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Author Topic: When is Pearl Diver (or spy) any good?  (Read 5218 times)

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gman314

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When is Pearl Diver (or spy) any good?
« on: April 16, 2012, 06:55:25 pm »
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I was thinking about some cards which have a bit of a bad reputation and I was trying to think about which of those I've used successfully in some sort of combo. I've used Apothecary, Wishing Well and Coppersmith together and I've used both Secret Chamber and Oasis as part of a double-Tactitian engine, but I've never used Pearl Diver except to pick it up for lack of any other $2. It doesn't hurt your deck, but does it ever help your deck? And by extension, does Spy ever help your deck?
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Jack Rudd

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Re: When is Pearl Diver (or spy) any good?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2012, 07:01:13 pm »
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Peddler, Conspirator, Scrying Pool and Horn of Plenty love cantrips in general, and Spy and Pearl Diver fall into that category.
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DG

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Re: When is Pearl Diver (or spy) any good?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2012, 07:05:16 pm »
+1

In general, whenever silver is a bad buy you'll find that the pearl diver and spy are decent buys. That might seem like a non-statement of sorts but remember that silver has the second highest "win without" stat in the council room.

For a more specific answer, if you're using another drawing such as a treasury then you can play the pearl diver first and get the benefit of the pearl diver this turn when you play the treasury to draw the top card. If you can't draw cards after the pearl diver then you've only improved your draw deck for the following turn and the distinction matters in a 16 turn game.
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Asklepios

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Re: When is Pearl Diver (or spy) any good?
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2012, 08:22:55 pm »
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Spy marginally benefits top-of-deck effects as well, like Jester, Swindler and Scrying Pool. Its a weak benefit to Scrying Pool, of course, but can slightly up the odds of Scrying Pool drawing you a load of actions. Failing all else drawing it after or using Scrying Pool then lets you use the Spy to scrape up the stuff that Scrying Pool left behind.

I also find Spy is useful for decks which need to chain lots of cantrip effects sequentially, as Jack Rudd says. Not Cartographer good, but sometimes you've got a spare $4 after buying your Grand Markets, and a Spy is better than a silver when you intend to chain multiple cards without proper drawing power.

Pearl Diver doesn't help top-of-deck attacks, of course, so is less useful in that sense, but can I find it has a minor synergy with cards that search through the top of your own deck, like Farming Village, Golem or Venture. That is, if your Pearl Diver gets something desirable, you top deck it (that's the obvious bit). But if the Pearl Diver gets you something useless that you can bypass, then top deck it then bypass it to get that card from your deck to your discard, and hence miss it on this shuffle. For example, pearl dive an estate to the top of your deck, then hit farming village, and you draw the card that farming village would have anyway, but don't have to draw that estate till after the next reshuffle.

I'm not arguing that Spy or Pearl Diver are strong cards, of course, just pointing out a few other ways they might be useful.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 08:26:29 pm by Asklepios »
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jomini

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Re: When is Pearl Diver (or spy) any good?
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2012, 08:27:41 pm »
+1

Pearl diver works quite well when you want any cantrip notable examples include:
1. Peddler - decrease the cost so you can buy as many as you have buys.
2. Horn of Plenty - get another card in play easy.
3. Apothecary/cartographer chaining (less commonly - scout and navigator); the ability to reorder your top deck allows you to be certain that you get the one card you need to keep the chain alive (apothecary/pd can allow you to draw a second apothecary and then play it for another 3 coin and clear the estate off your deck - much better than a silver); using other cantrips as draw cards allows you to use the look ahead function of the main engine cards more just for the look ahead than as a simple draw. Spy/apothecary is particularly good as you can set up very nice draw/sift combos of get the card you need/discard an estate that wouldn't work otherwise.
4. Diversity fodder - menage, harvest, and tournament all like cheap cantrips that add diversity to the deck without taking up "real" hand space.
5. Conspirator - start the chain.
6. Using TR/Golem as a psuedo village (e.g. you want to play a torturer/TR chain, adding in a cantrip can make the chain much more reliable).

