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Author Topic: Petition for the return of Isotropic  (Read 92525 times)

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hsiale

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #75 on: January 08, 2014, 05:53:17 am »
+6

Nor are we likely to freely give Goko our time or money in order to fix their service that we've already paid for.
Really? Creating the Salvager seems to fit the description quite well and it's not a closed plugin available only to forum members, every Goko player can install it.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2014, 08:20:50 am »
+3

I keep hearing this sentiment that Goko's problem is one of finances. On a long-term basis that may prove to be true. But for today, as I see it, finances isn't the problem, competency is, or just giving a shit is. When the cash was flowing fast and furious it was still a completely mediocre product full of unacceptable security holes and archaic graphics. One might argue that finances can buy competency but I don't see Goko wanting to waste money on talent and I don't see them giving a shit about the product once a baseline amount of capital has been captured.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2014, 08:38:49 am »
0

Nor are we likely to freely give Goko our time or money in order to fix their service that we've already paid for.
Really? Creating the Salvager seems to fit the description quite well and it's not a closed plugin available only to forum members, every Goko player can install it.

That's not the same at all. As far as I know, Andrew did not first approach Goko and say, "Hey, I'd like to provide you with some free labor. Where should I start?"
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #78 on: January 08, 2014, 12:26:57 pm »
0

As an aside, if you make a slightly modified Dominion with Silver at 4$, you can play Lab with zero actions, you immediately win upon obtaining 36 points, etc, slight changes that preserve the feel of the game but legally make it untargetable, you can avoid even a C&D and there will be a deckbuilding game on the internet that you can play without paying Sirlin's paypal.
(You could actually change it even less, they say, but I like the safe side)

Aren't they different enough from actual Dominion that making normal Dominion would be fine? ;)
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2014, 12:39:57 pm »
0

As an aside, if you make a slightly modified Dominion with Silver at 4$, you can play Lab with zero actions, you immediately win upon obtaining 36 points, etc, slight changes that preserve the feel of the game but legally make it untargetable, you can avoid even a C&D and there will be a deckbuilding game on the internet that you can play without paying Sirlin's paypal.
(You could actually change it even less, they say, but I like the safe side)

Aren't they different enough from actual Dominion that making normal Dominion would be fine? ;)

I can't make sense of your statement.

Technically you can rename every card and just do Dominion, the way U.S. law works, but the court of public opinion might go a bit easier if the game isn't a pure clone.  If I ended up contributing a couple thousand lines of code, I would want something somewhat new to be happening, anyhow.
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #80 on: January 08, 2014, 12:46:43 pm »
+12

To put to bed some of the speculation, here is my correspondence with Donald (reposted with his permission)

Quote from: Donald
Quote from: TheExpressicist
My question for you is twofold: firstly, as the creator of Dominion, would you take exception to someone creating and hosting an unlicensed version of Dominion online? And secondly, as a businessman (and presumably bound by various contracts and such), are there any legal or contractual or licensing issues that would prevent such an effort from coming to fruition?

I gave RGG an exclusive license to digital Dominion. So, anything to negotiate would happen between whoever and RGG; I'm not even involved. I suspect RGG gave Goko an exclusive license for whatever time period, and if so there's no-one to negotiate with except Goko. You could try to get RGG to tell you when that contract expires and to convince them not to stay with Goko, but, despite all the problems with Goko, switching to someone else would be real work and have other issues.

It is illegal to make even a free version of someone else's thing without their permission, that seems obvious. I am not too interested in discussing legal stuff; it always tends towards, how much can we screw you over without getting sued?

My advice is, make your own game. And not just some awful Dominion rip-off; make a new game that is inspired by Dominion but actually a new game, like A Few Acres of Snow, or Eminent Domain.

I think that for the moment it still appears like online Dominion could rake in cash someday. As long as that's true there will be people interested in taking over Goko and trying their hand at it. One day those people may succeed; that's your best hope for online Dominion in the short term.

And that's going on as we speak. You say "Goko" as if it's a group that's been with the project from day one, but people have come and gone, the people working on Goko and in charge of it today were not there as recently as a month ago (I don't have an exact date). I have no special reason to believe the current guys are bad so far; I can only wait and see if things start improving or not.

I think that pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of Dougz reviving Isotropic. And it definitely puts the nail in the coffin of creating an Isotropic clone.

