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[soulnet]

So, f.DS people.  What do you think?  Can we raise $50k?

Easy.  Again, with 1200 people, at 50 bucks a pop, that's $60k.  $50 to own a piece of Dominion?  Pretty cool.

You'd get 10-20 people max paying 50 dollars....i would wager a forum donation campaign wouldnt raise over 2k...

Would you bet 50k?

[pingpongsam]

So I have a different idea:  A sit-in.

We pick a time/date... ideally some sort of peak time on a weekend.  We all log in, fill up the lobbies as much as we can... and sit.  Not playing games, not playing adventures, not doing anything other than sitting in the lobby and chatting in their horrendous chat system.  We'd need a critical mass of 100 or more people, with the intent of filling the first two or more lobbies with non-players, eventually causing the games being played in those lobbies to drop to zero.  Ideally, organize people so there are normally 49 sitters in each lobby, so that people coming in will have the chance to see what's going on and wonder why no games are happening.

Obviously, we'll need to tell them what we're doing.

It does little more than send a message.  But perhaps that sort of message is the best we can do.

Better yet everyone creates a request to join or private only game and names the game something specific to the protest. That way, there are games visible that no one can actually play and the game titles express the protest.

[2.71828.....]

So, f.DS people.  What do you think?  Can we raise $50k?

Easy.  Again, with 1200 people, at 50 bucks a pop, that's $60k.  $50 to own a piece of Dominion?  Pretty cool.

You'd get 10-20 people max paying 50 dollars....i would wager a forum donation campaign wouldnt raise over 2k...

Would you bet 50k?

I don't exactly know if this would work (because I don't really know if it fits within this domain), but using kickstarter would allow people to pledge money and unless the goal is met have no obligation to pay anything.

[Kirian]

So I have a different idea:  A sit-in.

We pick a time/date... ideally some sort of peak time on a weekend.  We all log in, fill up the lobbies as much as we can... and sit.  Not playing games, not playing adventures, not doing anything other than sitting in the lobby and chatting in their horrendous chat system.  We'd need a critical mass of 100 or more people, with the intent of filling the first two or more lobbies with non-players, eventually causing the games being played in those lobbies to drop to zero.  Ideally, organize people so there are normally 49 sitters in each lobby, so that people coming in will have the chance to see what's going on and wonder why no games are happening.

Obviously, we'll need to tell them what we're doing.

It does little more than send a message.  But perhaps that sort of message is the best we can do.

Better yet everyone creates a request to join or private only game and names the game something specific to the protest. That way, there are games visible that no one can actually play and the game titles express the protest.

Oh, I like this.

[Warfreak2]

I doubt anyone at goko would actually notice...

[Ozle]

So, f.DS people.  What do you think?  Can we raise $50k?

Easy.  Again, with 1200 people, at 50 bucks a pop, that's $60k.  $50 to own a piece of Dominion?  Pretty cool.

You'd get 10-20 people max paying 50 dollars....i would wager a forum donation campaign wouldnt raise over 2k...

Would you bet 50k?

Of course not, then someone could just donate 2k straight and win 50k

If this is your idea of a wager than you and I must play poker sometime....

[rrenaud]

Dominion is a top notch title though, and also the one they launched with, so I wouldn't be surprised if if it was more than 50k.

Only 2k for the whole forum?  I spend $300/year just so you jerks can talk about a game I don't even play anymore ;P.

[Tables]

I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of a sit in. I would suggest ~47 of us there, with games made called something like "Sit in Protest" (which can be counted to see what our numbers are like). Ideally we'd take over the main lobbies to do it, as people are most likely to see them.

[eliegel34]

I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of a sit in. I would suggest ~47 of us there, with games made called something like "Sit in Protest" (which can be counted to see what our numbers are like). Ideally we'd take over the main lobbies to do it, as people are most likely to see them.

You can also be in multiple lobbies at once if you use tabbed browsing, so with 40 some people, we could take over any number of the lobbies.

[Kirian]

Dominion is a top notch title though, and also the one they launched with, so I wouldn't be surprised if if it was more than 50k.

Only 2k for the whole forum?  I spend $300/year just so you jerks can talk about a game I don't even play anymore ;P.

I'm certain we could raise enough to defray that!

Also, the term jerk is politically incorrect; the preferred term is "tact-impaired."

