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Author Topic: Multiplayer Dronings  (Read 11914 times)

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tlloyd

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2012, 05:29:26 pm »
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As far as I can tell, you either (1) have failed to see how in 3P a play could be against your interests in a particular game but promote your interests for the series, or (2) don't have any problem with that kind of play and don't see how it is qualitatively different than 2P, or (3) have a mild form of schizophrenia. ;D
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2012, 05:37:18 pm »
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As far as I can tell, you either (1) have failed to see how in 3P a play could be against your interests in a particular game but promote your interests for the series, or (2) don't have any problem with that kind of play and don't see how it is qualitatively different than 2P, or (3) have a mild form of schizophrenia. ;D
And as far as I can tell you're either stupid or not reading my posts. I'm guessing the latter, which makes this kind of pointless. For the 9 billionth time, yes this happens, yes, it's qualitatively different than 2 player. I'm not saying I personally don't have a problem with it; I'm saying it's not an objective, intrinsic flaw. I fail to see what point you're making.

ftl

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2012, 05:40:26 pm »
+1

ftl, yes, this is an issue, it's part of the game (i.e. that someone who is not you can do something to stop you from winning while not making himself win), you don't like it, we've agree about this... many times. What's your point?

The point is that it's a bad part of the game, which is not present in 2p, which makes it less suitable for competitive play.
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Galzria

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2012, 05:47:54 pm »
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As far as I can tell, you either (1) have failed to see how in 3P a play could be against your interests in a particular game but promote your interests for the series, or (2) don't have any problem with that kind of play and don't see how it is qualitatively different than 2P, or (3) have a mild form of schizophrenia. ;D

WW has addressed most of these issues, specifically, look at his response to my first post in this thread where I expressed both sides of the issues, and where each may have validity.

It's a different game 2p vs 3p. The only (or biggest) point he is making, that most people seem to ignore, is that BOTH are valid ways to play competitively. Choose the style that suits you, and leave well enough alone. Both formats have their flaws. So?
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

WanderingWinder

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2012, 05:48:08 pm »
+1

ftl, yes, this is an issue, it's part of the game (i.e. that someone who is not you can do something to stop you from winning while not making himself win), you don't like it, we've agree about this... many times. What's your point?

The point is that it's a bad part of the game, which is not present in 2p, which makes it less suitable for competitive play.
You think it's bad. I don't like it terribly either, but there are people who don't mind it. Also, I don't understand what the competitive play aspect has to do with it. I think that it's actually better in competitive play than casual play, because you have more incentive to win in competitive play, and you're also keeping better track and playing better, so the random third person doesn't come up as much - he's still going for the win.
My great big overall point is that just because you don't like it or I don't like it doesn't mean we should slam it for everyone.

tlloyd

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2012, 05:49:53 pm »
+1

ftl, yes, this is an issue, it's part of the game (i.e. that someone who is not you can do something to stop you from winning while not making himself win), you don't like it, we've agree about this... many times. What's your point?

The point is that it's a bad part of the game, which is not present in 2p, which makes it less suitable for competitive play.

HALLELUJAH!!!!
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tlloyd

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2012, 05:57:01 pm »
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ftl, yes, this is an issue, it's part of the game (i.e. that someone who is not you can do something to stop you from winning while not making himself win), you don't like it, we've agree about this... many times. What's your point?

The point is that it's a bad part of the game, which is not present in 2p, which makes it less suitable for competitive play.
You think it's bad. I don't like it terribly either, but there are people who don't mind it. Also, I don't understand what the competitive play aspect has to do with it. I think that it's actually better in competitive play than casual play, because you have more incentive to win in competitive play, and you're also keeping better track and playing better, so the random third person doesn't come up as much - he's still going for the win.
My great big overall point is that just because you don't like it or I don't like it doesn't mean we should slam it for everyone.

