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Author Topic: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)  (Read 51981 times)

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Octo

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #100 on: December 01, 2011, 06:06:04 am »
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Quote
if Chapel is in the game, who's gonna be worried about curses? you could get rid of them faster than the Rats could give them out
The thing is that when there's trashing cards out there (remake would be another good example, but opening 2xAmbassador would be rough also) not everyone will go for a trashing strat necessarily (including if chapel is out there). If a certain combo is too strong however, they will forced into a certain strategic response. That happens occasionally in the game already, but the thing is that's not the best game design, it's not as fun to be forced into down fixed paths.
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rinkworks

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #101 on: December 01, 2011, 09:53:05 am »
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if Chapel is in the game, who's gonna be worried about curses? you could get rid of them faster than the Rats could give them out
The thing is that when there's trashing cards out there (remake would be another good example, but opening 2xAmbassador would be rough also) not everyone will go for a trashing strat necessarily (including if chapel is out there). If a certain combo is too strong however, they will forced into a certain strategic response. That happens occasionally in the game already, but the thing is that's not the best game design, it's not as fun to be forced into down fixed paths.

That, and also the fact that even if you can and do trash the curses faster than they come in, there is still a huge cost to having to do that in the first place.  If you Chapel away curses on your turn, you're spending an action that might have been better spent on something else.  Moreover, for each curse you Chapel away, that's a lost card slot in your hand.  If you hadn't had that Curse in the first place, maybe you'd have drawn a Goons or a Gold or a Wharf instead.  Even if you'd only have drawn an Estate, that's an Estate that won't have clogged your next turn.

This is the real reason why Cursing attacks are so dominant:  the -1 VP is secondary to the clogging power, even in a game with heavy trashing (though it's obviously much worse without it).

That said, I'm still inclined to give this current Rats the benefit of the doubt.  The trappiness of Fool's Gold and Treasure Map show just how powerful an effect on a cheap card can be if you have to pair them up to activate it.  Rats has a small draw to help you do that, but you need three rather than two.  That said, I'm bewildered why you took my one criticism as a compliment:  the fact that people will buy these just because they're there rather than because they want to pursue a Rats strategy is NOT a good thing.  It's a semi-serious flaw that may indeed make the card itself more fun, but at the expense of the fun of the games in which they appear.  That happens a lot with fan cards:  their creators want the cards to be used, so they make them a little too powerful and/or a little too obligatory.

But I still think the card is worth testing in its latest revision.   You'll discover for yourself better than I can predict how to refine the card from this point.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 09:55:08 am by rinkworks »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #102 on: December 02, 2011, 07:29:05 pm »
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Here's a problem with Rats in its latest incarnation:

In a 4-player game, at least one person will necessarily end up with 2 or fewer Rats.

If Rats is the only curser on the board, that person will have a horrible time of it.
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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #103 on: December 02, 2011, 08:05:51 pm »
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That's true, although if the other three are all cursing, does it make that much difference whether or not you do? I haven't played enough 4p games to be able to answer this, but it certainly makes a lot less difference than in 2p.
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #104 on: December 02, 2011, 09:21:38 pm »
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a) not everybody goes the cursing route
b) even the people who go for 3 Rats won't get to curse all that often, unless they focus on it at the cost of building their deck in other ways
c) if one person decides to really go Rats crazy, there might only be one person in a 4 player game who bought enough Rats to curse.

but that's the point of Rats. it's a weak card that gets better the more you have. if you don't get on board early, when they're weak, you'll miss out on capitalizing on their strength later. this is a solid strategic choice and it makes the card interesting and, imo, fair. but i need to do more playtesting, which is to happen soon...

and @rinkworks: no, i didn't think you were complimenting the design of Rats when you said they might bought 'just because.' but my response is that that criticism is actually a strength in my mind. i said that i wanted Rats to cost 1$ from the start, but i didn't really say why: for 2 reasons, the 1$ makes them both small and insidious. they sneak their way into decks by being a cheap second buy. but they don't really do anything until they reach a critical mass. i like this about the card.
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Octo

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #105 on: December 03, 2011, 05:17:20 am »
+1

Overall (this is a problem I find with my own card-day-dreams also), the thing is that people tend to think of an image, a style, a thing or object that they want a card to be, then think of what mechanics it should employ. Really we should all be thinking of good card mechanics to play, and then worry about what to call them after the fact (and whether they fit into a set). It's too easy to get hung up and on what you've called the card and fuss over whether the action/mechanics match it or not. So in your case - whether or not the current incarnation is successful - you've hung your hat on the fact that you want a card to embody rats, and so from that have drawn that at least a) it can't be expensive and b) has to occur in multiples. You've also gone so far as to stipulate that you want it cost $1. The card has changed radically, yet the name always remains the same and it generally has been a hinderance to the well being of the card from what I see.

