Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[AJD]

1) What's up with all the bizarre sentences using the word "anymore"? None of them made sense to me.

So, in most dialects anymore can only be used in negative(-ish) sentences, such as "Prices aren't so high anymore." I those contexts it means that things are different nowadays than they used to be: "Prices aren't so high anymore" means that prices aren't high now, but implies that they used to be high.

In dialects in which anymore can be used in positive sentences, it has the same meaning. So, "Prices are so high anymore" means that prices are high now, but implies that they didn't use to be.

[AJD]

1) What's up with all the bizarre sentences using the word "anymore"? None of them made sense to me.

One of them made sense to me. I'd be curious to see maps of where each of those sentences were considered correct.

Positive anymore is centered in the Midland dialect region (the region that begins in Pennsylvania and extends west through central and southern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and Missouri, widening somewhat as it goes), though I think it's been found to extend somewhat beyond the Midland region proper.

You can see maps of the original results for all of the survey questions at http://dialect.redlog.net.

[AJD]

Guess I am quite strongly NYC-accented.  I wonder how much of the "similar" shading in FL and CA come from the dialects being similar, as opposed to any personal predilection for those areas.

South Florida has a lot of NYC dialect influence. Not so sure about California.

[AJD]

But that anecdotal evidence does suggest differences between northern lower Michigan (north of about Flint) and southern lower Michigan.

Yeah, the further north you go in Michigan the Northern Cities Shift does tend to fade out. I believe it's been found to have spread even to rural mid-Michigan communities, but not in as complete a form as it exists in the cities.

I guess the problem main I had with what you said is that "Northern Ohio" is vaguely defined here; from a linguistic standpoint, you're talking no further than 50 miles from Lake Erie, which is only about 20% of Ohio.  Someone who doesn't live here, in particular, might think of northern Ohio as including Lima or even Columbus!

Oh, right you are. In dialectological terms what counts as "northern Ohio" is quite small—it basically corresponds to the old Connecticut Western Reserve, so it's no more than about two or three counties south of Lake Erie.

But yes... the farther west you go in the US (in general), the farther you can go and still see the same dialect.  NYC, Providence, and Boston are all quite distinct; Toledo, Flint, Chicago, and Columbus are distinct but still more similar than those three eastern cities

(Columbus isn't!)

Also, I'll admit, even though I probably have the Northern Cities Shift, I can't hear it in my own voice.

That's a well-known feature of the Northern Cities Shift!

[eHalcyon]

1) What's up with all the bizarre sentences using the word "anymore"? None of them made sense to me.

So, in most dialects anymore can only be used in negative(-ish) sentences, such as "Prices aren't so high anymore." I those contexts it means that things are different nowadays than they used to be: "Prices aren't so high anymore" means that prices aren't high now, but implies that they used to be high.

In dialects in which anymore can be used in positive sentences, it has the same meaning. So, "Prices are so high anymore" means that prices are high now, but implies that they didn't use to be.

This blows my mind.  I had no idea that anymore could be used this way in certain dialects.  Dang.

[ashersky]

1) What's up with all the bizarre sentences using the word "anymore"? None of them made sense to me.

So, in most dialects anymore can only be used in negative(-ish) sentences, such as "Prices aren't so high anymore." I those contexts it means that things are different nowadays than they used to be: "Prices aren't so high anymore" means that prices aren't high now, but implies that they used to be high.

In dialects in which anymore can be used in positive sentences, it has the same meaning. So, "Prices are so high anymore" means that prices are high now, but implies that they didn't use to be.

This blows my mind.  I had no idea that anymore could be used this way in certain dialects.  Dang.

Sounds like Ohio to me.

[AJD]

In dialects in which anymore can be used in positive sentences, it has the same meaning. So, "Prices are so high anymore" means that prices are high now, but implies that they didn't use to be.

This blows my mind.  I had no idea that anymore could be used this way in certain dialects.  Dang.

Sounds like Ohio to me.

Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky, Kansas, Colorado, and some other places! (According to the Atlas of North American English.)

