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[NoMoreFun]

So it turns out, Guilds was a Big Box expansion

Here are the missing cards:

Cheesemaker
Action/Reaction - $2

+1 card
Discard any number of cards. Gain a card with a cost exactly equal to the number of cards you discarded this way
---
When another player plays an Attack, you may reveal and discard this from your hand. If you do, take 2 coin tokens



Village Idiot
Action - $2+

+3 Actions
---
When you buy this you may overpay. For each $1 you overpay, +1 buy.



Dancer
Action - $3

+1 card
Take a coin token
You may pay any number of Coin tokens. For each coin token you paid, +1 Action.



Builder
Action - $3+

Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card that shares a type costing up to $4 more.
---
When you buy this, you may overpay. For each $1 you overpay, look through your discard pile and trash a card costing $0.



Milliner
Action/Attack - $4

+$1
Each player takes a coin token
Pay any number of coin tokens. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand either pays more, or reveals his hand and puts a card you choose on top of his deck.



Investor
Action - $4+

Discard any number of cards from your hand. Take a coin token for each card you discarded this way
---
When you buy this, you may overpay. For each $1 you overpaid, set aside that number of cards from the top of your deck. Put them in your hand at the start of your next turn.



Guild Hall
Victory - $4+

Worth 1VP for every 4 coin tokens you have(rounded down)
---
When you buy this, you may overpay. Take a coin token for each $1 you overpaid



Ironic Tiller
Action - $5+

+$3
+1 buy
Each other player looks at the top card of his deck. He may reveal it. If he does, you gain a copy of it.
---
When you buy this, you may overpay. For each $1 you overpay, cards cost $1 less.



Blacksmith
Action - $5

Take 3 coin tokens
Pay any number of coin tokens. Gain a card equal in cost to the number of coin tokens you paid.



Executioner
Action - $5

Choose an action card costing less than this. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a copy of it, then discard the other revealed cards. Play it twice, then trash it.



Painter
Action - $5
Name a card. Each other player reveals their hand. If any player has an Action or Treasure that matches, gain a copy; otherwise gain a Silver. Put any cards gained this way into your hand.



Paymaster
Action/Reaction - $6

+5 cards
Each other player takes a coin token
---
When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Duchy.

[KingZog3]

Some of these cards seem interesting, but some seem useless. I don't think I would ever build an Engine with Dancer as my Village. Village Idiot is also not great, since I have to have at least $20 before I can buy double Province. Otherwise I'm just buying a Village Idiot+whatever else I wanted to buy.

Guild Hall looks really interesting though. You'll want to overpay every time you buy it, unless there are other Coin token cards. But if Baker is in play, there is no reason to end the game. Just keep playing Bakers and buy all the Guild Halls. Then everyone just keeps playing Bakers to get more points, never actually buying anything. Might be a problem.

[Warfreak2]

When you buy this, you may overpay. Take a coin token for each $1 you overpaid

This isn't "missing" from Guilds; according to the secret history, it was considered and rejected.

Ironic Tiller is impossibly good; of course you would never play it, but you just rush Market Squares and then buy it for $13. Getting eight Highways/Bridges played is really a lot harder than producing $13.

Milliner is also way too powerful, there's a reason Pillage costs $5 and is a one-shot.

[scott_pilgrim]

The reaction on Paymaster seems ridiculous.  With cantrip +buy, you can just pick up five or six duchies at the end of the game.

Otherwise, I think the main issues have been pointed out by other people.  Investor might be too strong, but I'm still not sure how valuable coin tokens are.  You might want to change Blacksmith to force you to pay and gain (so if you pay $0 you have to gain Copper); I think 3 coin tokens for $5 is too much.

Most of these cards look interesting.

[eHalcyon]

Cheesemaker -- too powerful, I imagine.  Although you do have to give up the rest of your turn, a regular hand with this will gain $5 cards.  This is a step Secret Chamber and Vault in power.  Those are discard for coin, which can be used with Silver or better Treasure for added value.  OTOH, this is a gainer so it can act as a pseudo-buy.  Overall it's a wash, I think.  But the extra card gives it a pretty big edge over SC.  The reaction is also quite strong.  It could work on a $2 (I mean, Moat just stops attacks completely) but since the top is also strong, I would probably cost this at $4.  Compare to HT -- decent reaction, guarantees $5 (HT doesn't fully guarantee, but it's very close to it).