Sure, you might spot a conceptual niche that doesn't have a card etc, but that's more to do with unexploited mechanics and thematic derivation. So, while you may have arrived at a good solution, this is completely the wrong way to go about it in general.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 05:24:01 am by Octo »
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rinkworks

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #106 on: December 03, 2011, 10:08:58 am »
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Overall (this is a problem I find with my own card-day-dreams also), the thing is that people tend to think of an image, a style, a thing or object that they want a card to be, then think of what mechanics it should employ. Really we should all be thinking of good card mechanics to play, and then worry about what to call them after the fact (and whether they fit into a set). It's too easy to get hung up and on what you've called the card and fuss over whether the action/mechanics match it or not. So in your case - whether or not the current incarnation is successful - you've hung your hat on the fact that you want a card to embody rats, and so from that have drawn that at least a) it can't be expensive and b) has to occur in multiples. You've also gone so far as to stipulate that you want it cost $1. The card has changed radically, yet the name always remains the same and it generally has been a hinderance to the well being of the card from what I see.

Sure, you might spot a conceptual niche that doesn't have a card etc, but that's more to do with unexploited mechanics and thematic derivation. So, while you may have arrived at a good solution, this is completely the wrong way to go about it in general.

This should be framed and hung over the fireplace.  I don't have a fireplace, but this post is a good reason to get one.

This is true of probably any game, but particularly in Dominion where the flavor is a lot less (and the mechanics more) important than in many other games.

By far my most favorite cards in Dominion are the ones with cool mechanics (Jester, Minion, Golem) rather than the ones with cool flavor (Saboteur, Baron, Jack of All Trades).  I do admire clever flavor, but that's not why Dominion is a great game or why it continues to sustain my interest.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 10:11:15 am by rinkworks »
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #107 on: December 03, 2011, 12:39:57 pm »
+1

Overall (this is a problem I find with my own card-day-dreams also), the thing is that people tend to think of an image, a style, a thing or object that they want a card to be, then think of what mechanics it should employ. Really we should all be thinking of good card mechanics to play, and then worry about what to call them after the fact (and whether they fit into a set). It's too easy to get hung up and on what you've called the card and fuss over whether the action/mechanics match it or not. So in your case - whether or not the current incarnation is successful - you've hung your hat on the fact that you want a card to embody rats, and so from that have drawn that at least a) it can't be expensive and b) has to occur in multiples. You've also gone so far as to stipulate that you want it cost $1. The card has changed radically, yet the name always remains the same and it generally has been a hinderance to the well being of the card from what I see.

Sure, you might spot a conceptual niche that doesn't have a card etc, but that's more to do with unexploited mechanics and thematic derivation. So, while you may have arrived at a good solution, this is completely the wrong way to go about it in general.

This should be framed and hung over the fireplace.  I don't have a fireplace, but this post is a good reason to get one.

This is true of probably any game, but particularly in Dominion where the flavor is a lot less (and the mechanics more) important than in many other games.

By far my most favorite cards in Dominion are the ones with cool mechanics (Jester, Minion, Golem) rather than the ones with cool flavor (Saboteur, Baron, Jack of All Trades).  I do admire clever flavor, but that's not why Dominion is a great game or why it continues to sustain my interest.
and while i am dedicated to solid mechanics, i completely disagree with both of you on this point. not that you're wrong. not at all. only that i also am right.
there are at least 2 ways of going about things, in this case card creation. from the ground up and top down. if i'm inspired by a concept and then work hard enough to make it work, that creation is equal in merit to a card created based on mechanics and then dressed up in flavor after the fact. both will appeal to different people. and there are good and bad things to both approaches. but to say your favored approach is the 'right' one, should be the 'only' one, is too limited a view.
i just want to stand up for those of us who'd rather dream first and do the math later.

EDIT: sorry if i offended anybody.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 02:21:44 pm by plasticbrain »
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rinkworks

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #108 on: December 03, 2011, 01:54:41 pm »
+1

Saying "not to be insulting" doesn't make it okay to say something insulting.  Not to be insulting.
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #109 on: December 03, 2011, 02:26:28 pm »
0

Saying "not to be insulting" doesn't make it okay to say something insulting.  Not to be insulting.
i truly did not mean to be insulting and added that comment because i was afraid i would be taken the wrong way. i guess i should have just re-worded it from the start (as i have edited it above), but i feel very strongly on this issue. sorry if you took offense, but i took offense at having my creative process labeled as 'completely the wrong way to go about it.'
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Octo

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #110 on: December 03, 2011, 03:55:52 pm »
+1

Yeah, well, maybe "completely the wrong way to go about it" was too harsh, and at the end of the day if the cards are good when it's all said and done then how you got there doesn't matter. However, you hit on the key point when you say "work hard enough to make it work" - it's much trickier to make cards that work from that direction, hence why rats is being such a problem.

