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Author Topic: Cookie Clicker?  (Read 114695 times)

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werothegreat

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Cookie Clicker?
« on: February 13, 2014, 09:06:13 pm »
+1

So today, Cookie Clicker had their Valentine's Day update, and it's a pretty damn good one.  I wouldn't have mentioned this here, except I saw a rather familiar face on reddit:

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liopoil

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2014, 09:12:36 pm »
0

yep, we've been talking about cookie clicker a lot in the random stuff thread
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SirPeebles

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2014, 09:35:58 pm »
+6

It's like I exist off of f.ds
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KingZog3

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2014, 11:17:31 pm »
+4

It's like I exist off of f.ds

WanderingWinder makes videos on youtube, so clearly we all exist off f.ds...
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jonts26

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2014, 11:19:56 pm »
+1

Cookie Monster is broken and I cant figure out how big all these number are.
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jonts26

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2014, 11:25:00 pm »
0

OK, I guess I need to get 5000 heavenly chips to unlock season switching. I've got work to do.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2014, 11:56:10 pm »
+2

The fact that this game exists perturbs me slightly. Can anyone explain the appeal?
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2014, 12:03:31 am »
+5

The fact that this game exists perturbs me slightly. Can anyone explain the appeal?

No.
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werothegreat

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2014, 12:26:40 am »
+1

The fact that this game exists perturbs me slightly. Can anyone explain the appeal?

It's actually quite intricate.  But how can you not see the appeal in getting stuff, which lets you get different stuff, which lets you get the first stuff more quickly?
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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2014, 03:39:35 am »
+7

The fact that this game exists perturbs me slightly. Can anyone explain the appeal?

Watching numbers go up is like, one of humanity's primal urges, man.
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KingZog3

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2014, 08:21:53 am »
0

The fact that this game exists perturbs me slightly. Can anyone explain the appeal?

Watching numbers go up is like, one of humanity's primal urges, man.

I don't get it either. It's only a game by technicality.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2014, 09:04:26 am »
+1

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Davio

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2014, 09:32:44 am »
+1

The fact that this game exists perturbs me slightly. Can anyone explain the appeal?

Watching numbers go up is like, one of humanity's primal urges, man.

I don't get it either. It's only a game by technicality.
It's a more of a philosophical game.

After a while you realize it's not that different from any other game where one of the main goals is "leveling up" or "getting to the end".
You just want to see what's behind the curtain.

This is not that different from all those "free-to-play", "pay-to-make-things-go-faster" games out there.

You could play this as an actual game by trying to optimize getting as many cookies as possible in the least amount of time.
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KingZog3

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2014, 09:40:24 am »
0

The fact that this game exists perturbs me slightly. Can anyone explain the appeal?

Watching numbers go up is like, one of humanity's primal urges, man.

I don't get it either. It's only a game by technicality.
It's a more of a philosophical game.

After a while you realize it's not that different from any other game where one of the main goals is "leveling up" or "getting to the end".
You just want to see what's behind the curtain.

This is not that different from all those "free-to-play", "pay-to-make-things-go-faster" games out there.

You could play this as an actual game by trying to optimize getting as many cookies as possible in the least amount of time.

I disagree on what a game is. A game is an interesting series of decisions. Games without choice are usually boring. Dominion is all about choosing what strategy and what cards to buy. Skyrim is about leveling up yes, but it's choice of perks and weapon styles that make that interesting, not to mention exploration of a giant world and having overcome what you meet. Even action games like Call of Duty and GTAV force the player to make on the spot decisions. An enemy comes around the corner, and you have to react with the proper decision.

Cookie Clicker poses essentially no decisions and is therefore only a game in technicality in the same way "Who picks the higher number" is game. There is a decision, but it's so obvious that is has no challenge, no appeal and no motivation to make it, other than the fact that other people are making it too.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2014, 09:47:36 am »
+1

The fact that this game exists perturbs me slightly. Can anyone explain the appeal?

Watching numbers go up is like, one of humanity's primal urges, man.

I don't get it either. It's only a game by technicality.
It's a more of a philosophical game.

After a while you realize it's not that different from any other game where one of the main goals is "leveling up" or "getting to the end".
You just want to see what's behind the curtain.

This is not that different from all those "free-to-play", "pay-to-make-things-go-faster" games out there.

You could play this as an actual game by trying to optimize getting as many cookies as possible in the least amount of time.

I disagree on what a game is. A game is an interesting series of decisions. Games without choice are usually boring. Dominion is all about choosing what strategy and what cards to buy. Skyrim is about leveling up yes, but it's choice of perks and weapon styles that make that interesting, not to mention exploration of a giant world and having overcome what you meet. Even action games like Call of Duty and GTAV force the player to make on the spot decisions. An enemy comes around the corner, and you have to react with the proper decision.

