Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 ... 11  All

Author Topic: Petition for the return of Isotropic  (Read 94278 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11826
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12899
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #125 on: January 09, 2014, 10:45:05 am »
+3

That's like saying that contracts screw over humanity.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #126 on: January 09, 2014, 10:50:50 am »
0

Derivatives are tied to real stuff, and it's not just gambling.  Okay, yes, in some cases there is a lot of gambling going on, but in many cases they're fully justified.  Imagine, for instance, you are a farmer that grows corn.  Your profit (and livelihood) is entirely tied upon the price of corn.  You are naturally in a "gambling" position, because at the beginning of each harvest season you're betting that the price of corn after the harvest will be high enough to justify whatever overhead for growing it that you're putting into it in the present.  But if the price of corn were to fall dramatically after harvest season, you could face extreme (perhaps unrecoverable) losses.  So you can choose to hedge this bet by taking up an position in a derivatives contract.  This way you can essentially lock in a price for the future for some overhead cost.  Your overall potential profit will decrease, but your risk has decreased.  It's a pretty sensible thing to do and there is a natural need for it.

To sustain what I said earlier about not hijacking the thread, I will only say this: I disagree and I am glad that you put your arguments in a clear way, because I do understand them.

Also, I hate Goko because they took away my enjoyment of playing Dominion online. I never paid because they never showed that they could provide a nice service consistently. I would pay to someone who provides such a service. I would pay Isotropic and I would pay any other company that gives a valuable service. I will continue to try to play for free on Goko until they either deserve my money (a lot would need to change) or the discontinue the possibility to do it.

I agree with the fact that there is nothing anyone can do if someone codes and runs a Dominion online server hosted outside the US and perferrably outside the EU as well. If its peer-to-peer, it would be even better. The music and film industry spent a lot of money and time that all the people interested in Dominion do not have to shut down unlicensed downloads and could not. Photocopied books exist everywhere despite the laws against them, and even more so with PDF books donwloadable from unofficial sites. Some things you just cannot stop.
Logged

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6476
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7868
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #127 on: January 09, 2014, 11:01:21 am »
0

Derivatives are tied to real stuff, and it's not just gambling.  Okay, yes, in some cases there is a lot of gambling going on, but in many cases they're fully justified.  Imagine, for instance, you are a farmer that grows corn.  Your profit (and livelihood) is entirely tied upon the price of corn.  You are naturally in a "gambling" position, because at the beginning of each harvest season you're betting that the price of corn after the harvest will be high enough to justify whatever overhead for growing it that you're putting into it in the present.  But if the price of corn were to fall dramatically after harvest season, you could face extreme (perhaps unrecoverable) losses.  So you can choose to hedge this bet by taking up an position in a derivatives contract.  This way you can essentially lock in a price for the future for some overhead cost.  Your overall potential profit will decrease, but your risk has decreased.  It's a pretty sensible thing to do and there is a natural need for it.

To sustain what I said earlier about not hijacking the thread, I will only say this: I disagree and I am glad that you put your arguments in a clear way, because I do understand them.

Okay good point about hijacking. 
Logged

Stealth Tomato

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 507
  • Dorkneel
  • Respect: +480
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #128 on: January 09, 2014, 11:17:12 am »
+9

To put to bed some of the speculation, here is my correspondence with Donald (reposted with his permission)

Quote from: Donald
Quote from: TheExpressicist
My question for you is twofold: firstly, as the creator of Dominion, would you take exception to someone creating and hosting an unlicensed version of Dominion online? And secondly, as a businessman (and presumably bound by various contracts and such), are there any legal or contractual or licensing issues that would prevent such an effort from coming to fruition?

I gave RGG an exclusive license to digital Dominion. So, anything to negotiate would happen between whoever and RGG; I'm not even involved. I suspect RGG gave Goko an exclusive license for whatever time period, and if so there's no-one to negotiate with except Goko. You could try to get RGG to tell you when that contract expires and to convince them not to stay with Goko, but, despite all the problems with Goko, switching to someone else would be real work and have other issues.

It is illegal to make even a free version of someone else's thing without their permission, that seems obvious. I am not too interested in discussing legal stuff; it always tends towards, how much can we screw you over without getting sued?