I'm pretty sure though that most people would agree that the flavour in Dominion is minimal and it's the mechanics that make it so addictive - frankly, the game could be about just about anything at all, most of the time the people I play with barely consider what the cards actually represent. Compare to something like Pandemic which is absolutely bursting with theme - sure you could translate it to other themes, but the petri dishes, the world map, the scientific roles, all of it, accentuate it and give it a ton of flavour.

So it's because of this that with dominion the mechanical interactions of the cards are of prime importance so that they aren't outclassed by the existing set (that's a big ask though), and so nailing the mechanics should, in my opinion, be the main priority and first port of call. Would I like the game to be super themey? Sure. But the mechanics of it just don't promote that (though to be honest, a little italic line of flavour text on each card could've been a great addition to this game if done right). Still, after it's all said and done, I'm never going to play with these - nothing personal, I'm just not about to make a set of random people's fan cards - so whatever floats your boat really. We can all say the cards are great and fine as they are, which would be banal and pointless. Or we can all not get into strong disagreements about these cards and methods, but then you'd probably have a half-empty thread with some tepid critique that peters out. *shrugs*
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 04:02:00 pm by Octo »
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Saucery

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #111 on: December 03, 2011, 04:52:16 pm »
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It doesn't matter where you start, whether its being inspired by a visual theme/concept or by some kind of mechanic that hasn't been explored yet. The problem here appears to be the iteration process between the two. If you keep putting bandaid solutions on a card design you end up with something which is needlessly complicated and should start over with just the original idea.

I'm sure there are a gazillion ways to represent the basic theme(s) of the card.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 05:02:20 pm by Saucery »
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rinkworks

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #112 on: December 04, 2011, 01:56:28 pm »
+1

Here's the thing.  When you think about flavor, you have the whole of human history at your disposal.  Even if you stick with Dominion's medieval theme (which you don't have to) there are limitless possibilities.  You've got the whole worlds of zoology, botany, metallurgy, leatherworking, chemistry, agriculture, and warfare.  You've got landscaping and trinket-making and mining and civil engineering.  You can delve into academia or politics or society, deal with the nobility or the working classes or criminal masterminds.  You can edge into fantasy with mythical creatures and magic and heroes and villains.  There are myriad roles and professions and accoutrements of all the world's cultures and religions and artifacts.  No matter what you want to do, there are hundreds if not thousands of great people or places or things that fit the flavor.

The game of Dominion, however, is teensy weensy by comparison.  Basically all you can do is manage your deck, earn coins, and accrue points.  And interfere with your opponents' ability to do those things too.  You've got 4-5 vanilla bonuses, and you can move cards in different ways between a limited number of places.  That's it.  And most of the interesting ways to combine these things have already been done!  I do believe there is plenty of room left for fan cards, but they're almost all variations on existing themes rather than wholly new ideas.

What I'm getting at is that if you've got a particular Dominion mechanic that you want, you should have no problem at all finding a name with great flavor for it that reflects the concept.  This is not, and cannot, be true if you go the other direction.  Because the entire world and all of human history is a pretty wide net, it's necessarily the case that many possible names and flavors -- probably the vast majority, in fact -- will not make a great flavor match to any good Dominion mechanics.

Understand, I don't fault anyone for arriving at a great Dominion card by starting with the flavor.  A great Dominion card is a great Dominion card, period.  But if you start with the flavor and wind up with a great Dominion card, you got lucky.  And to design cards that way as a matter of course is probably foolhardy and doomed to failure overall.  Because some concepts cannot make great Dominion cards.  What's liable to happen is exactly what's happened here:  you struggle to find a mechanic that fits the flavor, go through many more revisions than most cards ever see or need, then find something that's interesting but flawed -- something that might be improvable, but won't be, because you're constrained by the arbitrary flavor parameters you set out for yourself at the outset.

But find a great Dominion mechanic first, and you can pretty much guarantee that there are great names for it out there somewhere.  You might have a hard time thinking of one, but you never have to worry that the problem might lack a solution.