Village Idiot -- Probably OK.  Good for engines that has good draw and just desperately needs actions.  The overpay helps with that -- you don't have to wait for a $2 hand or use up a big hand; you can just wait for a hand with $2 extra.

Dancer -- Probably works at $2.

Builder -- The top seems too strong to me for $3, but I'm not certain.  It is bigger than Expand and I don't think the type restriction is enough to justify a $4 drop in price.  But maybe it is.  The overpay is too similar to Doctor's.  It's generally more powerful as well.

Milliner -- I don't know.  The simplest version of this does not give others coin tokens, does not have you pay tokens, and only asks opponents to pay 1 token.  You can do that with Milliner, but you can also pay more.  Alternatively, opponents who decline to pay can save the coin tokens you give them to block it later.  Worth testing!

Investor -- Hard to evaluate since we are still figuring out the value of a coin token.  However, I think this is too good.  It's like a super Tactician.

Guild Hall -- As Warfreak pointed out, the overpay was tried by Donald X and it didn't work out.  I also don't think VP per coin token works well as a mechanic.  When you spend the coin tokens, you feel bad that you are devaluing your Guild Halls.  OTOH, if you don't spend the tokens, you feel bad when they would otherwise help you.  Seems like a lose-lose to me.

Ironic Tiller -- top is interesting.  $5 terminal Gold with bonus +Buy, but you let opponents flood you with junk.  Gets worse with more players.  Overpay seems neat too, but difficult to take advantage of.  Worth testing.

Blacksmith -- Gain coin tokens, trade in coin tokens to gain a card.  I think it looks too similar to Butcher.  Even if it didn't, straight up getting 3 coin tokens just seems way too strong.  Maybe it would be OK if you made it mandatory -- "Pay any number of coin tokens", no "you may" on it.  Then if you save your 3 tokens, you have to take a Copper.  You can pay 1 token and gain nothing (if PH isn't around) but then that's just like Butcher when you don't trash, so it would be OK at $5.

Executioner -- Didn't Donald X mention this exact effect as an outtake?

Painter -- Seems way too powerful, especially with more than 2 players.  Super-Jester.  If you have two of these in hand, you can use the first one with reasonable power and then the second one is super crazy targeted powerful.  If your opponent has a Painter in hand, you can drain the Painter pile before continuing.  In a 4p game, this is guaranteed non-terminal +$6 just by naming Estate!  Way too strong.  Way, way too strong.

Paymaster -- Reaction is a bit scary powerful... might be OK.  Not sure.  The top is probably reasonable.

[Warfreak2]

I also don't think VP per coin token works well as a mechanic.

Oh damn, I didn't bother reading the rest of the card, I saw the overpay mechanic and that was enough for it to be broken, but...

Worth 1VP for every 4 coin tokens you have(rounded down)

This was discussed extensively in the Guilds subforum, and it's super broken. You buy four of these, and trash down to a deck of just Bakers, which are now even more broken than cantrip Monuments; it becomes actively negative to your score to spend any money on cards that don't directly help you play more Bakers per turn.

[Asper]

Chapeau, i like a lot of these. You forgot the secret Guilds Promo card, though:

Printing Press, Action, 5$
Take a coin token.
While this is in play, when you spend a coin token: +1$

[NoMoreFun]

I wrote this expansion before I read the secret histories, by the way, but I guess there's no way to prove that.

[NoMoreFun]

Also the overpay for Builder is to make up for the fact that the card itself can't trash curses.

[NoMoreFun]

I put the action on Painter so it could gain actions and play them, but it's clearly a bit too strong like that. I just wanted the gain to never be too bad, so I made it an explorer variant.

[NoMoreFun]

Painter -- Seems way too powerful, especially with more than 2 players.  Super-Jester.  If you have two of these in hand, you can use the first one with reasonable power and then the second one is super crazy targeted powerful.  If your opponent has a Painter in hand, you can drain the Painter pile before continuing.  In a 4p game, this is guaranteed non-terminal +$6 just by naming Estate!  Way too strong.  Way, way too strong.