[Polk5440]

In dialects in which anymore can be used in positive sentences, it has the same meaning. So, "Prices are so high anymore" means that prices are high now, but implies that they didn't use to be.

This blows my mind.  I had no idea that anymore could be used this way in certain dialects.  Dang.

Sounds like Ohio to me.

Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky, Kansas, Colorado, and some other places! (According to the Atlas of North American English.)

This is kind of baffling to me. I am from Ohio and I hear "nowadays" almost exclusively in this context.

I am kind of surprised you single out Columbus. Having lived in Columbus, I can't really distinguish between it and Toledo. Or Columbus versus Cleveland or Indianapolis even. Columbus versus Cincinnati I can distinguish.

I guess I just don't have a very distinguishing dialect detector. I am surprised regional dialects can be parsed so finely!

[Voltaire]

I am kind of surprised you single out Columbus. Having lived in Columbus, I can't really distinguish between it and Toledo. Or Columbus versus Cleveland or Indianapolis even. Columbus versus Cincinnati I can distinguish.

I guess I just don't have a very distinguishing dialect detector. I am surprised regional dialects can be parsed so finely!

I went to college in Cleveland and couldn't hear the Cleveland accent for a year. Then, when I did, it sounded overwhelming.

[mail-mi]

1000th view.

[Kirian]

Polk, where in OH did you grow up?

The main thing with the Columbus accent is to listen for the tiny bit of drawl that creeps in... remember that Columbus is basically right on the Mason-Dixon Line; I think a lot of people don't realize how far north that line really is!

At the same time, Columbus has become so cosmopolitan that if you meet someone there, it's a coin toss whether they actually grew up in the area.  So inside the city that accent is diluted.  You're just not going to hear it at, say, Origins, even from (theoretical) locals.

[Polk5440]

Polk, where in OH did you grow up?

Cleveland and Massillon-Canton areas until I was 7, then Columbus area. College in Cleveland (Case).

The main thing with the Columbus accent is to listen for the tiny bit of drawl that creeps in... remember that Columbus is basically right on the Mason-Dixon Line; I think a lot of people don't realize how far north that line really is!

Oh, that makes sense. I guess I associate that with "the country"/"Appalachia" and cities like Lancaster, Zanesville, and Athens -- but geographically the closest major city is Columbus, so yeah.... that does makes sense that would leak into the Columbus area. Maybe I'm not so tin-eared.

At the same time, Columbus has become so cosmopolitan that if you meet someone there, it's a coin toss whether they actually grew up in the area.  So inside the city that accent is diluted.  You're just not going to hear it at, say, Origins, even from (theoretical) locals.

I didn't learn Origins existed until last year. How could miss out on something so great that was practically in my back yard? 

[AJD]

In dialects in which anymore can be used in positive sentences, it has the same meaning. So, "Prices are so high anymore" means that prices are high now, but implies that they didn't use to be.

This blows my mind.  I had no idea that anymore could be used this way in certain dialects.  Dang.

Sounds like Ohio to me.

Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky, Kansas, Colorado, and some other places! (According to the Atlas of North American English.)

This is kind of baffling to me. I am from Ohio and I hear "nowadays" almost exclusively in this context.

An interesting fact about positive anymore is that often even people who use it don't recognize it when their attention is called directly to it:

Yet introspective responses to questions about anymore are very erratic indeed. In 1973–4, we identified 12 speakers who used positive anymore freely though responses to questions [directly asking whether they used it] were entirely negative. Jack Greenberg, a 58-year-old builder raised in West Philadelphia, gave introspective reactions that were so convincing that I felt that I had to accept them as valid descriptions of his grammar. Yet two weeks later, he was overheard to say to a plumber, "Do you know what's a lousy show anymore? Johnny Carson." A 42-year-old Irish woman said, "I've never heard the expression." Earlier in the interview she had said, "Anymore, I hate to go in town anymore," and a short time later, "Well, anymore, I don't think there is any proper way 'cause there's so many dialects."

—Labov (1996): "When Intuitions Fail"

I am kind of surprised you single out Columbus. Having lived in Columbus, I can't really distinguish between it and Toledo. Or Columbus versus Cleveland or Indianapolis even.