Specific cases:
1. Native village - if you are using the native village as a psuedo-trasher (e.g. a sea hag, fortune teller, rabble game, etc.) pd and spy can work quite well to make sure that something safe goes onto the mat rather than a plat.
2. Farming village/venture/golem/etc. sifting. Using either spy (e.g. discard coppers to increase the odds of venture hitting a gold) or pd (e.g. pulling up greens from the deck bottom before you farming village, actions before you lab) can allow you to set up better sifting.
3. Tunnel - spy and pd are both decent at increasing your odds of hitting tunnel (e.g. embassy/tunnel is strong, embassy/pd increases your search space on embassy turns by 1 card; embassy/spy increases your search space by 2 cards); tunnel does compete with spy for the buy, but after a certain point, you'd rather have the movement and more activation chances than more tunnels.
4. Spy, of course, works extremely well in jester/swindler games. A number of other opponent top deck interactions get some help with spy (e.g. tribute works a bit better with spy). Doubling or trebling your odds of hitting something key is nothing to sneeze at.
5. Goons - spy is good because it is a cantrip attack that can lesson the chances of your opponent hitting his goons or his engine components. Once I get a few goons, I'll likely start buying spies over silver at 4; spies don't decrease the odds of goons pairing, silvers do. PD is, of course, cheap and can be spam bought for massive points.
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gman314

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Re: When is Pearl Diver (or spy) any good?
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 03:51:49 pm »
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So, what I'm getting from this is that they're both useful as support for other combos, but that you probably won't find a combo that hinges around Pearl Diver or Spy. Is that correct?
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ftl

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Re: When is Pearl Diver (or spy) any good?
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 03:57:30 pm »
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Yes.
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Robz888

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Re: When is Pearl Diver (or spy) any good?
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 03:59:59 pm »
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Both go well with Menagerie. Menagerie wants card diversity, and they are both cards that add to that diversity without harming your deck (like too many terminals, or something). Additionally, both allow you to sort of manage what's going to come in to your hand when you play Menagerie.
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GendoIkari

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Re: When is Pearl Diver (or spy) any good?
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 04:27:17 pm »
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4. Diversity fodder - menage, harvest, and tournament all like cheap cantrips that add diversity to the deck without taking up "real" hand space.


How does Tournament want diversity? If anything, cantrips are worse in Tournament games, because they decrease the odds of you holding a Province during your opponent's turn. Also, you forgot Fairgrounds.
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jotheonah

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Re: When is Pearl Diver (or spy) any good?
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 06:45:59 pm »
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An opening spy is a good high-variance gambit since it can make a foe's key card skip a reshuffle.  Say your opponent opens 5/2 and nabs a Witch. You might grab Spy on your 3/4 for the chance of making their Witch skip the shuffle. It's a slim chance, but maybe worth a try from the weaker position. Or ditto their Potion, but less so since Spy and Potion are both $4 and therefore compete.
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DG

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Re: When is Pearl Diver (or spy) any good?
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 06:57:16 pm »
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Quote
So, what I'm getting from this is that they're both useful as support for other combos, but that you probably won't find a combo that hinges around Pearl Diver or Spy. Is that correct?

You might that these cards give a surprising amount of value on occasions, to the extent that otherwise poor cards will instead provide good value. An example might be lookout + pearl diver, since the lookout might give you an early hand with only 2 coins to spend and the pearl diver can be played before or after the lookout for benefit. On its own it isn't going to win you the game though.
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CaptainNevada

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Re: When is Pearl Diver (or spy) any good?
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 07:12:03 pm »
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Spy is sometimes useful with other cards that work from the top of your opponent's decks.   

Pirate Ship:  If an enemy has treasure on the top of the deck, you know you can hit it.  If they don't, playing it for the cash might be the better option.
Thief / Noble Brigand:  Again, spy is going to reveal one of the top two cards they are going to discard as part of the attack.  It may be a play / don't play decision with partial knowledge.
Tribute:  You'll know part of what Tribute is going to do and can play with more certainty (+2 actions, +2 cards, +2 $)

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Tonks77

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Re: When is Pearl Diver (or spy) any good?
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2012, 05:24:16 am »
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I think the most interesting aspect of Pearl Diver is the fact the cards at the bottom of your deck are most likely to miss the reshuffle. So putting a gold or another keycard from bottom to the top can ensure you to play it this and the next shuffle.

On the other hand keeping a green card or a curse at the bottom will increase the odds of playing it only once in two shuffles.
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jomini

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Re: When is Pearl Diver (or spy) any good?
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2012, 10:10:41 am »
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4. Diversity fodder - menage, harvest, and tournament all like cheap cantrips that add diversity to the deck without taking up "real" hand space.


How does Tournament want diversity? If anything, cantrips are worse in Tournament games, because they decrease the odds of you holding a Province during your opponent's turn. Also, you forgot Fairgrounds.

Misfire of the brain, I meant fairgrounds instead of tournament.
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jomini

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Re: When is Pearl Diver (or spy) any good?
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2012, 10:16:04 am »
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So, what I'm getting from this is that they're both useful as support for other combos, but that you probably won't find a combo that hinges around Pearl Diver or Spy. Is that correct?
I'd say that apothecary/spy is its own combo. Yes, you can run pure apothecary, but the spy allows you setup things like draw an apothecary and discard an estate. Spy makes apothecary far more green tolerant and is cheap enough to actually buy.
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