5.

[markusin]

I think I use Mandarin more often for its on-buy effect mid/late game where I'm hoping that my Gold and Silver can line up with something decent next turn for a Province buy.

This effect alone makes money-based strategies a bit more reliable to go for when Mandarin is on the board. It helps that Mandarin is a decent card in those decks as well.

[eliegel34]

This is all true, I'm not saying it's as good as Courtyard, but I'm saying its effect on your deck is as good for Big Money as Courtyard is. Given all of this, I think it's much better when bought in the mid-game as opposed to opening with it.

I don't think the put 1 card back effect is as good for Mandarin as it is for Courtyard, since you are choosing from 4 cards vs. 7.

When I've played BM Mandarin, I've always opened Mandarin/Mandarin/Silver/-.  Mandarin seems pretty good as a big money enabler; I would guess similar to Smithy.

[manthos88]

I would definitely open 5/5/2 in an IGG game...

[SirPeebles]

I would definitely open 5/5/2 in an IGG game...

Maybe if I'm first player, but if I'm last player I probably want to buy the IGG turn 1 to get a Curse into your deck before you shuffle.

[c4master]

In short: The more treasure it returns to the top of the deck, the more Mandarin slows you down.

Think of it like this:
If you return your Copper to the deck and purchase a Mandarin, you increase the number of turns between buying the Mandarin/other good $5 card and playing it.  Meanwhile, if your opponent also opens 5/2 but gets a good $5 card (let's say Witch) he can potentially play it on turn 3.  This is probably bad for you, since he's reaping the benefit of playing the Witch earlier.  It slows down your momentum, pretty much. 

That said, there are some decks that will like having a Mandarin and don't mind getting started slower, but those are probably pretty rare.  Usually, the on buy effect of Mandarin is better late in the game when you want another shot at buying Province with your Gold or something.

Welcome to the forums.

Actually, winning the split in a plain witch game with no engine depends much more on luck than on 1 turn, because you have to reshuffle your (most probably two) witches twice before the curses are gone. Since later on, a reshuffle takes about 2-3 turns, this means, you would roughly deal about 0.5 curses less. Still, the mandarin helps you on turn 4-6 to get one more witch before your second shuffle, so you would rather win one turn and thus lead by 0.5 curses. So I claim, you could actually more often than not win the curse split AND have a nice card for late game (more reliable than witches if there are no villages).

If there are villages on the board, the whole thing changes, since you can maybe play your witches more often than every other turn. Thus, it's more about who's first to play 5-6 witches, and less about who can do it more reliably.

Yet, I would probably not go for Mandarin if there is an IGG, since it deals curses faster than witches, i.e. every time you buy one. So this card doesn't depend on reshuffles and thus you are more likely to lose the split if you "waste" one turn.

Of course, strong terminal attacks like ghost ship stringly seem to favor not opening mandarin, whereas nonterminal draw cards like lab or stables seem to favor mandarin.

[Grujah]

There are a few times when buying an early Mandarin has a purpose. This could be opening cellar/mandarin/stables perhaps, since the cellar and stables are not offering much if they can only draw more copper and estates.

Madarin/Hunting Party Opening, transitioning into HP/Mandarin/Silver/Gold thing?

[Stealth Tomato]

We should probably stop talking about 5/5/2 openings, because Mandarin isn't one. It's a Mandarin/5/2 opening.

5/5/2 would obviously be amazing if you could open, say, Mountebank/Mountebank/nothing, but you can't, because the first card is Mandarin. Would you want to open Mine/5/2 if you could? Probably not.

When you buy Mandarin with your 5, your deck gains a Mandarin and in exchange you are a turn behind on everything else, because you just doubled Turn 1. So if you went first, you're now going second plus a Mandarin, and if you went second, you're now going a turn later than your opponent plus a Mandarin.

[ehunt]

We used to have a fun mandarin/mandarin/mandarin /apprentice opening. Is that still done these days ?

