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[Awaclus]

I'm extremely with Awaclus here.

If someone didn't put #vpoff to the title but then disabled the counter after I joined, I'd feel like I got trapped into a game I didn't want to play (and would probably even resign out of frustration).

edit:
for me #vpon signals "I want to play with the counter", #vpoff signals "I want to play without the counter" and no specification signals "I'm fine either way".

Is this #vpon stuff done by Goko?  I was under the impression that it is from an extension that some of you install.  If it is built into Goko, then I agree.

It's on their list of stuff they're going to implement in the future. It's understandable that you might want to #vpoff during the game if you didn't know about the extension, but for what reason you would choose to be uninformative on purpose if you know that a popular extension with a point counter feature exists?

[SirPeebles]

I'm extremely with Awaclus here.

If someone didn't put #vpoff to the title but then disabled the counter after I joined, I'd feel like I got trapped into a game I didn't want to play (and would probably even resign out of frustration).

edit:
for me #vpon signals "I want to play with the counter", #vpoff signals "I want to play without the counter" and no specification signals "I'm fine either way".

Is this #vpon stuff done by Goko?  I was under the impression that it is from an extension that some of you install.  If it is built into Goko, then I agree.

It's on their list of stuff they're going to implement in the future. It's understandable that you might want to #vpoff during the game if you didn't know about the extension, but for what reason you would choose to be uninformative on purpose if you know that a popular extension with a point counter feature exists?

You are assigning malicious intent to others.  That is the same thing silver spawn did regarding "offensive gg"s.   More likely, the person came to play Dominion, and the thought that she needs to essentially specify "standard rules" in the title never occurred to her.

[Polk5440]

8. Having no #vpoff in the title of your game even though you clearly know about the extension and then going #vpoff during the game
Extremely bad manners. Stop it.

You are confusing bad manners with pet peeve.

[Kirian]

There's plenty of space in the title for all the info you need.  "All Sets 5000+ #vpoff streaming" fits easily.

That may fit, but I don't understand a single word of it, aside from (possibly) "All".

All Sets:  I have all of the sets
5000+: I will only play with someone with a rating of 5000 or higher.
#vpoff: I will only play without a point counter.
streaming: I'm streaming this live (recording would be a similar word, if you were recording for YouTube); this is only used by a handful of players, obviously.

[Eevee]

I think knowingly doing what awaclus described is extremely inconsiderate. I don't care about gg's at all, but this actually affects the playing experience in a negative way and there is just no reason for someone to do that (other than ignorance, which is obviously an acceptable excuse, it's just good etiquette, not a rule everyone is required to learn before they can play).

Obviously all this comes back to us needing external extensions to make goko playable, but the thing is so widely used I think it's reasonable to assume even the ones not using it know about it. I'm really baffled this isn't obvious to everyone who is active in the community, so it's great this got brought up.

[Kirian]

You are assigning malicious intent to others.  That is the same thing silver spawn did regarding "offensive gg"s.   More likely, the person came to play Dominion, and the thought that she needs to essentially specify "standard rules" in the title never occurred to her.

Well, I can see two situations here:

(1) Host is unaware of the point counter addon, but doesn't want to play with point counters.  Opponent, after Turn 1, auto-chats the instructions for turning off the point counter.  Host follows the instructions and types #vpoff.

No problem here.

(2) Host is aware of or even runs the addon and doesn't want to play with point counters.  Opponent joins; host immediately types #vpoff.

And this is the one that's a problem.  And yes, half of it is Goko's problem:  If there were a setting like, say, on Iso, where you could choose [use|don't use|don't care] then hey, great, the matchup system will take care of that.  The default setting for someone running the addon, or for someone aware of the addon's near-ubiquity is "I don't care."  If the host is running the addon and wants never to use the counter, then it's really not much trouble to put #vpoff in the game name.  Otherwise, s/he is saying "I don't care" when s/he means "No point counters."

[A Drowned Kernel]

What about the situation where the player is aware of the counter and wants it off, but used the automatch, which automatically creates a game title? Are you obliged to inform your opponent you will be turning the counter off before the game starts? Most people click the "create game" button right away, so if you're not hosting, you don't have much of a chance.

[SirPeebles]

Thanks Kirian.  Is the # important?  Does the extension look for that or something?

As for "All Sets," my confusion is which cards this includes.  Probably at least the expansions, but what about the promos?  I remember seeing some people write "All Cards".  That seems to obviously imply that promos are included, but I remember seeing it back when you could only earn enough shields to get two of the three implemented promos.  Is there any standard lingo these days?