Forgive me for saying it, but your response here makes me wonder whether we still are not understanding each other. The type of play we're describing here would ONLY happen in competetive play! If we're just playing a game, I do my best to win and then we play again. If I'm worried about advancing in a tournament, I might worry about such things as which of my 2+ opponents is the biggest threat and seek for ways to trip them up - not just in a particular game, but across the series.
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Galzria

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2012, 05:59:47 pm »
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Quote
Forgive me for saying it, but your response here makes me wonder whether we still are not understanding each other. The type of play we're describing here would ONLY happen in competetive play! If we're just playing a game, I do my best to win and then we play again. If I'm worried about advancing in a tournament, I might worry about such things as which of my 2+ opponents is the biggest threat and seek for ways to trip them up - not just in a particular game, but across the series.


That's part of the game in competitive play though! So what? Your point is that competition and strategy happens in competitive play? Maybe it's not an aspect you like. But it is 100% legitimate!
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 06:02:25 pm by Galzria »
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

WanderingWinder

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2012, 06:06:35 pm »
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ftl, yes, this is an issue, it's part of the game (i.e. that someone who is not you can do something to stop you from winning while not making himself win), you don't like it, we've agree about this... many times. What's your point?

The point is that it's a bad part of the game, which is not present in 2p, which makes it less suitable for competitive play.
You think it's bad. I don't like it terribly either, but there are people who don't mind it. Also, I don't understand what the competitive play aspect has to do with it. I think that it's actually better in competitive play than casual play, because you have more incentive to win in competitive play, and you're also keeping better track and playing better, so the random third person doesn't come up as much - he's still going for the win.
My great big overall point is that just because you don't like it or I don't like it doesn't mean we should slam it for everyone.

Forgive me for saying it, but your response here makes me wonder whether we still are not understanding each other. The type of play we're describing here would ONLY happen in competetive play! If we're just playing a game, I do my best to win and then we play again. If I'm worried about advancing in a tournament, I might worry about such things as which of my 2+ opponents is the biggest threat and seek for ways to trip them up - not just in a particular game, but across the series.
No, I think we get each other. There's two different issues here, and what I'm talking about there isn't the one you're talking about. There's some reasons you might not play to win in a casual game, because you're playing just for fun. I mean, in a casual game, Sally has won 5 in a row, I'm more apt to try to make her not win the next one, even at my own expense, just because I want a change in the winner's circle. Jimmy helps Cindy because she's his girlfriend. I take the last province even though I had a 1.3% chance of winning, just because I want to get it over with and move on to the next one. In each of these cases, the competitive environment is going to make me want to play to win more, which means not so much to bump off Sally's win streak, not to help a significant other (well, probably you don't have them playing in the same game), and not just wanting to end it, because there's still SOME chance - my time is comparatively less valuable here.
Of course, the competitive play does add in the possible meta-gaming issues if you give any kind of credit for non-wins, and you don't have that in a one-off game, but only in some format where multiple games are being tracked.

tlloyd

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2012, 06:10:16 pm »
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Quote
Forgive me for saying it, but your response here makes me wonder whether we still are not understanding each other. The type of play we're describing here would ONLY happen in competetive play! If we're just playing a game, I do my best to win and then we play again. If I'm worried about advancing in a tournament, I might worry about such things as which of my 2+ opponents is the biggest threat and seek for ways to trip them up - not just in a particular game, but across the series.


That's part of the game in competitive play though! So what? Your point is that competition and strategy happens in competitive play? Maybe it's not an aspect you like. But it is 100% legitimate!

Please tell me you've read both of these threads in their entirety before chiming in. Let's not go round again unnecessarily. Competetive play is doing your best (within the rules) to win each game. Taking a loss in one game in order to increase your odds of winning the tournament is (1) anti-competitive, and (2) a potential aspect of 3P games, not 2P games.
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Galzria

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2012, 06:18:56 pm »
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Quote
Forgive me for saying it, but your response here makes me wonder whether we still are not understanding each other. The type of play we're describing here would ONLY happen in competetive play! If we're just playing a game, I do my best to win and then we play again. If I'm worried about advancing in a tournament, I might worry about such things as which of my 2+ opponents is the biggest threat and seek for ways to trip them up - not just in a particular game, but across the series.


That's part of the game in competitive play though! So what? Your point is that competition and strategy happens in competitive play? Maybe it's not an aspect you like. But it is 100% legitimate!