[LastFootnote]

Would you want to open Mine/5/2 if you could? Probably not.

Yes, very often I would. Mine is better the earlier and more often you play it. On most boards, I'd much prefer a Mine/5/2 opening than a Mandarin/5/2 opening.

[c4master]

We should probably stop talking about 5/5/2 openings, because Mandarin isn't one. It's a Mandarin/5/2 opening.

5/5/2 would obviously be amazing if you could open, say, Mountebank/Mountebank/nothing, but you can't, because the first card is Mandarin. Would you want to open Mine/5/2 if you could? Probably not.

When you buy Mandarin with your 5, your deck gains a Mandarin and in exchange you are a turn behind on everything else, because you just doubled Turn 1. So if you went first, you're now going second plus a Mandarin, and if you went second, you're now going a turn later than your opponent plus a Mandarin.

Even if you repeat it 20 times, it's still wrong. You're not one turn behind, what counts (ecept for IGG/Inn) is the shuffle. The correct point would be "one shuffle behind", but this doesn't happen.
The truth is: Mandarin helps you in getting exactly 5 or 6 on your turns 4-6 which helps you getting more of the $5-cards BEFORE your second shuffle.

And yes, in about 75% of all games, I would gladly open Mine/5/2. Even Mandarin/5/2 is good, if there is no serious trashing and at least one other $5 card, I would like to get two of.

[Stealth Tomato]

We should probably stop talking about 5/5/2 openings, because Mandarin isn't one. It's a Mandarin/5/2 opening.

5/5/2 would obviously be amazing if you could open, say, Mountebank/Mountebank/nothing, but you can't, because the first card is Mandarin. Would you want to open Mine/5/2 if you could? Probably not.

When you buy Mandarin with your 5, your deck gains a Mandarin and in exchange you are a turn behind on everything else, because you just doubled Turn 1. So if you went first, you're now going second plus a Mandarin, and if you went second, you're now going a turn later than your opponent plus a Mandarin.

Even if you repeat it 20 times, it's still wrong. You're not one turn behind, what counts (ecept for IGG/Inn) is the shuffle. The correct point would be "one shuffle behind", but this doesn't happen.
The truth is: Mandarin helps you in getting exactly 5 or 6 on your turns 4-6 which helps you getting more of the $5-cards BEFORE your second shuffle.

And yes, in about 75% of all games, I would gladly open Mine/5/2. Even Mandarin/5/2 is good, if there is no serious trashing and at least one other $5 card, I would like to get two of.

But you already get one of them before Shuffle 1, and if you want it that badly, you probably want to be playing it as early as possible. Most of the good $5s help generate more $5 hands on their own, and a lot of them are terminal. Sure, Mandarin is going to make it pretty likely that on turns 4-5, you'll pick up 2 more $5 cards, and you'll have three 5s and Mandarin in your second shuffle. Meanwhile, your opponent picked up his second 5 on turns 3-4, had it in his second shuffle, and used his two 5s to pick up two more on turns 5-6 before he shuffles again. You're now basically even on 5s, he's been playing them more, and you're stuck with Mandarin slowing you down which is a bad thing in the early game.

[c4master]

We should probably stop talking about 5/5/2 openings, because Mandarin isn't one. It's a Mandarin/5/2 opening.

5/5/2 would obviously be amazing if you could open, say, Mountebank/Mountebank/nothing, but you can't, because the first card is Mandarin. Would you want to open Mine/5/2 if you could? Probably not.

When you buy Mandarin with your 5, your deck gains a Mandarin and in exchange you are a turn behind on everything else, because you just doubled Turn 1. So if you went first, you're now going second plus a Mandarin, and if you went second, you're now going a turn later than your opponent plus a Mandarin.

