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[theory]

Why do derivatives screw over humanity?  If anything, integrals are the real culprits!

More seriously, why do you think derivatives screw over humanity?  That's like saying that contracts screw over humanity. 

[SCSN]

WanderingWinder hit the nail on the head here. Another pertinent quote:

Q: What people discuss the precise degree to which I can be ripped off without being able to sue?
A: My enemies!

Donald has been more present and available than any other author I can think of. Complaining about this sort of thing and suggesting unofficial versions of any sort is a huge pet peeve of his, whether or not you think that's reasonable. I'm not ready to slap him in the face just to scratch my first-world-problem itch that I currently can't play Dominion online.

Well, if he's so sensitive that he's going to make me his enemy just for discussing some things he doesn't like, I'm more than happy to fight--and beat--him over a bunch of games of Dominion, either on Goko (if it runs) or a private server

[LastFootnote]

WanderingWinder hit the nail on the head here. Another pertinent quote:

Q: What people discuss the precise degree to which I can be ripped off without being able to sue?
A: My enemies!

Donald has been more present and available than any other author I can think of. Complaining about this sort of thing and suggesting unofficial versions of any sort is a huge pet peeve of his, whether or not you think that's reasonable. I'm not ready to slap him in the face just to scratch my first-world-problem itch that I currently can't play Dominion online.

Well, if he's so sensitive that he's going to make me his enemy just for discussing some things he doesn't like, I'm more than happy to fight--and beat--him over a bunch of games of Dominion, either on Goko (if it runs) or a private server

Let's say you live in a house with a friend of yours. This guy's been a really good friend to you for years. He drives you around when your car breaks down, lets you borrow his stuff anytime you want, and always remembers your birthday. All he asks is that you don't microwave Velveeta in the house. The smell makes him physically ill. But you do it anyway, because fuck him! There's no law against making nachos. It's your birthright, damn it!

tl;dr: You're not wrong, Walter. You're just an asshole.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

I'm going to extend that "no Velveeta" rule to my house as well if I could

[dondon151]

Donald has been more present and available than any other author I can think of. Complaining about this sort of thing and suggesting unofficial versions of any sort is a huge pet peeve of his, whether or not you think that's reasonable. I'm not ready to slap him in the face just to scratch my first-world-problem itch that I currently can't play Dominion online.

Donald X. seems to have a lot of pet peeves. Since he no longer comes here, I'm much less inclined to care.

[SCSN]

WanderingWinder hit the nail on the head here. Another pertinent quote:

Q: What people discuss the precise degree to which I can be ripped off without being able to sue?
A: My enemies!

Donald has been more present and available than any other author I can think of. Complaining about this sort of thing and suggesting unofficial versions of any sort is a huge pet peeve of his, whether or not you think that's reasonable. I'm not ready to slap him in the face just to scratch my first-world-problem itch that I currently can't play Dominion online.

Well, if he's so sensitive that he's going to make me his enemy just for discussing some things he doesn't like, I'm more than happy to fight--and beat--him over a bunch of games of Dominion, either on Goko (if it runs) or a private server

Let's say you live in a house with a friend of yours. This guy's been a really good friend to you for years. He drives you around when your car breaks down, lets you borrow his stuff anytime you want, and always remembers your birthday. All he asks is that you don't microwave Velveeta in the house. The smell makes him physically ill. But you do it anyway, because fuck him! There's no law against making nachos. It's your birthright, damn it!

tl;dr: You're not wrong, Walter. You're just an asshole.

Except that I don't have such a close relationship with DXV at all. I only became really active on the forums after he had left, and from what I'd been reading around then he seemed to react really butt-hurt and childish in response to legitimate criticism about Goko, even demanding the forums to be closed for a while (wtf?), so I don't even particularly like him as a person. He's much more like Bill Gates to me than like a close friend.

[GeoLib]

This seems like not the most productive direction for this thread. Can we at least try talking to goko and RGG before we pursue other options?

[soulnet]

Except that I don't have such a close relationship with DXV at all. I only became really active on the forums after he had left, and from what I'd been reading around then he seemed to react really butt-hurt and childish in response to legitimate criticism about Goko, even demanding the forums to be closed for a while (wtf?), so I don't even particularly like him as a person. He's much more like Bill Gates to me than like a close friend.

That's a harsh comparison. DXV's creation is awesome.

[SCSN]

Except that I don't have such a close relationship with DXV at all. I only became really active on the forums after he had left, and from what I'd been reading around then he seemed to react really butt-hurt and childish in response to legitimate criticism about Goko, even demanding the forums to be closed for a while (wtf?), so I don't even particularly like him as a person. He's much more like Bill Gates to me than like a close friend.

That's a harsh comparison. DXV's creation is awesome.

A harsh comparison? I think Bill Gates has done and is doing far more for mankind than almost anyone who ever lived. Both in terms of revolutionizing personal computing and the charity work he's doing nowadays.

But this is getting really off topic now. Time to sleep

[soulnet]

A harsh comparison? I think Bill Gates has done and is doing far more for mankind than almost anyone who ever lived. Both in terms of revolutionizing personal computing and the charity work he's doing nowadays.