My advice is, make your own game. And not just some awful Dominion rip-off; make a new game that is inspired by Dominion but actually a new game, like A Few Acres of Snow, or Eminent Domain.

I think that for the moment it still appears like online Dominion could rake in cash someday. As long as that's true there will be people interested in taking over Goko and trying their hand at it. One day those people may succeed; that's your best hope for online Dominion in the short term.

And that's going on as we speak. You say "Goko" as if it's a group that's been with the project from day one, but people have come and gone, the people working on Goko and in charge of it today were not there as recently as a month ago (I don't have an exact date). I have no special reason to believe the current guys are bad so far; I can only wait and see if things start improving or not.

I think that pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of Dougz reviving Isotropic. And it definitely puts the nail in the coffin of creating an Isotropic clone.

It also addresses the issue of licensing. RGG is the exclusive licenseholder, with Goko likely being a temporary exclusive licenseholder.

Oh good, so we did decide to waste his time on this again. I continue to be surprised at his willingness to be civil to people who are beating the everloving fuck out of a dead horse, where that dead horse is "Hi, I'd like to know under what circumstances you would tolerate me blatantly ripping off your signature game online."
Logged

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6476
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7868
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #129 on: January 09, 2014, 11:30:49 am »
+2

To put to bed some of the speculation, here is my correspondence with Donald (reposted with his permission)

Quote from: Donald
Quote from: TheExpressicist
My question for you is twofold: firstly, as the creator of Dominion, would you take exception to someone creating and hosting an unlicensed version of Dominion online? And secondly, as a businessman (and presumably bound by various contracts and such), are there any legal or contractual or licensing issues that would prevent such an effort from coming to fruition?

I gave RGG an exclusive license to digital Dominion. So, anything to negotiate would happen between whoever and RGG; I'm not even involved. I suspect RGG gave Goko an exclusive license for whatever time period, and if so there's no-one to negotiate with except Goko. You could try to get RGG to tell you when that contract expires and to convince them not to stay with Goko, but, despite all the problems with Goko, switching to someone else would be real work and have other issues.

It is illegal to make even a free version of someone else's thing without their permission, that seems obvious. I am not too interested in discussing legal stuff; it always tends towards, how much can we screw you over without getting sued?

My advice is, make your own game. And not just some awful Dominion rip-off; make a new game that is inspired by Dominion but actually a new game, like A Few Acres of Snow, or Eminent Domain.

I think that for the moment it still appears like online Dominion could rake in cash someday. As long as that's true there will be people interested in taking over Goko and trying their hand at it. One day those people may succeed; that's your best hope for online Dominion in the short term.

And that's going on as we speak. You say "Goko" as if it's a group that's been with the project from day one, but people have come and gone, the people working on Goko and in charge of it today were not there as recently as a month ago (I don't have an exact date). I have no special reason to believe the current guys are bad so far; I can only wait and see if things start improving or not.

I think that pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of Dougz reviving Isotropic. And it definitely puts the nail in the coffin of creating an Isotropic clone.

It also addresses the issue of licensing. RGG is the exclusive licenseholder, with Goko likely being a temporary exclusive licenseholder.

Oh good, so we did decide to waste his time on this again. I continue to be surprised at his willingness to be civil to people who are beating the everloving fuck out of a dead horse, where that dead horse is "Hi, I'd like to know under what circumstances you would tolerate me blatantly ripping off your signature game online."

The situation doesn't seem that way to me.  The situation seems more like, you have a bunch of people that really like this game and think it's great.  They have spent money on it, and they would be willing to spend more money on a viable way to play it (online) in the future.  Such a viable way does not exist, so people are looking to find solutions. 

I actually don't see how how making an online version of Dominion that doesn't charge money would be ripping off at all, actually.  It's simply an implementation for use within a community.  If it were marketed to make money, then I would see a violation.
Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2860
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #130 on: January 09, 2014, 11:53:07 am »
0

Firstly, the shutting of the forums was a joke.
In context, no, it wasn't a joke.  He suggested shutting down the forums for a couple days.  If he wanted to make a joke he would use hyperbole and go for a month.
Logged

Polk5440

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1708
  • Respect: +1788
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #131 on: January 09, 2014, 12:09:42 pm »
0

RSP, please.
Logged

BraveBear

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 107
  • Respect: +97
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #132 on: January 09, 2014, 01:07:35 pm »
+13

Hello

Not that this thread needs another person lashing out at goko, however I've come out of years of lurking to add my support.