I'n not singling out Columbus per se. But one of the oldest and most resilient dialect boundaries in American English separates Columbus and Cincinnati (and Indianapolis) on one side from Cleveland and Toledo (and Detroit and Chicago) on the other.

Columbus versus Cincinnati I can distinguish.

That's interesting, because Columbus and Cincinnati are both part of the same Midland dialect region! But the Midland has been historically described as having more internal city-to-city dialect diversity than the North has (though those differences have been reported to be fading in favor of a more uniform Midland dialect).

[Polk5440]

In dialects in which anymore can be used in positive sentences, it has the same meaning. So, "Prices are so high anymore" means that prices are high now, but implies that they didn't use to be.

This blows my mind.  I had no idea that anymore could be used this way in certain dialects.  Dang.

Sounds like Ohio to me.

Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky, Kansas, Colorado, and some other places! (According to the Atlas of North American English.)

This is kind of baffling to me. I am from Ohio and I hear "nowadays" almost exclusively in this context.

An interesting fact about positive anymore is that often even people who use it don't recognize it when their attention is called directly to it:

Yet introspective responses to questions about anymore are very erratic indeed. In 1973–4, we identified 12 speakers who used positive anymore freely though responses to questions [directly asking whether they used it] were entirely negative. Jack Greenberg, a 58-year-old builder raised in West Philadelphia, gave introspective reactions that were so convincing that I felt that I had to accept them as valid descriptions of his grammar. Yet two weeks later, he was overheard to say to a plumber, "Do you know what's a lousy show anymore? Johnny Carson." A 42-year-old Irish woman said, "I've never heard the expression." Earlier in the interview she had said, "Anymore, I hate to go in town anymore," and a short time later, "Well, anymore, I don't think there is any proper way 'cause there's so many dialects."

—Labov (1996): "When Intuitions Fail"

Oh. man. This is probably true of a lot of dialect features. Now that you mention it, the instances I remember it being used are almost always in a school context where a teacher was pointing out that it is incorrect usage/slang.

It wouldn't have to be pointed out if it wasn't used....

I am kind of surprised you single out Columbus. Having lived in Columbus, I can't really distinguish between it and Toledo. Or Columbus versus Cleveland or Indianapolis even.

I'n not singling out Columbus per se. But one of the oldest and most resilient dialect boundaries in American English separates Columbus and Cincinnati (and Indianapolis) on one side from Cleveland and Toledo (and Detroit and Chicago) on the other.

Columbus versus Cincinnati I can distinguish.

That's interesting, because Columbus and Cincinnati are both part of the same Midland dialect region! But the Midland has been historically described as having more internal city-to-city dialect diversity than the North has (though those differences have been reported to be fading in favor of a more uniform Midland dialect).

I bet my perceptions suffer from biased sampling, too. The people who influence what I think of as "Columbus" or "Cincinnati" may not be representative. I would trust the researchers to do a better job than me figuring out what is representative.

Just thought of something -- I wonder if using "are you a Browns fan or a Bengals fan?" would separate out dialects in the Columbus area? I bet it would. People who affiliate with northern Ohio answer Browns, southern/west Ohio would answer Bengals, and true Columbus natives would answer "THE Ohio State Buckeyes!"

[AJD]

Just thought of something -- I wonder if using "are you a Browns fan or a Bengals fan?" would separate out dialects in the Columbus area? I bet it would. People who affiliate with northern Ohio answer Browns, southern/west Ohio would answer Bengals, and true Columbus natives would answer "THE Ohio State Buckeyes!"

You'd think so. But the maps at Commoncensus.org show Browns and Indians fans dominate well south of the North/Midland dialect boundary.

I've got this conjecture that more recently arising dialect variants, especially word-specific ones, are more likely to follow regional boundaries that are also salient geographical-region boundaries than are long-standing, systematic dialect differences. (For instance, the soda/pop line in New York State seems to match the commonly recognized boundary between Central New York and Western New York, while the Northern Cities Shift doesn't.) Know of any variables in Ohio that this hypothesis could be tested on?