Even if you repeat it 20 times, it's still wrong. You're not one turn behind, what counts (ecept for IGG/Inn) is the shuffle. The correct point would be "one shuffle behind", but this doesn't happen.
The truth is: Mandarin helps you in getting exactly 5 or 6 on your turns 4-6 which helps you getting more of the $5-cards BEFORE your second shuffle.

And yes, in about 75% of all games, I would gladly open Mine/5/2. Even Mandarin/5/2 is good, if there is no serious trashing and at least one other $5 card, I would like to get two of.

But you already get one of them before Shuffle 1, and if you want it that badly, you probably want to be playing it as early as possible. Most of the good $5s help generate more $5 hands on their own, and a lot of them are terminal. Sure, Mandarin is going to make it pretty likely that on turns 4-5, you'll pick up 2 more $5 cards, and you'll have three 5s and Mandarin in your second shuffle. Meanwhile, your opponent picked up his second 5 on turns 3-4, had it in his second shuffle, and used his two 5s to pick up two more on turns 5-6 before he shuffles again. You're now basically even on 5s, he's been playing them more, and you're stuck with Mandarin slowing you down which is a bad thing in the early game.

Let's check this for the base set:
Council Room --> true (+4 cards ~ +2,8 coins), but also helps the opponent
Festival --> might be true, yet no better than silver in gaining more $5-cards (you have 2+ 4 cards with an average of about 0.7 coins which roughly concludes to 5)
Laboratory --> false (you have 6 cards --> average = $4.2)
Library --> just like festival as good as silver
Market --> false (1 + 5*0.7 = 4.5 average)
Mine --> false (1 + 4*0.7 = 3.5 average)
Witch --> false (see Laboratory)

Which of these would be a "first-pick"? Witch is a trap, I'd say. Council Room is good, but only if you're desperately in need of more money and can either buy a good $6 or use the +buy. Library, festival (First-Pick?), Laboratory and Market do help, but not as much as Mandarin does:

Mandarin+Copper+3Estates --> Put back the copper and buy something for $3
Mandarin+2 Coppers+2Estates --> Put an estate back and buy the $5-card you like
Mandarin+3 Coppers+Estate --> Put 1 Copper back and buy a $5
Mandarin+4 Coppers --> Put 1 Copper back and buy a$5 or $6.

Since your money density is below 1 at that point, Mandarin is in any of these cases better then silver!

Mandarin+Terminal --> put the terminal back (except the edge cases where there is only one curse left to deal and you have a curser or where yoe need to get a special card right on this turn before the game ends (Duchy)). Delaying the play of your terminal by one turn usually doesn't change anything, but mandarin grants $3 for that, which should be enough to buy another $5.

[KingZog3]

Delaying a turn is a lot, especially since many games don't last more than 20turns or so.

[eHalcyon]

Delaying a turn is a lot, especially since many games don't last more than 20turns or so.

Seconded. It can mean winning the Curse split, among other things. It would be foolish to open Mandarin in a Witch game.

Also, there are more 5s to consider than the ones in Base. And again, if the power 5 you really want is terminal, that Mandarin is going to get in the way by collision.

[c4master]

Actually, your turns get better because of the mandarin.
Delaying your first action play by one turn actually only means: You play your action on turn 5 instead of turn 4. Otherwise you would play it on turn 4 and you would play no action on turn 5, because you don't have more than 2 (or 3, if you purchase a $2 card) action cards before your second reshuffle.
Again: Any Purchases of (action) cards don't change anything until you shuffle and draw those purchased action cards. Since the reshuffle will only be slowed marginally (one card each time you play mandarin), there's not much of opportunity cost.

And laying back a copper in the beginning is not that bad, because your money density is lower than 1. This improves the chance on getting another $5 in your next hand, and it helps balancing your turns.

If there is great trashing like chapel, things change.

----


collision: Put back the other terminal and play it next turn unless you really need to play it (see edge cases).

@eHalcyon: I bet, opening mandarin in a witch game with no villages and no chapel would be better than opening witch. Maybe someone can check this on the simulator.