[jsh357]

Be careful opening 40 Goko tabs, that will use approximately 30 Tb of RAM.

[Ozle]

Dominion is a top notch title though, and also the one they launched with, so I wouldn't be surprised if if it was more than 50k.

Only 2k for the whole forum?  I spend $300/year just so you jerks can talk about a game I don't even play anymore ;P.

You don't play anymore, and your already paying $300 a year for the forum,  so thats you unlikely to contribute then....and this was supposed to show that MORE people would donate?#

I have a tub of Haribo that im willing to donate (currently unopened but by the time this gets off the ground I cannot guarentee anything)

[Bounciness]

From my limited perspective, I'd think it was possible to work something out. So many people seem to want it. I would personally pay a fair amount of money to play on Isotropic again, I had about 2,500 games before it shut down. I don't expect to ever pay for Goko, when Isotropic shut down I stopped playing Dominion. It wasn't nearly as fun playing on Goko.

I played some in the past week on Goko, just for fun to see what it's like now. The adventures were nice for something different. However, ignoring other issues, it crashed every few games and had serious lag at least once in every game. It made it hard to enjoy playing.

I almost feel like the Goko interface should just be an alternative front-end experience for Isotropic. I know it's not that simple, but people want Isotropic and other people like the graphical interface of Goko.

[TheExpressicist]

Long time lurker, first time poster. Let's establish a few things...

1. Any form of "protest" will cause more harm than good. An online sit-in is a laughably inefficient means of communicating a message. And taxing the already strained capabilities of Goko's servers is just going to make things even less stable. Clearly Goko is working with an extremely limited set of resources. Creating another problem for them to fix is just one more roadblock to having a stable server.

2. Strategy is important. SheCantSayNo: there *is* harm in needlessly casting your lot on a long shot bet. Opportunities to galvanize an entire community are rare. It would be a shame to squander that opportunity on something that is, at best, a Hail Mary.

3. Speaking of strategy, it's a fools game to develop a plan entirely contingent on one person's cooperation. We should be planning for the very likely scenario in which Dougz says "Nah, I'm good."

4. Speaking of scenarios, overall there are four possible favorable resolutions: Goko magically fixes every problem and everything gets better. Dougz agrees to relaunch Isotropic. Someone else launches a server comparable to Isotropic. Someone provides Goko with the necessary resources to fix their problems.

5. If we want to ensure the problem is solved, we cannot rely on either Goko or Dougz to solve it for us. This means that the two remaining outcomes: someone launches an Isotropic clone. Or, we provide Goko with the necessary financial/manpower support.

So, all that being said: here's what needs to happen. Instead of raising money blindly, or speculating on the nature of DXV's relationship with Dougz, we need to take the necessary steps to determine that information with certainty.

Firstly, this involves contacting DXV and broaching the subject of creating an Isotropic clone in response to the failure of Goko to honor the Dominion name.

Secondly, this involves contacting Goko and finding out what kind of financial/personnel resources they need to definitively overcome these problems. Do they need a new server? How much does that cost? Do they need to hire more people? How much does that cost?

Once we find out those two things, then we as a community need to put our money where our mouths are. We either pool together the programming capability of the community to create an open source Isotropic clone, or we pool together the financial capability of the community in order to properly fund Goko.

If we can do neither, then our only option is to pray for a white knight to save us.

[LastFootnote]

Dude, anybody creating an isotropic clone has the potential to be sued. Donald certainly isn't going to condone or assist such a plan, and neither is dougz. Nor should they. Nor are we likely to freely give Goko our time or money in order to fix their service that we've already paid for.

Yeah, the way things are right now sucks. You can blame Goko for being incompetent or Jay for swallowing their pitch if you want. But don't ask for their blessing when you plan to create an illegal copy of their game.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Once theory gets around to it, you'll be able to find revised versions of the articles appearing in this thread at SavingDominionStrategy.com

[TheExpressicist]

Dude, anybody creating an isotropic clone has the potential to be sued. Donald certainly isn't going to condone or assist such a plan, and neither is dougz. Nor should they.

I agree that is most likely the case.

Nor are we likely to freely give Goko our time or money in order to fix their service that we've already paid for.