I play IRL every week, have been for 2 years now.  Love the forum and its members and have really sharpened my game because of all of you and your insight.

I loved Isotropic and stopped playing online when it was shut down.  I couldn't take it anymore and recently bought all the cards on goko a week or two ago.  I have obviously been frustrated with my decision to give goko my money especially when it seems I waited for the worst time to get back into dominion online.

Well I thought I had a point to this message but I don't have any computer/coding skills or legal advice.  I guess I was just inclined for you all to hear another voice.  I really don't want online dominion to fade away.  Not just because I love the game but I have really enjoyed this forum and would hate to see it fade too....

-Bear
Logged

cluckyb

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 215
  • Respect: +169
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #133 on: January 09, 2014, 01:19:09 pm »
+1

The situation doesn't seem that way to me.  The situation seems more like, you have a bunch of people that really like this game and think it's great.  They have spent money on it, and they would be willing to spend more money on a viable way to play it (online) in the future.  Such a viable way does not exist, so people are looking to find solutions. 

I actually don't see how how making an online version of Dominion that doesn't charge money would be ripping off at all, actually.  It's simply an implementation for use within a community.  If it were marketed to make money, then I would see a violation.

The first half is all reasonable and cool. The issue is that there aren't any great solutions beyond reaching out to RGG.

But saying "I don't see how creating a free version of your game for people to be able to play without giving you money isn't ripping you off" is completely ridiculous. Sure you can try and argue that a free online implementation causes more physical sales, but it isn't your IP so isn't your call to make.
Logged

TheExpressicist

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 200
  • Respect: +203
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #134 on: January 09, 2014, 01:37:38 pm »
0

Oh good, so we did decide to waste his time on this again. I continue to be surprised at his willingness to be civil to people who are beating the everloving fuck out of a dead horse, where that dead horse is "Hi, I'd like to know under what circumstances you would tolerate me blatantly ripping off your signature game online."

Granted I'm always amused by the lengths people will go to and the contrivances they will create in order to feel even a modicum of superiority over a stranger.

But man, this is a strettttch. Nice try though.

Logged

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6476
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7868
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #135 on: January 09, 2014, 01:41:02 pm »
0

The situation doesn't seem that way to me.  The situation seems more like, you have a bunch of people that really like this game and think it's great.  They have spent money on it, and they would be willing to spend more money on a viable way to play it (online) in the future.  Such a viable way does not exist, so people are looking to find solutions. 

I actually don't see how how making an online version of Dominion that doesn't charge money would be ripping off at all, actually.  It's simply an implementation for use within a community.  If it were marketed to make money, then I would see a violation.

The first half is all reasonable and cool. The issue is that there aren't any great solutions beyond reaching out to RGG.

But saying "I don't see how creating a free version of your game for people to be able to play without giving you money isn't ripping you off" is completely ridiculous. Sure you can try and argue that a free online implementation causes more physical sales, but it isn't your IP so isn't your call to make.

But the thing is this: either the free version is competitive with the official version, or it is not.  If it is competitive with the official version, then the official version has to improve to make people want to spend money on it.  If it is not competitive with the official version, then people will pay money for the official version. 

I can't see how someone creating their own version of something for their own personal use is a violation.  Like I mentioned before, we could all cut out our own Dominion cards out of paper/cardboard and play a homemade version.  (Notably, we don't do this, because it's just more fun to play with the real stuff.)  I don't see how this is a violation, either legally or morally.  Of course an online version can have a much greater impact, and one would probably argue that's where the difference is, but fundamentally it seems the same idea.