Cookie Clicker poses essentially no decisions and is therefore only a game in technicality in the same way "Who picks the higher number" is game. There is a decision, but it's so obvious that is has no challenge, no appeal and no motivation to make it, other than the fact that other people are making it too.

Cookie clicker certainly possesses decisions in terms of optimization.  Peebles outlined some methodology to making better decisions. You may think that's boring, but that's a subjective thing.  So is "so obvious" and "no challenge". 

In essence I'm not sure it's really that much different than Final Fantasy, which is my favorite game series.  Of course, that has storylines and immersive worlds to heighten the experience.
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jonts26

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2014, 10:40:31 am »
0

Cookie clicker does have a story as you progress through it. It's not all that deep, but it is entertaining, sometimes funny, and oftentimes bizarre.
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KingZog3

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2014, 10:42:27 am »
0

The fact that this game exists perturbs me slightly. Can anyone explain the appeal?

Watching numbers go up is like, one of humanity's primal urges, man.

I don't get it either. It's only a game by technicality.
It's a more of a philosophical game.

After a while you realize it's not that different from any other game where one of the main goals is "leveling up" or "getting to the end".
You just want to see what's behind the curtain.

This is not that different from all those "free-to-play", "pay-to-make-things-go-faster" games out there.

You could play this as an actual game by trying to optimize getting as many cookies as possible in the least amount of time.

I disagree on what a game is. A game is an interesting series of decisions. Games without choice are usually boring. Dominion is all about choosing what strategy and what cards to buy. Skyrim is about leveling up yes, but it's choice of perks and weapon styles that make that interesting, not to mention exploration of a giant world and having overcome what you meet. Even action games like Call of Duty and GTAV force the player to make on the spot decisions. An enemy comes around the corner, and you have to react with the proper decision.

Cookie Clicker poses essentially no decisions and is therefore only a game in technicality in the same way "Who picks the higher number" is game. There is a decision, but it's so obvious that is has no challenge, no appeal and no motivation to make it, other than the fact that other people are making it too.

Cookie clicker certainly possesses decisions in terms of optimization.  Peebles outlined some methodology to making better decisions. You may think that's boring, but that's a subjective thing.  So is "so obvious" and "no challenge". 

In essence I'm not sure it's really that much different than Final Fantasy, which is my favorite game series.  Of course, that has storylines and immersive worlds to heighten the experience.

Of course it's subjective. I've never played Final Fantasy so I can't say, but what I know I think Final Fantasy is mostly about the story/characters and world.

Perhaps a better description is that games rely on decisions with consequence. There are penalties in GTAV for dying or getting arrested. You drive badly? You'll crash and go to the hospital. The Witcher 2 had severe penalties. Death meant you had to load your previous save, or checkpoint if you're on a mission (essentially a large loss of progress). Compare to the most recent Prince of Persia, where I was in the middle of a battle, left to answer the phone and came back 20mins later without any change. My character died and appeared in the same spot over and over again. Why am I playing, or more importantly why do I want to get better, if playing badly is the same as playing well?

Cookie Clicker is just pressing a button, and yeah I guess you can click it more optimally than others. But there isn't any consequence for doing it worse. You get less cookies that don't do anything. There's no mechanics in the game aside clicking for more. Maybe I just need a goal to enjoy a game, I don't know.

And SirPeeles likes math, and I think he'll enjoy solving optimization problems. It's not so much about clicking for cookies than it is about math and problem solving.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2014, 10:53:20 am »
0

The fact that this game exists perturbs me slightly. Can anyone explain the appeal?

Watching numbers go up is like, one of humanity's primal urges, man.

I don't get it either. It's only a game by technicality.
It's a more of a philosophical game.

After a while you realize it's not that different from any other game where one of the main goals is "leveling up" or "getting to the end".
You just want to see what's behind the curtain.

This is not that different from all those "free-to-play", "pay-to-make-things-go-faster" games out there.

You could play this as an actual game by trying to optimize getting as many cookies as possible in the least amount of time.

I disagree on what a game is. A game is an interesting series of decisions. Games without choice are usually boring. Dominion is all about choosing what strategy and what cards to buy. Skyrim is about leveling up yes, but it's choice of perks and weapon styles that make that interesting, not to mention exploration of a giant world and having overcome what you meet. Even action games like Call of Duty and GTAV force the player to make on the spot decisions. An enemy comes around the corner, and you have to react with the proper decision.

Cookie Clicker poses essentially no decisions and is therefore only a game in technicality in the same way "Who picks the higher number" is game. There is a decision, but it's so obvious that is has no challenge, no appeal and no motivation to make it, other than the fact that other people are making it too.

Cookie clicker certainly possesses decisions in terms of optimization.  Peebles outlined some methodology to making better decisions. You may think that's boring, but that's a subjective thing.  So is "so obvious" and "no challenge". 

