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Author Topic: Petition for the return of Isotropic  (Read 92531 times)

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SCSN

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Petition for the return of Isotropic
« on: January 05, 2014, 03:56:45 pm »
+5

With the crumbling of their brittle server under a bit of unanticipated traffic as the latest installment in Goko's serial display of inconceivable ineptitude, they've exhausted all doubts of which a reasonable person might grant them the benefit.

I neither know nor care for the particulars of the agreement between dougz and DXV, but with the latter outing his dissatisfaction with whoever is (not) running Goko in such explicit terms as

Quote from: Donald X.
If you do end up needing to contact Goko, most people simply wait until they're the one in charge of the company; everyone gets a turn eventually. Then just remind yourself about whatever your problem was and try not to push it onto whoever comes after you.

one could imagine that he wouldn't have much of a problem with Isotropic's (temporary) return.

So what I propose is this:

1. The immediate return of Isotropic.

2. Informing Goko by means of a friendly Facebook pm (highest likelihood of being read) of (1) and promising them to voluntarily take down Isotropic again once they successfully complete a set of tough challenges, the exact content of which is up for debate, but example elements might be:

- Two consecutive months of 99%+ uptime.
- One month without games hanging or not loading at all.
- Two weeks without serious lagging, like the 10 seconds of suspenseful anticipation between playing a Mining Village and receiving into my hand the Curse that was top-decked by my opponent's Sea Hag.
- People bringing up critical issues on Getsatisfaction like non-loading games or non-functioning account-activation receiving a response within a reasonable time-frame (let's say less than 3 weeks).
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achmed_sender

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2014, 04:05:01 pm »
+5

There's missing the option "Yes" for the poll.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2014, 04:10:09 pm »
+7

dougz probably won't do this. If I had to guess.
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DG

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2014, 04:19:00 pm »
+5

I wouldn't drag Donald X. into this. He's a game designer, I'm guessing he doesn't like politics and commercial stuff, and the Goko contract is presumably with Rio Grande. Even though Goko is a lame duck it could still be better from Rio Grande's point of view to keep a revenue stream from Goko than have a fight with them over the rights. For all we know, RGG might have better partners waiting in the wings if Goko goes bust.
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GeoLib

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2014, 04:22:21 pm »
+2

Has anyone tried contacting Rio Grande and pointing out that Goko has numerous problems XYZ? They might actually still listen to people.
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SCSN

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2014, 04:41:18 pm »
0

dougz probably won't do this. If I had to guess.

I love placing tiny bets on low-probability events with massive pay-offs.

I wouldn't drag Donald X. into this. He's a game designer, I'm guessing he doesn't like politics and commercial stuff, and the Goko contract is presumably with Rio Grande. Even though Goko is a lame duck it could still be better from Rio Grande's point of view to keep a revenue stream from Goko than have a fight with them over the rights. For all we know, RGG might have better partners waiting in the wings if Goko goes bust.

I'm open to any and all explicit suggestions for modification of the OP and/or the course of action to be taken. As it is your post sounds too vague to be useful and reeks too much of "let's just wait and see, maybe our problems will just magically go away," which is an attitude for which I have nothing but the utmost contempt.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2014, 04:56:12 pm »
+5

SCSN, I admire your gumption, but it's not impossible to alienate the people you want to do things for you by making demands on them (I'm not referring to Goko here, screw Goko).
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Kirian

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2014, 05:02:45 pm »
+5

I neither know nor care for the particulars of the agreement between dougz and DXV, but with the latter outing his dissatisfaction with whoever is (not) running Goko in such explicit terms as

Quote from: Donald X.
If you do end up needing to contact Goko, most people simply wait until they're the one in charge of the company; everyone gets a turn eventually. Then just remind yourself about whatever your problem was and try not to push it onto whoever comes after you.

one could imagine that he wouldn't have much of a problem with Isotropic's (temporary) return.

While I generally agree with your sentiment, I think you're far too optimistic about this going anywhere:

1.  Just because Donald has expressed his displeasure with Goko doesn't mean he has the ability to renegotiate RGG's contracts with Goko.  There is, as far as I know, no direct business relationship between Donald X and Goko.

2.  The gentlemen's agreement between DougZ and Donald X is a pretty strong one, as I understand it, but even if it weren't, DougZ has exactly nothing to gain and a lot to lose from re-opening Iso Dominion.  RGG, Donald, and DougZ could lose actual money to a lawsuit here.  Not going to happen.

3.  That said, I don't think Goko will do a damned thing about someone else coding up their own Iso-style Dominion.  There won't be enough to gain from trying to shut such a thing down, because they already have most of the money they're going to make from us!  How many people are going to buy into Goko based on TB's video?  Approximately none, given the immediate failure of Goko to handle the slightly increased load.

This last is especially true if the code is open-source and multiple people are willing to mirror it.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2014, 05:06:18 pm »
+1

I'm open to any and all explicit suggestions for modification of the OP and/or the course of action to be taken. As it is your post sounds too vague to be useful and reeks too much of "let's just wait and see, maybe our problems will just magically go away," which is an attitude for which I have nothing but the utmost contempt.

Explicit suggestion:

(1) Code your own Dominion site, or find someone who can.
(2) Host the code, or find a place to host it.
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SCSN

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2014, 05:42:24 pm »
0

SCSN, I admire your gumption, but it's not impossible to alienate the people you want to do things for you by making demands on them (I'm not referring to Goko here, screw Goko).

That's a risk I'm willing to take; I play to win, not to not lose.

Also, I'm not an idiot, I don't plan to make demands on anyone (well, except Goko, but they can suck my... no, wait, that would probably be highly unpleasant). I'm going to contact dougz with this suggestion and let him make the call, and I'm happy with whatever he'll decide. I considered writing to him without any backing from the community, but I figured that with a bunch of people supporting the idea he'd be at least slightly more willing to consider it.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2014, 05:52:22 pm »
0

At the time of writing this post, SCSN had over 4000 pro games played on Goko according to drunkensailor stats, so he definitely gave Goko a shot.

I don't think we should pressure DougZ to reopen iso Dominion unless Goko actually announces a prolonged or permanent shutdown. It would likely break whatever gentleman's agreement he's made with RGG and Donald X., or at least go against his code of ethics. Even if Goko does shut down, there's no guarantee he'd be willing to put the site back up.

Having a community maintained Online Implementation waiting in the wings sounds like it could be a neat idea (personally, I doubt that I have enough experience with web applications to contribute meaningfully to such a project).
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SCSN

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2014, 06:26:37 pm »
0

While I generally agree with your sentiment, I think you're far too optimistic about this going anywhere:

1.  Just because Donald has expressed his displeasure with Goko doesn't mean he has the ability to renegotiate RGG's contracts with Goko.  There is, as far as I know, no direct business relationship between Donald X and Goko.

2.  The gentlemen's agreement between DougZ and Donald X is a pretty strong one, as I understand it, but even if it weren't [...] RGG, Donald, and DougZ could lose actual money to a lawsuit here.  Not going to happen.

These are indeed serious objections. At this point I'm reluctant to say more than that I have considered them, and that I'll address them in my message to dougz.

Quote
DougZ has exactly nothing to gain from re-opening Iso Dominion

This is simply false. It's far more satisfying to have the fruits of hundreds of hours of coding flourish in the wild than to have them rust away on an eroding hard drive.

Explicit suggestion:

(1) Code your own Dominion site, or find someone who can.
(2) Host the code, or find a place to host it.

It's an idea I'm toying with, but I won't be able to pull it off on my own. In any case, before I might consider reinventing the wheel, I want to try my luck with the existing manufacturers. The absolute best of them sounds like a great place to start :)
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2014, 06:40:38 pm »
+8

Huh. I'm surprised by how much I'm in the minority, given those poll options.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2014, 06:59:51 pm »
+1

I don't know much about contract law, but I would imagine that sufficient incompetence on Goko's part would at least permit an opportunity to terminate the contract.  Whether RGG would bother making that effort is less clear though.  SCSN, if you choose to contact doug or Donald, I would ask them to support you (us) in a statement to Jay at RGG, rather than making a request for them to act unilaterally.

It is really sad.  The official online Dominion should have been better than iso.  RGG, Donald, and the community all deserved better.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2014, 07:03:12 pm »
+3

Another point worth considering.  While we would mostly be happy with Goko shutting down and iso returning, there are a lot of customers who have spent real money on Goko expansions who probably would not like iso's barebones text-based interface.  I'm not sure that RGG wants to anger those customers.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2014, 11:23:13 pm »
+7

SCSN, I admire your gumption, but it's not impossible to alienate the people you want to do things for you by making demands on them (I'm not referring to Goko here, screw Goko).

That's a risk I'm willing to take; I play to win, not to not lose.

Also, I'm not an idiot, I don't plan to make demands on anyone (well, except Goko, but they can suck my... no, wait, that would probably be highly unpleasant). I'm going to contact dougz with this suggestion and let him make the call, and I'm happy with whatever he'll decide. I considered writing to him without any backing from the community, but I figured that with a bunch of people supporting the idea he'd be at least slightly more willing to consider it.

Dude. The point of a petition is to show that a request has the backing of a community. Do you think there is even a tiny chance that Dougz doesn't ALREADY KNOW that the f.DS community wants isotropic Dominion back? Trust me. He knows. Not only will your petition do no good, it may actually do harm.

Even if Rio Grande doesn't renew their contract with Goko and Goko Dominion eventually goes down, I wouldn't expect isotropic to come back up. Why? Because of us and our whiny bullshit. Let's say Goko does go down and Rio Grande contracts with another company to do another web or PC-based version of Dominion. Bringing isotropic back up during the interim is just inviting another round of whining when it eventually comes down. I don't presume to speak for Donald, but I would be shocked if he found that idea appealing after experiencing the backlash from the first shutdown.

I think the only way we're going to see isotropic Dominion again is if Goko shuts down (or their Dominion contract isn't renewed) and Rio Grande either A) decides not to partner with anybody to create another official digital version or B) partners with someone just to create iOS and/or Android versions for mobile devices. Either way, there would be no official PC version for isotropic to be competition for.
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SCSN

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2014, 11:48:07 pm »
0

I'm not sure what your point is.

If you're just saying that you think it won't work, then I completely agree with you, but I think it's at least worth a try because it takes me very little effort and the potential pay-off is huge (if it has even a 0.001% chance of working that's enough for me, and I certainly believe it's at least that, if you don't that's fine, let's just agree to disagree).

If you're actually trying to persuade me to take it down you should present some compelling reasons because right now I'm not seeing any.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2014, 11:53:43 pm »
0

RGG wishes Goko had a viable product, and are disappointed with it being such a dismal failure.   If they find an alternative, they will explore it.  Isotropic does not register except as an unofficial fan creation that would have prevented a product like Goko from getting critical mass/attention to begin with.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2014, 11:56:09 pm »
+5

I'm not sure what your point is.

If you're just saying that you think it won't work, then I completely agree with you, but I think it's at least worth a try because it takes me very little effort and the potential pay-off is huge (if it has even a 0.001% chance of working that's enough for me, and I certainly believe it's at least that, if you don't that's fine, let's just agree to disagree).

If you're actually trying to persuade me to take it down you should present some compelling reasons because right now I'm not seeing any.

Because your incessant complaining is doing further harm to this community's reputation. I doubt you'll find that reason "compelling" in your current mindset, but there it is.
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SCSN

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2014, 12:19:45 am »
+1

Okay, I appreciate your contribution.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2014, 12:52:55 am »
0

Another point worth considering.  While we would mostly be happy with Goko shutting down and iso returning, there are a lot of customers who have spent real money on Goko expansions who probably would not like iso's barebones text-based interface.  I'm not sure that RGG wants to anger those customers.
If those people exist, how is iso being open as an alternative any worse for them? They can (can't) still play on goko if they so desire.

If dougz was willing to give the code to someone else to host, would that be another possibility? I would even pay goko  again to have the cards in iso if that was somehow possible.

It's a bizarre situation, people are willing to pay for a free alternative but aren't allowed because a strictly inferior commercial alternative won't let them, even if the commercial alternative likely has drained all the income it can (we already have the cards, it's not like we'd be paying goko any more money), costs money to run and isn't even running.

There should be a solution for this, there really should. I wholeheartedly agree with SCSN, sitting idle isn't our best option.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2014, 12:57:10 am »
0

Our tone probably shouldn't be bitter and angry at goko, as I too don't see much hope in going rogue against existing contracts. I think a compromise of some sort is more likely.

"We love the game of dominion. It's become clear goko isn't capable of providing a sufficient platform to play it, and we know for a fact dougz was. Goko costs money to run, likely isn't generating much more income. How can we find a solution goko is okay with that lets us play dominion?"

Sigh, somehow getting in touch with a goko representative would be great I guess.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2014, 01:10:50 am »
+1


It's a bizarre situation, people are willing to pay for a free alternative but aren't allowed because a strictly inferior commercial alternative won't let them, even if the commercial alternative likely has drained all the income it can (we already have the cards, it's not like we'd be paying goko any more money), costs money to run and isn't even running.

Yay capitalism!
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2014, 01:51:00 am »
+1

Asking someone to do something for you because it's what you want isn't going to go anywhere.

However, asking someone to do something for you because it's in their economic interest is much more likely to get their attention.  If you can gather a large enough mass of people who say "I would be willing to pay $x for Isotropic if it came back", arranging the deal between RGG, DXV, dougz, and Goko, has a lot more potential.  Goko isn't making much money right now, but maybe they could be if they had some of the income from a paid Isotropic.  I have literally no idea how much money/how many people would need to agree to make that kind of deal (or whether it's politically possible anyway), but I think the next step would be do put up a poll asking people at f.ds how much they would be willing to pay for Iso if it were brought back.  If RGG/Goko see that people are willing to give them money to bring back Iso, and dougz gets a share of the profit from it, I think everyone comes out ahead.

Of course, that's all assuming that enough people would be willing to pay for Iso, presumably in addition to what they have already paid for Goko.  Again, I have no idea whether that's even reasonably within reach.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2014, 01:56:48 am »
+5

I know that Iso isn't going to return, but I agree with the OP's point number 2, which is that there needs to be some impetus to coerce Goko into providing better service.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2014, 01:57:44 am »
+1

Unfortunately, it's actually not in goko's interest to let us leave, even if there were more money in it for them because having fewer people on their site decreases the ease with which others can get a game and therefore the value of their implementation. I do think that it might be worth it to point out to RGG, politely, that goko has clearly demonstrated an inability to deliver a functional product and that perhaps this would be grounds to break the contract.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2014, 11:30:17 am »
0

having fewer people on their site decreases the ease with which others can get a game and therefore the value of their implementation
on the other hand, having the people who have already payed for cards leave allows there to be more room on the site for people who haven't payed for cards yet to play without the site crashing.

Also, I find it pretty funny that the first option was selected over twice as many times as the second.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2014, 12:00:20 pm »
+10

Why? Because of us and our whiny bullshit.

is it really so offensive that a community dedicated to dominion would be upset with a clearly substandard dominion implementation? i am a little confused by your antagonism. where else should dominion enthusiasts discuss (and yes, complain about) goko? a bug in a new apple product would be near national news, but we are apparently not allowed to complain about a crappy dominion product? come on now. perhaps if goko actually responded to issues in their own forums it wouldn't spill over to here so regularly. could some of the criticism here be a bit more tactful? sure. but i also don't understand the seeming 'untouchable' status goko has for many users.

fwiw, grumblings have brought change in the past. i would remind people that when it was first released goko cost quite a bit more for all sets than it does now.

I don't presume to speak for Donald, but I would be shocked if he found that idea appealing after experiencing the backlash from the first shutdown.

the backlash was not because isotropic shut down. the backlash was because goko sucks and it was the only legal alternative. if the official implentation was quality you wouldn't hear much of a peep about isotropic.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2014, 12:17:20 pm »
+3

Like GE, I think it's fine to be vocal about our concerns with Goko.  There's no reason to suffer with a bad product when it's entirely possible to change things.  I applaud SCSN in being willing to try and take action. That said, I think I also agree that contacting RGG and voicing concerns is better than setting up a Pirate Radio Isotropic. For one, I don't think dragging dougz in to this is a good plan; he's the one with something to lose if he brings back the site, and it's awfully entitled of us to say he should run the servers from his basement at his own personal risk. If he wants to, great, but that should be his own decision.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2014, 12:22:47 pm »
0

We can't decide if Iso is coming back or not, that's Dougz doing it.

But, I think petitioning RGG or making another site might work.  If I could, I would be fine making the site (I can't though).
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2014, 12:31:24 pm »
0

For one, I don't think dragging dougz in to this is a good plan; he's the one with something to lose if he brings back the site, and it's awfully entitled of us to say he should run the servers from his basement at his own personal risk. If he wants to, great, but that should be his own decision.

i would agree that pressuring dougz to reimplement isotropic is probably a poor move. but i think you could make a case that contacting him is not an inherently bad idea. he is seemingly familiar with and on friendly terms with all involved parties (this community, DXV, RGG, and Goko) and likely has better ways of directly contacting the other parties. asking him to start up pirate isotropic is a heavy request, but for him to forward a message or ask a question is not (to me) unreasonable.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2014, 12:37:31 pm »
0

Asking someone to do something for you because it's what you want isn't going to go anywhere.

However, asking someone to do something for you because it's in their economic interest is much more likely to get their attention.  If you can gather a large enough mass of people who say "I would be willing to pay $x for Isotropic if it came back", arranging the deal between RGG, DXV, dougz, and Goko, has a lot more potential.  Goko isn't making much money right now, but maybe they could be if they had some of the income from a paid Isotropic.  I have literally no idea how much money/how many people would need to agree to make that kind of deal (or whether it's politically possible anyway), but I think the next step would be do put up a poll asking people at f.ds how much they would be willing to pay for Iso if it were brought back.  If RGG/Goko see that people are willing to give them money to bring back Iso, and dougz gets a share of the profit from it, I think everyone comes out ahead.

Of course, that's all assuming that enough people would be willing to pay for Iso, presumably in addition to what they have already paid for Goko.  Again, I have no idea whether that's even reasonably within reach.
What if DougZ refuses to take our money? Seriously, he made Isotropic with the intention that it would be free and he might object to taking money from it. Sounds strange, but people can be like that (or is it just me). Someone would need to be prepared to take over Iso Dominion if it became a paid venture.

I don't expect Iso Dominion to return, or at least not in its current form. it would be cool if it did, but the cahnces look really bleak right now. That said, the threat of the official online implementation becoming non-functional appears very real now. Naturally, we should be voicing our concerns and dissatisfaction with such a scenario. If that results in a better product in the end, then yay!
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2014, 12:48:50 pm »
+11

For one, I don't think dragging dougz in to this is a good plan; he's the one with something to lose if he brings back the site, and it's awfully entitled of us to say he should run the servers from his basement at his own personal risk. If he wants to, great, but that should be his own decision.

i would agree that pressuring dougz to reimplement isotropic is probably a poor move. but i think you could make a case that contacting him is not an inherently bad idea. he is seemingly familiar with and on friendly terms with all involved parties (this community, DXV, RGG, and Goko) and likely has better ways of directly contacting the other parties. asking him to start up pirate isotropic is a heavy request, but for him to forward a message or ask a question is not (to me) unreasonable.

But such a message could just as well go to Donald X, or even Jay, via BGG messages.  I just don't see the use in asking DougZ to be any part of this at all--not even open-sourcing his code.

--------

I do agree, however, that we need to hold Goko accountable in some fashion.  How do we hold their feet to the fire?  Well, a boycott is meaningless at this; they already have our money.  Stop playing there?  Well, that just frees up their server for others to play without lag and/or breakdown!  So that's useless.  Setting up a Radio Free Dominion would certainly get their attention, but that's going to take several weeks of dedicated work by someone who is able and willing.

So I have a different idea:  A sit-in.

We pick a time/date... ideally some sort of peak time on a weekend.  We all log in, fill up the lobbies as much as we can... and sit.  Not playing games, not playing adventures, not doing anything other than sitting in the lobby and chatting in their horrendous chat system.  We'd need a critical mass of 100 or more people, with the intent of filling the first two or more lobbies with non-players, eventually causing the games being played in those lobbies to drop to zero.  Ideally, organize people so there are normally 49 sitters in each lobby, so that people coming in will have the chance to see what's going on and wonder why no games are happening.

Obviously, we'll need to tell them what we're doing.

It does little more than send a message.  But perhaps that sort of message is the best we can do.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2014, 01:25:42 pm »
+4

Why? Because of us and our whiny bullshit.

is it really so offensive that a community dedicated to dominion would be upset with a clearly substandard dominion implementation? i am a little confused by your antagonism. where else should dominion enthusiasts discuss (and yes, complain about) goko? a bug in a new apple product would be near national news, but we are apparently not allowed to complain about a crappy dominion product? come on now. perhaps if goko actually responded to issues in their own forums it wouldn't spill over to here so regularly. could some of the criticism here be a bit more tactful? sure. but i also don't understand the seeming 'untouchable' status goko has for many users.

fwiw, grumblings have brought change in the past. i would remind people that when it was first released goko cost quite a bit more for all sets than it does now.

I don't think Goko is strictly worse than isotropic. When it's running and free of lag and I'm running the extension, I prefer it to isotropic. Visual appeal isn't everything, but it's something and I like Goko's look and most (but not all) of its interface. But, yeah, that's a lot of caveats. Do we have the right to complain? Of course. Complain as much as you want. But know that the sheer volume and venom of the complaining makes isotropic less likely to come back, not more.

Isotropic is not coming back while Goko still has a contract with Rio Grande Games. Period. Furthermore, everybody involved already knows that Goko has failed. Sending a message asking dougz to bring back isotropic is not just pointless, it's annoying. I suppose there is a chance that Goko has somehow already violated their contract with Rio Grande and Jay is choosing to do nothing about it. In that case, it might be worth sending a very polite request to Rio Grande Games asking whether Goko is holding up their end of the contract and if not, could something be done about it. But that's almost certainly not what's going on. Like it says in this article, Goko doesn't have any obligation to even create a semi-working implementation for its contracted properties. Those other hundred licenses they bought? They're just sitting around waiting to expire.