I don't know about the charity part, but I doubt something can compensate for his crappy operating system.

[popsofctown]

A harsh comparison? I think Bill Gates has done and is doing far more for mankind than almost anyone who ever lived. Both in terms of revolutionizing personal computing and the charity work he's doing nowadays.

I don't know about the charity part, but I doubt something can compensate for his crappy operating system.

For the sake of pithy metaphors, it is pretty clear that a reference to Bill Gates is intended to be interpreted with the assumption that the operating with years of dominating market share doesn't suck rather than interpreted based on a minority opinion that Windows is the best bottled water sale in the history of humanity.

Maybe it is the best bottled water sale in the history of humanity, but don't pretend you don't follow the metaphor.

EDIT: simile, technically.

[popsofctown]

It's a pretty complicated/weird situation.  Someone in the thread said, "that's capitalism for you", but really, it's not, it's the opposite of capitalism.  Capitalism is the idea of people competing openly, intellectual property law is an exception to capitalism intended to encourage innovation. (Oh my God.  That is the most epic unintended pun I have ever made.) 

Actually, intellectual property law is a pretty straightforward consequence of capitalism. It creates new merchandise and market, which basically means more overall capital exists, which is the ultimate goal of the system (maybe not the ultimate goal of some humans using the system, but the system does not care about that). Derivatives are another good example of creating more capital while screwing over humanity.

Not really seeing intellectual property law as a straightforward consequence of capitalism.  Capitalism exists in an anarchist state, "I'll sell you a handgun for 30 biscuits instead of 50 biscuits".  IP law doesn't. If you sell your handgun to anyone you're not keeping in activity, it can be reverse engineered whether you like it or not, and that goes for most products.

[() | (_) ^/]

Guys I just want to reliably play Dominion online because I have a hard time finding IRL people to play with at the same time and place as me.  I own all the sets.  I'm willing to pay money to do this.

I like pro-rankings/leaderboards and tournaments and automatching according to preferences.  I'm willing to pay some more money for those too.

Does anyone know what I can do or where on the internet I should go to do this?

[popsofctown]

I told you guys Skypinion was the future but no one would follow me on the journey.

[() | (_) ^/]

I told you guys Skypinion was the future but no one would follow me on the journey.

I'm down.  Do we have to set up all the cards manually to do it, or is there an appropriate piece of software that we can use to make it much more efficient?

[jonts26]

Not to interrupt this wonderfully exciting conversation, but does any one else find it interesting that the first yes has over 70% of the votes?

[popsofctown]

Oh now you're down.  Months ago I couldn't get a peep out of anyone but Young Nick.  Who doesn't come round these parts anymore it seems.


When he and I experimented it was easiest to play turns and then verbally log them.  "I play Walled Village into Woodcutter Woodcutter, then use two Coppers to buy three Fool's Gold".  Then you remove 3 FGs from the pile on your side of the country so that pile depletion is tracked accurately.  Optionally this pile allows you full deck tracking if both players are cool with that sort of thing.

Ironically, megaturns are the easiest kind of turn to resolve by Skype, because the entire event can be summarized by indicating that your entire deck will be reshuffled, and what the trashes and gains were.


There is no software to make it much more efficient yet.  I suppose you could set something up that does pile control, and set up a system that lists a ten card kingdom of proxies on the computer screen so that kingdom reselection is faster, if speed would outweigh the confusion.

[soulnet]

Not really seeing intellectual property law as a straightforward consequence of capitalism.  Capitalism exists in an anarchist state, "I'll sell you a handgun for 30 biscuits instead of 50 biscuits".  IP law doesn't. If you sell your handgun to anyone you're not keeping in activity, it can be reverse engineered whether you like it or not, and that goes for most products.

The existence of private property and commerce is not the same as capitalism. Anyway, we are fully derailing from the topic into RSP, so maybe we should just stop. Political debate is entertaining, but thread hijacking is not.

[Witherweaver]

Why do derivatives screw over humanity?  If anything, integrals are the real culprits!

More seriously, why do you think derivatives screw over humanity?  That's like saying that contracts screw over humanity.

They don't, but people make bad investment decisions based on them.  People also made bad investment decisions before derivatives came around.  I think the fallout of the media coverage from the recent financial crisis were that derivatives were the "fault" that caused the crisis.

[Ozle]

WanderingWinder hit the nail on the head here. Another pertinent quote:

Q: What people discuss the precise degree to which I can be ripped off without being able to sue?
A: My enemies!

Donald has been more present and available than any other author I can think of. Complaining about this sort of thing and suggesting unofficial versions of any sort is a huge pet peeve of his, whether or not you think that's reasonable. I'm not ready to slap him in the face just to scratch my first-world-problem itch that I currently can't play Dominion online.

Well, if he's so sensitive that he's going to make me his enemy just for discussing some things he doesn't like, I'm more than happy to fight--and beat--him over a bunch of games of Dominion, either on Goko (if it runs) or a private server

Let's say you live in a house with a friend of yours. This guy's been a really good friend to you for years. He drives you around when your car breaks down, lets you borrow his stuff anytime you want, and always remembers your birthday. All he asks is that you don't microwave Velveeta in the house. The smell makes him physically ill. But you do it anyway, because fuck him! There's no law against making nachos. It's your birthright, damn it!

tl;dr: You're not wrong, Walter. You're just an asshole.