As for this larger debate, someone said that hosting a game which does not specify vpon or vpoff implies that the host doesn't care.  I would turn this around.  If you are choosing to join a game which doesn't specify, then you should be willing to go along with the host.  I mean really, what some of you are arguing is that it is bad manners to host a game using the standard rules without explicitly warning others that the standard rules will be used.  Am I being trolled or something?  How is that a defensible expectation?

[SirPeebles]

Kirian, i'm not familiar with how the vpoff stuff functions.  In scenario 2, what happens if the player does not type vpoff?  Doesn't the point counter need to be manually turned on by typing vpon?

[SCSN]

I've always wondered whether the #vpoff folks might not be taking that whole Dark Ages theme a bit too literally...

[Awaclus]

Kirian, i'm not familiar with how the vpoff stuff functions.  In scenario 2, what happens if the player does not type vpoff?  Doesn't the point counter need to be manually turned on by typing vpon?

Yeah, but the extension has an option which you can enable to automatically type it. If the player does not type #vpoff, players with the extension will see the score and players without the extension can type #vp? at any time to display the score in the chat.

[SirPeebles]

Kirian, i'm not familiar with how the vpoff stuff functions.  In scenario 2, what happens if the player does not type vpoff?  Doesn't the point counter need to be manually turned on by typing vpon?

Yeah, but the extension has an option which you can enable to automatically type it. If the player does not type #vpoff, players with the extension will see the score and players without the extension can type #vp? at any time to display the score in the chat.

Ok, that's what I thought.  That seems awfully presumptuous to just show up and say "hey I'm going to use this software to track my score for me" without asking.  If you aren't willing to ask about it, why should I have any hesitation in shutting it off?  This whole debate baffles me.

[Awaclus]

Kirian, i'm not familiar with how the vpoff stuff functions.  In scenario 2, what happens if the player does not type vpoff?  Doesn't the point counter need to be manually turned on by typing vpon?

Yeah, but the extension has an option which you can enable to automatically type it. If the player does not type #vpoff, players with the extension will see the score and players without the extension can type #vp? at any time to display the score in the chat.

Ok, that's what I thought.  That seems awfully presumptuous to just show up and say "hey I'm going to use this software to track my score for me" without asking.  If you aren't willing to ask about it, why should I have any hesitation in shutting it off?  This whole debate baffles me.

Yeah, you shouldn't hesitate at all. It's just that you should shut it off in the title of your game.

[dondon151]

I've always wondered whether the #vpoff folks might not be taking that whole Dark Ages theme a bit too literally...

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean.

[Polk5440]

I've always wondered whether the #vpoff folks might not be taking that whole Dark Ages theme a bit too literally...

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean.

Presumably that if you are unwilling to outsource low-level point tracking to a computer and insist on playing by the rules of Dominion you are holding back Progress, or something.

[GendoIkari]

I'm assuming that Goko still does the terrible thing of allowing the entire game log to be seen throughout the game? If this is the case, then a point counter makes much less of a difference.

Instead of "the point counter makes it so that tracking how many points each player has is no longer a skill that is useful to be good at the game" to "the point counter makes it so that if you want to know the person's score, you only need to spend a few seconds, rather than a minute or so, to find out what it is".

[GendoIkari]

I've always wondered whether the #vpoff folks might not be taking that whole Dark Ages theme a bit too literally...

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean.

Presumably that if you are unwilling to outsource low-level point tracking to a computer and insist on playing by the rules of Dominion you are holding back Progress, or something.

I assumed that the joke was that the theme of Dark Ages is scarcity and low-cost things; presumably leading to lower-scoring games than other sets. And having "vpoff" sounds like you are getting rid of VP completely, which is the extreme end of low-scoring games.

[KingZog3]

I'm assuming that Goko still does the terrible thing of allowing the entire game log to be seen throughout the game? If this is the case, then a point counter makes much less of a difference.

Instead of "the point counter makes it so that tracking how many points each player has is no longer a skill that is useful to be good at the game" to "the point counter makes it so that if you want to know the person's score, you only need to spend a few seconds, rather than a minute or so, to find out what it is".

You can see the game log, so the tracker is just a convenience. I use it, but I still keep track of what I've bought. It mostly just makes alt-VP games much simpler as opposed to me always checking to see how many cards my opponent has. IRL this is not an issue as I can actually see how big their deck is for things like Gardens.

[KingZog3]

Just played you silverspawn and I made sure not to say gg after I won because I didn't want you to feel bad about the game. I would like to ask though, why did you buy Silk Roads from the start of the game when it was a straight JOAT game?

[2.71828.....]

I've always wondered whether the #vpoff folks might not be taking that whole Dark Ages theme a bit too literally...

I am totally in the #vpany category.  I don't feel the need to have the vp counter, and I don't mind having it on.  However, saying that people are living in the dark ages by not wanting to have the vp counter on is a bit extreme and unhelpful.  There is no problem playing the game without the vp counter as if you were playing in person and not on the computer.  Also what Polk5440 said.