I don't presume to speak for Donald, but I would be shocked if he found that idea appealing after experiencing the backlash from the first shutdown.

the backlash was not because isotropic shut down. the backlash was because goko sucks and it was the only legal alternative. if the official implentation was quality you wouldn't hear much of a peep about isotropic.

False. There are lots of people who complained about having to pay for the virtual game when they'd bought the physical one, those who complained about the loss of the text-based interface (which no professional company is going to allow), etc. Even if Goko hadn't had all these issues, there would have been plenty of complaining. Less, certainly, but still plenty.

So I have a different idea:  A sit-in.

We pick a time/date... ideally some sort of peak time on a weekend.  We all log in, fill up the lobbies as much as we can... and sit.  Not playing games, not playing adventures, not doing anything other than sitting in the lobby and chatting in their horrendous chat system.  We'd need a critical mass of 100 or more people, with the intent of filling the first two or more lobbies with non-players, eventually causing the games being played in those lobbies to drop to zero.  Ideally, organize people so there are normally 49 sitters in each lobby, so that people coming in will have the chance to see what's going on and wonder why no games are happening.

Obviously, we'll need to tell them what we're doing.

It does little more than send a message.  But perhaps that sort of message is the best we can do.

This could work, but wouldn't it use up more of their resources if we actually kept playing Dominion during the sit-in?

Like GE, I think it's fine to be vocal about our concerns with Goko.  There's no reason to suffer with a bad product when it's entirely possible to change things.  I applaud SCSN in being willing to try and take action. That said, I think I also agree that contacting RGG and voicing concerns is better than setting up a Pirate Radio Isotropic. For one, I don't think dragging dougz in to this is a good plan; he's the one with something to lose if he brings back the site, and it's awfully entitled of us to say he should run the servers from his basement at his own personal risk. If he wants to, great, but that should be his own decision.

I strongly agree.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 01:30:56 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2014, 01:47:24 pm »
0

False. There are lots of people who complained about having to pay for the virtual game when they'd bought the physical one, those who complained about the loss of the text-based interface (which no professional company is going to allow), etc. Even if Goko hadn't had all these issues, there would have been plenty of complaining. Less, certainly, but still plenty.

how exactly does that make what i said false? i never said that was the only reason for the backlash. i listed the chief reason for the backlash, one that encompasses a host of issues. if that was somehow unclear to you i will gladly edit the post.

and if the only issue was people complaining about double paying it wouldn't be a "backlash" so much as a handful of people complaining. and even those concerns would be alleviated with a competitive price for a quality product.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2014, 01:56:19 pm »
+5

How come this thread is getting so much more attention than mine about the Return of Betamax!!
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2014, 03:20:17 pm »
+10

Honestly, this is a crappy way to address the current problem (Goko is failing to live up to their agreement) because it conflates it with another problem (we want Isotropic back). The latter has already been shown to be unattainable, whereas the former is very much a reasonable expectation.

The focus needs to be that Goko is an unacceptable system for reasons X, Y, and Z, and we the players need help from RGG to use whatever leverage their contract with Goko contains to press them into delivering a usable product with sufficient uptime and player capacity.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 03:22:06 pm by Stealth Tomato »
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2014, 03:26:35 pm »
+3

Careful, now, we don't want to drive away yet another Dominion creator from this forum.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2014, 03:40:40 pm »
+1

Possibly only tangentially relevant, but sufficient to tag the thread:

I would prefer a Base-only Iso to all cards Goko.

I don't know if Goko sees me as a customer at all, given I haven't bought their cards (although during a moment of weakness, I tried; hilariously, their payment system wouldn't accept a credit card or paypal, both used without issue hundreds of times at well-run sites like amazon and eBay), and now, given their woes, I never will.

RGG should have had us players pay them directly, a monthly subscription, for Iso, and been done with it.  Moot now, though.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2014, 03:48:25 pm »
0

I would prefer a Base-only Iso to all cards Goko.

Japanese online Dominion also has Intrigue!
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2014, 03:52:43 pm »
0

Possibly only tangentially relevant, but sufficient to tag the thread:

I would prefer a Base-only Iso to all cards Goko.

I wouldn't.

RGG should have had us players pay them directly, a monthly subscription, for Iso, and been done with it.  Moot now, though.

An option of that sort was floated.. It is not RGG's fault that it didn't happen. They don't control DougZ's decisions.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2014, 04:23:35 pm »
0

RGG should have had us players pay them directly, a monthly subscription, for Iso, and been done with it.  Moot now, though.

An option of that sort was floated.. It is not RGG's fault that it didn't happen. They don't control DougZ's decisions.

I'm pretty sure DougZ has no control over whether RGG collects money from Dominion players.  If RGG had started up a subscription service and just told DougZ they didn't care if he kept Iso up (all pre-Goko, obviously), I'm sure it would have worked out fine for RGG and better for the majority of f.ds players.  Even the Goko lovers wouldn't complain, because there never would have been a Goko.

2400+ members of f.ds.  If 50% paid $10 a month, that's $144,000 a year for RGG.  No clue what they earn from the Goko contract...

But you are right, and as I mentioned, this is all moot.  It is irrelevant, useless dreaming.  But there's nothing wrong with dreaming.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2014, 04:24:38 pm »
+6

What about having the community buy back the license from Goko?  Let the investors recoup some money.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2014, 04:26:30 pm »
0

What about having the community buy back the license from Goko?  Let the investors recoup some money.

And, uh, how much money is that?
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2014, 04:29:02 pm »
+1

No idea.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2014, 04:35:04 pm »
+6

We should deliver the payment in unused Dominion expansion boxes that are collecting dust in our attics.  Maybe they'll think about that storage solution some more; kill two birds with one stone.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2014, 06:48:34 pm »
0

What about having the community buy back the license from Goko?  Let the investors recoup some money.

This idea has been floated a few times in various places.  I wonder what the cost would be.  One imagines that given $8M seed money, and they claimed to have bought up ~150 licenses (all but one of which are languishing), the max they paid for any one game must have been at the $50k level, especially if they actually paid any of their staff.

So, f.DS people.  What do you think?  Can we raise $50k?
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2014, 06:50:59 pm »
0

So, f.DS people.  What do you think?  Can we raise $50k?

Easy.  Again, with 1200 people, at 50 bucks a pop, that's $60k.  $50 to own a piece of Dominion?  Pretty cool.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2014, 07:17:44 pm »
0

So, f.DS people.  What do you think?  Can we raise $50k?

Easy.  Again, with 1200 people, at 50 bucks a pop, that's $60k.  $50 to own a piece of Dominion?  Pretty cool.

I think a lot of people registered wouldn't see it though.  And not everyone could pay for it.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2014, 07:23:46 pm »
+8

So, f.DS people.  What do you think?  Can we raise $50k?

Easy.  Again, with 1200 people, at 50 bucks a pop, that's $60k.  $50 to own a piece of Dominion?  Pretty cool.

You'd get 10-20 people max paying 50 dollars....i would wager a forum donation campaign wouldnt raise over 2k...

And what would happen when ,'we' did own it?
If theres one thing that is the same every thread on FDS its that nothing is simple

And would people who pay more have more of a say?

What happens if you dont like the direction somebody takes the licence in...can you get your money back?

Sure, iso was cool, ice cool (in the words of the peas), but nothings going to happen until the licence expires with Goko.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2014, 07:53:25 am »
+8

So, f.DS people.  What do you think?  Can we raise $50k?

Easy.  Again, with 1200 people, at 50 bucks a pop, that's $60k.  $50 to own a piece of Dominion?  Pretty cool.

You'd get 10-20 people max paying 50 dollars....i would wager a forum donation campaign wouldnt raise over 2k...

Would you bet 50k?
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2014, 08:40:00 am »
+1

So I have a different idea:  A sit-in.

We pick a time/date... ideally some sort of peak time on a weekend.  We all log in, fill up the lobbies as much as we can... and sit.  Not playing games, not playing adventures, not doing anything other than sitting in the lobby and chatting in their horrendous chat system.  We'd need a critical mass of 100 or more people, with the intent of filling the first two or more lobbies with non-players, eventually causing the games being played in those lobbies to drop to zero.  Ideally, organize people so there are normally 49 sitters in each lobby, so that people coming in will have the chance to see what's going on and wonder why no games are happening.

Obviously, we'll need to tell them what we're doing.

It does little more than send a message.  But perhaps that sort of message is the best we can do.

Better yet everyone creates a request to join or private only game and names the game something specific to the protest. That way, there are games visible that no one can actually play and the game titles express the protest.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2014, 08:50:05 am »
0

So, f.DS people.  What do you think?  Can we raise $50k?

Easy.  Again, with 1200 people, at 50 bucks a pop, that's $60k.  $50 to own a piece of Dominion?  Pretty cool.

You'd get 10-20 people max paying 50 dollars....i would wager a forum donation campaign wouldnt raise over 2k...

Would you bet 50k?

I don't exactly know if this would work (because I don't really know if it fits within this domain), but using kickstarter would allow people to pledge money and unless the goal is met have no obligation to pay anything.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2014, 10:07:52 am »
0

So I have a different idea:  A sit-in.

We pick a time/date... ideally some sort of peak time on a weekend.  We all log in, fill up the lobbies as much as we can... and sit.  Not playing games, not playing adventures, not doing anything other than sitting in the lobby and chatting in their horrendous chat system.  We'd need a critical mass of 100 or more people, with the intent of filling the first two or more lobbies with non-players, eventually causing the games being played in those lobbies to drop to zero.  Ideally, organize people so there are normally 49 sitters in each lobby, so that people coming in will have the chance to see what's going on and wonder why no games are happening.

Obviously, we'll need to tell them what we're doing.

It does little more than send a message.  But perhaps that sort of message is the best we can do.

Better yet everyone creates a request to join or private only game and names the game something specific to the protest. That way, there are games visible that no one can actually play and the game titles express the protest.

Oh, I like this.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2014, 10:09:13 am »
+5

I doubt anyone at goko would actually notice...
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2014, 11:33:04 am »
+5

So, f.DS people.  What do you think?  Can we raise $50k?

Easy.  Again, with 1200 people, at 50 bucks a pop, that's $60k.  $50 to own a piece of Dominion?  Pretty cool.

You'd get 10-20 people max paying 50 dollars....i would wager a forum donation campaign wouldnt raise over 2k...

Would you bet 50k?

Of course not, then someone could just donate 2k straight and win 50k

If this is your idea of a wager than you and I must play poker sometime....
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2014, 03:11:02 pm »
+33

Dominion is a top notch title though, and also the one they launched with, so I wouldn't be surprised if if it was more than 50k.

Only 2k for the whole forum?  I spend $300/year just so you jerks can talk about a game I don't even play anymore ;P.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2014, 03:56:42 pm »
+2

I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of a sit in. I would suggest ~47 of us there, with games made called something like "Sit in Protest" (which can be counted to see what our numbers are like). Ideally we'd take over the main lobbies to do it, as people are most likely to see them.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2014, 04:12:55 pm »
+1

I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of a sit in. I would suggest ~47 of us there, with games made called something like "Sit in Protest" (which can be counted to see what our numbers are like). Ideally we'd take over the main lobbies to do it, as people are most likely to see them.

You can also be in multiple lobbies at once if you use tabbed browsing, so with 40 some people, we could take over any number of the lobbies.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2014, 04:20:23 pm »
+3

Dominion is a top notch title though, and also the one they launched with, so I wouldn't be surprised if if it was more than 50k.

Only 2k for the whole forum?  I spend $300/year just so you jerks can talk about a game I don't even play anymore ;P.

I'm certain we could raise enough to defray that!

Also, the term jerk is politically incorrect; the preferred term is "tact-impaired."
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2014, 04:34:31 pm »
+9

Be careful opening 40 Goko tabs, that will use approximately 30 Tb of RAM.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #61 on: January 07, 2014, 05:22:57 pm »
+1

Dominion is a top notch title though, and also the one they launched with, so I wouldn't be surprised if if it was more than 50k.

Only 2k for the whole forum?  I spend $300/year just so you jerks can talk about a game I don't even play anymore ;P.

You don't play anymore, and your already paying $300 a year for the forum,  so thats you unlikely to contribute then....and this was supposed to show that MORE people would donate?#

I have a tub of Haribo that im willing to donate (currently unopened but by the time this gets off the ground I cannot guarentee anything)
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2014, 08:52:28 pm »
+2

From my limited perspective, I'd think it was possible to work something out. So many people seem to want it. I would personally pay a fair amount of money to play on Isotropic again, I had about 2,500 games before it shut down. I don't expect to ever pay for Goko, when Isotropic shut down I stopped playing Dominion. It wasn't nearly as fun playing on Goko.

I played some in the past week on Goko, just for fun to see what it's like now. The adventures were nice for something different. However, ignoring other issues, it crashed every few games and had serious lag at least once in every game. It made it hard to enjoy playing.

I almost feel like the Goko interface should just be an alternative front-end experience for Isotropic. I know it's not that simple, but people want Isotropic and other people like the graphical interface of Goko.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #63 on: January 07, 2014, 10:31:01 pm »
+5

Long time lurker, first time poster. Let's establish a few things...

1. Any form of "protest" will cause more harm than good. An online sit-in is a laughably inefficient means of communicating a message. And taxing the already strained capabilities of Goko's servers is just going to make things even less stable. Clearly Goko is working with an extremely limited set of resources. Creating another problem for them to fix is just one more roadblock to having a stable server.

2. Strategy is important. SheCantSayNo: there *is* harm in needlessly casting your lot on a long shot bet. Opportunities to galvanize an entire community are rare. It would be a shame to squander that opportunity on something that is, at best, a Hail Mary.

3. Speaking of strategy, it's a fools game to develop a plan entirely contingent on one person's cooperation. We should be planning for the very likely scenario in which Dougz says "Nah, I'm good."

4. Speaking of scenarios, overall there are four possible favorable resolutions: Goko magically fixes every problem and everything gets better. Dougz agrees to relaunch Isotropic. Someone else launches a server comparable to Isotropic. Someone provides Goko with the necessary resources to fix their problems.

5. If we want to ensure the problem is solved, we cannot rely on either Goko or Dougz to solve it for us. This means that the two remaining outcomes: someone launches an Isotropic clone. Or, we provide Goko with the necessary financial/manpower support.

So, all that being said: here's what needs to happen. Instead of raising money blindly, or speculating on the nature of DXV's relationship with Dougz, we need to take the necessary steps to determine that information with certainty.

Firstly, this involves contacting DXV and broaching the subject of creating an Isotropic clone in response to the failure of Goko to honor the Dominion name.

Secondly, this involves contacting Goko and finding out what kind of financial/personnel resources they need to definitively overcome these problems. Do they need a new server? How much does that cost? Do they need to hire more people? How much does that cost?

Once we find out those two things, then we as a community need to put our money where our mouths are. We either pool together the programming capability of the community to create an open source Isotropic clone, or we pool together the financial capability of the community in order to properly fund Goko.

If we can do neither, then our only option is to pray for a white knight to save us.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #64 on: January 07, 2014, 10:48:46 pm »
+4

Dude, anybody creating an isotropic clone has the potential to be sued. Donald certainly isn't going to condone or assist such a plan, and neither is dougz. Nor should they. Nor are we likely to freely give Goko our time or money in order to fix their service that we've already paid for.

Yeah, the way things are right now sucks. You can blame Goko for being incompetent or Jay for swallowing their pitch if you want. But don't ask for their blessing when you plan to create an illegal copy of their game.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #65 on: January 07, 2014, 10:52:56 pm »
+7

Once theory gets around to it, you'll be able to find revised versions of the articles appearing in this thread at SavingDominionStrategy.com
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #66 on: January 07, 2014, 10:57:17 pm »
0

Dude, anybody creating an isotropic clone has the potential to be sued. Donald certainly isn't going to condone or assist such a plan, and neither is dougz. Nor should they.

I agree that is most likely the case.

Quote
Nor are we likely to freely give Goko our time or money in order to fix their service that we've already paid for.

I would rather let the community speak for themselves. I understand the frustration of having already paid money for the product, however, clearly they do not have the financial resources to maintain a stable server. If the community of Dominion online players are not willing to pay the $X necessary in order to ensure a functioning product, then clearly Dominion does not have enough of a dedicated following to warrant an online platform.

I certainly hope that is not the case, but if it is, then this entire conversation is a moot point.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #67 on: January 07, 2014, 10:59:20 pm »
0

Once theory gets around to it, you'll be able to find revised versions of the articles appearing in this thread at SavingDominionStrategy.com

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #68 on: January 07, 2014, 11:09:22 pm »
+2

Nor are we likely to freely give Goko our time or money in order to fix their service that we've already paid for.

I would rather let the community speak for themselves. I understand the frustration of having already paid money for the product, however, clearly they do not have the financial resources to maintain a stable server. If the community of Dominion online players are not willing to pay the $X necessary in order to ensure a functioning product, then clearly Dominion does not have enough of a dedicated following to warrant an online platform.

I certainly hope that is not the case, but if it is, then this entire conversation is a moot point.

Don't get me wrong. I feel like I've gotten my money's worth out of Goko. If it goes down and another, better official online Dominion implementation comes to take its place, I'll probably pay again. If Goko tries to start charging a monthly or annual fee for the game, I will strongly consider paying that (but if the stability and experience didn't improve, I'd let it lapse pretty quickly). What I will not do is offer Goko my money, unsolicited. That's just throwing cash into a black hole with no guarantee it's actually going toward making the service better.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2014, 12:07:15 am »
+2

1. Any form of "protest" will cause more harm than good. An online sit-in is a laughably inefficient means of communicating a message. And taxing the already strained capabilities of Goko's servers is just going to make things even less stable. Clearly Goko is working with an extremely limited set of resources. Creating another problem for them to fix is just one more roadblock to having a stable server

Being unable to handle 50 people chilling in their lobby's is not an additional problem; It's an existing one. I think that this sort of protest might actually get their attention and show that we're organized (for some definition of organized). That is, if their unresponsiveness on getsatisfaction doesn't show a complete apathy/inability to monitor their product. It would be very easy to have enough people sit-in by just logging in as guests in additional tabs. The advantage of such a protest is that if their product was implemented properly, it would have very little effect. I think this action would have to be accompanied by some sort of clear message to goko and/or RGG.

Quote
Nor are we likely to freely give Goko our time or money in order to fix their service that we've already paid for.

I would rather let the community speak for themselves. I understand the frustration of having already paid money for the product, however, clearly they do not have the financial resources to maintain a stable server. If the community of Dominion online players are not willing to pay the $X necessary in order to ensure a functioning product, then clearly Dominion does not have enough of a dedicated following to warrant an online platform.

I certainly hope that is not the case, but if it is, then this entire conversation is a moot point.

It's not just about being willing to pay $X, it's about having any confidence that Goko would use that money effectively. I see very little evidence that they actually know what they're doing with the programming, so I'm not really willing to give them my money with no guarantee.

Once theory gets around to it, you'll be able to find revised versions of the articles appearing in this thread at SavingDominionStrategy.com

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You can edit your avatar under the profile tab. As you can see, we're not all kingdom cards :-P
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2014, 12:38:28 am »
0

@LastFootnote: That's fair, and I'm not suggesting we blindly give money to Goko. The most realistic favorable scenario I see unfolding is that Goko revises its pricing model to a pay to play system. It's better all around; it gives Goko the recurring revenue they need to cover overhead and maintenance. And it doesn't require any faith on our part, because it gives the community actual leverage: they can opt to cancel at any time.

@GeoLib: For the sake of argument, I'll pretend that an online sit-in is an effective means of communication. Once you have their attention and showed them that we're organized, what is the plan? You acknowledge that this would have to be accompanied by a clear message, so what would it be? "We're dissatisfied?" What's the plan for their inevitable, maddeningly predictable response? "We understand your frustration, we are fixing things, things will get better, etc. etc. etc." Unless you have a clear set of rewards and/or consequences laid out, your "protest" will be a waste of what is likely the only opportunity we will have to organize the community. (See above for the issue of not trusting Goko).

Also, I was being tongue in cheek about the Sea Hag. =P
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #71 on: January 08, 2014, 01:52:03 am »
0

@LastFootnote: That's fair, and I'm not suggesting we blindly give money to Goko. The most realistic favorable scenario I see unfolding is that Goko revises its pricing model to a pay to play system. It's better all around; it gives Goko the recurring revenue they need to cover overhead and maintenance. And it doesn't require any faith on our part, because it gives the community actual leverage: they can opt to cancel at any time.

@GeoLib: For the sake of argument, I'll pretend that an online sit-in is an effective means of communication. Once you have their attention and showed them that we're organized, what is the plan? You acknowledge that this would have to be accompanied by a clear message, so what would it be? "We're dissatisfied?" What's the plan for their inevitable, maddeningly predictable response? "We understand your frustration, we are fixing things, things will get better, etc. etc. etc." Unless you have a clear set of rewards and/or consequences laid out, your "protest" will be a waste of what is likely the only opportunity we will have to organize the community. (See above for the issue of not trusting Goko).

Also, I was being tongue in cheek about the Sea Hag. =P

There has been discussion of petitioning RGG and SCSN listed some pretty low-bar demands. I think the potentially most satisfying demand is that they officially sanction and allow the return of isotropic until such a time as they have a functional implementation of dominion. I think that if everything were sanctioned it is far more likely that dougz would be ok with relaunching isotropic (this would be something to check with him first, of course).
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2014, 02:50:38 am »
+1

Dude, anybody creating an isotropic clone has the potential to be sued. Donald certainly isn't going to condone or assist such a plan, and neither is dougz. Nor should they. Nor are we likely to freely give Goko our time or money in order to fix their service that we've already paid for.

