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[ashersky]

As the license holders, can't Goko sue for lost profits? They could win or lose such a lawsuit.  Either way, being sued is not something anyone hosting online Dominion should have to face, especially not dougZ. I would think the threshold for when someone can be sued for an online version of Dominion is when it can be argued that the lost profit potential is considerably larger than the cost of the lawsuit.

Hosting A server from some safe haven, well then you just come off as very malicious to the official online Dominion platform and all it's supporters.

Goko should sue themselves, then.  The sole reason Goko loses profits is Goko itself.

[soulnet]

... pretty obviously good ...

That's pretty obviously false, given that there lots of people and associations that fight for copyright to cease to exist.

[theory]

That implies no concept is "obviously good" if "lots of people and associations" fight against it.

The debate about IP law is interesting and amusing, but please keep debate about what it should be (as opposed to what it is) in RSP.

[GeoLib]

Someone explain to me how a private server for people who already paid for Goko constitutes ripping anyone off.

But even if this sort of thing could happen, is it really in Goko's interest to have the people who purchased all the sets leave off to play on some other site, where they can't play games with people who haven't purchased the sets but would be willing to if their Goko experience was good?

My answer is yes, because the Goko servers currently can't handle all those players playing on their site without slowdowns. I wish I was joking.

So why don't we propose this to Goko? Problem: We are frustrated by your online implementation of Dominion and you can't handle the server traffic (among other things). Solution: Allow the return of isotropic, but add a password protection and only invite people who have already purchased all the sets on Goko. This reduces their server traffic and makes us happy. It keeps the community alive, so there will actually be someone to play online Dominion if and when they actually fix it.

My friend asked me yesterday if he should buy the sets on Goko and I had to tell him no because it really sucked right now. It made me sad.

[hsiale]

Guys I just want to reliably play Dominion online because I have a hard time finding IRL people to play with at the same time and place as me.  I own all the sets.  I'm willing to pay money to do this.

This reminds me of what I recently read at "About" page of play-agricola.com.

The twelve games available to play here are 12 actual board games that I purchased in San Diego, California. After purchasing the games, I scanned the pieces and instructions. The actual games were put in storage not to be used. Instead of using the actual games, I use the digitalized copies here. That is why only twelve games can be played at once and nothing can be downloaded and printed.

The physical board game is copyrighted (2007) by Lookout Games. The English language publisher, Z-Man Games, Inc. holds copyrights (2008) also. The board game was designed by Uwe Rosenberg. It is illegal to download, reuse, or print any material off of this website without written permission from Lookout Games, Z-Man Games, Inc., and other involved persons.

As long as no one is already using it, you are welcome to borrow and play with one of my board games. My name is Chris Deotte and my email is cdeotte@ucsd.edu

If you have a good time on this site, consider making a donation to support my efforts. Donate Here.  I am gratful to everyone involved in making Agricola available. It's a great game, ENJOY!

I wonder if this indeed works or simply Lookout Games don't want to shut this site down. A set of Dominion with all expansions allows 20 disjoint kingdoms. You need to add some sets of base cards and probably use blanks to print more Spoils. I guess one of the problems could be storage space for all those games set aside.

But I prefer the idea of a reliable server just for people who own all sets on Goko. Hosted somewhere where it's not a legal problem, I also don't see any moral problem in it if only people who paid Goko play.

[TheExpressicist]

So why don't we propose this to Goko? Problem: We are frustrated by your online implementation of Dominion and you can't handle the server traffic (among other things). Solution: Allow the return of isotropic, but add a password protection and only invite people who have already purchased all the sets on Goko. This reduces their server traffic and makes us happy. It keeps the community alive, so there will actually be someone to play online Dominion if and when they actually fix it.

Out of all the plans that involve relaunching Isotropic, this one to me makes the most sense. It proposes a specific solution which is both logically feasible and ethically sound. And it's not a unilateral demand; it's a compromise that ostensibly benefits everyone involved. (It's logistically feasible because Goko owns the license and it's ethically sound as long as whoever is running the server upholds the promise to restrict it to those who have purchased all the sets through Goko.)

There's the issue though - it relies pretty heavily on Dougz' cooperation, and it also places an additional imposition on him. Goko would likely want some kind of contractual obligation to ensure people don't get to play it for free. And that's some treacherous territory to be getting into. That said, if he and Goko would be up for it, this plan seems to make the most sense. It would be wise though to contingency plan in the event that Dougz doesn't want any part of things.