You only gain one card with every play of painter. It's basically an explorer.

Builder -- The top seems too strong to me for $3, but I'm not certain.  It is bigger than Expand and I don't think the type restriction is enough to justify a $4 drop in price.  But maybe it is.  The overpay is too similar to Doctor's.  It's generally more powerful as well.

Keep in mind that it can't trash curses, it's worse than Taxman and Mine for treasures (except rare things like IGG->platinum), much, much worse than Rebuild for Victory cards (except for Alt VP->Province), and it doesn't really incentivise trashing actions unless there's something like Stonemason->Grand Market on the board. Thinking about the cards that exist, it could even be a $5 increase and be fine at $4, even with things like Great Hall->Province existing. Then I made it $3 because you'd probably be silly to open with 2 of these.

I discussed it at length in the "overhaul" thread. An interesting aspect is that making it topdeck the gained card might be more interesting. It's best feature is the pseudo-rebuild, which is nerfed, while the other features become more respectable options. It's probably still a $4 though.

[Gveoniz]

Blacksmith -- Gain coin tokens, trade in coin tokens to gain a card.  I think it looks too similar to Butcher.  Even if it didn't, straight up getting 3 coin tokens just seems way too strong.  Maybe it would be OK if you made it mandatory -- "Pay any number of coin tokens", no "you may" on it.  Then if you save your 3 tokens, you have to take a Copper.  You can pay 1 token and gain nothing (if PH isn't around) but then that's just like Butcher when you don't trash, so it would be OK at $5.

I think you have to gain a card even if the pay token part says "you may" and you choose not to pay. The part with "gain a card" don't says "if you do". If the number of coin you pay is zero you still need to gain a copper.

[NoMoreFun]

Blacksmith -- Gain coin tokens, trade in coin tokens to gain a card.  I think it looks too similar to Butcher.  Even if it didn't, straight up getting 3 coin tokens just seems way too strong.  Maybe it would be OK if you made it mandatory -- "Pay any number of coin tokens", no "you may" on it.  Then if you save your 3 tokens, you have to take a Copper.  You can pay 1 token and gain nothing (if PH isn't around) but then that's just like Butcher when you don't trash, so it would be OK at $5.

I think you have to gain a card even if the pay token part says "you may" and you choose not to pay. The part with "gain a card" don't says "if you do". If the number of coin you pay is zero you still need to gain a copper.

That's the intention. I fixed the wording.

[NoMoreFun]

Is "discard your hand, gain a $5" really that strong? I had to put the +1 card on cheesemaker or else it would look like a joke compared to Secret Chamber and Workshop. Remember you can't just boost your turn; you'll gain a copper if you just play it without discarding anything.

[KingZog3]

Is "discard your hand, gain a $5" really that strong? I had to put the +1 card on cheesemaker or else it would look like a joke compared to Secret Chamber and Workshop. Remember you can't just boost your turn; you'll gain a copper if you just play it without discarding anything.

It may not be. I mean, Soothsayer gains Golds. But I still imagine it's better than $2. I would probably open double Cheesemaker to try and get 2 $5's before my second shuffle, and most likely at least 1. It's almost better than Feast, perhaps in a way like Hunting Grounds is better than Lab. There are times I'd take feats, but mostly I'd take this. The reaction part is pretty good against attack cards. Great against junkers, since you can make those crappy junked up turn into good ones, especially when you don't want to discard your hand. Definitely $3 or $4.

[eHalcyon]

On Builder -- yeah, that's basically why I'm not sure.  A $4 increase might not be much better than the $3 you get with Expand.  But the overpay is probably too good.  Better than Doctor's, IMO.



On Cheesemaker -- yes, I think just gaining $5s directly is too strong for a $2 card.  I mean, maybe it isn't -- I'm not an expert.  But it sounds too powerful to me.  It gives no extra benefit if you don't discard anything, so you wouldn't ever play it and discard nothing unless you really wanted a Copper (Golem and Herald notwithstanding).  Maybe at $3?  Compared to Workshop, you can gain much better cards but you have to sacrifice most of the rest of your turn, whereas you can probably still buy a Silver after playing Workshop.