Yeah, the way things are right now sucks. You can blame Goko for being incompetent or Jay for swallowing their pitch if you want. But don't ask for their blessing when you plan to create an illegal copy of their game.

If you don't charge money for people to use the thing, you can't really get anything worse than a C&D. IANAL, but several unofficial ways of playing Magic the Gathering online for free would just shut down when they got a C&D and post a message on the home page.  I'd assume Wizards of the Coast has the legal prowess to get money from a lawsuit if they could.
As an aside, if you make a slightly modified Dominion with Silver at 4$, you can play Lab with zero actions, you immediately win upon obtaining 36 points, etc, slight changes that preserve the feel of the game but legally make it untargetable, you can avoid even a C&D and there will be a deckbuilding game on the internet that you can play without paying Sirlin's paypal.
(You could actually change it even less, they say, but I like the safe side)



It's a pretty complicated/weird situation.  Someone in the thread said, "that's capitalism for you", but really, it's not, it's the opposite of capitalism.  Capitalism is the idea of people competing openly, intellectual property law is an exception to capitalism intended to encourage innovation. (Oh my God.  That is the most epic unintended pun I have ever made.) 

If an unofficial implementation came about, Goko probably would be too apathetic and understaffed to even send a C&D at this point.  Unfortunately I think there's a less than 50%, but appreciable chance they would send a C&D, and then you've written a lot of fresh code that you might not be able to use for anything and that kind of sucks balls.

I really think intellectual property laws need to be reformed.  (there's a common factoid that floats around that Star Wars is copyrighted until 2140 or something absurd like that.)  Rather than sweeping reforms though, I think maybe there could be some particular exceptional rule on the books to apply to absurd situations like this one.  Like, "If people pay 20% more than what you're charging, and then don't even send that money to the person who made the bootleg product, then mail it instead to (charity/the creator of the license itself/the national debt/a frozen account that the license holder can seize if they can entice that person to transfer to their service by offering better reliability and features), then the bootleg product can be legitimately used as a substitute."  Or maybe some way to give legal standing to people who are being denied any legal access, whatsoever, to any reasonable service for an intellectual property because the license was sold to someone who is sitting on it.



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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #73 on: January 08, 2014, 02:52:12 am »
0

Really I see no viable financial incentive for Goko to change, short of buying the license grassroots.  They would sell that at a loss, though, probably.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #74 on: January 08, 2014, 05:22:03 am »
+1

As an aside, if you make a slightly modified Dominion with Silver at 4$, you can play Lab with zero actions, you immediately win upon obtaining 36 points, etc, slight changes that preserve the feel of the game but legally make it untargetable, you can avoid even a C&D and there will be a deckbuilding game on the internet that you can play without paying Sirlin's paypal.
(You could actually change it even less, they say, but I like the safe side)
Actually you don't have to change the mechanics at all. However, you would probably have to change the names of the cards and reword the card texts (they can mean the same thing as the original texts as long as the exact words used are different).
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #75 on: January 08, 2014, 05:53:17 am »
+6

Nor are we likely to freely give Goko our time or money in order to fix their service that we've already paid for.
Really? Creating the Salvager seems to fit the description quite well and it's not a closed plugin available only to forum members, every Goko player can install it.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2014, 08:20:50 am »
+3

I keep hearing this sentiment that Goko's problem is one of finances. On a long-term basis that may prove to be true. But for today, as I see it, finances isn't the problem, competency is, or just giving a shit is. When the cash was flowing fast and furious it was still a completely mediocre product full of unacceptable security holes and archaic graphics. One might argue that finances can buy competency but I don't see Goko wanting to waste money on talent and I don't see them giving a shit about the product once a baseline amount of capital has been captured.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2014, 08:38:49 am »
0

Nor are we likely to freely give Goko our time or money in order to fix their service that we've already paid for.
Really? Creating the Salvager seems to fit the description quite well and it's not a closed plugin available only to forum members, every Goko player can install it.

That's not the same at all. As far as I know, Andrew did not first approach Goko and say, "Hey, I'd like to provide you with some free labor. Where should I start?"
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #78 on: January 08, 2014, 12:26:57 pm »
0

As an aside, if you make a slightly modified Dominion with Silver at 4$, you can play Lab with zero actions, you immediately win upon obtaining 36 points, etc, slight changes that preserve the feel of the game but legally make it untargetable, you can avoid even a C&D and there will be a deckbuilding game on the internet that you can play without paying Sirlin's paypal.
(You could actually change it even less, they say, but I like the safe side)

Aren't they different enough from actual Dominion that making normal Dominion would be fine? ;)
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2014, 12:39:57 pm »
0

As an aside, if you make a slightly modified Dominion with Silver at 4$, you can play Lab with zero actions, you immediately win upon obtaining 36 points, etc, slight changes that preserve the feel of the game but legally make it untargetable, you can avoid even a C&D and there will be a deckbuilding game on the internet that you can play without paying Sirlin's paypal.
(You could actually change it even less, they say, but I like the safe side)

Aren't they different enough from actual Dominion that making normal Dominion would be fine? ;)

I can't make sense of your statement.

Technically you can rename every card and just do Dominion, the way U.S. law works, but the court of public opinion might go a bit easier if the game isn't a pure clone.  If I ended up contributing a couple thousand lines of code, I would want something somewhat new to be happening, anyhow.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #80 on: January 08, 2014, 12:46:43 pm »
+12

To put to bed some of the speculation, here is my correspondence with Donald (reposted with his permission)

Quote from: Donald
Quote from: TheExpressicist
My question for you is twofold: firstly, as the creator of Dominion, would you take exception to someone creating and hosting an unlicensed version of Dominion online? And secondly, as a businessman (and presumably bound by various contracts and such), are there any legal or contractual or licensing issues that would prevent such an effort from coming to fruition?

I gave RGG an exclusive license to digital Dominion. So, anything to negotiate would happen between whoever and RGG; I'm not even involved. I suspect RGG gave Goko an exclusive license for whatever time period, and if so there's no-one to negotiate with except Goko. You could try to get RGG to tell you when that contract expires and to convince them not to stay with Goko, but, despite all the problems with Goko, switching to someone else would be real work and have other issues.

It is illegal to make even a free version of someone else's thing without their permission, that seems obvious. I am not too interested in discussing legal stuff; it always tends towards, how much can we screw you over without getting sued?

My advice is, make your own game. And not just some awful Dominion rip-off; make a new game that is inspired by Dominion but actually a new game, like A Few Acres of Snow, or Eminent Domain.

I think that for the moment it still appears like online Dominion could rake in cash someday. As long as that's true there will be people interested in taking over Goko and trying their hand at it. One day those people may succeed; that's your best hope for online Dominion in the short term.

And that's going on as we speak. You say "Goko" as if it's a group that's been with the project from day one, but people have come and gone, the people working on Goko and in charge of it today were not there as recently as a month ago (I don't have an exact date). I have no special reason to believe the current guys are bad so far; I can only wait and see if things start improving or not.

I think that pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of Dougz reviving Isotropic. And it definitely puts the nail in the coffin of creating an Isotropic clone.

It also addresses the issue of licensing. RGG is the exclusive licenseholder, with Goko likely being a temporary exclusive licenseholder.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 12:49:03 pm by TheExpressicist »
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #81 on: January 08, 2014, 12:58:27 pm »
0

Nor are we likely to freely give Goko our time or money in order to fix their service that we've already paid for.
Really? Creating the Salvager seems to fit the description quite well and it's not a closed plugin available only to forum members, every Goko player can install it.

That's not the same at all. As far as I know, Andrew did not first approach Goko and say, "Hey, I'd like to provide you with some free labor. Where should I start?"

Incidentally, although Andrew might not have, that is the approach I am taking (among a few others).
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #83 on: January 08, 2014, 02:03:14 pm »
0

I don't exactly know if this would work (because I don't really know if it fits within this domain), but using kickstarter would allow people to pledge money and unless the goal is met have no obligation to pay anything.

I suspected this thread would be amusing. It did not disappoint.

The idea of raising money to buy the license is interesting. If anyone wants to seriously try the Kickstarter idea, keep in mind that KS takes a portion of the money when the goal is met. If the goal is met and Goko says no, then what do you do with the money? Return it to the contributors? But then you have to take out KS's cut.

While the KS is intriguing, the first step would be to find out how much Goko would sell the license.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #84 on: January 08, 2014, 02:59:08 pm »
0

As an aside, if you make a slightly modified Dominion with Silver at 4$, you can play Lab with zero actions, you immediately win upon obtaining 36 points, etc, slight changes that preserve the feel of the game but legally make it untargetable, you can avoid even a C&D and there will be a deckbuilding game on the internet that you can play without paying Sirlin's paypal.
(You could actually change it even less, they say, but I like the safe side)

Aren't they different enough from actual Dominion that making normal Dominion would be fine? ;)

I can't make sense of your statement.

Usually, if I have a smiley in my statement, you can ignore it.  Or try to laugh at it.
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GeoLib

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #85 on: January 08, 2014, 04:47:29 pm »
0

To put to bed some of the speculation, here is my correspondence with Donald (reposted with his permission)

Quote from: Donald
Quote from: TheExpressicist
My question for you is twofold: firstly, as the creator of Dominion, would you take exception to someone creating and hosting an unlicensed version of Dominion online? And secondly, as a businessman (and presumably bound by various contracts and such), are there any legal or contractual or licensing issues that would prevent such an effort from coming to fruition?

I gave RGG an exclusive license to digital Dominion. So, anything to negotiate would happen between whoever and RGG; I'm not even involved. I suspect RGG gave Goko an exclusive license for whatever time period, and if so there's no-one to negotiate with except Goko. You could try to get RGG to tell you when that contract expires and to convince them not to stay with Goko, but, despite all the problems with Goko, switching to someone else would be real work and have other issues.

It is illegal to make even a free version of someone else's thing without their permission, that seems obvious. I am not too interested in discussing legal stuff; it always tends towards, how much can we screw you over without getting sued?

My advice is, make your own game. And not just some awful Dominion rip-off; make a new game that is inspired by Dominion but actually a new game, like A Few Acres of Snow, or Eminent Domain.

I think that for the moment it still appears like online Dominion could rake in cash someday. As long as that's true there will be people interested in taking over Goko and trying their hand at it. One day those people may succeed; that's your best hope for online Dominion in the short term.

And that's going on as we speak. You say "Goko" as if it's a group that's been with the project from day one, but people have come and gone, the people working on Goko and in charge of it today were not there as recently as a month ago (I don't have an exact date). I have no special reason to believe the current guys are bad so far; I can only wait and see if things start improving or not.

I think that pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of Dougz reviving Isotropic. And it definitely puts the nail in the coffin of creating an Isotropic clone.

It also addresses the issue of licensing. RGG is the exclusive licenseholder, with Goko likely being a temporary exclusive licenseholder.

While this response is nice (in that it's good to hear from Donald), I don't think it's really new information at all. This is exactly the state of affairs I expected. I think that messages to RGG and Goko demanding/requesting (somewhere along that spectrum) that they permit the return of isotropic until goko Dominion is a functional product have the potential for being effective. I think that this could work well with Kirian's suggested sit-in.
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #86 on: January 08, 2014, 05:02:37 pm »
0

While this response is nice (in that it's good to hear from Donald), I don't think it's really new information at all. This is exactly the state of affairs I expected. I think that messages to RGG and Goko demanding/requesting (somewhere along that spectrum) that they permit the return of isotropic until goko Dominion is a functional product have the potential for being effective. I think that this could work well with Kirian's suggested sit-in.

I refer you to the heretofore unanswered sentence from one of my posts. "What's the plan for their inevitable, maddeningly predictable response? "We understand your frustration, we are fixing things, things will get better, etc. etc.""
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #87 on: January 08, 2014, 05:07:08 pm »
0

While this response is nice (in that it's good to hear from Donald), I don't think it's really new information at all. This is exactly the state of affairs I expected. I think that messages to RGG and Goko demanding/requesting (somewhere along that spectrum) that they permit the return of isotropic until goko Dominion is a functional product have the potential for being effective. I think that this could work well with Kirian's suggested sit-in.

I refer you to the heretofore unanswered sentence from one of my posts. "What's the plan for their inevitable, maddeningly predictable response? "We understand your frustration, we are fixing things, things will get better, etc. etc.""

Keep sitting in their lobbies. It's really terribly easy for us. All we need is a few browser tabs in the background
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #88 on: January 08, 2014, 05:27:00 pm »
+3

While this response is nice (in that it's good to hear from Donald), I don't think it's really new information at all. This is exactly the state of affairs I expected. I think that messages to RGG and Goko demanding/requesting (somewhere along that spectrum) that they permit the return of isotropic until goko Dominion is a functional product have the potential for being effective. I think that this could work well with Kirian's suggested sit-in.

I refer you to the heretofore unanswered sentence from one of my posts. "What's the plan for their inevitable, maddeningly predictable response? "We understand your frustration, we are fixing things, things will get better, etc. etc.""
Does that even really impact their revenues negatively?

Would be hilarious if an inactivity kick is added and is the swiftest most reliable feature they add.

Keep sitting in their lobbies. It's really terribly easy for us. All we need is a few browser tabs in the background

Does that even really impact their revenues negatively?

Would be hilarious if an inactivity kick is added and is the swiftest most reliable feature they add.
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #89 on: January 08, 2014, 05:39:11 pm »
+1

Keep sitting in their lobbies. It's really terribly easy for us. All we need is a few browser tabs in the background

Really? I suppose we will have to walk through this, step by step, to its logical endpoint.

At what point do you stop sitting in their lobbies?



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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2014, 05:44:52 pm »
+2

Keep sitting in their lobbies. It's really terribly easy for us. All we need is a few browser tabs in the background

Does that even really impact their revenues negatively?

Would be hilarious if an inactivity kick is added and is the swiftest most reliable feature they add.

I don't know, but I think it's worth further discussion.

Also, people keep saying that there's nothing more they want from those of us who've given them our money. I'm not sure that's entirely true. We are the people that introduce others to Dominion and make goko a place you can find interesting games. The fact that many are starting to give up on online Dominion entirely should matter to them.


Keep sitting in their lobbies. It's really terribly easy for us. All we need is a few browser tabs in the background

Really? I suppose we will have to walk through this, step by step, to its logical endpoint.

At what point do you stop sitting in their lobbies?

That seemed unnecessarily patronizing. Until we give up or they give us some form of functional online dominion. I don't by any means think this is guaranteed to work, but I think it's worth a shot. We can't actually force them to do anything, but we can still protest the fact that they're destroying online Dominion.
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2014, 05:58:27 pm »
+1

You want "destroyed", the past tense verb.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2014, 06:06:08 pm »
+1

That seemed unnecessarily patronizing. Until we give up or they give us some form of functional online dominion

The internet is a poor vehicle for delivering tone. The tone I was going for was "frustrated", because I was frustrated that it took six posts to answer my question. The exchange could have been as simple as:

Q: What's the plan for their inevitable... response ("We understand your frustration... etc. etc.")?
A: [Keep sitting in their lobbies] until we give up.

I will let that "plan" speak for itself.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2014, 06:16:41 pm »
0

Nice work, Expressicist.

Quote from: Donald
It is illegal to make even a free version of someone else's thing without their permission, that seems obvious. I am not too interested in discussing legal stuff; it always tends towards, how much can we screw you over without getting sued?

And it definitely puts the nail in the coffin of creating an Isotropic clone.

I have a few questions about this. As of now there are at least 3 working open source Dominion simulators, one of which has all but a handful of cards implemented. These are essentially free versions of Dominion that facilitate local bot-to-bot play. Are these simulators actually illegal but tolerated because they don't compete with Goko, or are they fully legal? In case of the latter, where is the legal line? With slight modification they could facilitate local human-to-bot play (in a sense they do already because you can program the bots) and local human-to-human play. With quite a bit more effort you can add online functionality, allowing bots and/or humans to compete remotely, which in principle is little different from playing locally, except that it has now become an alternative for Goko.

As for iso clones... I have no moral objections against running an invite-only server where access is granted only to those who own all the sets on Goko (this can in principle be deduced from the gamelogs). Goko won't even discover this unless someone rats.

And then there's the option of going fully rogue, either by hosting the game anonymously from a country where a US C&D order is meaningless, or through some sort of peer-to-peer architecture where, say, the current automatch pool and leaderboard are distributed across all players, and matched players connect directly to each other, storing the logs locally and communicating the result of their match only implicitly through their changed rating. Or maybe you can just use an automatch and leaderboard server, as long as the server doesn't contain the game logic it might well be that only the software would be illegal?
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #94 on: January 08, 2014, 06:18:05 pm »
+4

The internet is a poor vehicle for delivering tone.


"quote author=TheExpressicist "
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #95 on: January 08, 2014, 06:46:35 pm »
+8

I have a few questions about this. As of now there are at least 3 working open source Dominion simulators, one of which has all but a handful of cards implemented. These are essentially free versions of Dominion that facilitate local bot-to-bot play. Are these simulators actually illegal but tolerated because they don't compete with Goko, or are they fully legal? In case of the latter, where is the legal line? With slight modification they could facilitate local human-to-bot play (in a sense they do already because you can program the bots) and local human-to-human play. With quite a bit more effort you can add online functionality, allowing bots and/or humans to compete remotely, which in principle is little different from playing locally, except that it has now become an alternative for Goko.

As for iso clones... I have no moral objections against running an invite-only server where access is granted only to those who own all the sets on Goko (this can in principle be deduced from the gamelogs). Goko won't even discover this unless someone rats.

And then there's the option of going fully rogue, either by hosting the game anonymously from a country where a US C&D order is meaningless, or through some sort of peer-to-peer architecture where, say, the current automatch pool and leaderboard are distributed across all players, and matched players connect directly to each other, storing the logs locally and communicating the result of their match only implicitly through their changed rating. Or maybe you can just use an automatch and leaderboard server, as long as the server doesn't contain the game logic it might well be that only the software would be illegal?

Quote from: Donald
It is illegal to make even a free version of someone else's thing without their permission, that seems obvious. I am not too interested in discussing legal stuff; it always tends towards, how much can we screw you over without getting sued?

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #96 on: January 08, 2014, 07:06:35 pm »
0

That seemed unnecessarily patronizing. Until we give up or they give us some form of functional online dominion

The internet is a poor vehicle for delivering tone. The tone I was going for was "frustrated", because I was frustrated that it took six posts to answer my question. The exchange could have been as simple as:

Q: What's the plan for their inevitable... response ("We understand your frustration... etc. etc.")?
A: [Keep sitting in their lobbies] until we give up.

I will let that "plan" speak for itself.

Yeah, I know. That's why I said "seemed."

I disagree though that this plan is totally useless. We do in fact have some leverage and a petition to RGG and Goko accompanied by some sort of "threat" might actually accomplish something.

What's your plan? Give goko more money with no guarantees?

I will let that "plan" speak for itself.


I have a few questions about this. As of now there are at least 3 working open source Dominion simulators, one of which has all but a handful of cards implemented. These are essentially free versions of Dominion that facilitate local bot-to-bot play. Are these simulators actually illegal but tolerated because they don't compete with Goko, or are they fully legal? In case of the latter, where is the legal line? With slight modification they could facilitate local human-to-bot play (in a sense they do already because you can program the bots) and local human-to-human play. With quite a bit more effort you can add online functionality, allowing bots and/or humans to compete remotely, which in principle is little different from playing locally, except that it has now become an alternative for Goko.

As for iso clones... I have no moral objections against running an invite-only server where access is granted only to those who own all the sets on Goko (this can in principle be deduced from the gamelogs). Goko won't even discover this unless someone rats.

And then there's the option of going fully rogue, either by hosting the game anonymously from a country where a US C&D order is meaningless, or through some sort of peer-to-peer architecture where, say, the current automatch pool and leaderboard are distributed across all players, and matched players connect directly to each other, storing the logs locally and communicating the result of their match only implicitly through their changed rating. Or maybe you can just use an automatch and leaderboard server, as long as the server doesn't contain the game logic it might well be that only the software would be illegal?

Quote from: Donald
It is illegal to make even a free version of someone else's thing without their permission, that seems obvious. I am not too interested in discussing legal stuff; it always tends towards, how much can we screw you over without getting sued?

Yeah. Not a big fan of this approach for moral reasons. I'd much rather interact with Goko and RGG directly and work out some sort of agreement.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #97 on: January 08, 2014, 07:07:46 pm »
+1

I have a few questions about this. As of now there are at least 3 working open source Dominion simulators, one of which has all but a handful of cards implemented. These are essentially free versions of Dominion that facilitate local bot-to-bot play. Are these simulators actually illegal but tolerated because they don't compete with Goko, or are they fully legal? In case of the latter, where is the legal line? With slight modification they could facilitate local human-to-bot play (in a sense they do already because you can program the bots) and local human-to-human play. With quite a bit more effort you can add online functionality, allowing bots and/or humans to compete remotely, which in principle is little different from playing locally, except that it has now become an alternative for Goko.

As for iso clones... I have no moral objections against running an invite-only server where access is granted only to those who own all the sets on Goko (this can in principle be deduced from the gamelogs). Goko won't even discover this unless someone rats.

And then there's the option of going fully rogue, either by hosting the game anonymously from a country where a US C&D order is meaningless, or through some sort of peer-to-peer architecture where, say, the current automatch pool and leaderboard are distributed across all players, and matched players connect directly to each other, storing the logs locally and communicating the result of their match only implicitly through their changed rating. Or maybe you can just use an automatch and leaderboard server, as long as the server doesn't contain the game logic it might well be that only the software would be illegal?

Quote from: Donald
It is illegal to make even a free version of someone else's thing without their permission, that seems obvious. I am not too interested in discussing legal stuff; it always tends towards, how much can we screw you over without getting sued?