It also addresses the issue of licensing. RGG is the exclusive licenseholder, with Goko likely being a temporary exclusive licenseholder.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 12:49:03 pm by TheExpressicist »
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #81 on: January 08, 2014, 12:58:27 pm »
0

Nor are we likely to freely give Goko our time or money in order to fix their service that we've already paid for.
Really? Creating the Salvager seems to fit the description quite well and it's not a closed plugin available only to forum members, every Goko player can install it.

That's not the same at all. As far as I know, Andrew did not first approach Goko and say, "Hey, I'd like to provide you with some free labor. Where should I start?"

Incidentally, although Andrew might not have, that is the approach I am taking (among a few others).
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Kuildeous

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #83 on: January 08, 2014, 02:03:14 pm »
0

I don't exactly know if this would work (because I don't really know if it fits within this domain), but using kickstarter would allow people to pledge money and unless the goal is met have no obligation to pay anything.

I suspected this thread would be amusing. It did not disappoint.

The idea of raising money to buy the license is interesting. If anyone wants to seriously try the Kickstarter idea, keep in mind that KS takes a portion of the money when the goal is met. If the goal is met and Goko says no, then what do you do with the money? Return it to the contributors? But then you have to take out KS's cut.

While the KS is intriguing, the first step would be to find out how much Goko would sell the license.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #84 on: January 08, 2014, 02:59:08 pm »
0

As an aside, if you make a slightly modified Dominion with Silver at 4$, you can play Lab with zero actions, you immediately win upon obtaining 36 points, etc, slight changes that preserve the feel of the game but legally make it untargetable, you can avoid even a C&D and there will be a deckbuilding game on the internet that you can play without paying Sirlin's paypal.
(You could actually change it even less, they say, but I like the safe side)

Aren't they different enough from actual Dominion that making normal Dominion would be fine? ;)

I can't make sense of your statement.

Usually, if I have a smiley in my statement, you can ignore it.  Or try to laugh at it.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

GeoLib

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #85 on: January 08, 2014, 04:47:29 pm »
0

To put to bed some of the speculation, here is my correspondence with Donald (reposted with his permission)

Quote from: Donald
Quote from: TheExpressicist
My question for you is twofold: firstly, as the creator of Dominion, would you take exception to someone creating and hosting an unlicensed version of Dominion online? And secondly, as a businessman (and presumably bound by various contracts and such), are there any legal or contractual or licensing issues that would prevent such an effort from coming to fruition?

I gave RGG an exclusive license to digital Dominion. So, anything to negotiate would happen between whoever and RGG; I'm not even involved. I suspect RGG gave Goko an exclusive license for whatever time period, and if so there's no-one to negotiate with except Goko. You could try to get RGG to tell you when that contract expires and to convince them not to stay with Goko, but, despite all the problems with Goko, switching to someone else would be real work and have other issues.

It is illegal to make even a free version of someone else's thing without their permission, that seems obvious. I am not too interested in discussing legal stuff; it always tends towards, how much can we screw you over without getting sued?

My advice is, make your own game. And not just some awful Dominion rip-off; make a new game that is inspired by Dominion but actually a new game, like A Few Acres of Snow, or Eminent Domain.

I think that for the moment it still appears like online Dominion could rake in cash someday. As long as that's true there will be people interested in taking over Goko and trying their hand at it. One day those people may succeed; that's your best hope for online Dominion in the short term.

And that's going on as we speak. You say "Goko" as if it's a group that's been with the project from day one, but people have come and gone, the people working on Goko and in charge of it today were not there as recently as a month ago (I don't have an exact date). I have no special reason to believe the current guys are bad so far; I can only wait and see if things start improving or not.

I think that pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of Dougz reviving Isotropic. And it definitely puts the nail in the coffin of creating an Isotropic clone.

It also addresses the issue of licensing. RGG is the exclusive licenseholder, with Goko likely being a temporary exclusive licenseholder.