I would rather let the community speak for themselves. I understand the frustration of having already paid money for the product, however, clearly they do not have the financial resources to maintain a stable server. If the community of Dominion online players are not willing to pay the $X necessary in order to ensure a functioning product, then clearly Dominion does not have enough of a dedicated following to warrant an online platform.

I certainly hope that is not the case, but if it is, then this entire conversation is a moot point.

[TheExpressicist]

Once theory gets around to it, you'll be able to find revised versions of the articles appearing in this thread at SavingDominionStrategy.com

If we are represented by kingdom cards, I'd like to be Sea Hag.

[LastFootnote]

Nor are we likely to freely give Goko our time or money in order to fix their service that we've already paid for.

I would rather let the community speak for themselves. I understand the frustration of having already paid money for the product, however, clearly they do not have the financial resources to maintain a stable server. If the community of Dominion online players are not willing to pay the $X necessary in order to ensure a functioning product, then clearly Dominion does not have enough of a dedicated following to warrant an online platform.

I certainly hope that is not the case, but if it is, then this entire conversation is a moot point.

Don't get me wrong. I feel like I've gotten my money's worth out of Goko. If it goes down and another, better official online Dominion implementation comes to take its place, I'll probably pay again. If Goko tries to start charging a monthly or annual fee for the game, I will strongly consider paying that (but if the stability and experience didn't improve, I'd let it lapse pretty quickly). What I will not do is offer Goko my money, unsolicited. That's just throwing cash into a black hole with no guarantee it's actually going toward making the service better.

[GeoLib]

1. Any form of "protest" will cause more harm than good. An online sit-in is a laughably inefficient means of communicating a message. And taxing the already strained capabilities of Goko's servers is just going to make things even less stable. Clearly Goko is working with an extremely limited set of resources. Creating another problem for them to fix is just one more roadblock to having a stable server

Being unable to handle 50 people chilling in their lobby's is not an additional problem; It's an existing one. I think that this sort of protest might actually get their attention and show that we're organized (for some definition of organized). That is, if their unresponsiveness on getsatisfaction doesn't show a complete apathy/inability to monitor their product. It would be very easy to have enough people sit-in by just logging in as guests in additional tabs. The advantage of such a protest is that if their product was implemented properly, it would have very little effect. I think this action would have to be accompanied by some sort of clear message to goko and/or RGG.

Nor are we likely to freely give Goko our time or money in order to fix their service that we've already paid for.

I would rather let the community speak for themselves. I understand the frustration of having already paid money for the product, however, clearly they do not have the financial resources to maintain a stable server. If the community of Dominion online players are not willing to pay the $X necessary in order to ensure a functioning product, then clearly Dominion does not have enough of a dedicated following to warrant an online platform.

I certainly hope that is not the case, but if it is, then this entire conversation is a moot point.

It's not just about being willing to pay $X, it's about having any confidence that Goko would use that money effectively. I see very little evidence that they actually know what they're doing with the programming, so I'm not really willing to give them my money with no guarantee.

Once theory gets around to it, you'll be able to find revised versions of the articles appearing in this thread at SavingDominionStrategy.com

If we are represented by kingdom cards, I'd like to be Sea Hag.

You can edit your avatar under the profile tab. As you can see, we're not all kingdom cards :-P

[TheExpressicist]

@LastFootnote: That's fair, and I'm not suggesting we blindly give money to Goko. The most realistic favorable scenario I see unfolding is that Goko revises its pricing model to a pay to play system. It's better all around; it gives Goko the recurring revenue they need to cover overhead and maintenance. And it doesn't require any faith on our part, because it gives the community actual leverage: they can opt to cancel at any time.

@GeoLib: For the sake of argument, I'll pretend that an online sit-in is an effective means of communication. Once you have their attention and showed them that we're organized, what is the plan? You acknowledge that this would have to be accompanied by a clear message, so what would it be? "We're dissatisfied?" What's the plan for their inevitable, maddeningly predictable response? "We understand your frustration, we are fixing things, things will get better, etc. etc. etc." Unless you have a clear set of rewards and/or consequences laid out, your "protest" will be a waste of what is likely the only opportunity we will have to organize the community. (See above for the issue of not trusting Goko).