It shouldn't be too surprising that different people have different interests. Donald is not the leader of the Soviet Union and neither of us are living in it, so we're free to discuss what we want without his approval.

While my interests certainly do not include maximally screwing anyone over without getting sued, I am interested in finding a satisfying trade-off between maximizing my enjoyment of Dominion and taking into account the interests of others. That's why I don't see fully going rogue as the best option, but neither is the current situation, and I somewhat like the private server idea. I'm curious as to what suggestions others might have.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 07:16:47 pm by SheCantSayNo »
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #98 on: January 08, 2014, 07:16:36 pm »
+2

WanderingWinder hit the nail on the head here. Another pertinent quote:

Q: What people discuss the precise degree to which I can be ripped off without being able to sue?
A: My enemies!

Donald has been more present and available than any other author I can think of. Complaining about this sort of thing and suggesting unofficial versions of any sort is a huge pet peeve of his, whether or not you think that's reasonable. I'm not ready to slap him in the face just to scratch my first-world-problem itch that I currently can't play Dominion online.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #99 on: January 08, 2014, 07:35:38 pm »
0

It's a pretty complicated/weird situation.  Someone in the thread said, "that's capitalism for you", but really, it's not, it's the opposite of capitalism.  Capitalism is the idea of people competing openly, intellectual property law is an exception to capitalism intended to encourage innovation. (Oh my God.  That is the most epic unintended pun I have ever made.) 

Actually, intellectual property law is a pretty straightforward consequence of capitalism. It creates new merchandise and market, which basically means more overall capital exists, which is the ultimate goal of the system (maybe not the ultimate goal of some humans using the system, but the system does not care about that). Derivatives are another good example of creating more capital while screwing over humanity.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #100 on: January 08, 2014, 07:54:15 pm »
+6

Why do derivatives screw over humanity?  If anything, integrals are the real culprits!

More seriously, why do you think derivatives screw over humanity?  That's like saying that contracts screw over humanity. 
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #101 on: January 08, 2014, 07:54:48 pm »
0

WanderingWinder hit the nail on the head here. Another pertinent quote:

Q: What people discuss the precise degree to which I can be ripped off without being able to sue?
A: My enemies!

Donald has been more present and available than any other author I can think of. Complaining about this sort of thing and suggesting unofficial versions of any sort is a huge pet peeve of his, whether or not you think that's reasonable. I'm not ready to slap him in the face just to scratch my first-world-problem itch that I currently can't play Dominion online.

Well, if he's so sensitive that he's going to make me his enemy just for discussing some things he doesn't like, I'm more than happy to fight--and beat--him over a bunch of games of Dominion, either on Goko (if it runs) or a private server ;)
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #102 on: January 08, 2014, 08:17:15 pm »
+5

WanderingWinder hit the nail on the head here. Another pertinent quote:

Q: What people discuss the precise degree to which I can be ripped off without being able to sue?
A: My enemies!

Donald has been more present and available than any other author I can think of. Complaining about this sort of thing and suggesting unofficial versions of any sort is a huge pet peeve of his, whether or not you think that's reasonable. I'm not ready to slap him in the face just to scratch my first-world-problem itch that I currently can't play Dominion online.

Well, if he's so sensitive that he's going to make me his enemy just for discussing some things he doesn't like, I'm more than happy to fight--and beat--him over a bunch of games of Dominion, either on Goko (if it runs) or a private server ;)

Let's say you live in a house with a friend of yours. This guy's been a really good friend to you for years. He drives you around when your car breaks down, lets you borrow his stuff anytime you want, and always remembers your birthday. All he asks is that you don't microwave Velveeta in the house. The smell makes him physically ill. But you do it anyway, because fuck him! There's no law against making nachos. It's your birthright, damn it!

tl;dr: You're not wrong, Walter. You're just an asshole.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #103 on: January 08, 2014, 08:20:14 pm »
+4

I'm going to extend that "no Velveeta" rule to my house as well if I could
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #104 on: January 08, 2014, 08:23:24 pm »
+2

Donald has been more present and available than any other author I can think of. Complaining about this sort of thing and suggesting unofficial versions of any sort is a huge pet peeve of his, whether or not you think that's reasonable. I'm not ready to slap him in the face just to scratch my first-world-problem itch that I currently can't play Dominion online.

Donald X. seems to have a lot of pet peeves. Since he no longer comes here, I'm much less inclined to care.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #105 on: January 08, 2014, 08:33:27 pm »
+4

WanderingWinder hit the nail on the head here. Another pertinent quote:

Q: What people discuss the precise degree to which I can be ripped off without being able to sue?
A: My enemies!

Donald has been more present and available than any other author I can think of. Complaining about this sort of thing and suggesting unofficial versions of any sort is a huge pet peeve of his, whether or not you think that's reasonable. I'm not ready to slap him in the face just to scratch my first-world-problem itch that I currently can't play Dominion online.

Well, if he's so sensitive that he's going to make me his enemy just for discussing some things he doesn't like, I'm more than happy to fight--and beat--him over a bunch of games of Dominion, either on Goko (if it runs) or a private server ;)

Let's say you live in a house with a friend of yours. This guy's been a really good friend to you for years. He drives you around when your car breaks down, lets you borrow his stuff anytime you want, and always remembers your birthday. All he asks is that you don't microwave Velveeta in the house. The smell makes him physically ill. But you do it anyway, because fuck him! There's no law against making nachos. It's your birthright, damn it!

tl;dr: You're not wrong, Walter. You're just an asshole.

Except that I don't have such a close relationship with DXV at all. I only became really active on the forums after he had left, and from what I'd been reading around then he seemed to react really butt-hurt and childish in response to legitimate criticism about Goko, even demanding the forums to be closed for a while (wtf?), so I don't even particularly like him as a person. He's much more like Bill Gates to me than like a close friend.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #106 on: January 08, 2014, 08:40:37 pm »
0

This seems like not the most productive direction for this thread. Can we at least try talking to goko and RGG before we pursue other options?
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #107 on: January 08, 2014, 08:49:30 pm »
+2

Except that I don't have such a close relationship with DXV at all. I only became really active on the forums after he had left, and from what I'd been reading around then he seemed to react really butt-hurt and childish in response to legitimate criticism about Goko, even demanding the forums to be closed for a while (wtf?), so I don't even particularly like him as a person. He's much more like Bill Gates to me than like a close friend.

That's a harsh comparison. DXV's creation is awesome.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #108 on: January 08, 2014, 08:57:22 pm »
+1

Except that I don't have such a close relationship with DXV at all. I only became really active on the forums after he had left, and from what I'd been reading around then he seemed to react really butt-hurt and childish in response to legitimate criticism about Goko, even demanding the forums to be closed for a while (wtf?), so I don't even particularly like him as a person. He's much more like Bill Gates to me than like a close friend.

That's a harsh comparison. DXV's creation is awesome.

A harsh comparison? I think Bill Gates has done and is doing far more for mankind than almost anyone who ever lived. Both in terms of revolutionizing personal computing and the charity work he's doing nowadays.

But this is getting really off topic now. Time to sleep ;)
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #109 on: January 08, 2014, 09:40:35 pm »
+1

A harsh comparison? I think Bill Gates has done and is doing far more for mankind than almost anyone who ever lived. Both in terms of revolutionizing personal computing and the charity work he's doing nowadays.

I don't know about the charity part, but I doubt something can compensate for his crappy operating system.
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #110 on: January 08, 2014, 10:03:32 pm »
0

A harsh comparison? I think Bill Gates has done and is doing far more for mankind than almost anyone who ever lived. Both in terms of revolutionizing personal computing and the charity work he's doing nowadays.

I don't know about the charity part, but I doubt something can compensate for his crappy operating system.
For the sake of pithy metaphors, it is pretty clear that a reference to Bill Gates is intended to be interpreted with the assumption that the operating with years of dominating market share doesn't suck rather than interpreted based on a minority opinion that Windows is the best bottled water sale in the history of humanity.

Maybe it is the best bottled water sale in the history of humanity, but don't pretend you don't follow the metaphor.

EDIT: simile, technically.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 10:04:50 pm by popsofctown »
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #111 on: January 08, 2014, 10:16:46 pm »
0

It's a pretty complicated/weird situation.  Someone in the thread said, "that's capitalism for you", but really, it's not, it's the opposite of capitalism.  Capitalism is the idea of people competing openly, intellectual property law is an exception to capitalism intended to encourage innovation. (Oh my God.  That is the most epic unintended pun I have ever made.) 

Actually, intellectual property law is a pretty straightforward consequence of capitalism. It creates new merchandise and market, which basically means more overall capital exists, which is the ultimate goal of the system (maybe not the ultimate goal of some humans using the system, but the system does not care about that). Derivatives are another good example of creating more capital while screwing over humanity.
Not really seeing intellectual property law as a straightforward consequence of capitalism.  Capitalism exists in an anarchist state, "I'll sell you a handgun for 30 biscuits instead of 50 biscuits".  IP law doesn't. If you sell your handgun to anyone you're not keeping in activity, it can be reverse engineered whether you like it or not, and that goes for most products.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #112 on: January 08, 2014, 10:23:56 pm »
+1

Guys I just want to reliably play Dominion online because I have a hard time finding IRL people to play with at the same time and place as me.  I own all the sets.  I'm willing to pay money to do this.

I like pro-rankings/leaderboards and tournaments and automatching according to preferences.  I'm willing to pay some more money for those too.

Does anyone know what I can do or where on the internet I should go to do this?
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #113 on: January 08, 2014, 10:26:23 pm »
+1

I told you guys Skypinion was the future but no one would follow me on the journey.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #114 on: January 08, 2014, 10:27:54 pm »
0

I told you guys Skypinion was the future but no one would follow me on the journey.

I'm down.  Do we have to set up all the cards manually to do it, or is there an appropriate piece of software that we can use to make it much more efficient?
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #115 on: January 08, 2014, 10:38:37 pm »
+3

Not to interrupt this wonderfully exciting conversation, but does any one else find it interesting that the first yes has over 70% of the votes?
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #116 on: January 08, 2014, 10:44:26 pm »
+1

Oh now you're down.  Months ago I couldn't get a peep out of anyone but Young Nick.  Who doesn't come round these parts anymore it seems.


When he and I experimented it was easiest to play turns and then verbally log them.  "I play Walled Village into Woodcutter Woodcutter, then use two Coppers to buy three Fool's Gold".  Then you remove 3 FGs from the pile on your side of the country so that pile depletion is tracked accurately.  Optionally this pile allows you full deck tracking if both players are cool with that sort of thing.

Ironically, megaturns are the easiest kind of turn to resolve by Skype, because the entire event can be summarized by indicating that your entire deck will be reshuffled, and what the trashes and gains were.


There is no software to make it much more efficient yet.  I suppose you could set something up that does pile control, and set up a system that lists a ten card kingdom of proxies on the computer screen so that kingdom reselection is faster, if speed would outweigh the confusion.
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soulnet

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #117 on: January 09, 2014, 09:52:01 am »
+1

Not really seeing intellectual property law as a straightforward consequence of capitalism.  Capitalism exists in an anarchist state, "I'll sell you a handgun for 30 biscuits instead of 50 biscuits".  IP law doesn't. If you sell your handgun to anyone you're not keeping in activity, it can be reverse engineered whether you like it or not, and that goes for most products.

The existence of private property and commerce is not the same as capitalism. Anyway, we are fully derailing from the topic into RSP, so maybe we should just stop. Political debate is entertaining, but thread hijacking is not.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #118 on: January 09, 2014, 09:55:06 am »
0

Why do derivatives screw over humanity?  If anything, integrals are the real culprits!

More seriously, why do you think derivatives screw over humanity?  That's like saying that contracts screw over humanity.

They don't, but people make bad investment decisions based on them.  People also made bad investment decisions before derivatives came around.  I think the fallout of the media coverage from the recent financial crisis were that derivatives were the "fault" that caused the crisis.
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Ozle

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #119 on: January 09, 2014, 10:04:31 am »
+10

WanderingWinder hit the nail on the head here. Another pertinent quote:

Q: What people discuss the precise degree to which I can be ripped off without being able to sue?
A: My enemies!

Donald has been more present and available than any other author I can think of. Complaining about this sort of thing and suggesting unofficial versions of any sort is a huge pet peeve of his, whether or not you think that's reasonable. I'm not ready to slap him in the face just to scratch my first-world-problem itch that I currently can't play Dominion online.

Well, if he's so sensitive that he's going to make me his enemy just for discussing some things he doesn't like, I'm more than happy to fight--and beat--him over a bunch of games of Dominion, either on Goko (if it runs) or a private server ;)

Let's say you live in a house with a friend of yours. This guy's been a really good friend to you for years. He drives you around when your car breaks down, lets you borrow his stuff anytime you want, and always remembers your birthday. All he asks is that you don't microwave Velveeta in the house. The smell makes him physically ill. But you do it anyway, because fuck him! There's no law against making nachos. It's your birthright, damn it!

tl;dr: You're not wrong, Walter. You're just an asshole.

Except that I don't have such a close relationship with DXV at all. I only became really active on the forums after he had left, and from what I'd been reading around then he seemed to react really butt-hurt and childish in response to legitimate criticism about Goko, even demanding the forums to be closed for a while (wtf?), so I don't even particularly like him as a person. He's much more like Bill Gates to me than like a close friend.


Firstly, the shutting of the forums was a joke.
Secondly: There is no secondly

Fourthly: Reacting like that would be childish and 'butt-hurt' (Seriously? What is this?) would be a bit overeacting if it was just one comment. But it wasnt, there was a continous barrage of comments, and they were just the ones in here, I would imagine BGG did similarly (but at a much less cool level of course), and then he would have got a lot more sent to him in private. I would imagine that even before Goko he got so many messages over Dominion that he tried to answer as best he can

All for something that actually he has no control over since he signed the rights over to RGG.

Donalds problem was that he did become personally attached to this community, he talked and laughed and joked along with us. Then came a barrage of criticism, he tried to help out as best he could, made suggestions to us, to Goko and passed comments on to relevant parties. And then eventually he had enough of the complaing and whinging and decided he didn't need the hassle in his life.

If I ever get anything published im staying well away from Fansites, especially ones with raving fanatacists like us!

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soulnet

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #120 on: January 09, 2014, 10:07:55 am »
0

They don't, but people make bad investment decisions based on them.  People also made bad investment decisions before derivatives came around.  I think the fallout of the media coverage from the recent financial crisis were that derivatives were the "fault" that caused the crisis.

I actually think all financial instruments that are not tied to real stuff (with a broad interpretation of real stuff to include services) are screwing over humanity. Derivatives are just a notable example. It is just gambling but the people you are betting against are the ones that control the lottery numbers.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #121 on: January 09, 2014, 10:10:19 am »
0

Buy Pork Bellies and Orange Juice!
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #122 on: January 09, 2014, 10:13:44 am »
+1

I'm a little unsure about the statement someone quoted from DXV that even a free version of someone else's work is illegal without their permission.  I can't imagine it being illegal for me to cut my own Dominion cards for my own use and play them with my friends, as long as I don't try to make money off of it.  What part could be illegal?  Are the cards themselves contraband because I took someone else's idea to make them?  Okay, fine, suppose I don't make the cards and my friends and I just play by writing everything down on a piece of paper. (Say we use a random number generator to resolve shuffles.)   Is the paper illegal?  Suppose my friends and I have eidetic memory and can simply reproduce the entire game state in our heads, and play by just communicating.  Is this action illegal? 

Surely this isn't what he meant.  He probably meant that if a free version can compete with the official (costing money) version, then there should be laws to protect the market interest of the official version.  But is this really true?  If the free version competes with the official version, then the official version, well, isn't competitive enough.  It has to be made better. 

I'm sure we could all make our own standard 52-card playing cards, but they just wouldn't feel the same and Spades or Hearts or whatever wouldn't be as enjoyable.  So we spend a couple dollars because it's worth it.  We buy Dominion because (1) It's more valuable to us than the time, effort, and result of recreating our own, and (2) We like the product so we want to support those who made it so that they will continue to make good products. 

I think that creating a virtual copy of Dominion (like Isotropic was) has to be legal under any sensible laws.  In fact, I would probably argue that doing so is a good thing.  If the "official" version is not as good as the user-made version, then a law shouldn't protect its existence.  The pressure of people using the user-made version instead of the official version should force the official version to become better.  Goko is allowed to exist in a state that is unsatisfactory to the Dominion fan base precisely because there is no competition to Goko.   As long as the user-made version isn't charging money (because then the copyright owners should be able to sue for that revenue), I don't see the problem.  I also don't see how anyone is getting screwed over.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 10:27:44 am by Witherweaver »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #123 on: January 09, 2014, 10:23:55 am »
+1

They don't, but people make bad investment decisions based on them.  People also made bad investment decisions before derivatives came around.  I think the fallout of the media coverage from the recent financial crisis were that derivatives were the "fault" that caused the crisis.

I actually think all financial instruments that are not tied to real stuff (with a broad interpretation of real stuff to include services) are screwing over humanity. Derivatives are just a notable example. It is just gambling but the people you are betting against are the ones that control the lottery numbers.

Derivatives are tied to real stuff, and it's not just gambling.  Okay, yes, in some cases there is a lot of gambling going on, but in many cases they're fully justified.  Imagine, for instance, you are a farmer that grows corn.  Your profit (and livelihood) is entirely tied upon the price of corn.  You are naturally in a "gambling" position, because at the beginning of each harvest season you're betting that the price of corn after the harvest will be high enough to justify whatever overhead for growing it that you're putting into it in the present.  But if the price of corn were to fall dramatically after harvest season, you could face extreme (perhaps unrecoverable) losses.  So you can choose to hedge this bet by taking up an position in a derivatives contract.  This way you can essentially lock in a price for the future for some overhead cost.  Your overall potential profit will decrease, but your risk has decreased.  It's a pretty sensible thing to do and there is a natural need for it.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #124 on: January 09, 2014, 10:32:35 am »
+1

Buy Pork Bellies and Orange Juice!

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #125 on: January 09, 2014, 10:45:05 am »
+3

That's like saying that contracts screw over humanity.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #126 on: January 09, 2014, 10:50:50 am »
0

Derivatives are tied to real stuff, and it's not just gambling.  Okay, yes, in some cases there is a lot of gambling going on, but in many cases they're fully justified.  Imagine, for instance, you are a farmer that grows corn.  Your profit (and livelihood) is entirely tied upon the price of corn.  You are naturally in a "gambling" position, because at the beginning of each harvest season you're betting that the price of corn after the harvest will be high enough to justify whatever overhead for growing it that you're putting into it in the present.  But if the price of corn were to fall dramatically after harvest season, you could face extreme (perhaps unrecoverable) losses.  So you can choose to hedge this bet by taking up an position in a derivatives contract.  This way you can essentially lock in a price for the future for some overhead cost.  Your overall potential profit will decrease, but your risk has decreased.  It's a pretty sensible thing to do and there is a natural need for it.

To sustain what I said earlier about not hijacking the thread, I will only say this: I disagree and I am glad that you put your arguments in a clear way, because I do understand them.

Also, I hate Goko because they took away my enjoyment of playing Dominion online. I never paid because they never showed that they could provide a nice service consistently. I would pay to someone who provides such a service. I would pay Isotropic and I would pay any other company that gives a valuable service. I will continue to try to play for free on Goko until they either deserve my money (a lot would need to change) or the discontinue the possibility to do it.

I agree with the fact that there is nothing anyone can do if someone codes and runs a Dominion online server hosted outside the US and perferrably outside the EU as well. If its peer-to-peer, it would be even better. The music and film industry spent a lot of money and time that all the people interested in Dominion do not have to shut down unlicensed downloads and could not. Photocopied books exist everywhere despite the laws against them, and even more so with PDF books donwloadable from unofficial sites. Some things you just cannot stop.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #127 on: January 09, 2014, 11:01:21 am »
0

Derivatives are tied to real stuff, and it's not just gambling.  Okay, yes, in some cases there is a lot of gambling going on, but in many cases they're fully justified.  Imagine, for instance, you are a farmer that grows corn.  Your profit (and livelihood) is entirely tied upon the price of corn.  You are naturally in a "gambling" position, because at the beginning of each harvest season you're betting that the price of corn after the harvest will be high enough to justify whatever overhead for growing it that you're putting into it in the present.  But if the price of corn were to fall dramatically after harvest season, you could face extreme (perhaps unrecoverable) losses.  So you can choose to hedge this bet by taking up an position in a derivatives contract.  This way you can essentially lock in a price for the future for some overhead cost.  Your overall potential profit will decrease, but your risk has decreased.  It's a pretty sensible thing to do and there is a natural need for it.

To sustain what I said earlier about not hijacking the thread, I will only say this: I disagree and I am glad that you put your arguments in a clear way, because I do understand them.

Okay good point about hijacking. 
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #128 on: January 09, 2014, 11:17:12 am »
+9

To put to bed some of the speculation, here is my correspondence with Donald (reposted with his permission)

Quote from: Donald
Quote from: TheExpressicist
My question for you is twofold: firstly, as the creator of Dominion, would you take exception to someone creating and hosting an unlicensed version of Dominion online? And secondly, as a businessman (and presumably bound by various contracts and such), are there any legal or contractual or licensing issues that would prevent such an effort from coming to fruition?

I gave RGG an exclusive license to digital Dominion. So, anything to negotiate would happen between whoever and RGG; I'm not even involved. I suspect RGG gave Goko an exclusive license for whatever time period, and if so there's no-one to negotiate with except Goko. You could try to get RGG to tell you when that contract expires and to convince them not to stay with Goko, but, despite all the problems with Goko, switching to someone else would be real work and have other issues.

It is illegal to make even a free version of someone else's thing without their permission, that seems obvious. I am not too interested in discussing legal stuff; it always tends towards, how much can we screw you over without getting sued?