While this response is nice (in that it's good to hear from Donald), I don't think it's really new information at all. This is exactly the state of affairs I expected. I think that messages to RGG and Goko demanding/requesting (somewhere along that spectrum) that they permit the return of isotropic until goko Dominion is a functional product have the potential for being effective. I think that this could work well with Kirian's suggested sit-in.
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #86 on: January 08, 2014, 05:02:37 pm »
0

While this response is nice (in that it's good to hear from Donald), I don't think it's really new information at all. This is exactly the state of affairs I expected. I think that messages to RGG and Goko demanding/requesting (somewhere along that spectrum) that they permit the return of isotropic until goko Dominion is a functional product have the potential for being effective. I think that this could work well with Kirian's suggested sit-in.

I refer you to the heretofore unanswered sentence from one of my posts. "What's the plan for their inevitable, maddeningly predictable response? "We understand your frustration, we are fixing things, things will get better, etc. etc.""
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GeoLib

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #87 on: January 08, 2014, 05:07:08 pm »
0

While this response is nice (in that it's good to hear from Donald), I don't think it's really new information at all. This is exactly the state of affairs I expected. I think that messages to RGG and Goko demanding/requesting (somewhere along that spectrum) that they permit the return of isotropic until goko Dominion is a functional product have the potential for being effective. I think that this could work well with Kirian's suggested sit-in.

I refer you to the heretofore unanswered sentence from one of my posts. "What's the plan for their inevitable, maddeningly predictable response? "We understand your frustration, we are fixing things, things will get better, etc. etc.""

Keep sitting in their lobbies. It's really terribly easy for us. All we need is a few browser tabs in the background
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #88 on: January 08, 2014, 05:27:00 pm »
+3

While this response is nice (in that it's good to hear from Donald), I don't think it's really new information at all. This is exactly the state of affairs I expected. I think that messages to RGG and Goko demanding/requesting (somewhere along that spectrum) that they permit the return of isotropic until goko Dominion is a functional product have the potential for being effective. I think that this could work well with Kirian's suggested sit-in.

I refer you to the heretofore unanswered sentence from one of my posts. "What's the plan for their inevitable, maddeningly predictable response? "We understand your frustration, we are fixing things, things will get better, etc. etc.""
Does that even really impact their revenues negatively?

Would be hilarious if an inactivity kick is added and is the swiftest most reliable feature they add.

Keep sitting in their lobbies. It's really terribly easy for us. All we need is a few browser tabs in the background

Does that even really impact their revenues negatively?

Would be hilarious if an inactivity kick is added and is the swiftest most reliable feature they add.
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #89 on: January 08, 2014, 05:39:11 pm »
+1

Keep sitting in their lobbies. It's really terribly easy for us. All we need is a few browser tabs in the background

Really? I suppose we will have to walk through this, step by step, to its logical endpoint.

At what point do you stop sitting in their lobbies?



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GeoLib

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2014, 05:44:52 pm »
+2

Keep sitting in their lobbies. It's really terribly easy for us. All we need is a few browser tabs in the background

Does that even really impact their revenues negatively?

Would be hilarious if an inactivity kick is added and is the swiftest most reliable feature they add.

I don't know, but I think it's worth further discussion.

Also, people keep saying that there's nothing more they want from those of us who've given them our money. I'm not sure that's entirely true. We are the people that introduce others to Dominion and make goko a place you can find interesting games. The fact that many are starting to give up on online Dominion entirely should matter to them.


Keep sitting in their lobbies. It's really terribly easy for us. All we need is a few browser tabs in the background

Really? I suppose we will have to walk through this, step by step, to its logical endpoint.

At what point do you stop sitting in their lobbies?

That seemed unnecessarily patronizing. Until we give up or they give us some form of functional online dominion. I don't by any means think this is guaranteed to work, but I think it's worth a shot. We can't actually force them to do anything, but we can still protest the fact that they're destroying online Dominion.
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2014, 05:58:27 pm »
+1

You want "destroyed", the past tense verb.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2014, 06:06:08 pm »
+1

That seemed unnecessarily patronizing. Until we give up or they give us some form of functional online dominion

The internet is a poor vehicle for delivering tone. The tone I was going for was "frustrated", because I was frustrated that it took six posts to answer my question. The exchange could have been as simple as:

Q: What's the plan for their inevitable... response ("We understand your frustration... etc. etc.")?
A: [Keep sitting in their lobbies] until we give up.

I will let that "plan" speak for itself.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2014, 06:16:41 pm »
0

Nice work, Expressicist.