There are a lot of possible alternates that could be explored in that case, but I'd rather wait to see if Goko is on board before speculating. So I think a better way to phrase it to Goko might be: "Solution: Allow an alternate version of Dominion online, but only available to those who have already purchased all the sets on Goko." This way we have options.

[sudgy]

Actually, Goko would make even more money because I haven't paid for Goko yet, but probably would if it meant I could play on iso or something else that's good.

[TheExpressicist]

I don't really mind that you contacted Donald, but:

I did see the two posts by Kirian and LastFootnote, and neither of them said "Don't contact Donald." That said, I missed that post by DG. Good catch.

To be fair, it was the 4th post of the entire thread (my initial post was #64). And I did specify... "and told me I shouldn't talk to him." (So far I have yet to find anyone who specifically responded to me, telling me not to contact Donald). But I've never been one for loopholes. And at least that means LastFootnote's version of events wasn't entirely rooted in fiction. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it's the 2 hours of sleep that confused things.

So: LastFootnote, sorry for being unnecessarily dickish.

[TheExpressicist]

As a side note, I dug through Goko's code and it looks like it is written entirely in Javascript. This is problematic for a number of reasons. My fear now is that "fixing" Goko will necessitate an entire rewriting of the Dominion code to something more stable and server-side.

This article is fairly non-programmer-friendly which explains the limitations of Javascript: http://programming.oreilly.com/2013/07/javascript-is-way-too-slow-for-what.html

For the coders out there: http://sealedabstract.com/rants/why-mobile-web-apps-are-slow/

EDIT: Oh gosh. Since everything is handled client-side, it's extremely easy to alter certain things. See attachment:

[SCSN]

I can't imagine it being illegal for me to cut my own Dominion cards for my own use and play them with my friends, as long as I don't try to make money off of it.  What part could be illegal?

It's illegal because it's a copyright violation. You're making a copy of the card text and images (by printing them out) and you aren't licensed to do that. Pretty simple. It's the same reason it's illegal to torrent a book and print that out to read, even if it's just for your personal use.

Interestingly enough, under Dutch copyright law you are allowed to make/own one copy (and one copy only) of whatever copyrighted material you own, provided it's for personal use.

It's an old law and as far as I know (I'm not a lawyer) it hasn't really been updated in a long time and since people only ever get sued for very blatant violations there is little jurisprudence, but it supposedly extends to digital material as well, in the sense that owning a physical book makes it ok to either scan it or download the e-book version from an "illegal" filesharer. So my idea for a private server might actually be fully legal under Dutch copyright law.

[theory]

Why do you think it's written in js?  I'm not really much of an expert but I definitely do not think it is js.

[Witherweaver]

I can't imagine it being illegal for me to cut my own Dominion cards for my own use and play them with my friends, as long as I don't try to make money off of it.  What part could be illegal?

It's illegal because it's a copyright violation. You're making a copy of the card text and images (by printing them out) and you aren't licensed to do that. Pretty simple. It's the same reason it's illegal to torrent a book and print that out to read, even if it's just for your personal use.

I don't want to stray too far into RSP territory (too late?), but the basic idea of copyright is pretty obviously good, because it allows creators to be compensated by people who enjoy their creation. Without some form of copyright, it'd be nearly impossible to make a living as an author, for example. (Not that it's easy even now!) Where there's legitimate disagreement is in how long the copyright should last and what are the boundaries of fair use.

In the example you give above though, Dominion is a recent game (2008) and the entire game (except the rulebook) would be copied, so that's not a grey area at all.

So I find this kind of surprising; I never really bothered to pay attention to copyright laws.  What if you don't print them out put just paraphrase the card text and don't use the art? 

Well anyway, as many pointed out, further discussion is off topic, so maybe I'll make a post in the other forum. (I didn't know what RSP stood for until Theory linked it to the board.)  I find it interesting, though.

[TheExpressicist]

Why do you think it's written in js?  I'm not really much of an expert but I definitely do not think it is js.

http://play.goko.com/Dominion/CardBuilder/FS.CardBuilder.Data.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/CardBuilder/FS.CardBuilder.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/DominionClient.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/DominionGameClient.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/DominionUI.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/FS.DeckBuilder.Lib.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/FS.DeckBuilder.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/FSCards.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/dominionSetGenerator.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/dominionSetGeneratorData.js

and so on and so forth. There's about 35-40 scripts that it loads, all of which are javascript.

Of particular interest are CardBuilder.js which contains all the card data. Also, dominionSetGenerator.js which is literally just Wei-Hwa Huang's program from www.dominionsetgenerator.com . Note the term "beta"

[markusin]

Well anyway, as many pointed out, further discussion is off topic, so maybe I'll make a post in the other forum. (I didn't know what RSP stood for until Theory linked it to the board.)  I find it interesting, though.