To me, "ripping someone off" has to be taking someone's idea and selling it as your own, for profit.  I don't see simply taking someone's idea and using it as the same thing.. because it's a good idea, so it should be used.  It just shouldn't be stolen.  The distinction for me is between use for profit and just-for-personal use.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10727
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #136 on: January 09, 2014, 01:46:32 pm »
+3

But putting up a free server is not "just-for-personal use". The fact that it's also not for profit is immeterial.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 01:56:24 pm by LastFootnote »
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10727
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #137 on: January 09, 2014, 01:50:53 pm »
+1

Oh good, so we did decide to waste his time on this again. I continue to be surprised at his willingness to be civil to people who are beating the everloving fuck out of a dead horse, where that dead horse is "Hi, I'd like to know under what circumstances you would tolerate me blatantly ripping off your signature game online."

Granted I'm always amused by the lengths people will go to and the contrivances they will create in order to feel even a modicum of superiority over a stranger.

But man, this is a strettttch. Nice try though.

Dude, you came here all like, "We should bug Donald about this." And we were all like, "No, he has no control over it and we already know what he'll say." And then you did it anyway. So don't give us your snide "superiority over a stranger" bullshit. You're the one who didn't listen to reason.

In other news, I need to stop posting on 2 hours of sleep.
Logged

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6476
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7868
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #138 on: January 09, 2014, 02:00:46 pm »
0

But putting up a free server is not "just-for-personal use". The fact that it's also not for profit it immeterial.

So "personal" is misleading in this context.. I mean not for sale to the public.  But if you made a version on your local PC and didn't make it public, just for you to play (say against a bot), you probably wouldn't consider this a problem because it doesn't compete with an official online implementation. (Or I could be wrong on this point, but continuing...) If you then decided you wanted to play against your roommate and extended  the code to let you have two real players, this still wouldn't compete.  If you extended it further and hosted LAN parties with your friends, then extended it further hosted it online.. at what point does the violation come?  I'm under the impression that the (perceived) violation is not from the principle of someone implementing their own version of the game, but rather from the potential loss of profit from the official online implementation that could be caused by a free server.

But then we're back to my other point.. if the official online version is vastly inferior to a free version, then this should force the official version to become better so that people will be willing to pay for it.  If no one is willing to pay for it, no matter how good it is, then it doesn't seem like a money-making enterprise anyway.
Logged

TheExpressicist

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 200
  • Respect: +203
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #139 on: January 09, 2014, 02:04:02 pm »
0

Oh good, so we did decide to waste his time on this again. I continue to be surprised at his willingness to be civil to people who are beating the everloving fuck out of a dead horse, where that dead horse is "Hi, I'd like to know under what circumstances you would tolerate me blatantly ripping off your signature game online."

Granted I'm always amused by the lengths people will go to and the contrivances they will create in order to feel even a modicum of superiority over a stranger.

But man, this is a strettttch. Nice try though.

Dude, you came here all like, "We should bug Donald about this." And we were all like, "No, he has no control over it and we already know what he'll say." And then you did it anyway. So don't give us your snide "superiority over a stranger" bullshit. You're the one who didn't listen to reason.

In other news, I need to stop posting on 2 hours of sleep.

Interesting. If I'm not mistaken, that actually is not true in the slightest. At least Stealth Tomato's was a vague insinuation rather than complete fiction.

But tell you what. Maybe I'm wrong. Show me where in the thread (before the point where I reported my correspondence) where someone predicted what Donald would say, and told me I shouldn't talk  to him. If you do, I will apologize whole heatedly to both you Stealth Tomato and confirm I am a royal jackass.
Logged

Warfreak2

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1149
  • KC->KC->[Scavenger, Scavenger, Lookout]
  • Respect: +1324
    • View Profile
    • Music what I do
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #140 on: January 09, 2014, 02:07:59 pm »
+3

You are missing the somewhat obvious point that a free server is better than an official server simply because you don't have to pay for it.
Logged
If the only engine on the board is Procession->Conspirator, I will play it.

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6476
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7868
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #141 on: January 09, 2014, 02:13:09 pm »
0

You are missing the somewhat obvious point that a free server is better than an official server simply because you don't have to pay for it.

Sure, but that wouldn't be the only difference---Goko has an entirely different look-and-feel than Isotropic did and is functionally different.  If the issues with Goko were resolved and Isotropic were still live, many people would probably still pay for Goko rather than go to Isotropic.  Free things don't always make paid-for things obsolete.  Unix is free, but a lot of us use Windows.