Quote from: Donald
It is illegal to make even a free version of someone else's thing without their permission, that seems obvious. I am not too interested in discussing legal stuff; it always tends towards, how much can we screw you over without getting sued?

And it definitely puts the nail in the coffin of creating an Isotropic clone.

I have a few questions about this. As of now there are at least 3 working open source Dominion simulators, one of which has all but a handful of cards implemented. These are essentially free versions of Dominion that facilitate local bot-to-bot play. Are these simulators actually illegal but tolerated because they don't compete with Goko, or are they fully legal? In case of the latter, where is the legal line? With slight modification they could facilitate local human-to-bot play (in a sense they do already because you can program the bots) and local human-to-human play. With quite a bit more effort you can add online functionality, allowing bots and/or humans to compete remotely, which in principle is little different from playing locally, except that it has now become an alternative for Goko.

As for iso clones... I have no moral objections against running an invite-only server where access is granted only to those who own all the sets on Goko (this can in principle be deduced from the gamelogs). Goko won't even discover this unless someone rats.

And then there's the option of going fully rogue, either by hosting the game anonymously from a country where a US C&D order is meaningless, or through some sort of peer-to-peer architecture where, say, the current automatch pool and leaderboard are distributed across all players, and matched players connect directly to each other, storing the logs locally and communicating the result of their match only implicitly through their changed rating. Or maybe you can just use an automatch and leaderboard server, as long as the server doesn't contain the game logic it might well be that only the software would be illegal?
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #94 on: January 08, 2014, 06:18:05 pm »
+4

The internet is a poor vehicle for delivering tone.


"quote author=TheExpressicist "
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #95 on: January 08, 2014, 06:46:35 pm »
+8

I have a few questions about this. As of now there are at least 3 working open source Dominion simulators, one of which has all but a handful of cards implemented. These are essentially free versions of Dominion that facilitate local bot-to-bot play. Are these simulators actually illegal but tolerated because they don't compete with Goko, or are they fully legal? In case of the latter, where is the legal line? With slight modification they could facilitate local human-to-bot play (in a sense they do already because you can program the bots) and local human-to-human play. With quite a bit more effort you can add online functionality, allowing bots and/or humans to compete remotely, which in principle is little different from playing locally, except that it has now become an alternative for Goko.

As for iso clones... I have no moral objections against running an invite-only server where access is granted only to those who own all the sets on Goko (this can in principle be deduced from the gamelogs). Goko won't even discover this unless someone rats.

And then there's the option of going fully rogue, either by hosting the game anonymously from a country where a US C&D order is meaningless, or through some sort of peer-to-peer architecture where, say, the current automatch pool and leaderboard are distributed across all players, and matched players connect directly to each other, storing the logs locally and communicating the result of their match only implicitly through their changed rating. Or maybe you can just use an automatch and leaderboard server, as long as the server doesn't contain the game logic it might well be that only the software would be illegal?

Quote from: Donald
It is illegal to make even a free version of someone else's thing without their permission, that seems obvious. I am not too interested in discussing legal stuff; it always tends towards, how much can we screw you over without getting sued?

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #96 on: January 08, 2014, 07:06:35 pm »
0

That seemed unnecessarily patronizing. Until we give up or they give us some form of functional online dominion

The internet is a poor vehicle for delivering tone. The tone I was going for was "frustrated", because I was frustrated that it took six posts to answer my question. The exchange could have been as simple as:

Q: What's the plan for their inevitable... response ("We understand your frustration... etc. etc.")?
A: [Keep sitting in their lobbies] until we give up.

I will let that "plan" speak for itself.

Yeah, I know. That's why I said "seemed."

I disagree though that this plan is totally useless. We do in fact have some leverage and a petition to RGG and Goko accompanied by some sort of "threat" might actually accomplish something.

What's your plan? Give goko more money with no guarantees?

I will let that "plan" speak for itself.


I have a few questions about this. As of now there are at least 3 working open source Dominion simulators, one of which has all but a handful of cards implemented. These are essentially free versions of Dominion that facilitate local bot-to-bot play. Are these simulators actually illegal but tolerated because they don't compete with Goko, or are they fully legal? In case of the latter, where is the legal line? With slight modification they could facilitate local human-to-bot play (in a sense they do already because you can program the bots) and local human-to-human play. With quite a bit more effort you can add online functionality, allowing bots and/or humans to compete remotely, which in principle is little different from playing locally, except that it has now become an alternative for Goko.