My advice is, make your own game. And not just some awful Dominion rip-off; make a new game that is inspired by Dominion but actually a new game, like A Few Acres of Snow, or Eminent Domain.

I think that for the moment it still appears like online Dominion could rake in cash someday. As long as that's true there will be people interested in taking over Goko and trying their hand at it. One day those people may succeed; that's your best hope for online Dominion in the short term.

And that's going on as we speak. You say "Goko" as if it's a group that's been with the project from day one, but people have come and gone, the people working on Goko and in charge of it today were not there as recently as a month ago (I don't have an exact date). I have no special reason to believe the current guys are bad so far; I can only wait and see if things start improving or not.

I think that pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of Dougz reviving Isotropic. And it definitely puts the nail in the coffin of creating an Isotropic clone.

It also addresses the issue of licensing. RGG is the exclusive licenseholder, with Goko likely being a temporary exclusive licenseholder.

Oh good, so we did decide to waste his time on this again. I continue to be surprised at his willingness to be civil to people who are beating the everloving fuck out of a dead horse, where that dead horse is "Hi, I'd like to know under what circumstances you would tolerate me blatantly ripping off your signature game online."
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Witherweaver

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #129 on: January 09, 2014, 11:30:49 am »
+2

To put to bed some of the speculation, here is my correspondence with Donald (reposted with his permission)

Quote from: Donald
Quote from: TheExpressicist
My question for you is twofold: firstly, as the creator of Dominion, would you take exception to someone creating and hosting an unlicensed version of Dominion online? And secondly, as a businessman (and presumably bound by various contracts and such), are there any legal or contractual or licensing issues that would prevent such an effort from coming to fruition?

I gave RGG an exclusive license to digital Dominion. So, anything to negotiate would happen between whoever and RGG; I'm not even involved. I suspect RGG gave Goko an exclusive license for whatever time period, and if so there's no-one to negotiate with except Goko. You could try to get RGG to tell you when that contract expires and to convince them not to stay with Goko, but, despite all the problems with Goko, switching to someone else would be real work and have other issues.

It is illegal to make even a free version of someone else's thing without their permission, that seems obvious. I am not too interested in discussing legal stuff; it always tends towards, how much can we screw you over without getting sued?

My advice is, make your own game. And not just some awful Dominion rip-off; make a new game that is inspired by Dominion but actually a new game, like A Few Acres of Snow, or Eminent Domain.

I think that for the moment it still appears like online Dominion could rake in cash someday. As long as that's true there will be people interested in taking over Goko and trying their hand at it. One day those people may succeed; that's your best hope for online Dominion in the short term.

And that's going on as we speak. You say "Goko" as if it's a group that's been with the project from day one, but people have come and gone, the people working on Goko and in charge of it today were not there as recently as a month ago (I don't have an exact date). I have no special reason to believe the current guys are bad so far; I can only wait and see if things start improving or not.

I think that pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of Dougz reviving Isotropic. And it definitely puts the nail in the coffin of creating an Isotropic clone.

It also addresses the issue of licensing. RGG is the exclusive licenseholder, with Goko likely being a temporary exclusive licenseholder.

Oh good, so we did decide to waste his time on this again. I continue to be surprised at his willingness to be civil to people who are beating the everloving fuck out of a dead horse, where that dead horse is "Hi, I'd like to know under what circumstances you would tolerate me blatantly ripping off your signature game online."

The situation doesn't seem that way to me.  The situation seems more like, you have a bunch of people that really like this game and think it's great.  They have spent money on it, and they would be willing to spend more money on a viable way to play it (online) in the future.  Such a viable way does not exist, so people are looking to find solutions. 

I actually don't see how how making an online version of Dominion that doesn't charge money would be ripping off at all, actually.  It's simply an implementation for use within a community.  If it were marketed to make money, then I would see a violation.
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #130 on: January 09, 2014, 11:53:07 am »
0

Firstly, the shutting of the forums was a joke.
In context, no, it wasn't a joke.  He suggested shutting down the forums for a couple days.  If he wanted to make a joke he would use hyperbole and go for a month.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #131 on: January 09, 2014, 12:09:42 pm »
0

RSP, please.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #132 on: January 09, 2014, 01:07:35 pm »
+13

Hello

Not that this thread needs another person lashing out at goko, however I've come out of years of lurking to add my support.

I play IRL every week, have been for 2 years now.  Love the forum and its members and have really sharpened my game because of all of you and your insight.

I loved Isotropic and stopped playing online when it was shut down.  I couldn't take it anymore and recently bought all the cards on goko a week or two ago.  I have obviously been frustrated with my decision to give goko my money especially when it seems I waited for the worst time to get back into dominion online.

Well I thought I had a point to this message but I don't have any computer/coding skills or legal advice.  I guess I was just inclined for you all to hear another voice.  I really don't want online dominion to fade away.  Not just because I love the game but I have really enjoyed this forum and would hate to see it fade too....

-Bear
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cluckyb

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #133 on: January 09, 2014, 01:19:09 pm »
+1

The situation doesn't seem that way to me.  The situation seems more like, you have a bunch of people that really like this game and think it's great.  They have spent money on it, and they would be willing to spend more money on a viable way to play it (online) in the future.  Such a viable way does not exist, so people are looking to find solutions. 

I actually don't see how how making an online version of Dominion that doesn't charge money would be ripping off at all, actually.  It's simply an implementation for use within a community.  If it were marketed to make money, then I would see a violation.

The first half is all reasonable and cool. The issue is that there aren't any great solutions beyond reaching out to RGG.

But saying "I don't see how creating a free version of your game for people to be able to play without giving you money isn't ripping you off" is completely ridiculous. Sure you can try and argue that a free online implementation causes more physical sales, but it isn't your IP so isn't your call to make.
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #134 on: January 09, 2014, 01:37:38 pm »
0

Oh good, so we did decide to waste his time on this again. I continue to be surprised at his willingness to be civil to people who are beating the everloving fuck out of a dead horse, where that dead horse is "Hi, I'd like to know under what circumstances you would tolerate me blatantly ripping off your signature game online."

Granted I'm always amused by the lengths people will go to and the contrivances they will create in order to feel even a modicum of superiority over a stranger.

But man, this is a strettttch. Nice try though.

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Witherweaver

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #135 on: January 09, 2014, 01:41:02 pm »
0

The situation doesn't seem that way to me.  The situation seems more like, you have a bunch of people that really like this game and think it's great.  They have spent money on it, and they would be willing to spend more money on a viable way to play it (online) in the future.  Such a viable way does not exist, so people are looking to find solutions. 

I actually don't see how how making an online version of Dominion that doesn't charge money would be ripping off at all, actually.  It's simply an implementation for use within a community.  If it were marketed to make money, then I would see a violation.

The first half is all reasonable and cool. The issue is that there aren't any great solutions beyond reaching out to RGG.

But saying "I don't see how creating a free version of your game for people to be able to play without giving you money isn't ripping you off" is completely ridiculous. Sure you can try and argue that a free online implementation causes more physical sales, but it isn't your IP so isn't your call to make.

But the thing is this: either the free version is competitive with the official version, or it is not.  If it is competitive with the official version, then the official version has to improve to make people want to spend money on it.  If it is not competitive with the official version, then people will pay money for the official version. 

I can't see how someone creating their own version of something for their own personal use is a violation.  Like I mentioned before, we could all cut out our own Dominion cards out of paper/cardboard and play a homemade version.  (Notably, we don't do this, because it's just more fun to play with the real stuff.)  I don't see how this is a violation, either legally or morally.  Of course an online version can have a much greater impact, and one would probably argue that's where the difference is, but fundamentally it seems the same idea.

To me, "ripping someone off" has to be taking someone's idea and selling it as your own, for profit.  I don't see simply taking someone's idea and using it as the same thing.. because it's a good idea, so it should be used.  It just shouldn't be stolen.  The distinction for me is between use for profit and just-for-personal use.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #136 on: January 09, 2014, 01:46:32 pm »
+3

But putting up a free server is not "just-for-personal use". The fact that it's also not for profit is immeterial.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 01:56:24 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #137 on: January 09, 2014, 01:50:53 pm »
+1

Oh good, so we did decide to waste his time on this again. I continue to be surprised at his willingness to be civil to people who are beating the everloving fuck out of a dead horse, where that dead horse is "Hi, I'd like to know under what circumstances you would tolerate me blatantly ripping off your signature game online."

Granted I'm always amused by the lengths people will go to and the contrivances they will create in order to feel even a modicum of superiority over a stranger.

But man, this is a strettttch. Nice try though.

Dude, you came here all like, "We should bug Donald about this." And we were all like, "No, he has no control over it and we already know what he'll say." And then you did it anyway. So don't give us your snide "superiority over a stranger" bullshit. You're the one who didn't listen to reason.

In other news, I need to stop posting on 2 hours of sleep.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #138 on: January 09, 2014, 02:00:46 pm »
0

But putting up a free server is not "just-for-personal use". The fact that it's also not for profit it immeterial.

So "personal" is misleading in this context.. I mean not for sale to the public.  But if you made a version on your local PC and didn't make it public, just for you to play (say against a bot), you probably wouldn't consider this a problem because it doesn't compete with an official online implementation. (Or I could be wrong on this point, but continuing...) If you then decided you wanted to play against your roommate and extended  the code to let you have two real players, this still wouldn't compete.  If you extended it further and hosted LAN parties with your friends, then extended it further hosted it online.. at what point does the violation come?  I'm under the impression that the (perceived) violation is not from the principle of someone implementing their own version of the game, but rather from the potential loss of profit from the official online implementation that could be caused by a free server.

But then we're back to my other point.. if the official online version is vastly inferior to a free version, then this should force the official version to become better so that people will be willing to pay for it.  If no one is willing to pay for it, no matter how good it is, then it doesn't seem like a money-making enterprise anyway.
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #139 on: January 09, 2014, 02:04:02 pm »
0

Oh good, so we did decide to waste his time on this again. I continue to be surprised at his willingness to be civil to people who are beating the everloving fuck out of a dead horse, where that dead horse is "Hi, I'd like to know under what circumstances you would tolerate me blatantly ripping off your signature game online."

Granted I'm always amused by the lengths people will go to and the contrivances they will create in order to feel even a modicum of superiority over a stranger.

But man, this is a strettttch. Nice try though.

Dude, you came here all like, "We should bug Donald about this." And we were all like, "No, he has no control over it and we already know what he'll say." And then you did it anyway. So don't give us your snide "superiority over a stranger" bullshit. You're the one who didn't listen to reason.

In other news, I need to stop posting on 2 hours of sleep.

Interesting. If I'm not mistaken, that actually is not true in the slightest. At least Stealth Tomato's was a vague insinuation rather than complete fiction.

But tell you what. Maybe I'm wrong. Show me where in the thread (before the point where I reported my correspondence) where someone predicted what Donald would say, and told me I shouldn't talk  to him. If you do, I will apologize whole heatedly to both you Stealth Tomato and confirm I am a royal jackass.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #140 on: January 09, 2014, 02:07:59 pm »
+3

You are missing the somewhat obvious point that a free server is better than an official server simply because you don't have to pay for it.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #141 on: January 09, 2014, 02:13:09 pm »
0

You are missing the somewhat obvious point that a free server is better than an official server simply because you don't have to pay for it.

Sure, but that wouldn't be the only difference---Goko has an entirely different look-and-feel than Isotropic did and is functionally different.  If the issues with Goko were resolved and Isotropic were still live, many people would probably still pay for Goko rather than go to Isotropic.  Free things don't always make paid-for things obsolete.  Unix is free, but a lot of us use Windows.

Additionally, it's in our best interest to spend money for a product that we like, because it helps to ensure that similar products will continue to come out.  When I find music that I like, I prefer to buy it instead of trying to download it somewhere for free.  I would feel basically the same about games.  Plus, I just like owning it.
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SCSN

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #142 on: January 09, 2014, 02:15:22 pm »
+2

Someone explain to me how a private server for people who already paid for Goko constitutes ripping anyone off.

Charging money money for an isotropic clone hosted at fuckgoko.com, yeah, that would be a bit over the edge, even though I'd still totally pay for it lol.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #143 on: January 09, 2014, 02:19:25 pm »
0

As the license holders, can't Goko sue for lost profits? They could win or lose such a lawsuit.  Either way, being sued is not something anyone hosting online Dominion should have to face, especially not dougZ. I would think the threshold for when someone can be sued for an online version of Dominion is when it can be argued that the lost profit potential is considerably larger than the cost of the lawsuit.

Hosting A server from some safe haven, well then you just come off as very malicious to the official online Dominion platform and all it's supporters.
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elahrairah13

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #144 on: January 09, 2014, 02:29:32 pm »
+1

I generally favor not bothering Donald about Goko, but that seems like it was a fairly useful discussion, and I do think it confirms where people should go next if they want to pursue trying to take Dominion from Goko - to RGG. To find out more about the contract. Is it an exclusive license? (I cannot imagine that it is not). When does it expire? If it expires soon, have there been talks about renewing it? (do they have guaranteed renewal rights or something similar?)

What's probably the MOST important thing of all that is (politely) being in RGG's ear that you're unhappy with Goko and you'd prefer to see the Dominion license elsewhere, even if it means paying for it again.

If RGG is open to selling the license elsewhere after Goko's expires, that might be where the kickstarter to buy the license and it make it freely available best comes into play. But all that's probably for naught if Goko has 10-15 years left.

As an aside - putting up something like isotropic while Goko is still live should be viewed as a non-starter. Even putting aside the moral dilemma, it's a violation of US intellectual property laws (I cannot speak to international copyright) and would likely result in legal action.
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GeoLib

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #145 on: January 09, 2014, 02:38:36 pm »
0

Witherweaver: If you're distributing something for free that people are trying to charge money for, it is going to be very difficult for them to compete. Maybe you say that you like buying music you like to support the creators, but lots of people don't do that. Restarting Iso would definitely be a violation of intellectual property law and of DougZ's agreement with Donald and all that.

I think SCSN's idea of a private server that only people who have all the sets on goko could access might not be a bad one. In fact, this could be something we mention to RGG/goko when we contact them. And I really think that contacting RGG has to be the next step.
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GeoLib

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #146 on: January 09, 2014, 02:43:30 pm »
+4

Oh good, so we did decide to waste his time on this again. I continue to be surprised at his willingness to be civil to people who are beating the everloving fuck out of a dead horse, where that dead horse is "Hi, I'd like to know under what circumstances you would tolerate me blatantly ripping off your signature game online."

Granted I'm always amused by the lengths people will go to and the contrivances they will create in order to feel even a modicum of superiority over a stranger.

But man, this is a strettttch. Nice try though.

Dude, you came here all like, "We should bug Donald about this." And we were all like, "No, he has no control over it and we already know what he'll say." And then you did it anyway. So don't give us your snide "superiority over a stranger" bullshit. You're the one who didn't listen to reason.

In other news, I need to stop posting on 2 hours of sleep.

Interesting. If I'm not mistaken, that actually is not true in the slightest. At least Stealth Tomato's was a vague insinuation rather than complete fiction.

But tell you what. Maybe I'm wrong. Show me where in the thread (before the point where I reported my correspondence) where someone predicted what Donald would say, and told me I shouldn't talk  to him. If you do, I will apologize whole heatedly to both you Stealth Tomato and confirm I am a royal jackass.

I don't really mind that you contacted Donald, but:

I wouldn't drag Donald X. into this. He's a game designer, I'm guessing he doesn't like politics and commercial stuff, and the Goko contract is presumably with Rio Grande. Even though Goko is a lame duck it could still be better from Rio Grande's point of view to keep a revenue stream from Goko than have a fight with them over the rights. For all we know, RGG might have better partners waiting in the wings if Goko goes bust.

1.  Just because Donald has expressed his displeasure with Goko doesn't mean he has the ability to renegotiate RGG's contracts with Goko.  There is, as far as I know, no direct business relationship between Donald X and Goko.

Dude, anybody creating an isotropic clone has the potential to be sued. Donald certainly isn't going to condone or assist such a plan, and neither is dougz. Nor should they.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #147 on: January 09, 2014, 02:51:14 pm »
0

Witherweaver: If you're distributing something for free that people are trying to charge money for, it is going to be very difficult for them to compete. Maybe you say that you like buying music you like to support the creators, but lots of people don't do that. Restarting Iso would definitely be a violation of intellectual property law and of DougZ's agreement with Donald and all that.

I understand this point, but I don't actually agree with it.  I guess it's the same kind of question around Napster, and I didn't really buy that Napster was wrong either.  It ultimately feels very non-capitalistic to me. 

Of course restarting Iso itself isn't really the question.. as far as I know, DougZ had an agreement, and that is an agreement he should not back out of (morally).  The question I was considering is someone creating their own site, with their own code that they write.  I don't know what the intellectual property laws actually say.  Many people are saying that making such a site is in violation of these laws, and if that's true than the issue is only academic.  (Well, for me it's really only academic anyway.)

If you're distributing something for free that people are trying to charge money for, and what  you're distributing for free is just as good or even better than what people are trying to charge money for, then I don't think they should be competing.  This seems to indicate that they are unable to compete, and they shouldn't be kept around just for that reason.

I do not think that a fully competent version of Goko would fail because of a free Dominion implementation.  I think such a Goko would offer enough so that people would still pay for and use it.  I think it's lack of functionality that is making Goko trend downards, and it's doing it without any free implementation against which it has to compete. 

Quote
I think SCSN's idea of a private server that only people who have all the sets on goko could access might not be a bad one. In fact, this could be something we mention to RGG/goko when we contact them. And I really think that contacting RGG has to be the next step.

Is it actually legal?
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markusin

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #148 on: January 09, 2014, 03:29:27 pm »
+2

Someone explain to me how a private server for people who already paid for Goko constitutes ripping anyone off.
But even if this sort of thing could happen, is it really in Goko's interest to have the people who purchased all the sets leave off to play on some other site, where they can't play games with people who haven't purchased the sets but would be willing to if their Goko experience was good?

My answer is yes, because the Goko servers currently can't handle all those players playing on their site without slowdowns. I wish I was joking.
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blueblimp

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #149 on: January 09, 2014, 03:42:25 pm »
+2

I can't imagine it being illegal for me to cut my own Dominion cards for my own use and play them with my friends, as long as I don't try to make money off of it.  What part could be illegal?
It's illegal because it's a copyright violation. You're making a copy of the card text and images (by printing them out) and you aren't licensed to do that. Pretty simple. It's the same reason it's illegal to torrent a book and print that out to read, even if it's just for your personal use.

I don't want to stray too far into RSP territory (too late?), but the basic idea of copyright is pretty obviously good, because it allows creators to be compensated by people who enjoy their creation. Without some form of copyright, it'd be nearly impossible to make a living as an author, for example. (Not that it's easy even now!) Where there's legitimate disagreement is in how long the copyright should last and what are the boundaries of fair use.

In the example you give above though, Dominion is a recent game (2008) and the entire game (except the rulebook) would be copied, so that's not a grey area at all.
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ashersky

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #150 on: January 09, 2014, 03:42:40 pm »
+7

As the license holders, can't Goko sue for lost profits? They could win or lose such a lawsuit.  Either way, being sued is not something anyone hosting online Dominion should have to face, especially not dougZ. I would think the threshold for when someone can be sued for an online version of Dominion is when it can be argued that the lost profit potential is considerably larger than the cost of the lawsuit.

Hosting A server from some safe haven, well then you just come off as very malicious to the official online Dominion platform and all it's supporters.

Goko should sue themselves, then.  The sole reason Goko loses profits is Goko itself.
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soulnet

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #151 on: January 09, 2014, 03:47:11 pm »
0

... pretty obviously good ...

That's pretty obviously false, given that there lots of people and associations that fight for copyright to cease to exist.
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theory

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #152 on: January 09, 2014, 03:58:21 pm »
0

That implies no concept is "obviously good" if "lots of people and associations" fight against it.

The debate about IP law is interesting and amusing, but please keep debate about what it should be (as opposed to what it is) in RSP.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #153 on: January 09, 2014, 04:06:10 pm »
0

Someone explain to me how a private server for people who already paid for Goko constitutes ripping anyone off.
But even if this sort of thing could happen, is it really in Goko's interest to have the people who purchased all the sets leave off to play on some other site, where they can't play games with people who haven't purchased the sets but would be willing to if their Goko experience was good?

My answer is yes, because the Goko servers currently can't handle all those players playing on their site without slowdowns. I wish I was joking.

So why don't we propose this to Goko? Problem: We are frustrated by your online implementation of Dominion and you can't handle the server traffic (among other things). Solution: Allow the return of isotropic, but add a password protection and only invite people who have already purchased all the sets on Goko. This reduces their server traffic and makes us happy. It keeps the community alive, so there will actually be someone to play online Dominion if and when they actually fix it.

My friend asked me yesterday if he should buy the sets on Goko and I had to tell him no because it really sucked right now. It made me sad.
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hsiale

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #154 on: January 09, 2014, 04:24:23 pm »
+1

Guys I just want to reliably play Dominion online because I have a hard time finding IRL people to play with at the same time and place as me.  I own all the sets.  I'm willing to pay money to do this.
This reminds me of what I recently read at "About" page of play-agricola.com.

Quote
The twelve games available to play here are 12 actual board games that I purchased in San Diego, California. After purchasing the games, I scanned the pieces and instructions. The actual games were put in storage not to be used. Instead of using the actual games, I use the digitalized copies here. That is why only twelve games can be played at once and nothing can be downloaded and printed.

The physical board game is copyrighted (2007) by Lookout Games. The English language publisher, Z-Man Games, Inc. holds copyrights (2008) also. The board game was designed by Uwe Rosenberg. It is illegal to download, reuse, or print any material off of this website without written permission from Lookout Games, Z-Man Games, Inc., and other involved persons.