Yes, I might check out this RSP section sometime. I also didn't know what it stood for until I tried the link.

[Witherweaver]

Why do you think it's written in js?  I'm not really much of an expert but I definitely do not think it is js.

http://play.goko.com/Dominion/CardBuilder/FS.CardBuilder.Data.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/CardBuilder/FS.CardBuilder.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/DominionClient.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/DominionGameClient.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/DominionUI.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/FS.DeckBuilder.Lib.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/FS.DeckBuilder.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/FSCards.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/dominionSetGenerator.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/dominionSetGeneratorData.js

and so on and so forth. There's about 35-40 scripts that it loads, all of which are javascript.

Of particular interest are CardBuilder.js which contains all the card data. Also, dominionSetGenerator.js which is literally just Wei-Hwa Huang's program from www.dominionsetgenerator.com . Note the term "beta"

So I hope someone can tell me that HACK is an acronym so that the comments starting with
\\HACK ...
are not really saying that the following code is a hack...

[GeoLib]

So why don't we propose this to Goko? Problem: We are frustrated by your online implementation of Dominion and you can't handle the server traffic (among other things). Solution: Allow the return of isotropic, but add a password protection and only invite people who have already purchased all the sets on Goko. This reduces their server traffic and makes us happy. It keeps the community alive, so there will actually be someone to play online Dominion if and when they actually fix it.

Out of all the plans that involve relaunching Isotropic, this one to me makes the most sense. It proposes a specific solution which is both logically feasible and ethically sound. And it's not a unilateral demand; it's a compromise that ostensibly benefits everyone involved. (It's logistically feasible because Goko owns the license and it's ethically sound as long as whoever is running the server upholds the promise to restrict it to those who have purchased all the sets through Goko.)

There's the issue though - it relies pretty heavily on Dougz' cooperation, and it also places an additional imposition on him. Goko would likely want some kind of contractual obligation to ensure people don't get to play it for free. And that's some treacherous territory to be getting into. That said, if he and Goko would be up for it, this plan seems to make the most sense. It would be wise though to contingency plan in the event that Dougz doesn't want any part of things.

There are a lot of possible alternates that could be explored in that case, but I'd rather wait to see if Goko is on board before speculating. So I think a better way to phrase it to Goko might be: "Solution: Allow an alternate version of Dominion online, but only available to those who have already purchased all the sets on Goko." This way we have options.

I agree. My optimal world involves DougZ reopening isotropic, but I would understand if he didn't want to do that. Another online implementation or someone else hosting Iso using DougZ's source code would also be good options. Are people on board with contacting RGG with this proposal? I don't want to do anything unilaterally (and I'm also not really sure about the best way to go about contacting them though I could probably figure it out). If someone else wants to conduct the actual correspondence that would be totally fine with me, especially since I'm currently trying to apply for about 10 different internships and spending way to much time on f.ds considering...

[TheExpressicist]

So I hope someone can tell me that HACK is an acronym so that the comments starting with
\\HACK ...
are not really saying that the following code is a hack...

Having All Copper Kills

[Voltaire]

Are people on board with contacting RGG with this proposal?

...no? They're just going to say no, or not bother to reply. I'd be much more interested in some sort of "Are you aware of the following problems with Goko" sort of message.

[GeoLib]

Are people on board with contacting RGG with this proposal?

...no? They're just going to say no, or not bother to reply. I'd be much more interested in some sort of "Are you aware of the following problems with Goko" sort of message.

Why? (are they just going to say no. The message could certainly include "Are you aware of the following problems," but why not also include some sort of solution?)

[Voltaire]

Because you're asking them to (presumably) violate a contract they signed. Why in the world would they do that?

As far as proposed solutions, the only one I can see (honestly) is RGG terminating their contract with Goko. Alternately they could demand certain performance metrics be met by Goko, but even if that happened I don't see Goko meeting them. And if they do that, they'll look for another developer, because online Dominion is a theoretically lucrative product.

Basically, the only productive thing I can see us as a community doing is constructively bringing to their attention how much Goko sucks, in case they aren't aware. They need to take it from there, really.

[theory]

Why do you think it's written in js?  I'm not really much of an expert but I definitely do not think it is js.

http://play.goko.com/Dominion/CardBuilder/FS.CardBuilder.Data.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/CardBuilder/FS.CardBuilder.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/DominionClient.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/DominionGameClient.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/DominionUI.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/FS.DeckBuilder.Lib.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/FS.DeckBuilder.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/FSCards.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/dominionSetGenerator.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/dominionSetGeneratorData.js

and so on and so forth. There's about 35-40 scripts that it loads, all of which are javascript.