[eHalcyon]

One turn from buying Mandarin is not marginal, and the one card of anti-cycling from playing Mandarin really adds up.  If you collide and kick back the non-Mandarin card, you are delaying you playing of that card by another turn, which is significant in the case of power 5s.  Doing that with Witch is just asking to lose the Curse split 7-3.  That isn't even considering the risk of the kicked back card missing the shuffle, which would be disastrous.

I'm pretty sure that double Witch BM will crush Mandarin-Witch BM, regardless of whether you buy a second Witch there or not.

[c4master]

One turn from buying Mandarin is not marginal, and the one card of anti-cycling from playing Mandarin really adds up.  If you collide and kick back the non-Mandarin card, you are delaying you playing of that card by another turn, which is significant in the case of power 5s.  Doing that with Witch is just asking to lose the Curse split 7-3.  That isn't even considering the risk of the kicked back card missing the shuffle, which would be disastrous.

I'm pretty sure that double Witch BM will crush Mandarin-Witch BM, regardless of whether you buy a second Witch there or not.

All right, i just tried it in the simulator. DoubleWitch seems to win about 67%.

I cannot see, whether this is due to losing the split or due to some other reason.

Anyways, I admit, you're right. Even if a human could play it better, he would probably lose against straight double witch.

----

More surprisingly: It doesn't even matter when you buy the Mandarin! Even after both witches, you still lose 65% of all games.

It's 50-50 if you delay the Mandarin until after your second Province.
Delaying it until after the first Province is still a disadvantage (53-47).

----

If delaying helps, this probably means, the curses are gone by that time. Still, later on, a mandarin can hardly be any better than a witch in a big money deck.
I'm going to check this again with trashing, as soon as I have enough time to do so.

[Polk5440]

All right, i just tried it in the simulator. DoubleWitch seems to win about 67%.

I cannot see, whether this is due to losing the split or due to some other reason.

Early on, the Mandarin buy hurts you significantly in two ways: it prevents you from getting a Witch as soon as possible (so you fall a little behind on the curse war) and it adds a terminal action to your deck which Witch can draw dead.

More surprisingly: It doesn't even matter when you buy the Mandarin! Even after both witches, you still lose 65% of all games.

Later on, Mandarin becomes a worse buy than Duchy. In the sims, it looks more like a mirror the later you buy it, though, which is why the percentages appear more favorable.

[c4master]

I tried some more. Here is the only AI (with Mandarin, Witch and BM), that reliably beats doubleWitch, I could find:

Code: [Select]

{
  name: 'DoubleWitchMandarin'
  requires: ['Witch', 'Mandarin']
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Colony" if my.countInDeck("Platinum") > 0
    "Province" if state.countInSupply("Colony") <= 6 and my.countInDeck("Gold") > 0
    "Witch" if my.countInDeck("Witch") < 2
    "Duchy" if 0 < state.gainsToEndGame() <= 5
    "Mandarin" if my.countInDeck("Mandarin") < 1 and my.countInDeck("Province") > 2
    "Estate" if 0 < state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Platinum"
    "Gold"
    "Silver"
  ]
}

It archieves about 50% to 53% wins against plain doubleWitch.

Maybe it's because you should sometimes put back a silver and only buy a gold instead of a province. I'm not sure about that. The AI favors the province, though.

[manthos88]

We used to have a fun mandarin/mandarin/mandarin /apprentice opening. Is that still done these days ?

Wow! I had never thought of that actually! Sounds like fun! But u probably dont want to get more than 2 Mandarins, perhaps?

[popsofctown]

We used to have a fun mandarin/mandarin/mandarin /apprentice opening. Is that still done these days ?

Wow! I had never thought of that actually! Sounds like fun! But u probably dont want to get more than 2 Mandarins, perhaps?

Depends on the board

[scott_pilgrim]

I opened something like Mandarin/Mandarin/Mandarin/Duchy on a Duke board recently.  I have no idea if it was a reasonable thing to do, but it was fun.