As long as no one is already using it, you are welcome to borrow and play with one of my board games. My name is Chris Deotte and my email is cdeotte@ucsd.edu

If you have a good time on this site, consider making a donation to support my efforts. Donate Here.  I am gratful to everyone involved in making Agricola available. It's a great game, ENJOY!

I wonder if this indeed works or simply Lookout Games don't want to shut this site down. A set of Dominion with all expansions allows 20 disjoint kingdoms. You need to add some sets of base cards and probably use blanks to print more Spoils. I guess one of the problems could be storage space for all those games set aside.

But I prefer the idea of a reliable server just for people who own all sets on Goko. Hosted somewhere where it's not a legal problem, I also don't see any moral problem in it if only people who paid Goko play.
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #155 on: January 09, 2014, 04:27:58 pm »
+3

So why don't we propose this to Goko? Problem: We are frustrated by your online implementation of Dominion and you can't handle the server traffic (among other things). Solution: Allow the return of isotropic, but add a password protection and only invite people who have already purchased all the sets on Goko. This reduces their server traffic and makes us happy. It keeps the community alive, so there will actually be someone to play online Dominion if and when they actually fix it.

Out of all the plans that involve relaunching Isotropic, this one to me makes the most sense. It proposes a specific solution which is both logically feasible and ethically sound. And it's not a unilateral demand; it's a compromise that ostensibly benefits everyone involved. (It's logistically feasible because Goko owns the license and it's ethically sound as long as whoever is running the server upholds the promise to restrict it to those who have purchased all the sets through Goko.)

There's the issue though - it relies pretty heavily on Dougz' cooperation, and it also places an additional imposition on him. Goko would likely want some kind of contractual obligation to ensure people don't get to play it for free. And that's some treacherous territory to be getting into. That said, if he and Goko would be up for it, this plan seems to make the most sense. It would be wise though to contingency plan in the event that Dougz doesn't want any part of things.

There are a lot of possible alternates that could be explored in that case, but I'd rather wait to see if Goko is on board before speculating. So I think a better way to phrase it to Goko might be: "Solution: Allow an alternate version of Dominion online, but only available to those who have already purchased all the sets on Goko." This way we have options.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #156 on: January 09, 2014, 04:33:53 pm »
+6

Actually, Goko would make even more money because I haven't paid for Goko yet, but probably would if it meant I could play on iso or something else that's good.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #157 on: January 09, 2014, 04:38:59 pm »
0

I don't really mind that you contacted Donald, but:

I did see the two posts by Kirian and LastFootnote, and neither of them said "Don't contact Donald." That said, I missed that post by DG. Good catch.

To be fair, it was the 4th post of the entire thread (my initial post was #64). And I did specify... "and told me I shouldn't talk to him." (So far I have yet to find anyone who specifically responded to me, telling me not to contact Donald). But I've never been one for loopholes. And at least that means LastFootnote's version of events wasn't entirely rooted in fiction. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it's the 2 hours of sleep that confused things.

So: LastFootnote, sorry for being unnecessarily dickish.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 04:41:27 pm by TheExpressicist »
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #158 on: January 09, 2014, 04:52:02 pm »
0

As a side note, I dug through Goko's code and it looks like it is written entirely in Javascript. This is problematic for a number of reasons. My fear now is that "fixing" Goko will necessitate an entire rewriting of the Dominion code to something more stable and server-side.

This article is fairly non-programmer-friendly which explains the limitations of Javascript: http://programming.oreilly.com/2013/07/javascript-is-way-too-slow-for-what.html

For the coders out there: http://sealedabstract.com/rants/why-mobile-web-apps-are-slow/

EDIT: Oh gosh. Since everything is handled client-side, it's extremely easy to alter certain things. See attachment:
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 05:28:28 pm by TheExpressicist »
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SCSN

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #159 on: January 09, 2014, 04:53:47 pm »
0

I can't imagine it being illegal for me to cut my own Dominion cards for my own use and play them with my friends, as long as I don't try to make money off of it.  What part could be illegal?
It's illegal because it's a copyright violation. You're making a copy of the card text and images (by printing them out) and you aren't licensed to do that. Pretty simple. It's the same reason it's illegal to torrent a book and print that out to read, even if it's just for your personal use.

Interestingly enough, under Dutch copyright law you are allowed to make/own one copy (and one copy only) of whatever copyrighted material you own, provided it's for personal use.

It's an old law and as far as I know (I'm not a lawyer) it hasn't really been updated in a long time and since people only ever get sued for very blatant violations there is little jurisprudence, but it supposedly extends to digital material as well, in the sense that owning a physical book makes it ok to either scan it or download the e-book version from an "illegal" filesharer. So my idea for a private server might actually be fully legal under Dutch copyright law.
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theory

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #160 on: January 09, 2014, 05:01:16 pm »
+1

Why do you think it's written in js?  I'm not really much of an expert but I definitely do not think it is js.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #161 on: January 09, 2014, 05:02:07 pm »
0

I can't imagine it being illegal for me to cut my own Dominion cards for my own use and play them with my friends, as long as I don't try to make money off of it.  What part could be illegal?
It's illegal because it's a copyright violation. You're making a copy of the card text and images (by printing them out) and you aren't licensed to do that. Pretty simple. It's the same reason it's illegal to torrent a book and print that out to read, even if it's just for your personal use.

I don't want to stray too far into RSP territory (too late?), but the basic idea of copyright is pretty obviously good, because it allows creators to be compensated by people who enjoy their creation. Without some form of copyright, it'd be nearly impossible to make a living as an author, for example. (Not that it's easy even now!) Where there's legitimate disagreement is in how long the copyright should last and what are the boundaries of fair use.

In the example you give above though, Dominion is a recent game (2008) and the entire game (except the rulebook) would be copied, so that's not a grey area at all.

So I find this kind of surprising; I never really bothered to pay attention to copyright laws.  What if you don't print them out put just paraphrase the card text and don't use the art? 

Well anyway, as many pointed out, further discussion is off topic, so maybe I'll make a post in the other forum. (I didn't know what RSP stood for until Theory linked it to the board.)  I find it interesting, though.
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #162 on: January 09, 2014, 05:33:08 pm »
+4

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #163 on: January 09, 2014, 05:34:39 pm »
+1

Well anyway, as many pointed out, further discussion is off topic, so maybe I'll make a post in the other forum. (I didn't know what RSP stood for until Theory linked it to the board.)  I find it interesting, though.
Yes, I might check out this RSP section sometime. I also didn't know what it stood for until I tried the link.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #164 on: January 09, 2014, 05:37:01 pm »
+1

Why do you think it's written in js?  I'm not really much of an expert but I definitely do not think it is js.

http://play.goko.com/Dominion/CardBuilder/FS.CardBuilder.Data.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/CardBuilder/FS.CardBuilder.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/DominionClient.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/DominionGameClient.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/DominionUI.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/FS.DeckBuilder.Lib.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/FS.DeckBuilder.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/FSCards.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/dominionSetGenerator.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/dominionSetGeneratorData.js

and so on and so forth. There's about 35-40 scripts that it loads, all of which are javascript.

Of particular interest are CardBuilder.js which contains all the card data. Also, dominionSetGenerator.js which is literally just Wei-Hwa Huang's program from www.dominionsetgenerator.com . Note the term "beta"

So I hope someone can tell me that HACK is an acronym so that the comments starting with
\\HACK ...
are not really saying that the following code is a hack...
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #165 on: January 09, 2014, 05:41:21 pm »
0

So why don't we propose this to Goko? Problem: We are frustrated by your online implementation of Dominion and you can't handle the server traffic (among other things). Solution: Allow the return of isotropic, but add a password protection and only invite people who have already purchased all the sets on Goko. This reduces their server traffic and makes us happy. It keeps the community alive, so there will actually be someone to play online Dominion if and when they actually fix it.

Out of all the plans that involve relaunching Isotropic, this one to me makes the most sense. It proposes a specific solution which is both logically feasible and ethically sound. And it's not a unilateral demand; it's a compromise that ostensibly benefits everyone involved. (It's logistically feasible because Goko owns the license and it's ethically sound as long as whoever is running the server upholds the promise to restrict it to those who have purchased all the sets through Goko.)

There's the issue though - it relies pretty heavily on Dougz' cooperation, and it also places an additional imposition on him. Goko would likely want some kind of contractual obligation to ensure people don't get to play it for free. And that's some treacherous territory to be getting into. That said, if he and Goko would be up for it, this plan seems to make the most sense. It would be wise though to contingency plan in the event that Dougz doesn't want any part of things.

There are a lot of possible alternates that could be explored in that case, but I'd rather wait to see if Goko is on board before speculating. So I think a better way to phrase it to Goko might be: "Solution: Allow an alternate version of Dominion online, but only available to those who have already purchased all the sets on Goko." This way we have options.

I agree. My optimal world involves DougZ reopening isotropic, but I would understand if he didn't want to do that. Another online implementation or someone else hosting Iso using DougZ's source code would also be good options. Are people on board with contacting RGG with this proposal? I don't want to do anything unilaterally (and I'm also not really sure about the best way to go about contacting them though I could probably figure it out). If someone else wants to conduct the actual correspondence that would be totally fine with me, especially since I'm currently trying to apply for about 10 different internships and spending way to much time on f.ds considering...
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #166 on: January 09, 2014, 05:41:28 pm »
0

So I hope someone can tell me that HACK is an acronym so that the comments starting with
\\HACK ...
are not really saying that the following code is a hack...


Having All Copper Kills

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #167 on: January 09, 2014, 05:43:57 pm »
+2

Are people on board with contacting RGG with this proposal?

...no? They're just going to say no, or not bother to reply. I'd be much more interested in some sort of "Are you aware of the following problems with Goko" sort of message.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #168 on: January 09, 2014, 05:48:25 pm »
0

Are people on board with contacting RGG with this proposal?

...no? They're just going to say no, or not bother to reply. I'd be much more interested in some sort of "Are you aware of the following problems with Goko" sort of message.

Why? (are they just going to say no. The message could certainly include "Are you aware of the following problems," but why not also include some sort of solution?)
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #169 on: January 09, 2014, 06:00:07 pm »
+1

Because you're asking them to (presumably) violate a contract they signed. Why in the world would they do that?

As far as proposed solutions, the only one I can see (honestly) is RGG terminating their contract with Goko. Alternately they could demand certain performance metrics be met by Goko, but even if that happened I don't see Goko meeting them. And if they do that, they'll look for another developer, because online Dominion is a theoretically lucrative product.

Basically, the only productive thing I can see us as a community doing is constructively bringing to their attention how much Goko sucks, in case they aren't aware. They need to take it from there, really.
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theory

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #170 on: January 09, 2014, 06:01:30 pm »
+1

Why do you think it's written in js?  I'm not really much of an expert but I definitely do not think it is js.

http://play.goko.com/Dominion/CardBuilder/FS.CardBuilder.Data.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/CardBuilder/FS.CardBuilder.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/DominionClient.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/DominionGameClient.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/DominionUI.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/FS.DeckBuilder.Lib.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/FS.DeckBuilder.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/FSCards.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/dominionSetGenerator.js
http://play.goko.com/Dominion/lib/dominionSetGeneratorData.js

and so on and so forth. There's about 35-40 scripts that it loads, all of which are javascript.

Of particular interest are CardBuilder.js which contains all the card data. Also, dominionSetGenerator.js which is literally just Wei-Hwa Huang's program from www.dominionsetgenerator.com . Note the term "beta"

This is ... pretty funny.  I retract my previous statement.

The //HACK is not such a big deal, every software project does that and anyone who tells you they've never done something similar is lying.
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theory

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #171 on: January 09, 2014, 06:04:27 pm »
+6

Because you're asking them to (presumably) violate a contract they signed. Why in the world would they do that?

As far as proposed solutions, the only one I can see (honestly) is RGG terminating their contract with Goko. Alternately they could demand certain performance metrics be met by Goko, but even if that happened I don't see Goko meeting them. And if they do that, they'll look for another developer, because online Dominion is a theoretically lucrative product.

One would typically expect contracts like the RGG - Goko contract to contain clauses requiring performance standards.  The fact that they haven't been triggered implies one of several possibilities: 1) they are no such clauses; 2) Goko has not breached those performance standards; 3) RGG is unaware that Goko has breached those standards; 4) Goko has not yet had enough time to breach those standards; 5) RGG is unwilling to trigger the clauses; or 6) they have been triggered, and we just haven't heard anything about it.
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #172 on: January 09, 2014, 06:09:32 pm »
0

Are people on board with contacting RGG with this proposal?

...no? They're just going to say no, or not bother to reply. I'd be much more interested in some sort of "Are you aware of the following problems with Goko" sort of message.

In this situation, "No" is an acceptable outcome because there is so little opportunity cost associated with simply sending an email to Goko. This could literally be done in 5 minutes.

Unlike other "plans" which require the cooperation and backing of the community, along with significant potential negative repercussions. Furthermore, this is an offer of compromise which benefits Goko. Essentially we're offering them free servers and hosting. It's not a unilateral demand coupled with a toothless threat. And if they say "No" or don't respond, that's fine. On to the next plan.

In fact, I'll make it easy. All someone has to do is just send the following email:

Quote
"Hi, I am a representative of the online Dominion community. I'm sure you have heard many of the complaints that have been leveled at Goko in the recent weeks. I have a potential solution that would still allow Goko to generate revenue, take much of the load off Goko's servers, and satisfy the Dominion online community.

The suggestion would be for you to offer limited license of Dominion online to a group who would host an alternate version of Dominion online on a separate server. The condition of this license would be that only people who have paid for the Goko Ultra Pack would have access to this server. Or, if there is an alternate pricing structure that would be preferable, we would certainly be amenable to that as well.

This would encourage people to continue buying Goko products so that they could access a function online version of Dominion, and it would potentially take a large amount of load off of Goko's servers.

Please let me know if you'd be amenable to this plan.

Sincerely,
*insert name here*"


The CEO of Goko's email is katiewc@goko.com
Their publically posted emails are: devrel@goko.com,
 info@goko.com,
 bizdev@goko.com


Who wants to step up to the plate and send the email?
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #173 on: January 09, 2014, 06:12:17 pm »
0

Because you're asking them to (presumably) violate a contract they signed. Why in the world would they do that?

As far as proposed solutions, the only one I can see (honestly) is RGG terminating their contract with Goko. Alternately they could demand certain performance metrics be met by Goko, but even if that happened I don't see Goko meeting them. And if they do that, they'll look for another developer, because online Dominion is a theoretically lucrative product.

Basically, the only productive thing I can see us as a community doing is constructively bringing to their attention how much Goko sucks, in case they aren't aware. They need to take it from there, really.

This is why I contacted Donald, so we didn't have to speculate about the nature of the contract. His words: "I gave RGG an exclusive license to digital Dominion. So, anything to negotiate would happen between whoever and RGG; I'm not even involved. I suspect RGG gave Goko an exclusive license for whatever time period, and if so there's no-one to negotiate with except Goko."

So, there's still some speculation there because he doesn't know for certain, but I'm willing to ride with his suspicion that Goko has a temporary exclusive license. Especially because there is little to no downside to sending a simple e-mail.
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #174 on: January 09, 2014, 06:14:07 pm »
+1


This is ... pretty funny.  I retract my previous statement.

The //HACK is not such a big deal, every software project does that and anyone who tells you they've never done something similar is lying.

The code comments read like a bad soap opera. You can almost hear the different voices of the various developers who worked on the project at certain points of time, complete with subtle insinuations about previous programmers' lack of coding ability, accusations, questioning why certain things are done certain ways... If it weren't so sad, it would be hilarious.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #175 on: January 09, 2014, 06:17:19 pm »
0

It may be that Goko's license with RGG is non-transferrable. In that case they wouldn't actually be authorised to allow a private iso clone.
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #176 on: January 09, 2014, 06:18:37 pm »
0

It may be that Goko's license with RGG is non-transferrable.

That may well be the case. If so, we can move on to the next idea.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #177 on: January 09, 2014, 06:26:04 pm »
+1


This is ... pretty funny.  I retract my previous statement.

The //HACK is not such a big deal, every software project does that and anyone who tells you they've never done something similar is lying.

The code comments read like a bad soap opera. You can almost hear the different voices of the various developers who worked on the project at certain points of time, complete with subtle insinuations about previous programmers' lack of coding ability, accusations, questioning why certain things are done certain ways... If it weren't so sad, it would be hilarious.

As someone told me:

Quote
It's really painful to have to find where Goko does X, understand its horrible undocumented code, and then figure out how to modify it to do Y instead.

Actually, it's even worse than that because chunks of code are reused in totally unexpected places, so you're never safe to assume that you're only making a local change. For example, when Goko wants to check which expansion sets you own (for the store or something), it runs its code to generate a random kingdom (!) and then looks at the list of sets that gets cached along the way. That means you can't replace the kingdom generating code without breaking all sorts of other stuff.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #178 on: January 09, 2014, 06:27:18 pm »
+3

Are people on board with contacting RGG with this proposal?

...no? They're just going to say no, or not bother to reply. I'd be much more interested in some sort of "Are you aware of the following problems with Goko" sort of message.

In this situation, "No" is an acceptable outcome because there is so little opportunity cost associated with simply sending an email to Goko. This could literally be done in 5 minutes.

Unlike other "plans" which require the cooperation and backing of the community, along with significant potential negative repercussions. Furthermore, this is an offer of compromise which benefits Goko. Essentially we're offering them free servers and hosting. It's not a unilateral demand coupled with a toothless threat. And if they say "No" or don't respond, that's fine. On to the next plan.

In fact, I'll make it easy. All someone has to do is just send the following email:

Quote
"Hi, I am a representative of the online Dominion community. I'm sure you have heard many of the complaints that have been leveled at Goko in the recent weeks. I have a potential solution that would still allow Goko to generate revenue, take much of the load off Goko's servers, and satisfy the Dominion online community.

The suggestion would be for you to offer limited license of Dominion online to a group who would host an alternate version of Dominion online on a separate server. The condition of this license would be that only people who have paid for the Goko Ultra Pack would have access to this server. Or, if there is an alternate pricing structure that would be preferable, we would certainly be amenable to that as well.

This would encourage people to continue buying Goko products so that they could access a function online version of Dominion, and it would potentially take a large amount of load off of Goko's servers.

Please let me know if you'd be amenable to this plan.

Sincerely,
*insert name here*"


The CEO of Goko's email is katiewc@goko.com
Their publically posted emails are: devrel@goko.com,
 info@goko.com,
 bizdev@goko.com


Who wants to step up to the plate and send the email?


By this logic, I ought to send everyone in this topic a bunch of PMs telling them to quit posting stuff, because it annoys me. There's extremely little opportunity cost.

I'm sure you'd love to have to deal with one of these every so often. I mean, basically, it's just spam, and you don't send spam out of politeness, if nothing else.

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #179 on: January 09, 2014, 06:38:18 pm »
0

The thing that I don't get about this is people keep saying that there's a problem that needs to be fixed and are looking for solutions.

The issue is, it's really that YOU have a problem, in that you can't play online dominion like you want, and you want someone else to fix it for you. Which seems to me to be behaviour ordinary for people somewhere around the age of 8 - or perhaps it's just modern consumer culture.

In any case, you shouldn't expect anyone to do things more for you here based on whatever action you're planning on taking. I mean, okay, if you set up an iso clone, you might get away with it. I don't advocate this, though, because it's at best questionable legally, and you probably don't want the mess. But petitions, etc. - why would anyone respond to this?

Oh, I suppose buying the license out might be plausible also, but you're never going to raise enough money for it.


Seriously, though, design your own game. It's not as hard as you think.

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #180 on: January 09, 2014, 06:39:01 pm »
0

By this logic, I ought to send everyone in this topic a bunch of PMs telling them to quit posting stuff, because it annoys me. There's extremely little opportunity cost.

If you think the potential benefit of that would outweigh the time it would take to PM about 70 people, then absolutely you should do it. :)
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #181 on: January 09, 2014, 06:40:01 pm »
+5

And, there is one valuable lesson to remember here. As jonts points out, the first option has a huge advantage in the poll. This is a pretty harrowing reminder of how unimportant things like what order choices are given in can have big impacts in surveys/questionnaires/polls, so be very thorough, and take such things with a grain of salt anyway.

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #182 on: January 09, 2014, 06:41:21 pm »
0

The thing that I don't get about this is people keep saying that there's a problem that needs to be fixed and are looking for solutions.

The issue is, it's really that YOU have a problem, in that you can't play online dominion like you want, and you want someone else to fix it for you. Which seems to me to be behaviour ordinary for people somewhere around the age of 8 - or perhaps it's just modern consumer culture.

We're actually completely on the same page here. You should read my very first post in this thread, on page 4. Basically I excoriated most of the people on this thread for making silly suggestions and demands without offering any concrete, specific solutions that didn't revolve around getting Dougz to potentially break the law.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #183 on: January 09, 2014, 06:50:58 pm »
+4

But, WanderingWinder, I thought we were all you. Do you really need a reminder PM to tell yourself to stop posting in this thread?
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #184 on: January 09, 2014, 06:54:18 pm »
0

But, WanderingWinder, I thought we were all you. Do you really need a reminder PM to tell yourself to stop posting in this thread?
Perhaps WanderingWinder wants to be reminded that he should stop posting here no matter which one of us he logs in as.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #185 on: January 09, 2014, 06:58:08 pm »
+2

Because you're asking them to (presumably) violate a contract they signed. Why in the world would they do that?

Ah. I think the misunderstanding here is that I mean (and meant to say) that this should be an email to Goko and RGG representatives, I think the permission of both of them might be necessary for this to work.


The thing that I don't get about this is people keep saying that there's a problem that needs to be fixed and are looking for solutions.

The issue is, it's really that YOU have a problem, in that you can't play online dominion like you want, and you want someone else to fix it for you. Which seems to me to be behaviour ordinary for people somewhere around the age of 8 - or perhaps it's just modern consumer culture.