In essence I'm not sure it's really that much different than Final Fantasy, which is my favorite game series.  Of course, that has storylines and immersive worlds to heighten the experience.

Of course it's subjective. I've never played Final Fantasy so I can't say, but what I know I think Final Fantasy is mostly about the story/characters and world.

Perhaps a better description is that games rely on decisions with consequence. There are penalties in GTAV for dying or getting arrested. You drive badly? You'll crash and go to the hospital. The Witcher 2 had severe penalties. Death meant you had to load your previous save, or checkpoint if you're on a mission (essentially a large loss of progress). Compare to the most recent Prince of Persia, where I was in the middle of a battle, left to answer the phone and came back 20mins later without any change. My character died and appeared in the same spot over and over again. Why am I playing, or more importantly why do I want to get better, if playing badly is the same as playing well?

Cookie Clicker is just pressing a button, and yeah I guess you can click it more optimally than others. But there isn't any consequence for doing it worse. You get less cookies that don't do anything. There's no mechanics in the game aside clicking for more. Maybe I just need a goal to enjoy a game, I don't know.

And SirPeeles likes math, and I think he'll enjoy solving optimization problems. It's not so much about clicking for cookies than it is about math and problem solving.

Sure, but considering your character crashing and going to the hospital as a worse consequence than making cookies at an inefficient rate is a matter of perspective.  It's a function of how you set your goals.  Do any games really have consequences, except for causing you to use your time in a way you deem inefficient?   

Yes, a game like GTA does more goal-setting for you, but ultimately your achievements in GTA are just as meaningless or meaningful as the amount of cookies you create.  Ultimately it's just some stored data on a drive.  I think that was the point that was made (Davio?) about it being philosophical.. all the bells and whistles are stripped down and the blatent achievement-unlocking is exposed.

Plus, the game is funny (for at least some period of time).  I mean, you can unleash the Grandmapocalypse.. how is that not appealing?

Oh, and to this:

Quote
And SirPeeles likes math, and I think he'll enjoy solving optimization problems. It's not so much about clicking for cookies than it is about math and problem solving.

No game is about clicking for <experience, storyline progression, etc.>, that's just a mechanism.  I like playing RPGs (Final Fantasy-like) because I like to build and design characters and have them grow in power.  Not because I like clicking to cause a sword to swing.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 10:55:44 am by Witherweaver »
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KingZog3

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2014, 10:58:09 am »
0

The fact that this game exists perturbs me slightly. Can anyone explain the appeal?

Watching numbers go up is like, one of humanity's primal urges, man.

I don't get it either. It's only a game by technicality.
It's a more of a philosophical game.

After a while you realize it's not that different from any other game where one of the main goals is "leveling up" or "getting to the end".
You just want to see what's behind the curtain.

This is not that different from all those "free-to-play", "pay-to-make-things-go-faster" games out there.

You could play this as an actual game by trying to optimize getting as many cookies as possible in the least amount of time.

I disagree on what a game is. A game is an interesting series of decisions. Games without choice are usually boring. Dominion is all about choosing what strategy and what cards to buy. Skyrim is about leveling up yes, but it's choice of perks and weapon styles that make that interesting, not to mention exploration of a giant world and having overcome what you meet. Even action games like Call of Duty and GTAV force the player to make on the spot decisions. An enemy comes around the corner, and you have to react with the proper decision.

Cookie Clicker poses essentially no decisions and is therefore only a game in technicality in the same way "Who picks the higher number" is game. There is a decision, but it's so obvious that is has no challenge, no appeal and no motivation to make it, other than the fact that other people are making it too.

Cookie clicker certainly possesses decisions in terms of optimization.  Peebles outlined some methodology to making better decisions. You may think that's boring, but that's a subjective thing.  So is "so obvious" and "no challenge". 

In essence I'm not sure it's really that much different than Final Fantasy, which is my favorite game series.  Of course, that has storylines and immersive worlds to heighten the experience.

Of course it's subjective. I've never played Final Fantasy so I can't say, but what I know I think Final Fantasy is mostly about the story/characters and world.

Perhaps a better description is that games rely on decisions with consequence. There are penalties in GTAV for dying or getting arrested. You drive badly? You'll crash and go to the hospital. The Witcher 2 had severe penalties. Death meant you had to load your previous save, or checkpoint if you're on a mission (essentially a large loss of progress). Compare to the most recent Prince of Persia, where I was in the middle of a battle, left to answer the phone and came back 20mins later without any change. My character died and appeared in the same spot over and over again. Why am I playing, or more importantly why do I want to get better, if playing badly is the same as playing well?

Cookie Clicker is just pressing a button, and yeah I guess you can click it more optimally than others. But there isn't any consequence for doing it worse. You get less cookies that don't do anything. There's no mechanics in the game aside clicking for more. Maybe I just need a goal to enjoy a game, I don't know.