Please tell me you've read both of these threads in their entirety before chiming in. Let's not go round again unnecessarily. Competetive play is doing your best (within the rules) to win each game. Taking a loss in one game in order to increase your odds of winning the tournament is (1) anti-competitive, and (2) a potential aspect of 3P games, not 2P games.

I'm playing to win the tournament, not any one game. I will use any strategy that benefits
me most in reaching this goal.

Not a single person has claimed this same form of gaming (ie controlling your tournament chances by playing differently) exists in 2p. For someone who has "read all of both threads", can you point me to where it has  been? Because I've already directed you to where it's been agreed that 2p and 3p are different.

Furthermore, the only argument is that if you don't like that format, who's forcing you to play that way? 2 :)p AND 3p can both exist competitively.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 06:27:23 pm by Galzria »
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

ftl

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2012, 06:20:17 pm »
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No, I think we get each other. There's two different issues here, and what I'm talking about there isn't the one you're talking about. There's some reasons you might not play to win in a casual game, because you're playing just for fun. I mean, in a casual game, Sally has won 5 in a row, I'm more apt to try to make her not win the next one, even at my own expense, just because I want a change in the winner's circle. Jimmy helps Cindy because she's his girlfriend. I take the last province even though I had a 1.3% chance of winning, just because I want to get it over with and move on to the next one. In each of these cases, the competitive environment is going to make me want to play to win more, which means not so much to bump off Sally's win streak, not to help a significant other (well, probably you don't have them playing in the same game), and not just wanting to end it, because there's still SOME chance - my time is comparatively less valuable here.

Or, on the other hand - the competitive environment affects how you play, but it or may not affect how other people play. People will still go after Sally,  Jimmy will still help Cindy, someone will still take the last province and end the game with a loss.

In casual play, it's not a problem, it doesn't matter. People played cards, there's a eventually a winner, everyone had fun.

Whereas in competitive play, it matters, because suddenly the winner MATTERS, the winner mattering is what makes it competitive in the first place. Maybe there's money on the line, maybe just a fancy title or pride, or whatever. And in that case, Jimmy helping Cindy at his own expense is anticompetitive and a problem, if Cindy ends up winning the tournament or taking the pot or whatever, with Jimmy's help, at the expense of all the other people who may have been better Dominion players than Cindy but didn't have a helpful boyfriend passing them Colonies at critical moments (or helping in more subtle ways).

Quote
Of course, the competitive play does add in the possible meta-gaming issues if you give any kind of credit for non-wins, and you don't have that in a one-off game, but only in some format where multiple games are being tracked.

People can always get credit for non-wins, no matter how you set up the rules to prevent it, because you can set up a friend with a win and then share the winner's prize after-the-fact, whatever that prize is. The only way around that is to make nobody get any sort of credit for wins OR losses - i.e. just have casual play.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 06:23:26 pm by ftl »
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tlloyd

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Re: Multiplayer Dronings
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2012, 06:39:34 pm »
+1

Quote
Forgive me for saying it, but your response here makes me wonder whether we still are not understanding each other. The type of play we're describing here would ONLY happen in competetive play! If we're just playing a game, I do my best to win and then we play again. If I'm worried about advancing in a tournament, I might worry about such things as which of my 2+ opponents is the biggest threat and seek for ways to trip them up - not just in a particular game, but across the series.


That's part of the game in competitive play though! So what? Your point is that competition and strategy happens in competitive play? Maybe it's not an aspect you like. But it is 100% legitimate!

Please tell me you've read both of these threads in their entirety before chiming in. Let's not go round again unnecessarily. Competetive play is doing your best (within the rules) to win each game. Taking a loss in one game in order to increase your odds of winning the tournament is (1) anti-competitive, and (2) a potential aspect of 3P games, not 2P games.

I'm playing to win the tournament, not any one game. I will use any strategy that benefits
me most in reaching this goal.

I don't doubt you would. The point is that certain tournament setups can incentivize behavior that runs counter to the incentives involved in a game of dominion. In that sense the winner is the one who plays the tournament best, not the one who plays the game best -- which is what an ideal tournament would promote.

The rest of your post honestly isn't worth responding to.
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