[eHalcyon]

If you really care about having the counter on, then host games with #vpon or only join games with #vpoon.  If you absolutely can't stand having the counter on, then host games with #vpoff or only join games with #vpoff. 

If someone hosts an unspecified game and then opts to turn off the vote counter, then there could be any number of reasons why they didn't just put #vpoff in the title.  Maybe they didn't know that was an option.  Maybe they just forgot.  Maybe they just don't feel like typing that in every title.  And even though the extension is well known and extremely useful, some people don't know about it, and some who do still choose to play without it.

Is the add-on even ubiquitous?  I mean, everyone knows about it in this community, but I would have assumed that there are a decent chunk of casual players who don't know about it, and even upon discovering it would prefer not to install an add-on for something that they only casually play.  And aren't there browsers or platforms on which the add-on is unavailable?

Yeah, a person hosting a game without a tag is ostensibly saying "I don't care", but so is the person joining that game.

[Awaclus]

If someone hosts an unspecified game and then opts to turn off the vote counter, then there could be any number of reasons why they didn't just put #vpoff in the title.  Maybe they didn't know that was an option.  Maybe they just forgot.  Maybe they just don't feel like typing that in every title.  And even though the extension is well known and extremely useful, some people don't know about it, and some who do still choose to play without it.

Is the add-on even ubiquitous?  I mean, everyone knows about it in this community, but I would have assumed that there are a decent chunk of casual players who don't know about it, and even upon discovering it would prefer not to install an add-on for something that they only casually play.  And aren't there browsers or platforms on which the add-on is unavailable?

I understand this, but I'd expect a #vpoff in the title at least from those people who are using a custom avatar.

[AdamH]

There's plenty of space in the title for all the info you need.  "All Sets 5000+ #vpoff streaming" fits easily.

I'm only able to fit 24 characters in the names of my games. How are you able to fit all of that?

[silverspawn]

Just played you silverspawn and I made sure not to say gg after I won because I didn't want you to feel bad about the game. I would like to ask though, why did you buy Silk Roads from the start of the game when it was a straight JOAT game?

idk cause I dont remember that game, but sometimes when im in bad shape, I just do random stuff that makes no sense, and even though I realise it while playing, I still just do it... its a mental problem. similar things have always hold me back in sc2. it doesn't happen to me nearly as often as it used to, but I can't think of many boards where i would open silk road when there's JOAD, so it was probably one of these times. and im at a personal low ranking wise, so... not the best mentality lately.

it's also possible that i've just not seen him. I'll try to dedicate at least a few seconds to every card before every game to think about how i want or don't want to use it, but... well sometimes it doesn't work. I've even managed to overlook chapel in the past. My latest attempt to fix that is to simply stop playing after a thrown game.

about the #vp thing: well, my personal opinion about it is pretty much that vp counters are an incredibly stupid idea, they take skill away from the game, which increases the luck ratio for every specific game, and I'm at a loss to understand why anyone who's invested in dominion would want to have one. So, i always disallow the counter, and I used to put it in the title of my games, but I don't anymore... not really sure why, it wasn't a conscious decision, I just kind of stopped doing it. From now on I'll probably do it again, since I don't want to be bm.

It seems to be controversial though, so I'll put it in the opening post.

You are assigning malicious intent to others.  That is the same thing silver spawn did regarding "offensive gg"s.   More likely, the person came to play Dominion, and the thought that she needs to essentially specify "standard rules" in the title never occurred to her.

The main problem here is that, other than in RTS, a lot of players aren't even aware that someone might have a problem with it, and might just think it shows good manner either way. It's also hard to claim that they are wrong, because there are no objectively valid arguments, and no-one can be forced to respect what is a kind of weird online consensus. Because of this, I can't claim it's bm, no matter how much I dislike it

please explain to me how I did that, because I really don't see it.

Also, pls dont put a space in my name...

What about the situation where the player is aware of the counter and wants it off, but used the automatch, which automatically creates a game title? Are you obliged to inform your opponent you will be turning the counter off before the game starts? Most people click the "create game" button right away, so if you're not hosting, you don't have much of a chance.

If you're playing automatch and your opponent disallowes the vp counter, you just have to deal with it. You could implement a filter for that into the addon, but as is, you can do whatever you want when using automatch.

[Awaclus]

about the #vp thing: well, my personal opinion about it is pretty much that vp counters are an incredibly stupid idea, they take skill away from the game, which increases the luck ratio for every specific game, and I'm at a loss to understand why anyone who's invested in dominion would want to have one.

Because building your deck so that you'll win even with bad draws is a more important skill than memorizing numbers.