Yes. Many of us have a problem with what is happening. Goko also has problems. So we are proposing something that could in fact fix multiple problems. Even if we say that reduced server traffic to Goko isn't a good thing for them, it's at least fixing the problems that many of us have without negatively impacting them. This is not people demanding that someone fix their problems, this is people trying to propose solutions to fix their problems. So... problem-solving. That doesn't sound 8-year-old behaviour to me.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #186 on: January 09, 2014, 06:58:40 pm »
+4



By this logic, I ought to send everyone in this topic a bunch of PMs telling them to quit posting stuff, because it annoys me. There's extremely little opportunity cost.



AHA! So its you that keeps sending me those mails! I should have guessed...
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #187 on: January 09, 2014, 07:18:24 pm »
0

The thing that I don't get about this is people keep saying that there's a problem that needs to be fixed and are looking for solutions.

The issue is, it's really that YOU have a problem, in that you can't play online dominion like you want

All problems are ultimately subjective; cancerous growth is terrible for a non-suicidal human, but it's awesome for the cancer cells. Once you have reason to believe that something you consider problematic is judged likewise by a sizable part of the people you're interacting with, it's common practice to refer to it as "being a problem" rather than to keep inserting annoying and superfluous hedges in the form of references to subjective perception.

Quote
and you want someone else to fix it for you.

Nope. Well, of course I'd love that, but this thread is really the first step towards solving my own problem. If it doesn't lead to anything, coding my own dominion site (either alone or in cooperation with others) might well be the next.

Quote
Which seems to me to be behaviour ordinary for people somewhere around the age of 8

When I was 8 I loved to play with lego blocks. Playing around with cards or with code or with words isn't that much of a difference, actually. I've always found it a pity that many people, as they get older, seem to lose that childish sense of curiosity, of speculative vision, of playful exploration.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 07:20:54 pm by SheCantSayNo »
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #188 on: January 09, 2014, 07:19:00 pm »
+7

The issue is, it's really that YOU have a problem, in that you can't play online dominion like you want, and you want someone else to fix it for you. Which seems to me to be behaviour ordinary for people somewhere around the age of 8 - or perhaps it's just modern consumer culture.

I think what's happening in this thread (at least after the first page or so) is that people posting here want better online Dominion, and presumably Goko/RGG wants money, and we are trying to find a way that both of those things can happen.  If we're only thinking about the former we will obviously get nowhere, so that's why people are discussing what benefits we might be able to provide to Goko/RGG by the existence of better online Dominion.

Now, whether you think it's possible to reach a solution that benefits everyone involved is up for discussion; a lot of people here think it is, and a lot of others think it isn't.  But calling them 8-year-olds just because they are looking for such a solution is completely ridiculous.  Am I a whiny 8-year-old when I play Quo Vadis and trade votes with you so that we both score more victory points?  Obviously I'm only interested in my own scoring, but I know that you'll agree to help me out if it means more for you.  How about when I trade you the resources that you need for the resources that I need in Settlers of Catan?  Or when I make a temporary alliance with you in Risk?  Or when I KC Masquerade and agree to pass you a Silk Road for your Gardens because I have threatened to Embargo Silk Roads, which are worth more to you but less to me than Gardens in multi-player Dominion?

We have identified that there is potentially deadweight loss in the current state of online Dominion; many of the posters here think that it is economically beneficial for Goko/RGG to execute plan X, and that we also get better online Dominion by plan X, and therefore there is no reason not to do X.  It's not selfish to think like that; it's stupid not to.

Again, I don't know how plausible the suggestions are, but they're certainly worth discussing.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #189 on: January 09, 2014, 08:25:46 pm »
0

I would rather make up my own version of dominion than have to give goko money to play on iso because fuck goko.  (theory is it ok to say fuck, I won't say it again if it's not cool, I just wanted emphasis)
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #190 on: January 09, 2014, 09:11:41 pm »
+1

I would rather make up my own version of dominion than have to give goko money to play on iso because fuck goko.  (theory is it ok to say fuck, I won't say it again if it's not cool, I just wanted emphasis)

I am biased in that I've already given money to goko, but I would rather do something that isn't illegal and has the blessing of the creator and license holder.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #191 on: January 09, 2014, 09:29:14 pm »
0

The thing that I don't get about this is people keep saying that there's a problem that needs to be fixed and are looking for solutions.

The issue is, it's really that YOU have a problem, in that you can't play online dominion like you want, and you want someone else to fix it for you. Which seems to me to be behaviour ordinary for people somewhere around the age of 8 - or perhaps it's just modern consumer culture.

In any case, you shouldn't expect anyone to do things more for you here based on whatever action you're planning on taking. I mean, okay, if you set up an iso clone, you might get away with it. I don't advocate this, though, because it's at best questionable legally, and you probably don't want the mess. But petitions, etc. - why would anyone respond to this?

Oh, I suppose buying the license out might be plausible also, but you're never going to raise enough money for it.


Seriously, though, design your own game. It's not as hard as you think.

Well, designing my own game doesn't sound like any fun to me.  Some people probably like that, but I wouldn't.  I'd rather to different things with my time and let other people (who would probably be much better at it) design games.  I'd then be willing in many cases to pay for those games.  I mean if that's not available I'm not going to throw a tantrum or anything, but generally this seems like a pretty good way for things to work.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #192 on: January 09, 2014, 10:07:11 pm »
0

I would rather make up my own version of dominion than have to give goko money to play on iso because fuck goko.  (theory is it ok to say fuck, I won't say it again if it's not cool, I just wanted emphasis)

I am biased in that I've already given money to goko, but I would rather do something that isn't illegal and has the blessing of the creator and license holder.

So why haven't you given my post +1 respect since my one liner post is enthusiastic support for Donald's only suggestion??
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #193 on: January 09, 2014, 10:10:02 pm »
0

By own version I did mean new game.  People should have figured out that's what I've been on about since I linked to the variants thread with a Dominion overhaul restructure idea.  I expect people to read the notes in the margins because I'm an egotist
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #194 on: January 09, 2014, 10:13:02 pm »
0

By own version I did mean new game.  People should have figured out that's what I've been on about since I linked to the variants thread with a Dominion overhaul restructure idea.  I expect people to read the notes in the margins because I'm an egotist

Ah. I didn't realize that's what you meant.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #195 on: January 09, 2014, 10:37:57 pm »
0

Does anyone else think that Goko might get insulted if they were told that reducing their average traffic is a good thing? It's a very counter-intuitive claim, and something that seems like it's making fun of Goko. Having too much traffic actually be an issue is just a really sad situation that should never have come about in the first place that you'd normally pretend never existed.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #196 on: January 09, 2014, 10:43:55 pm »
0

Does anyone else think that Goko might get insulted if they were told that reducing their average traffic is a good thing? It's a very counter-intuitive claim, and something that seems like it's making fun of Goko. Having too much traffic actually be an issue is just a really sad situation that should never have come about in the first place that you'd normally pretend never existed.

There's no shortage of things that MIGHT insult people.

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #197 on: January 09, 2014, 11:20:54 pm »
+6

Does anyone else think that Goko might get insulted if they were told that reducing their average traffic is a good thing? It's a very counter-intuitive claim, and something that seems like it's making fun of Goko. Having too much traffic actually be an issue is just a really sad situation that should never have come about in the first place that you'd normally pretend never existed.

There's no shortage of things that MIGHT insult people.


There might well be a shortage, however, of people who care whether Goko gets insulted.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #198 on: January 10, 2014, 01:39:18 am »
+5

I don't know, WW -- doesn't the concept of money as a store of value come into play here?  We use money everyday to try to solve various problems -- I wouldn't classify doing that as childish behavior, although of course in some cases it can be.

You've correctly identified MY problem here... I even posted about it a few pages ago (emphasis is new):

Guys I just want to reliably play Dominion online because I have a hard time finding IRL people to play with at the same time and place as me.  I own all the sets.  I'm willing to pay money to do this.

I like pro-rankings/leaderboards and tournaments and automatching according to preferences.  I'm willing to pay some more money for those too.

Does anyone know what I can do or where on the internet I should go to do this?


Designing my own game doesn't help me play Dominion more (i.e. doesn't solve the problem).

Earning money and then going and telling people that I am willing to pay some of that money to anyone who can make me able to play Dominion more (given the constraints of my circumstances) might actually be a viable step towards solving the problem.

Suggesting that it is childish to do so is kinda... wrong.  We live in a society where you pay money to people who make it their business to provide you with things.  Literally the way humanity has lived for as long as the concept of money has been around.  So posting in a forum thread dedicated to finding a solution to MY problem -- in the hopes of gaining a greater understanding of how many other people have the same problem and hearing what their suggestions for solutions to our common problem might be -- certainly seems like a non-childish, reasonable thing to do.

Of course, you may have not been talking to me with that reference to childishness... and if that is the case, then nevermind -- I'll just pick up this gauntlet that seems to be lying here between us for some reason.  :-[
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #199 on: January 10, 2014, 02:05:48 am »
+1

But it's like, someone has something you want, and you feel like you're entitled to get it just because you're willing to pay for it.  But sometimes life's not like that.  Sometimes the seller says "not for sale".

Goko's not gonna sell the license.  It's theirs for X years.


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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #200 on: January 10, 2014, 02:31:37 am »
+2

Guys I just want to reliably play Dominion online because I have a hard time finding IRL people to play with at the same time and place as me.  I own all the sets.  I'm willing to pay money to do this.

I like pro-rankings/leaderboards and tournaments and automatching according to preferences.  I'm willing to pay some more money for those too.

Does anyone know what I can do or where on the internet I should go to do this?


But it's like, someone has something you want, and you feel like you're entitled to get it just because you're willing to pay for it.  But sometimes life's not like that.  Sometimes the seller says "not for sale".

Goko's not gonna sell the license.  It's theirs for X years.

I don't feel like I'm entitled to it.  When did I ever indicate that?  I'm saying, "hey I have money -- anyone have some [insert the product I've specified above here] to sell me?" and "hey do any of you people know where I can go to buy [insert product specified above here]?"  How is that entitled?  It's literally how a marketplace operates.

Nowhere have I said that DougZ/Donald/RGG/Goko MUST do X or Y or Z.  I'm saying, "hey I have money -- anyone have some X to sell me?"

If the answer is no, then the answer is no.  That doesn't make me entitled for asking the question though.
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #201 on: January 10, 2014, 02:45:17 am »
0

I think at this point it takes a sense of entitlement to come up with any optimism for an opportunity to trade money for online dominion play.
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #202 on: January 10, 2014, 03:30:32 am »
+4

Are people on board with contacting RGG with this proposal?

...no? They're just going to say no, or not bother to reply. I'd be much more interested in some sort of "Are you aware of the following problems with Goko" sort of message.

In this situation, "No" is an acceptable outcome because there is so little opportunity cost associated with simply sending an email to Goko. This could literally be done in 5 minutes.

Unlike other "plans" which require the cooperation and backing of the community, along with significant potential negative repercussions. Furthermore, this is an offer of compromise which benefits Goko. Essentially we're offering them free servers and hosting. It's not a unilateral demand coupled with a toothless threat. And if they say "No" or don't respond, that's fine. On to the next plan.

Do you really think there's no cost in potentially pissing off the people you count on to make your favorite games happen? Particularly after DXV's departure from the forum due to... well, this.
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Ratsia

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #203 on: January 10, 2014, 04:12:14 am »
+3

It's illegal because it's a copyright violation. You're making a copy of the card text and images (by printing them out) and you aren't licensed to do that. Pretty simple. It's the same reason it's illegal to torrent a book and print that out to read, even if it's just for your personal use.
Interestingly enough, under Dutch copyright law you are allowed to make/own one copy (and one copy only) of whatever copyrighted material you own, provided it's for personal use.
This sort of a copyright law is apparently fairly common in Europe, so it's more like the US law is the exception. I guess their copyright laws are quite a bit stricter than in most other countries. Also, to me it sounds like the Dutch law is also quite a bit more restrictive than the Finnish one. We are also allowed to make personal copies, but we are not required to own the product. It is perfectly fine to borrow a CD from a library and convert the songs into MP3s for personal use. There is also no (arbitrary) limitation to just one copy, and you can also make copies for your family members and friends (but not further than that).

My understanding is that majority of countries would see absolutely no problems with blueblimp's example of printing out the cards and playing with them. I can absolutely borrow Dominion from a friend or library (yes, we have board games in libraries), scan+print the cards and play with my copy. I can even make some extra copies for my close friends. Even though the material is copyrighted, there is simply no violation of anything since personal copies are permitted. Torrenting the e-book would, however, be illegal because distributing the e-book (which happens in torrent automatically) is illegal. Also, the source has to be legal so already downloading a copy of the book from some piracy server would be a violation, even though the user would otherwise be allowed to make a personal copy of it.

Quote
It's an old law and as far as I know (I'm not a lawyer) it hasn't really been updated in a long time and since people only ever get sued for very blatant violations there is little jurisprudence, but it supposedly extends to digital material as well, in the sense that owning a physical book makes it ok to either scan it or download the e-book version from an "illegal" filesharer.
The Finnish law was updated a few years ago, so it explicitly covers also the new stuff. Even after the (quite disputed) changes it is perfectly legal to make copies for one's personal use, even of digital products. However, one is not allowed to break any "sufficiently advanced" encryption while doing so, which means that e.g. copies of Blu-ray discs are not legal even if taken for personal use. This criterion is quite suspicious and raised a lot of objections, and it remains to be seen whether the law will be fixed in the future.

Getting back to the e-book example, I could hence buy an e-book from Amazon and then give some copies of it for my friends, assuming I can do it without circumventing a sufficiently advanced technical protection. I have no idea whether the e-book protections fall into that category, and I think nobody does.
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #204 on: January 10, 2014, 06:38:13 am »
+2

Do you really think there's no cost in potentially pissing off the people you count on to make your favorite games happen? Particularly after DXV's departure from the forum due to... well, this.

[/quote]

Of course there is. In fact I even specifically brought up that point as reasons why both a "sit in" and the issuing of unilateral demands are terrible ideas.

But on the scale of Things That Might Piss People Off, "Writing a civilly worded suggestion of a potential win-win compromise that acknowledges the situation without placing any blame" is pretty darn low. Case in point, I have had productive, back-and-forth, civil conversations with both DXV and Goko, neither of whom were pissed off or offended at my approach.

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #205 on: January 10, 2014, 07:02:14 am »
0

Do you really think there's no cost in potentially pissing off the people you count on to make your favorite games happen? Particularly after DXV's departure from the forum due to... well, this.

Of course there is. In fact I even specifically brought up that point as reasons why both a "sit in" and the issuing of unilateral demands are terrible ideas.

But on the scale of Things That Might Piss People Off, "Writing a civilly worded suggestion of a potential win-win compromise that acknowledges the situation without placing any blame" is pretty darn low. Case in point, I have had productive, back-and-forth, civil conversations with both DXV and Goko, neither of whom were pissed off or offended at my approach.
Right, but the compromise hinges on Goko/RGG admitting that the current online Dominion is very weak. It would be very embarrassing for them to make such an admission.

I guess no one really cares about that though, when given just how weak online Dominion has become.
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #206 on: January 10, 2014, 08:15:27 am »
+2

Do you really think there's no cost in potentially pissing off the people you count on to make your favorite games happen? Particularly after DXV's departure from the forum due to... well, this.

Of course there is. In fact I even specifically brought up that point as reasons why both a "sit in" and the issuing of unilateral demands are terrible ideas.

But on the scale of Things That Might Piss People Off, "Writing a civilly worded suggestion of a potential win-win compromise that acknowledges the situation without placing any blame" is pretty darn low. Case in point, I have had productive, back-and-forth, civil conversations with both DXV and Goko, neither of whom were pissed off or offended at my approach.
Right, but the compromise hinges on Goko/RGG admitting that the current online Dominion is very weak. It would be very embarrassing for them to make such an admission.

I guess no one really cares about that though, when given just how weak online Dominion has become.

That would be like going back into beta after attempting a launch in terms of levels of implausibly high level embarrassment.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 12:56:16 pm by popsofctown »
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Ozle

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #207 on: January 10, 2014, 08:15:45 am »
+2

Im pretty sure we already know how long Gokos licence is for isnt it?

Pretty sure that was info Donald shared with us, or possibly how long his licence with RGG was.

5 years comes to mind?
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #208 on: January 10, 2014, 09:34:02 am »
+5

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #209 on: January 10, 2014, 11:53:42 am »
0

There is no way that Goko and RGG are going to agree to an iso-style implementation that co-exists with Goko - even if it is password protected for only Goko purchasers.

I just wrote to RGG.

"Hello!
I'm a giant Dominion fan (well... addict to be honest). I apologize if you've received a bunch of messages like this, but I've found the online implementation (Goko) to be excessively frustrating. I have purchased all of the Dominion sets in physical form (except Dark Ages, as I fear the cards are too complicated for my daughter to play) and would love to play them online - and would pay for what I deem to be an acceptable version of that. However, Goko is just so buggy and unreliable that I haven't purchased the cards there. I'm not alone in that. I contribute to an online community of Dominion fans, and many people (including many who bought the cards on Goko) are extremely dissatisfied.
Many of us are talking about how we might possibly get back a version of online Dominion that we like. The night I first played Dominion (in real life) I really liked it. I went home, searched online, and found the old unofficial implementation (isotropic). It was there that I became hooked - buying the physical sets quickly followed. I understand why it had to go, of course - Goko needed a blank slate to get their foot in the door. Unfortunately it seems that their version is just not up to the task.
So to round to the point, I would like to urge you guys to seek alternative licensing arrangements whenever your contract with Goko allows. In fact, if you're comfortable disclosing some details of your contract (and not legally prohibited from doing so), I would love to get some information from you about it. A few of us have seriously discussed pooling money in an attempt to purchase the license. I'm sure it's a pipedream, but we have a community full of folks who are willing to kick in to a crowdsourced version of purchasing the online license in order to implement something more like isotropic.
Thank you for your time and for the work you've done publishing an awesome game. "
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #210 on: January 10, 2014, 01:30:05 pm »
+1

@elahrairah13: We can agree to disagree on the plausibility of the plans. And I don't mean that in the usual "smug asshole" sense of the term. I mean that, even though we may disagree on whose potential scenario is more plausible, we both took action towards achieving the same end goal. If yours works and mine doesn't, I'm still happy. And I'm sure vice versa applies as well.

In general, I'm glad the tone of the thread has shifted from a "Lets all get together and protest!" mentality to a "Lets come up with, and try to implement, a reasonable compromise."
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Kuildeous

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #211 on: January 10, 2014, 02:06:00 pm »
0

Does anyone else think that Goko might get insulted if they were told that reducing their average traffic is a good thing? It's a very counter-intuitive claim, and something that seems like it's making fun of Goko. Having too much traffic actually be an issue is just a really sad situation that should never have come about in the first place that you'd normally pretend never existed.


I don't think Goko would be insulted. I'm sure it has a very thick skin as of late.

What is more likely to happen is that Goko will not want to admit that it can't handle the server load.  Nobody wants to admit they were wrong. If Goko goes for this, then it will be expressly saying, "We bit off more than we could chew and now have to rely on someone else's resources to accomplish our goal." That's not going to look great to future investors either. At least if they stay the course, they have a chance of fixing things (in theory) and re-establish confidence among investors. If they sell out to an Iso clone, then they'll never regain that confidence.

Just my thought on that, but I'm no expert on corporate dealings. Maybe I'm wrong.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #212 on: January 10, 2014, 02:08:13 pm »
0

So: LastFootnote, sorry for being unnecessarily dickish.

Likewise, apologies for getting unnecessarily angry.

As a side note, I dug through Goko's code and it looks like it is written entirely in Javascript. This is problematic for a number of reasons. My fear now is that "fixing" Goko will necessitate an entire rewriting of the Dominion code to something more stable and server-side.

This article is fairly non-programmer-friendly which explains the limitations of Javascript: http://programming.oreilly.com/2013/07/javascript-is-way-too-slow-for-what.html

For the coders out there: http://sealedabstract.com/rants/why-mobile-web-apps-are-slow/

EDIT: Oh gosh. Since everything is handled client-side, it's extremely easy to alter certain things. See attachment:

Thanks for the linked articles. Being a software and web developer who has worked nearly exclusively with garbage-collected languages, has spent virtually no time thinking about memory management, and who is now working on a mobile version of our web application, I found it extremely interesting and helpful.

Luckily(?), new management at Goko is already aware that Javascript is not going to work out for making games on mobile devices. Back in August of 2013, they stated that they're developing a native iOS version of Dominion. Assuming our problems with Goko stem from overload of their servers, this could be good news as long as the mobile version(s) use the same servers as the web-based version. Since I believe the initial goal was to have desktop players be able to play with mobile players, this is a possibility. It's probably not going to happen, though.

What's probably going to happen is that the two versions will be completely separated and the web-based version will get the bare-minimum attention it needs (or less). Rio Grande will continue to contract with Goko because the iOS version will probably succeed far more than the silly web-based version (unless they totally botch it, which is possible). We will therefore be stuck with laggy, unreliable Dominion Online as it currently exists, since it's pretty cheap to keep those servers running while New Goko works on other, more profitable things. Sorry for being a pessimist, but that's how I see it going down.

One would typically expect contracts like the RGG - Goko contract to contain clauses requiring performance standards.  The fact that they haven't been triggered implies one of several possibilities: 1) they are no such clauses; 2) Goko has not breached those performance standards; 3) RGG is unaware that Goko has breached those standards; 4) Goko has not yet had enough time to breach those standards; 5) RGG is unwilling to trigger the clauses; or 6) they have been triggered, and we just haven't heard anything about it.