[Kirian]

One of the things I find interesting about my map is how little blue is on it.  Everyone else's maps have actual dark blue in some or most areas, where I have dark blue only around Duluth, and a few patches of cyan here and there.

I wonder if it's because of affectations; I consciously use "y'all" even though it's not part of my native accent, because I feel that the lack of a distinct second-person plural pronoun is a major problem in English.  I also consciously say "soda" rather than "pop" because... well, because "pop" just sounds, I guess, childish--certainly I grew up saying "pop."

Both of those things have very, very strong regional boundaries, and I wonder if that contributes to all the red on my map.

Looking at soda/pop maps online, this totally explains how St. Louis is listed as my best match!  They're southern enough to say "y'all," and they have a penchant for saying "soda" despite being sandwiched between pop and coke.  Crazy.

[Voltaire]

I wonder if it's because of affectations; I consciously use "y'all" even though it's not part of my native accent, because I feel that the lack of a distinct second-person plural pronoun is a major problem in English.  I also consciously say "soda" rather than "pop" because... well, because "pop" just sounds, I guess, childish--certainly I grew up saying "pop."

One of my good friends is a linguist and, as a result, also has many "conscious" choices in his speech. His background (Ohio, Boston, Germany) resulted in his best fit being Ohio and...Denver.

[Dsell]

1) What's up with all the bizarre sentences using the word "anymore"? None of them made sense to me.

So, in most dialects anymore can only be used in negative(-ish) sentences, such as "Prices aren't so high anymore." I those contexts it means that things are different nowadays than they used to be: "Prices aren't so high anymore" means that prices aren't high now, but implies that they used to be high.

In dialects in which anymore can be used in positive sentences, it has the same meaning. So, "Prices are so high anymore" means that prices are high now, but implies that they didn't use to be.

This blows my mind.  I had no idea that anymore could be used this way in certain dialects.  Dang.

3 out of 4 of those sentences sounded totally fine to me. I am not sure why, since I've always lived on the west coast and none of my family is from the areas where that use is common. But while I don't think I actually use 'anymore' in that context myself (I'm not aware of it anyway) I know that I've heard it used that way, and pretty often.

[ashersky]

Just thought of something -- I wonder if using "are you a Browns fan or a Bengals fan?" would separate out dialects in the Columbus area? I bet it would. People who affiliate with northern Ohio answer Browns, southern/west Ohio would answer Bengals, and true Columbus natives would answer "THE Ohio State Buckeyes!"

You'd think so. But the maps at Commoncensus.org show Browns and Indians fans dominate well south of the North/Midland dialect boundary.

I've got this conjecture that more recently arising dialect variants, especially word-specific ones, are more likely to follow regional boundaries that are also salient geographical-region boundaries than are long-standing, systematic dialect differences. (For instance, the soda/pop line in New York State seems to match the commonly recognized boundary between Central New York and Western New York, while the Northern Cities Shift doesn't.) Know of any variables in Ohio that this hypothesis could be tested on?

Also, the Browns were significantly better than the Bengals for awhile, and the Browns left for awhile, and etc.  As a long-suffering Bengals fan, I don't blame Colombusese for picking the Browns.

Reds/Indians might work better.  But there you've got history to deal with; the Reds are much older.  And awesome.

[ehunt]

This was fun. I am from the south, in fact from the part of nc that is red, but i dont think i have an accent (people usually are surprised im from the south). There were even several questions where i was positive i was using the yankee answer (e.g. i know ,my grandmother called everything a coke but i call it a soft drink)

[BoxOfDOG]

Pretty accurate, by my guess.. Considering I live in Portland, OR.

Most Similar Cities   

• Portland, OR            54.9
• Salem, OR               54.9
• Vancouver, WA        54.8
• Gresham, OR            54.7
• Eugene, OR             54.5

Least Similar Cities   

• New Orleans, LA      45.2
• Metairie, LA            45.3
• Baton Rouge, LA      45.7
• Jackson, MS            45.9
• Providence, RI         46.0