Additionally, it's in our best interest to spend money for a product that we like, because it helps to ensure that similar products will continue to come out.  When I find music that I like, I prefer to buy it instead of trying to download it somewhere for free.  I would feel basically the same about games.  Plus, I just like owning it.
Logged

SCSN

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2227
  • Respect: +7140
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #142 on: January 09, 2014, 02:15:22 pm »
+2

Someone explain to me how a private server for people who already paid for Goko constitutes ripping anyone off.

Charging money money for an isotropic clone hosted at fuckgoko.com, yeah, that would be a bit over the edge, even though I'd still totally pay for it lol.
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3846
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2437
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #143 on: January 09, 2014, 02:19:25 pm »
0

As the license holders, can't Goko sue for lost profits? They could win or lose such a lawsuit.  Either way, being sued is not something anyone hosting online Dominion should have to face, especially not dougZ. I would think the threshold for when someone can be sued for an online version of Dominion is when it can be argued that the lost profit potential is considerably larger than the cost of the lawsuit.

Hosting A server from some safe haven, well then you just come off as very malicious to the official online Dominion platform and all it's supporters.
Logged

elahrairah13

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 81
  • Respect: +73
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #144 on: January 09, 2014, 02:29:32 pm »
+1

I generally favor not bothering Donald about Goko, but that seems like it was a fairly useful discussion, and I do think it confirms where people should go next if they want to pursue trying to take Dominion from Goko - to RGG. To find out more about the contract. Is it an exclusive license? (I cannot imagine that it is not). When does it expire? If it expires soon, have there been talks about renewing it? (do they have guaranteed renewal rights or something similar?)

What's probably the MOST important thing of all that is (politely) being in RGG's ear that you're unhappy with Goko and you'd prefer to see the Dominion license elsewhere, even if it means paying for it again.

If RGG is open to selling the license elsewhere after Goko's expires, that might be where the kickstarter to buy the license and it make it freely available best comes into play. But all that's probably for naught if Goko has 10-15 years left.

As an aside - putting up something like isotropic while Goko is still live should be viewed as a non-starter. Even putting aside the moral dilemma, it's a violation of US intellectual property laws (I cannot speak to international copyright) and would likely result in legal action.
Logged

GeoLib

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 965
  • Respect: +1265
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #145 on: January 09, 2014, 02:38:36 pm »
0

Witherweaver: If you're distributing something for free that people are trying to charge money for, it is going to be very difficult for them to compete. Maybe you say that you like buying music you like to support the creators, but lots of people don't do that. Restarting Iso would definitely be a violation of intellectual property law and of DougZ's agreement with Donald and all that.

I think SCSN's idea of a private server that only people who have all the sets on goko could access might not be a bad one. In fact, this could be something we mention to RGG/goko when we contact them. And I really think that contacting RGG has to be the next step.
Logged
"All advice is awful"
 —Count Grishnakh

GeoLib

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 965
  • Respect: +1265
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #146 on: January 09, 2014, 02:43:30 pm »
+4

Oh good, so we did decide to waste his time on this again. I continue to be surprised at his willingness to be civil to people who are beating the everloving fuck out of a dead horse, where that dead horse is "Hi, I'd like to know under what circumstances you would tolerate me blatantly ripping off your signature game online."

Granted I'm always amused by the lengths people will go to and the contrivances they will create in order to feel even a modicum of superiority over a stranger.

But man, this is a strettttch. Nice try though.

Dude, you came here all like, "We should bug Donald about this." And we were all like, "No, he has no control over it and we already know what he'll say." And then you did it anyway. So don't give us your snide "superiority over a stranger" bullshit. You're the one who didn't listen to reason.

In other news, I need to stop posting on 2 hours of sleep.

Interesting. If I'm not mistaken, that actually is not true in the slightest. At least Stealth Tomato's was a vague insinuation rather than complete fiction.

But tell you what. Maybe I'm wrong. Show me where in the thread (before the point where I reported my correspondence) where someone predicted what Donald would say, and told me I shouldn't talk  to him. If you do, I will apologize whole heatedly to both you Stealth Tomato and confirm I am a royal jackass.