You are a lawyer, and I am most definitely not, so I'm legitimately curious as to why you think such clauses would exist. It seems to me like there's no guarantee in the contract that Goko would even deliver any sort of product at all, let alone one that meets any standard. They claim to have bought over a hundred licenses for games, yet they have delivered three. This article seems to indicate that there is no obligation at all on Goko's side. The contract is most likely primarily to protect Goko from any other competing implementations of these games that might arise (like isotropic).
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 02:11:47 pm by LastFootnote »
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Ozle

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #213 on: January 10, 2014, 02:14:41 pm »
0

Does anyone else think that Goko might get insulted if they were told that reducing their average traffic is a good thing? It's a very counter-intuitive claim, and something that seems like it's making fun of Goko. Having too much traffic actually be an issue is just a really sad situation that should never have come about in the first place that you'd normally pretend never existed.


I don't think Goko would be insulted. I'm sure it has a very thick skin as of late.

What is more likely to happen is that Goko will not want to admit that it can't handle the server load.  Nobody wants to admit they were wrong. If Goko goes for this, then it will be expressly saying, "We bit off more than we could chew and now have to rely on someone else's resources to accomplish our goal." That's not going to look great to future investors either. At least if they stay the course, they have a chance of fixing things (in theory) and re-establish confidence among investors. If they sell out to an Iso clone, then they'll never regain that confidence.

Just my thought on that, but I'm no expert on corporate dealings. Maybe I'm wrong.


Ahhh, but now is the perfect time, they have a new CEO, easy to admit to mistakes of the previous administration and then new plan to turn things around...
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #214 on: January 10, 2014, 02:19:19 pm »
0

IANAL but I think the performance requirements, if they exist, would not trigger until a certain time.  Otherwise Goko could buy the license, hire half of Google for help, and still not get a working product in the time it takes the ink to dry and someone to run to the courthouse to file for breach of contract based on those performance standards.


That point in time may lie in the future.  But a settlement before that point that makes bilateral changes to the contract is possible in advance, motivated by fears Goko has about its ability to meet those performance standards in the future.
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #215 on: January 10, 2014, 02:20:14 pm »
0

Does anyone else think that Goko might get insulted if they were told that reducing their average traffic is a good thing? It's a very counter-intuitive claim, and something that seems like it's making fun of Goko. Having too much traffic actually be an issue is just a really sad situation that should never have come about in the first place that you'd normally pretend never existed.


I don't think Goko would be insulted. I'm sure it has a very thick skin as of late.

What is more likely to happen is that Goko will not want to admit that it can't handle the server load.  Nobody wants to admit they were wrong. If Goko goes for this, then it will be expressly saying, "We bit off more than we could chew and now have to rely on someone else's resources to accomplish our goal." That's not going to look great to future investors either. At least if they stay the course, they have a chance of fixing things (in theory) and re-establish confidence among investors. If they sell out to an Iso clone, then they'll never regain that confidence.

Just my thought on that, but I'm no expert on corporate dealings. Maybe I'm wrong.


Ahhh, but now is the perfect time, they have a new CEO, easy to admit to mistakes of the previous administration and then new plan to turn things around...

I dunno, the XboxOne guy announced the change of direction, then "decided to resign" afterward. Maybe it tends to go the other way around in the business world.
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theory

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #216 on: January 10, 2014, 02:21:40 pm »
+3

One would typically expect contracts like the RGG - Goko contract to contain clauses requiring performance standards.  The fact that they haven't been triggered implies one of several possibilities: 1) they are no such clauses; 2) Goko has not breached those performance standards; 3) RGG is unaware that Goko has breached those standards; 4) Goko has not yet had enough time to breach those standards; 5) RGG is unwilling to trigger the clauses; or 6) they have been triggered, and we just haven't heard anything about it.

You are a lawyer, and I am most definitely not, so I'm legitimately curious as to why you think such clauses would exist. It seems to me like there's no guarantee in the contract that Goko would even deliver any sort of product at all, let alone one that meets any standard. They claim to have bought over a hundred licenses for games, yet they have delivered three. This article seems to indicate that there is no obligation at all on Goko's side. The contract is most likely primarily to protect Goko from any other competing implementations of these games that might arise (like isotropic).

I suppose it depends on how it is structured.  If you see it, as I do, as a contractor-type agreement, where you're contracting with someone to do something for you, then by definition you need performance benchmarks.  After all, RGG had a few criteria it really wanted implemented, so it stands to reason that they'd put that in the contract (i.e., you get this license but can't have pay-to-win, etc.) 

In any event, it should have these performance standards regardless, because it ensures that everyone's incentives are aligned.  Namely, here, Goko might think it's most financially effective to just quit and bail instead of throwing good money after bad, but RGG might not want its reputation slandered.

Of the possibilities I laid out above, I think the most likely is (4), where there just hasn't been enough time to trigger said clauses yet.
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Ozle

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #217 on: January 10, 2014, 02:27:44 pm »
+2

Does anyone else think that Goko might get insulted if they were told that reducing their average traffic is a good thing? It's a very counter-intuitive claim, and something that seems like it's making fun of Goko. Having too much traffic actually be an issue is just a really sad situation that should never have come about in the first place that you'd normally pretend never existed.


I don't think Goko would be insulted. I'm sure it has a very thick skin as of late.

What is more likely to happen is that Goko will not want to admit that it can't handle the server load.  Nobody wants to admit they were wrong. If Goko goes for this, then it will be expressly saying, "We bit off more than we could chew and now have to rely on someone else's resources to accomplish our goal." That's not going to look great to future investors either. At least if they stay the course, they have a chance of fixing things (in theory) and re-establish confidence among investors. If they sell out to an Iso clone, then they'll never regain that confidence.

Just my thought on that, but I'm no expert on corporate dealings. Maybe I'm wrong.


Ahhh, but now is the perfect time, they have a new CEO, easy to admit to mistakes of the previous administration and then new plan to turn things around...

I dunno, the XboxOne guy announced the change of direction, then "decided to resign" afterward. Maybe it tends to go the other way around in the business world.

Ahh, but the XboxOne guy wasnt the one in charge was he?

I am also not an expert in corportate strategy or law, but I am an expert in shifting blame!
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #218 on: January 10, 2014, 02:42:28 pm »
0

Does anyone else think that Goko might get insulted if they were told that reducing their average traffic is a good thing? It's a very counter-intuitive claim, and something that seems like it's making fun of Goko. Having too much traffic actually be an issue is just a really sad situation that should never have come about in the first place that you'd normally pretend never existed.

I don't think Goko would be insulted. I'm sure it has a very thick skin as of late.

What is more likely to happen is that Goko will not want to admit that it can't handle the server load.  Nobody wants to admit they were wrong. If Goko goes for this, then it will be expressly saying, "We bit off more than we could chew and now have to rely on someone else's resources to accomplish our goal." That's not going to look great to future investors either. At least if they stay the course, they have a chance of fixing things (in theory) and re-establish confidence among investors. If they sell out to an Iso clone, then they'll never regain that confidence.

Just my thought on that, but I'm no expert on corporate dealings. Maybe I'm wrong.


Ahhh, but now is the perfect time, they have a new CEO, easy to admit to mistakes of the previous administration and then new plan to turn things around...

I dunno, the XboxOne guy announced the change of direction, then "decided to resign" afterward. Maybe it tends to go the other way around in the business world.

Ahh, but the XboxOne guy wasnt the one in charge was he?

I am also not an expert in corportate strategy or law, but I am an expert in shifting blame!

I don't think so, I think that he was just one of the old higherups that was saying "sure" whenever a man with a camera asked if he could pitch some questions to a very high level manager with no PR training.
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Kirian

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #219 on: January 10, 2014, 02:56:45 pm »
+1

I am also not an expert in corportate strategy or law, but I am an expert in shifting blame!

Oooo me too!  I usually try to shift the blame onto the four-year-old, but sometimes the two-year-old gets some of the blame instead.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #220 on: January 10, 2014, 03:32:17 pm »
+5

I feel like we may have discussed this before, but why are we so focused on getting RGG to revoke the license from Goko rather than getting them to put pressure on Goko to make the damn product work? I agree Goko hasn't earned particularly high levels of confidence, but there's a lot more feasibility to that type of solution, and RGG is likely to be a lot more receptive since it involves less work for them.

Also, how thrilled are we going to be when the license transfers from Goko to somebody else, and we have to pay the new guys again for their implementation of Dominion?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #221 on: January 10, 2014, 03:37:28 pm »
0

I feel like we may have discussed this before, but why are we so focused on getting RGG to revoke the license from Goko rather than getting them to put pressure on Goko to make the damn product work? I agree Goko hasn't earned particularly high levels of confidence, but there's a lot more feasibility to that type of solution, and RGG is likely to be a lot more receptive since it involves less work for them.

Also, how thrilled are we going to be when the license transfers from Goko to somebody else, and we have to pay the new guys again for their implementation of Dominion?

This is a good call. I think the reason that we're thinking more about the license transfer is that Goko hasn't shown a lot of competence when it comes to certain things. Most notably, getting a good implementation of the web-based game would probably involve a complete rewrite of the code, which is something that (in my experience), the business side of the company will not go if they think they have any alternative.

As for paying again, I wouldn't be surprised if Goko eventually moved to a monthly subscription system, in which case we'll be paying more anyhow.
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #222 on: January 10, 2014, 03:47:09 pm »
0

There is only one opinion that appears in this thread that belongs to someone who at one point had the rights to Dominion, and has negotiated a transfer of those rights in a negotiation involving RGG.  That opinion suggested giving up all hope.  Why has it gotten so little attention?  I feel like six times as much time has been spent shooting down thought exercise ideas from a college student with an outpost avatar.
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #223 on: January 10, 2014, 04:16:20 pm »
0

There is only one opinion that appears in this thread that belongs to someone who at one point had the rights to Dominion, and has negotiated a transfer of those rights in a negotiation involving RGG.  That opinion suggested giving up all hope.  Why has it gotten so little attention?  I feel like six times as much time has been spent shooting down thought exercise ideas from a college student with an outpost avatar.

There was much more to my conversation with Donald than what I posted. It would be fair to say that we should not give up all hope.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 09:15:40 am by TheExpressicist »
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theory

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #224 on: January 10, 2014, 04:25:31 pm »
0

edit: moved to RSP
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Witherweaver

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #225 on: January 10, 2014, 04:28:51 pm »
0

What is a Derivative?

Doesn't that belong in the religion, sex, politics, and economics forum?!
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #226 on: January 10, 2014, 04:37:29 pm »
0

There is only one opinion that appears in this thread that belongs to someone who at one point had the rights to Dominion, and has negotiated a transfer of those rights in a negotiation involving RGG.  That opinion suggested giving up all hope.  Why has it gotten so little attention?  I feel like six times as much time has been spent shooting down thought exercise ideas from a college student with an outpost avatar.

I'd argue that while it suggested giving up all hope of getting the license transferred somewhere else (an opinion I'm inclined to agree with), it was neutral to mildly positive about the possibility of Goko getting its collective shit together, whether by applying pressure via RGG or otherwise. I quote:

"And that's going on as we speak. You say 'Goko' as if it's a group that's been with the project from day one, but people have come and gone, the people working on Goko and in charge of it today were not there as recently as a month ago (I don't have an exact date). I have no special reason to believe the current guys are bad so far; I can only wait and see if things start improving or not."

Rolled 1d6 : 3, total 3
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 04:38:44 pm by Stealth Tomato »
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #227 on: January 10, 2014, 04:53:35 pm »
0

Did you ask to quote the whole thing, and he said, "no, you can only post this part?"
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #228 on: January 10, 2014, 04:55:19 pm »
0

Yeah I know that Stealth Tomato, I meant, his recommended course of action, which was to do nothing besides wait on the Goko front.
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #229 on: January 11, 2014, 01:37:02 am »
0

Did you ask to quote the whole thing, and he said, "no, you can only post this part?"

I can't answer that. I know that's an obnoxiously cryptic answer, and I hate being cryptic. But I hate going back on my word even more than I hate being cryptic.

Looking back I realize I totally brought this upon myself. Sorry about that. I realize now it was obnoxious.
Incredibly.
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Blaarg

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #230 on: January 11, 2014, 09:41:51 am »
+1

If she is willing, I vote TheExpressicist should be our community representative.  From her posts in this thread she appears to me to be quite knowledgable of contract law and programming; and appears to have excellent judgement & temperament.  On top of that, she has already reached out to Donald and presumably has inside knowledge from that correspondence she is unwilling or unable to share. 

TheExpressicist, would you be willing to contact Goko and possibly RGG to see what can be done about the state of online dominion? 

This long time lurker made an account to voice his opinion
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LastFootnote

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #231 on: January 11, 2014, 11:12:06 am »
+7

Um, she's also done all this unilaterally. I don't think she needs an official title to do what she's already doing. She's going to do it anyway.

If we were going to nominate an "official representative", I'd prefer it to be someone we know that has some standing in the community like, say, Theory.
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soulnet

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #232 on: January 11, 2014, 11:13:08 am »
+15

If we were going to nominate an "official representative", I'd prefer it to be someone we know that has some standing in the community like, say, Theory.

Do you really think a representative like Theory would work in practice?
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practice

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #233 on: January 11, 2014, 11:30:05 am »
+9

If we were going to nominate an "official representative", I'd prefer it to be someone we know that has some standing in the community like, say, Theory.

Do you really think a representative like Theory would work in practice?
Hey, I could become the official representative!
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() | (_) ^/

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #234 on: January 11, 2014, 01:01:28 pm »
+1

If we were going to nominate an "official representative", I'd prefer it to be someone we know that has some standing in the community like, say, Theory.

Do you really think a representative like Theory would work in practice?
Hey, I could become the official representative!

needs more practice
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Ozle

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #235 on: January 11, 2014, 01:04:58 pm »
+26

Oh oh oh!

Memememememe!!

I have a draft letter all ready to go!


Dear Mr Goko,

I represent a collective group of Dominion addicts (whats the collective noun? A Kingdom of Dominion players), some of whom still hold out hope that the Goko project will turn into the shining beacon of online play.

There are others that want to turn up at your offices and beat you to death with a ValtaDominion case (tm)

We would like to open discussions with you that achieves the former rather than the latter. We have a law expert on hand (his name is Theory, he is super scary) so don't try any mumbo jumbo, and we have a tech expert (Geronimooo still about?) on hand as well in case you try to bamboozle us with science.

Now these days, the word 'lynch mob' gets thrown around too lightly, but well......i think you see my point.

We are willing to swop the following things for the licence to make Dominion:
Advertising space on the dominion wiki
Yumas  new baby
+1 respect votes on your next 10 posts
A spot at the front of the mafia mod queue
All posts ever made by Wereo (making you the 5th highest poster)
A empty Lemonade Snaffle glass to drink from
The promise that we won't spam your website with 'Games that go nowhere'
Peace of mind for DonaldX
The stopping of a gazillion threads on FDS

And if none of that works we'll get WanderingWinder to force you to watch his Youtube videos till your eyes bleed!

Yours

Faithfully (but not sincerley)

Ozle
Representative of the Angry Mob
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yuma

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #236 on: January 11, 2014, 01:40:09 pm »
+9

Oh oh oh!
We are willing to swop the following things for the licence to make Dominion:
Advertising space on the dominion wiki
Yumas  new baby

HEY!!!!!

That should be yuma's new baby....
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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #237 on: January 11, 2014, 01:49:38 pm »
0

Oh oh oh!
We are willing to swop the following things for the licence to make Dominion:
Advertising space on the dominion wiki
Yumas  new baby

HEY!!!!!

That should be yuma's new baby....

I was assuming we had more than one Yuma
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TheExpressicist

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #238 on: January 11, 2014, 01:58:07 pm »
+3

I appreciate the vote of confidence, Blarg. But, ultimately LastFootnote is right. At this point I don't think we are at the stage where we need an official representative. We are still trying to get Goko/RGG's ear; it is much easier to ignore one Official Representative than it is to ignore a large number of people all offering the same unified, reasonable suggestion.

Once (if) a specific plan is agreed to by RGG/Goko, then I think we should start looking into having a few de facto leaders. But let's cross that bridge when we come to it, as much of it will depend on the requirements of whatever plan emerges. Thank you again though for the vote of confidence.

Also.... She? Did I check the wrong box somewhere?
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Awaclus

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #240 on: January 11, 2014, 02:32:08 pm »
0

Memememememe!!
Okay, you can have a meme if you want one that badly.

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IanP

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #241 on: January 12, 2014, 07:29:09 pm »
0

I decided against paying Goko at Christmas after I experienced the lag others had been talking about.  I tried it again tonight and was in my 4th game on the basic cards, experiencing lags, when my opponent suddenly stopped playing, or so  thought...  Goko had, without warning, decided to undertake some "routine maintenance".


I'd happily pay for Isotrophic to return.
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manthos88

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #242 on: January 12, 2014, 07:40:26 pm »
0

Do i see "Yes" and "Yes" choices in the poll?? Anyway, i voted "Yes"! :P
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jonts26

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #243 on: January 12, 2014, 08:03:55 pm »
+1

Do i see "Yes" and "Yes" choices in the poll?? Anyway, i voted "Yes"! :P

But which yes was it?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 08:35:57 pm by jonts26 »
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heron

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #244 on: January 12, 2014, 08:08:17 pm »
0

Do i see "Yes" and "Yes" choices in the poll?? Anyway, i voted "Yes"! :P

But which yes was is?

The top one, of course.
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #245 on: January 12, 2014, 08:21:43 pm »
+1

The real future is, in about two months I will be making bank charging people for access to my skypinion directory and matchmaker

I'll wait you out, you'll all come soon.  Attrition.
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Polk5440

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #246 on: January 13, 2014, 11:58:15 am »
0

Do i see "Yes" and "Yes" choices in the poll?? Anyway, i voted "Yes"! :P

But which yes was is?

The top one, of course.

The bottom yes is actually no.
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elahrairah13

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #247 on: January 24, 2014, 12:38:22 pm »
+4

There is no way that Goko and RGG are going to agree to an iso-style implementation that co-exists with Goko - even if it is password protected for only Goko purchasers.

I just wrote to RGG.

"Hello!
I'm a giant Dominion fan (well... addict to be honest). I apologize if you've received a bunch of messages like this, but I've found the online implementation (Goko) to be excessively frustrating. I have purchased all of the Dominion sets in physical form (except Dark Ages, as I fear the cards are too complicated for my daughter to play) and would love to play them online - and would pay for what I deem to be an acceptable version of that. However, Goko is just so buggy and unreliable that I haven't purchased the cards there. I'm not alone in that. I contribute to an online community of Dominion fans, and many people (including many who bought the cards on Goko) are extremely dissatisfied.
Many of us are talking about how we might possibly get back a version of online Dominion that we like. The night I first played Dominion (in real life) I really liked it. I went home, searched online, and found the old unofficial implementation (isotropic). It was there that I became hooked - buying the physical sets quickly followed. I understand why it had to go, of course - Goko needed a blank slate to get their foot in the door. Unfortunately it seems that their version is just not up to the task.
So to round to the point, I would like to urge you guys to seek alternative licensing arrangements whenever your contract with Goko allows. In fact, if you're comfortable disclosing some details of your contract (and not legally prohibited from doing so), I would love to get some information from you about it. A few of us have seriously discussed pooling money in an attempt to purchase the license. I'm sure it's a pipedream, but we have a community full of folks who are willing to kick in to a crowdsourced version of purchasing the online license in order to implement something more like isotropic.
Thank you for your time and for the work you've done publishing an awesome game. "

I got a reply to this a few days ago.

"We have discussed the situation with Goko and they have promised to have the problems corrected this week. Many were caused by moving the system to a new server. Thanks for your interest."

Not much of an answer, but there you go. I might reply to the effect of "thanks for the reply, I don't mean to take much more of your time, but I just want to register with you that these were not temporary problems, these are problems that have always plagued Goko and I hope you consider bailing on them when the license is over".
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sudgy

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #248 on: January 24, 2014, 12:41:14 pm »
0

Actually, if they're moving to a new server, that might be good.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Kirian

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #249 on: January 24, 2014, 01:50:41 pm »
0

Not much of an answer, but there you go. I might reply to the effect of "thanks for the reply, I don't mean to take much more of your time, but I just want to register with you that these were not temporary problems, these are problems that have always plagued Goko and I hope you consider bailing on them when the license is over".

Yeah, I tend to agree.
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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #250 on: January 25, 2014, 02:45:00 am »
+2

Not much of an answer, but there you go. I might reply to the effect of "thanks for the reply, I don't mean to take much more of your time, but I just want to register with you that these were not temporary problems, these are problems that have always plagued Goko and I hope you consider bailing on them when the license is over".

Yeah, I tend to agree.
Goko will be the highest bidder for the next period of licensing though.

Without any reasonable metrics linking Goko's failures to lower RGG sales (if they even are that much lower, I'm buying less from RGG because of this but I don't know about the population), only the highest bidder is going to matter.

The circle of life will continue.
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yuma

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #251 on: January 25, 2014, 08:38:51 am »
+4

I'm buying less from RGG because of this but I don't know about the population, only the highest bidder is going to matter.

I certainly am. I had my eyes on RftG expansions for a while and decided to buy other games from another game company solely because of the Goko debacle. And I sent off an e-mail explaining why. I think the e-mail part is the most important aspect. Just not buying isn't enough. You have to let them know 1. that you aren't buying and 2. why. I think there is a surprisingly large segment of the game buying population in this area (at least a handful of my friends, who don't frequent these forums, are pretty put out with RGG as well).
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elahrairah13

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #252 on: January 25, 2014, 05:54:59 pm »
+1

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Witherweaver

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #253 on: January 25, 2014, 08:43:11 pm »
0

Did http://www.goko.com/games/ always say "Goko Beta"?
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Kirian

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #254 on: January 25, 2014, 09:11:18 pm »
0

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popsofctown

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Re: Petition for the return of Isotropic
« Reply #255 on: January 28, 2014, 12:40:24 am »
0

I was actually thinking of the Nasus quote from League, because it is fittingly darker.
"The cycle of life continues: We will live, they will die."
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