[KingZog3]

On Builder -- yeah, that's basically why I'm not sure.  A $4 increase might not be much better than the $3 you get with Expand.  But the overpay is probably too good.  Better than Doctor's, IMO.

Except once you run out of copper it's basically useless unless there's a curser on the board. And even then, if you can junk fast enough, it'll be hard to overpay by a lot.

[eHalcyon]

On Builder -- yeah, that's basically why I'm not sure.  A $4 increase might not be much better than the $3 you get with Expand.  But the overpay is probably too good.  Better than Doctor's, IMO.

Except once you run out of copper it's basically useless unless there's a curser on the board. And even then, if you can junk fast enough, it'll be hard to overpay by a lot.

And Chapel is basically useless after you clear your starting cards. It's still strong.

[KingZog3]

On Builder -- yeah, that's basically why I'm not sure.  A $4 increase might not be much better than the $3 you get with Expand.  But the overpay is probably too good.  Better than Doctor's, IMO.

Except once you run out of copper it's basically useless unless there's a curser on the board. And even then, if you can junk fast enough, it'll be hard to overpay by a lot.

And Chapel is basically useless after you clear your starting cards. It's still strong.

True, but I would argue the overpay is weaker, because 1) it's only a one time use, although you can buy it a gain 2) You need a lot of money to trash a lot without multiple buys on multiple turns. 3) You need to hit that high money with all the coppers in your deck.

I think the bottom is ok, if it were paired with a weaker top. That way it's more a card you get for the overpay, trashing coppers but adding a weak card to your deck. But the top of Builder is still pretty good that I'll buy it just for that anyway.

[NoMoreFun]

I think I'll change the cost of Village Idiot to 1 and Dancer to 2.

I made this expansion quite quickly.

[KingZog3]

I think I'll change the cost of Village Idiot to 1 and Dancer to 2.

I made this expansion quite quickly.

That probably works for Village Idiot.

I still wouldn't use Dancer for my Village in an engine. I need to play it twice before I get a village. And it's terminal before that. I'd probably buy it for the coin token only. 2 coin tokens for 2 actions is really pricey. Really you can't build any kind of engine from it. I feel it'll almost never get used, at least not for it's "Village" part.

[NoMoreFun]

I think I'll change the cost of Village Idiot to 1 and Dancer to 2.

I made this expansion quite quickly.

That probably works for Village Idiot.

I still wouldn't use Dancer for my Village in an engine. I need to play it twice before I get a village. And it's terminal before that. I'd probably buy it for the coin token only. 2 coin tokens for 2 actions is really pricey. Really you can't build any kind of engine from it. I feel it'll almost never get used, at least not for it's "Village" part.

It's not a good "village" for engines, but it's flexible. You draw the card before you pay tokens, so you only spend the coin token if you have an action that needs playing. It's basically a cantrip with a bonus, and should be played as such.

Alternatively I could make the exchange rate 1 coin token=2 actions, and make it a $4 card.

[KingZog3]

I think I'll change the cost of Village Idiot to 1 and Dancer to 2.

I made this expansion quite quickly.

That probably works for Village Idiot.

I still wouldn't use Dancer for my Village in an engine. I need to play it twice before I get a village. And it's terminal before that. I'd probably buy it for the coin token only. 2 coin tokens for 2 actions is really pricey. Really you can't build any kind of engine from it. I feel it'll almost never get used, at least not for it's "Village" part.

It's not a good "village" for engines, but it's flexible. You draw the card before you pay tokens, so you only spend the coin token if you have an action that needs playing. It's basically a cantrip with a bonus, and should be played as such.

Alternatively I could make the exchange rate 1 coin token=2 actions, and make it a $4 card.

Except there is no bonus if you make it a cantrip. I suppose it's ok, but it's essentially not good in an engine (more useless than bad really), so it's a BM card, but it'll be outclassed in almost every single set-up if the dominant strategy is BM .I think the 1 coin for 2 actions would work better on a card.