Ultimately, if you really want to start with the flavor, by all means, do it.  Why shouldn't you?  But don't mistake that path as being an equally legitimate way to design a great Dominion card, and don't expect your fellow game designers, whose opinions you've solicited here, to be behind you on that path.
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #113 on: January 15, 2012, 07:54:57 am »
0

okay, i've just thought up a whole new version of my infamous Rats card. one that might satisfy my critics out there... or gain me new ones  :-\

Rats – Action-Attack – 1$
Trash this card and each other player gains a Curse.
Setup: Add an extra Kingdom card pile to the supply. Then, shuffle that pile and the Rats pile together into a single pile.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 08:52:11 am by plasticbrain »
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Glooble

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #114 on: January 15, 2012, 08:09:25 am »
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I assume you can only gain the card on top of the pile?
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #115 on: January 15, 2012, 08:46:57 am »
0

I assume you can only gain the card on top of the pile?
yes, that's my intent. thanks for the question Glooble. i'm thinking i don't need to say that on the card, because the top card of a Kingdom pile represents which Kingdom it is. but maybe this is just an assumption of mine. rules gurus? do i need to be explicit about this?

if so, then will this do?
Rats – Action-Attack – 1$
Trash this card and each other player gains a Curse.
Setup: Add an extra Kingdom card pile to the supply. Then, shuffle that pile and the Rats pile together into a single pile. Cards from this pile may only be gained from the top.

and how about this new version of Morgue?
Morgue - Action - 4$
"Reveal all cards in your discard pile. Choose one of them and put it into your hand."
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 11:31:53 am by plasticbrain »
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FishingVillage

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #116 on: January 15, 2012, 09:32:55 pm »
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Are we allowed to peek at the pile containing Rats to see the order of the cards?
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #117 on: January 15, 2012, 10:38:08 pm »
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Are we allowed to peek at the pile containing Rats to see the order of the cards?
i don't think this has been made explicit in the rules, since a situation where this would be important has never presented itself. i would thus assume, yes, you can look at the order. but this is one of those 'rules' that i don't think needs to be on the card itself, just as Black Market has necessary understandings that are not printed on it.
but i do now think that the "Cards from this pile may only be gained from the top." text is necessary unfortunately.
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FishingVillage

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #118 on: January 16, 2012, 12:17:46 am »
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Are we allowed to peek at the pile containing Rats to see the order of the cards?
i don't think this has been made explicit in the rules, since a situation where this would be important has never presented itself. i would thus assume, yes, you can look at the order. but this is one of those 'rules' that i don't think needs to be on the card itself, just as Black Market has necessary understandings that are not printed on it.
but i do now think that the "Cards from this pile may only be gained from the top." text is necessary unfortunately.
Well it might be important to know if I uncover a Rat or not upon buying something off of that pile. If I have this knowledge I'll likely hold off from buying it until I have enough buys and money for both, or any combination of card X with N Rats directly underneath.
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #119 on: January 16, 2012, 08:18:35 pm »
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Well it might be important to know if I uncover a Rat or not upon buying something off of that pile. If I have this knowledge I'll likely hold off from buying it until I have enough buys and money for both, or any combination of card X with N Rats directly underneath.
you're absolutely right. it is important to know that. and i'm saying that, yes, you can look to see the order BUT i don't think that has to be printed on the card. it can be explained on the rule sheet, just as every expansion and promo already includes.
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FishingVillage

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #120 on: January 16, 2012, 08:26:51 pm »
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Ah ok, got it. Thanks for the clarification.
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #121 on: August 08, 2012, 04:14:48 pm »
+6

well, i just wanted to point out that i called it ALL here. so many of the problems you guys had with my cards are now present in Dark Ages:
a. $1 cards
b. new types of Curses (Ruins)
c. cards that let you get things from the trash
d. cards that care about the order of the supply stack they are in
e. there's even a card that cares what Treasures you have in hand before the buy phase (which was an earlier design for Relief that i might go back to)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 04:16:36 pm by plasticbrain »
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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #122 on: August 08, 2012, 04:37:55 pm »
0

well, i just wanted to point out that i called it ALL here. so many of the problems you guys had with my cards are now present in Dark Ages:
a. $1 cards
b. new types of Curses (Ruins)
c. cards that let you get things from the trash
d. cards that care about the order of the supply stack they are in
e. there's even a card that cares what Treasures you have in hand before the buy phase (which was an earlier design for Relief that i might go back to)

Donald X., is that you?
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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #123 on: August 09, 2012, 09:27:20 am »
+1

well, i just wanted to point out that i called it ALL here. so many of the problems you guys had with my cards are now present in Dark Ages:
a. $1 cards
b. new types of Curses (Ruins)
c. cards that let you get things from the trash
d. cards that care about the order of the supply stack they are in
e. there's even a card that cares what Treasures you have in hand before the buy phase (which was an earlier design for Relief that i might go back to)
f. Rats!
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zahlman

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #124 on: August 09, 2012, 11:13:51 am »
0

well, i just wanted to point out that i called it ALL here. so many of the problems you guys had with my cards are now present in Dark Ages:
a. $1 cards
b. new types of Curses (Ruins)
c. cards that let you get things from the trash
d. cards that care about the order of the supply stack they are in
e. there's even a card that cares what Treasures you have in hand before the buy phase (which was an earlier design for Relief that i might go back to)
f. Rats!

Damn, you beat me to it. Seriously, this is uncanny, though.
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