[thespaceinvader]

It's probably worth noting that it's NOT a 5/5/2 opening, it's a mandarin/5/2 opening, so unless you're making good use of the mandarin, you might just as well have opened whatever/2.

Not say mandarin's always bad (opening mandarin/mandarin/.../apprentice is kinda funny, though there's probably a point where a: you saturate your deck and you still only get one apprentice per shuffle, and b: you spend way too many turns doing it and your opponent massively outraces you).  I suspect 3's probably the sweet spot, you can always buy more.

[Awaclus]

It's probably worth noting that it's NOT a 5/5/2 opening, it's a mandarin/5/2 opening, so unless you're making good use of the mandarin, you might just as well have opened whatever/2.

But Mandarin is an okay $5. The thing that is worth noting that wasting an extra turn with nothing but Coppers isn't usually a very good idea. I would probably open Mandarin much more often if it didn't have the on-buy effect (still not very often, but at least sometimes I guess).

[Stealth Tomato]

It's probably worth noting that it's NOT a 5/5/2 opening, it's a mandarin/5/2 opening, so unless you're making good use of the mandarin, you might just as well have opened whatever/2.

We should probably stop talking about 5/5/2 openings, because Mandarin isn't one. It's a Mandarin/5/2 opening.

I feel like I'm in a weird sort of time vortex.

[gamesou]

Is Mandarin/Rebuild/- a good opening with 5/5/2 ?

I would say so, since usually opening Rebuild makes it hard to reach $5 on turns 3/4. Plus the top-decking effect of Mandarin can be useful later in the game.

[eHalcyon]

Is Mandarin/Rebuild/- a good opening with 5/5/2 ?

I would say so, since usually opening Rebuild makes it hard to reach $5 on turns 3/4. Plus the top-decking effect of Mandarin can be useful later in the game.

I would guess that skipping Mandarin is better.  I'd rather play my Rebuild a turn earlier and keep that momentum.  I'm not sure though.

[KingZog3]

Is Mandarin/Rebuild/- a good opening with 5/5/2 ?

I would say so, since usually opening Rebuild makes it hard to reach $5 on turns 3/4. Plus the top-decking effect of Mandarin can be useful later in the game.

I would guess that skipping Mandarin is better.  I'd rather play my Rebuild a turn earlier and keep that momentum.  I'm not sure though.

You aren't delaying the Rebuild play with Mandarin. I think it would mostly be to help hit $5. Well I suppose you are slowing yourself down by putting a card back which slows down Rebuild plays, and the turn delay at the start, but I don't think that's too important since Rebuild cycles so fast anyway. I'm not sure it's that important though, since Silver is almost as good as Mandarin(for hitting $5) and doesn't require you to put cards back and doesn't eat up a turn at the start of the game.

So actually I do agree with you after writing this post. That was a pretty fast change of mind on my part.

[Davio]

I remembered this discussion when I played a recent game with Mandarin/Hunting Party.

Is this a thing?

I raced my 2/5 -/Mandarin/Hunting Party opening to 4 Provinces in 11 turns which seemed quick enough, didn't even have to trash anything. Also, no Silver.

Just 4 HP's, 1 Mandarin and 1 Gold did the deed.

I put an HP back when I already had $8, otherwise a Gold early on and a Copper later.

[Polk5440]

I remembered this discussion when I played a recent game with Mandarin/Hunting Party.

Is this a thing?

I raced my 2/5 -/Mandarin/Hunting Party opening to 4 Provinces in 11 turns which seemed quick enough, didn't even have to trash anything. Also, no Silver.

Just 4 HP's, 1 Mandarin and 1 Gold did the deed.

I put an HP back when I already had $8, otherwise a Gold early on and a Copper later.

I like Mandarin as the X for Hunting Party + X a lot. Being able to seed your next hand with an unneeded HP is great.