And SirPeeles likes math, and I think he'll enjoy solving optimization problems. It's not so much about clicking for cookies than it is about math and problem solving.
Oh, and to this:

Quote
And SirPeeles likes math, and I think he'll enjoy solving optimization problems. It's not so much about clicking for cookies than it is about math and problem solving.

No game is about clicking for <experience, storyline progression, etc.>, that's just a mechanism.  I like playing RPGs (Final Fantasy-like) because I like to build and design characters and have them grow in power.  Not because I like clicking to cause a sword to swing.

That was more about the depth of the game. Just because you can get complicated about it doesn't mean it's actually complicated. I'd elaborate, but I really gtg. Killing too much time here right now :P
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Grujah

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2014, 11:06:41 am »
0

I've done one run (got Elder Santa and most of the achievements) restarted with 300 heavenly chips and got bored.. meh.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2014, 11:07:35 am »
0

Quote
And SirPeeles likes math, and I think he'll enjoy solving optimization problems. It's not so much about clicking for cookies than it is about math and problem solving.

No game is about clicking for <experience, storyline progression, etc.>, that's just a mechanism.  I like playing RPGs (Final Fantasy-like) because I like to build and design characters and have them grow in power.  Not because I like clicking to cause a sword to swing.

That was more about the depth of the game. Just because you can get complicated about it doesn't mean it's actually complicated. I'd elaborate, but I really gtg. Killing too much time here right now :P

Well, yes, that's kind of the point.  Depth isn't exactly an objective feature of the game, it's something that is experienced by the user while playing the game.  Kind of something shared between the player and the record left by the creator.  Like reading a story.  Playing a game mandates a certain amount of suspension of disbelief... it requires us to, at least partially, immerse ourselves in the rules and world of the game.  Cookie clicker (and other such things) are kind of forcing you to face that issue by presenting a game in one of the most simplistic forms. 
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Kirian

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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2014, 11:33:52 am »
0

Well, they're popular enough to have their own subreddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/idleclickinggames/

So let's talk about how to define a "game."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game#Definitions

Personally, I like the Costikyan definition:  "A game is a form of art in which participants, termed players, make decisions in order to manage resources through game tokens in the pursuit of a goal."  By this definition, SMBC's Sisyphus Quest and Progress Quest are not games.  Cookie Clicker, however, is:  it has a goal, requires decisions, and invovled resource management.  And most other things termed games fit that definition, including JRPGs (where the goal is to complete the story, and the resources are characters, levels, and equipment), generalized RPGs (in which the goal is often nebulous or may be manifold:  WOW and KoL do not have one specific goal in mind when you play them, but each person might choose a goal), and of course board games.

Cookie Clicker has goals in the same way WOW has goals.  There's no storyline to complete, but collecting achievements, optimizing buildings to go faster than other people, figuring out how to gain minor advantages that will make cookies faster are goals that are just as valid as WOW goals like... collecting achievements, optimizing equipment to kill things faster than other people, and figuring out how to gain minor advantages that will gain you gold or prestige.

Or Dominion, where the goals are to collect achievements (winning), optimizing your deck to win faster, and figuring out how to gain minor advantages that will gain you VP faster than your opponents.

But here are some thing to compare with the question "Is Cookie Clicker a game?"

Is Tag a game?  (My kids certainly think so)
Is War (the card game) a game? (Again, my 4-yr-old would say yes.)
Is War (the... war) a game?
Is a tabletop RPG a game?
Is a slot machine a game?
Is Farmville a game?

I think the answer to all of these is probably Yes.

Perhaps a better question to ask is "Do I enjoy this game?"  I mean, the answer can most definitely be no.  I certainly don't enjoy War (either type), but then I don't like Catan, or even multiplayer Dominion!

If you don't enjoy idle games like this, I totally wouldn't blame you!  I think they can be amusing for a few days, at least the more intricate ones (see: CivClicker).  But then I also played Mafia Wars for quite a while until I realized that hey, this is just clicking buttons optimally!  Which evolved into idle games like Candy Box, and then Cookie Clicker.
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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2014, 12:08:32 pm »
+1

I'm pretty sure it's not a boardgame however.
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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2014, 12:23:29 pm »
0

I'm not terribly concerned about whether or not Cookie Clicker is a "game", I'm just surprised that what seems like a parody of video games has people genuinely invested in it. Which I guess shouldn't surprise me, people can and do get invested in just about anything. I suppose I'll take it as a zen thing- you lose yourself in the pursuit of cookies.
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Re: Cookie Clicker?
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2014, 12:35:42 pm »
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OK, so, challenge:  Create a deeper idle game, ideally one with a goal!  Though CivClicker does a reasonable job, so you need to be deeper than that, I think.
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