I don't really mind that you contacted Donald, but:

I wouldn't drag Donald X. into this. He's a game designer, I'm guessing he doesn't like politics and commercial stuff, and the Goko contract is presumably with Rio Grande. Even though Goko is a lame duck it could still be better from Rio Grande's point of view to keep a revenue stream from Goko than have a fight with them over the rights. For all we know, RGG might have better partners waiting in the wings if Goko goes bust.

1.  Just because Donald has expressed his displeasure with Goko doesn't mean he has the ability to renegotiate RGG's contracts with Goko.  There is, as far as I know, no direct business relationship between Donald X and Goko.

Dude, anybody creating an isotropic clone has the potential to be sued. Donald certainly isn't going to condone or assist such a plan, and neither is dougz. Nor should they.
Logged
"All advice is awful"
 —Count Grishnakh

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6476
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7868
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #147 on: January 09, 2014, 02:51:14 pm »
0

Witherweaver: If you're distributing something for free that people are trying to charge money for, it is going to be very difficult for them to compete. Maybe you say that you like buying music you like to support the creators, but lots of people don't do that. Restarting Iso would definitely be a violation of intellectual property law and of DougZ's agreement with Donald and all that.

I understand this point, but I don't actually agree with it.  I guess it's the same kind of question around Napster, and I didn't really buy that Napster was wrong either.  It ultimately feels very non-capitalistic to me. 

Of course restarting Iso itself isn't really the question.. as far as I know, DougZ had an agreement, and that is an agreement he should not back out of (morally).  The question I was considering is someone creating their own site, with their own code that they write.  I don't know what the intellectual property laws actually say.  Many people are saying that making such a site is in violation of these laws, and if that's true than the issue is only academic.  (Well, for me it's really only academic anyway.)

If you're distributing something for free that people are trying to charge money for, and what  you're distributing for free is just as good or even better than what people are trying to charge money for, then I don't think they should be competing.  This seems to indicate that they are unable to compete, and they shouldn't be kept around just for that reason.

I do not think that a fully competent version of Goko would fail because of a free Dominion implementation.  I think such a Goko would offer enough so that people would still pay for and use it.  I think it's lack of functionality that is making Goko trend downards, and it's doing it without any free implementation against which it has to compete. 

Quote
I think SCSN's idea of a private server that only people who have all the sets on goko could access might not be a bad one. In fact, this could be something we mention to RGG/goko when we contact them. And I really think that contacting RGG has to be the next step.

Is it actually legal?
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3846
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2437
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #148 on: January 09, 2014, 03:29:27 pm »
+2

Someone explain to me how a private server for people who already paid for Goko constitutes ripping anyone off.
But even if this sort of thing could happen, is it really in Goko's interest to have the people who purchased all the sets leave off to play on some other site, where they can't play games with people who haven't purchased the sets but would be willing to if their Goko experience was good?

My answer is yes, because the Goko servers currently can't handle all those players playing on their site without slowdowns. I wish I was joking.
Logged

blueblimp

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2849
  • Respect: +1560
    • View Profile
Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #149 on: January 09, 2014, 03:42:25 pm »
+2

I can't imagine it being illegal for me to cut my own Dominion cards for my own use and play them with my friends, as long as I don't try to make money off of it.  What part could be illegal?
It's illegal because it's a copyright violation. You're making a copy of the card text and images (by printing them out) and you aren't licensed to do that. Pretty simple. It's the same reason it's illegal to torrent a book and print that out to read, even if it's just for your personal use.

I don't want to stray too far into RSP territory (too late?), but the basic idea of copyright is pretty obviously good, because it allows creators to be compensated by people who enjoy their creation. Without some form of copyright, it'd be nearly impossible to make a living as an author, for example. (Not that it's easy even now!) Where there's legitimate disagreement is in how long the copyright should last and what are the boundaries of fair use.

In the example you give above though, Dominion is a recent game (2008) and the entire game (except the rulebook) would be copied, so that's not a grey area at all.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 ... 11  All
 

Page created in 0.121 seconds with 21 queries.