As for iso clones... I have no moral objections against running an invite-only server where access is granted only to those who own all the sets on Goko (this can in principle be deduced from the gamelogs). Goko won't even discover this unless someone rats.

And then there's the option of going fully rogue, either by hosting the game anonymously from a country where a US C&D order is meaningless, or through some sort of peer-to-peer architecture where, say, the current automatch pool and leaderboard are distributed across all players, and matched players connect directly to each other, storing the logs locally and communicating the result of their match only implicitly through their changed rating. Or maybe you can just use an automatch and leaderboard server, as long as the server doesn't contain the game logic it might well be that only the software would be illegal?

Quote from: Donald
It is illegal to make even a free version of someone else's thing without their permission, that seems obvious. I am not too interested in discussing legal stuff; it always tends towards, how much can we screw you over without getting sued?

Yeah. Not a big fan of this approach for moral reasons. I'd much rather interact with Goko and RGG directly and work out some sort of agreement.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #97 on: January 08, 2014, 07:07:46 pm »
+1

I have a few questions about this. As of now there are at least 3 working open source Dominion simulators, one of which has all but a handful of cards implemented. These are essentially free versions of Dominion that facilitate local bot-to-bot play. Are these simulators actually illegal but tolerated because they don't compete with Goko, or are they fully legal? In case of the latter, where is the legal line? With slight modification they could facilitate local human-to-bot play (in a sense they do already because you can program the bots) and local human-to-human play. With quite a bit more effort you can add online functionality, allowing bots and/or humans to compete remotely, which in principle is little different from playing locally, except that it has now become an alternative for Goko.

As for iso clones... I have no moral objections against running an invite-only server where access is granted only to those who own all the sets on Goko (this can in principle be deduced from the gamelogs). Goko won't even discover this unless someone rats.

And then there's the option of going fully rogue, either by hosting the game anonymously from a country where a US C&D order is meaningless, or through some sort of peer-to-peer architecture where, say, the current automatch pool and leaderboard are distributed across all players, and matched players connect directly to each other, storing the logs locally and communicating the result of their match only implicitly through their changed rating. Or maybe you can just use an automatch and leaderboard server, as long as the server doesn't contain the game logic it might well be that only the software would be illegal?

Quote from: Donald
It is illegal to make even a free version of someone else's thing without their permission, that seems obvious. I am not too interested in discussing legal stuff; it always tends towards, how much can we screw you over without getting sued?

It shouldn't be too surprising that different people have different interests. Donald is not the leader of the Soviet Union and neither of us are living in it, so we're free to discuss what we want without his approval.

While my interests certainly do not include maximally screwing anyone over without getting sued, I am interested in finding a satisfying trade-off between maximizing my enjoyment of Dominion and taking into account the interests of others. That's why I don't see fully going rogue as the best option, but neither is the current situation, and I somewhat like the private server idea. I'm curious as to what suggestions others might have.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 07:16:47 pm by SheCantSayNo »
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #98 on: January 08, 2014, 07:16:36 pm »
+2

WanderingWinder hit the nail on the head here. Another pertinent quote:

Q: What people discuss the precise degree to which I can be ripped off without being able to sue?
A: My enemies!

Donald has been more present and available than any other author I can think of. Complaining about this sort of thing and suggesting unofficial versions of any sort is a huge pet peeve of his, whether or not you think that's reasonable. I'm not ready to slap him in the face just to scratch my first-world-problem itch that I currently can't play Dominion online.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #99 on: January 08, 2014, 07:35:38 pm »
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It's a pretty complicated/weird situation.  Someone in the thread said, "that's capitalism for you", but really, it's not, it's the opposite of capitalism.  Capitalism is the idea of people competing openly, intellectual property law is an exception to capitalism intended to encourage innovation. (Oh my God.  That is the most epic unintended pun I have ever made.) 

Actually, intellectual property law is a pretty straightforward consequence of capitalism. It creates new merchandise and market, which basically means more overall capital exists, which is the ultimate goal of the system (maybe not the ultimate goal of some humans using the system, but the system does not care about that). Derivatives are another good example of creating more capital while screwing over humanity.
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