Of particular interest are CardBuilder.js which contains all the card data. Also, dominionSetGenerator.js which is literally just Wei-Hwa Huang's program from www.dominionsetgenerator.com . Note the term "beta"

This is ... pretty funny.  I retract my previous statement.

The //HACK is not such a big deal, every software project does that and anyone who tells you they've never done something similar is lying.

[theory]

Because you're asking them to (presumably) violate a contract they signed. Why in the world would they do that?

As far as proposed solutions, the only one I can see (honestly) is RGG terminating their contract with Goko. Alternately they could demand certain performance metrics be met by Goko, but even if that happened I don't see Goko meeting them. And if they do that, they'll look for another developer, because online Dominion is a theoretically lucrative product.

One would typically expect contracts like the RGG - Goko contract to contain clauses requiring performance standards.  The fact that they haven't been triggered implies one of several possibilities: 1) they are no such clauses; 2) Goko has not breached those performance standards; 3) RGG is unaware that Goko has breached those standards; 4) Goko has not yet had enough time to breach those standards; 5) RGG is unwilling to trigger the clauses; or 6) they have been triggered, and we just haven't heard anything about it.

[TheExpressicist]

Are people on board with contacting RGG with this proposal?

...no? They're just going to say no, or not bother to reply. I'd be much more interested in some sort of "Are you aware of the following problems with Goko" sort of message.

In this situation, "No" is an acceptable outcome because there is so little opportunity cost associated with simply sending an email to Goko. This could literally be done in 5 minutes.

Unlike other "plans" which require the cooperation and backing of the community, along with significant potential negative repercussions. Furthermore, this is an offer of compromise which benefits Goko. Essentially we're offering them free servers and hosting. It's not a unilateral demand coupled with a toothless threat. And if they say "No" or don't respond, that's fine. On to the next plan.

In fact, I'll make it easy. All someone has to do is just send the following email:

"Hi, I am a representative of the online Dominion community. I'm sure you have heard many of the complaints that have been leveled at Goko in the recent weeks. I have a potential solution that would still allow Goko to generate revenue, take much of the load off Goko's servers, and satisfy the Dominion online community.

The suggestion would be for you to offer limited license of Dominion online to a group who would host an alternate version of Dominion online on a separate server. The condition of this license would be that only people who have paid for the Goko Ultra Pack would have access to this server. Or, if there is an alternate pricing structure that would be preferable, we would certainly be amenable to that as well.

This would encourage people to continue buying Goko products so that they could access a function online version of Dominion, and it would potentially take a large amount of load off of Goko's servers.

Please let me know if you'd be amenable to this plan.

Sincerely,
*insert name here*"

The CEO of Goko's email is katiewc@goko.com
Their publically posted emails are: devrel@goko.com,
 info@goko.com,
 bizdev@goko.com

Who wants to step up to the plate and send the email?

[TheExpressicist]

Because you're asking them to (presumably) violate a contract they signed. Why in the world would they do that?

As far as proposed solutions, the only one I can see (honestly) is RGG terminating their contract with Goko. Alternately they could demand certain performance metrics be met by Goko, but even if that happened I don't see Goko meeting them. And if they do that, they'll look for another developer, because online Dominion is a theoretically lucrative product.

Basically, the only productive thing I can see us as a community doing is constructively bringing to their attention how much Goko sucks, in case they aren't aware. They need to take it from there, really.

This is why I contacted Donald, so we didn't have to speculate about the nature of the contract. His words: "I gave RGG an exclusive license to digital Dominion. So, anything to negotiate would happen between whoever and RGG; I'm not even involved. I suspect RGG gave Goko an exclusive license for whatever time period, and if so there's no-one to negotiate with except Goko."

So, there's still some speculation there because he doesn't know for certain, but I'm willing to ride with his suspicion that Goko has a temporary exclusive license. Especially because there is little to no downside to sending a simple e-mail.

[TheExpressicist]

This is ... pretty funny.  I retract my previous statement.

The //HACK is not such a big deal, every software project does that and anyone who tells you they've never done something similar is lying.

The code comments read like a bad soap opera. You can almost hear the different voices of the various developers who worked on the project at certain points of time, complete with subtle insinuations about previous programmers' lack of coding ability, accusations, questioning why certain things are done certain ways... If it weren't so sad, it would be hilarious.