Except that I don't have such a close relationship with DXV at all. I only became really active on the forums after he had left, and from what I'd been reading around then he seemed to react really butt-hurt and childish in response to legitimate criticism about Goko, even demanding the forums to be closed for a while (wtf?), so I don't even particularly like him as a person. He's much more like Bill Gates to me than like a close friend.

Firstly, the shutting of the forums was a joke.
Secondly: There is no secondly

Fourthly: Reacting like that would be childish and 'butt-hurt' (Seriously? What is this?) would be a bit overeacting if it was just one comment. But it wasnt, there was a continous barrage of comments, and they were just the ones in here, I would imagine BGG did similarly (but at a much less cool level of course), and then he would have got a lot more sent to him in private. I would imagine that even before Goko he got so many messages over Dominion that he tried to answer as best he can

All for something that actually he has no control over since he signed the rights over to RGG.

Donalds problem was that he did become personally attached to this community, he talked and laughed and joked along with us. Then came a barrage of criticism, he tried to help out as best he could, made suggestions to us, to Goko and passed comments on to relevant parties. And then eventually he had enough of the complaing and whinging and decided he didn't need the hassle in his life.

If I ever get anything published im staying well away from Fansites, especially ones with raving fanatacists like us!

[soulnet]

They don't, but people make bad investment decisions based on them.  People also made bad investment decisions before derivatives came around.  I think the fallout of the media coverage from the recent financial crisis were that derivatives were the "fault" that caused the crisis.

I actually think all financial instruments that are not tied to real stuff (with a broad interpretation of real stuff to include services) are screwing over humanity. Derivatives are just a notable example. It is just gambling but the people you are betting against are the ones that control the lottery numbers.

[Ozle]

Buy Pork Bellies and Orange Juice!

[Witherweaver]

I'm a little unsure about the statement someone quoted from DXV that even a free version of someone else's work is illegal without their permission.  I can't imagine it being illegal for me to cut my own Dominion cards for my own use and play them with my friends, as long as I don't try to make money off of it.  What part could be illegal?  Are the cards themselves contraband because I took someone else's idea to make them?  Okay, fine, suppose I don't make the cards and my friends and I just play by writing everything down on a piece of paper. (Say we use a random number generator to resolve shuffles.)   Is the paper illegal?  Suppose my friends and I have eidetic memory and can simply reproduce the entire game state in our heads, and play by just communicating.  Is this action illegal? 

Surely this isn't what he meant.  He probably meant that if a free version can compete with the official (costing money) version, then there should be laws to protect the market interest of the official version.  But is this really true?  If the free version competes with the official version, then the official version, well, isn't competitive enough.  It has to be made better. 

I'm sure we could all make our own standard 52-card playing cards, but they just wouldn't feel the same and Spades or Hearts or whatever wouldn't be as enjoyable.  So we spend a couple dollars because it's worth it.  We buy Dominion because (1) It's more valuable to us than the time, effort, and result of recreating our own, and (2) We like the product so we want to support those who made it so that they will continue to make good products. 

I think that creating a virtual copy of Dominion (like Isotropic was) has to be legal under any sensible laws.  In fact, I would probably argue that doing so is a good thing.  If the "official" version is not as good as the user-made version, then a law shouldn't protect its existence.  The pressure of people using the user-made version instead of the official version should force the official version to become better.  Goko is allowed to exist in a state that is unsatisfactory to the Dominion fan base precisely because there is no competition to Goko.   As long as the user-made version isn't charging money (because then the copyright owners should be able to sue for that revenue), I don't see the problem.  I also don't see how anyone is getting screwed over.

[Witherweaver]

They don't, but people make bad investment decisions based on them.  People also made bad investment decisions before derivatives came around.  I think the fallout of the media coverage from the recent financial crisis were that derivatives were the "fault" that caused the crisis.

I actually think all financial instruments that are not tied to real stuff (with a broad interpretation of real stuff to include services) are screwing over humanity. Derivatives are just a notable example. It is just gambling but the people you are betting against are the ones that control the lottery numbers.

Derivatives are tied to real stuff, and it's not just gambling.  Okay, yes, in some cases there is a lot of gambling going on, but in many cases they're fully justified.  Imagine, for instance, you are a farmer that grows corn.  Your profit (and livelihood) is entirely tied upon the price of corn.  You are naturally in a "gambling" position, because at the beginning of each harvest season you're betting that the price of corn after the harvest will be high enough to justify whatever overhead for growing it that you're putting into it in the present.  But if the price of corn were to fall dramatically after harvest season, you could face extreme (perhaps unrecoverable) losses.  So you can choose to hedge this bet by taking up an position in a derivatives contract.  This way you can essentially lock in a price for the future for some overhead cost.  Your overall potential profit will decrease, but your risk has decreased.  It's a pretty sensible thing to do and there is a natural need for it.

[Kirian]

Buy Pork Bellies and Orange Juice!