Also, I was being tongue in cheek about the Sea Hag. =P

[GeoLib]

@LastFootnote: That's fair, and I'm not suggesting we blindly give money to Goko. The most realistic favorable scenario I see unfolding is that Goko revises its pricing model to a pay to play system. It's better all around; it gives Goko the recurring revenue they need to cover overhead and maintenance. And it doesn't require any faith on our part, because it gives the community actual leverage: they can opt to cancel at any time.

@GeoLib: For the sake of argument, I'll pretend that an online sit-in is an effective means of communication. Once you have their attention and showed them that we're organized, what is the plan? You acknowledge that this would have to be accompanied by a clear message, so what would it be? "We're dissatisfied?" What's the plan for their inevitable, maddeningly predictable response? "We understand your frustration, we are fixing things, things will get better, etc. etc. etc." Unless you have a clear set of rewards and/or consequences laid out, your "protest" will be a waste of what is likely the only opportunity we will have to organize the community. (See above for the issue of not trusting Goko).

Also, I was being tongue in cheek about the Sea Hag. =P

There has been discussion of petitioning RGG and SCSN listed some pretty low-bar demands. I think the potentially most satisfying demand is that they officially sanction and allow the return of isotropic until such a time as they have a functional implementation of dominion. I think that if everything were sanctioned it is far more likely that dougz would be ok with relaunching isotropic (this would be something to check with him first, of course).

[popsofctown]

Dude, anybody creating an isotropic clone has the potential to be sued. Donald certainly isn't going to condone or assist such a plan, and neither is dougz. Nor should they. Nor are we likely to freely give Goko our time or money in order to fix their service that we've already paid for.

Yeah, the way things are right now sucks. You can blame Goko for being incompetent or Jay for swallowing their pitch if you want. But don't ask for their blessing when you plan to create an illegal copy of their game.

If you don't charge money for people to use the thing, you can't really get anything worse than a C&D. IANAL, but several unofficial ways of playing Magic the Gathering online for free would just shut down when they got a C&D and post a message on the home page.  I'd assume Wizards of the Coast has the legal prowess to get money from a lawsuit if they could.
As an aside, if you make a slightly modified Dominion with Silver at 4$, you can play Lab with zero actions, you immediately win upon obtaining 36 points, etc, slight changes that preserve the feel of the game but legally make it untargetable, you can avoid even a C&D and there will be a deckbuilding game on the internet that you can play without paying Sirlin's paypal.
(You could actually change it even less, they say, but I like the safe side)



It's a pretty complicated/weird situation.  Someone in the thread said, "that's capitalism for you", but really, it's not, it's the opposite of capitalism.  Capitalism is the idea of people competing openly, intellectual property law is an exception to capitalism intended to encourage innovation. (Oh my God.  That is the most epic unintended pun I have ever made.) 

If an unofficial implementation came about, Goko probably would be too apathetic and understaffed to even send a C&D at this point.  Unfortunately I think there's a less than 50%, but appreciable chance they would send a C&D, and then you've written a lot of fresh code that you might not be able to use for anything and that kind of sucks balls.

I really think intellectual property laws need to be reformed.  (there's a common factoid that floats around that Star Wars is copyrighted until 2140 or something absurd like that.)  Rather than sweeping reforms though, I think maybe there could be some particular exceptional rule on the books to apply to absurd situations like this one.  Like, "If people pay 20% more than what you're charging, and then don't even send that money to the person who made the bootleg product, then mail it instead to (charity/the creator of the license itself/the national debt/a frozen account that the license holder can seize if they can entice that person to transfer to their service by offering better reliability and features), then the bootleg product can be legitimately used as a substitute."  Or maybe some way to give legal standing to people who are being denied any legal access, whatsoever, to any reasonable service for an intellectual property because the license was sold to someone who is sitting on it.

[popsofctown]

Really I see no viable financial incentive for Goko to change, short of buying the license grassroots.  They would sell that at a loss, though, probably.

[Awaclus]

As an aside, if you make a slightly modified Dominion with Silver at 4$, you can play Lab with zero actions, you immediately win upon obtaining 36 points, etc, slight changes that preserve the feel of the game but legally make it untargetable, you can avoid even a C&D and there will be a deckbuilding game on the internet that you can play without paying Sirlin's paypal.
(You could actually change it even less, they say, but I like the safe side)

Actually you don't have to change the mechanics at all. However, you would probably have to change the names of the cards and reword the card texts (they can mean the same thing as the original texts as long as the exact words used are different).