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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 28, 2019, 07:01:28 pm »
I'm not like I have been in other games. I am trying to learn from earlier games and be more helpful.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 28, 2019, 02:06:28 pm »Anz lynch we make will be informative because there will be 10 people who voted for that person. That's plenty of interaction. It is however completely backwards to want to lynch active players. Active players have interacted with lots of people, and this makes them easier to read once some of those people have flipped. On lurkers we won't have any more info D3 than we do now.Yeah, I feel you, but it does increase utility of his lynch over e's.He's got a healthy set of interactions, making it an actually informative lynch.Boo.
Seriously, cross-reference the list of people who said I was crazy for advocating no-lynch because of all the information I'd be giving up against the list of people who are currently advocating lynch of 2.71, or are voting for chickenwarlord because of inactivity.
That group of people is either scummy, or seriously not thinking through their no-lynch position.
Lynching active players also incentivizes lurking.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 28, 2019, 02:01:26 pm »
I can get up early to be here at deadline I guess.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 28, 2019, 01:05:33 pm »Reads are extremely subjective, especially on day one. There's value in sharing them, but pushing them seems like a recipe for mislynch. But I guess you've played a lot more than I have.
What do you suggest town does near the end of D1 then? Keep interacting? How would we (attempt to, shraeye) lynch anyone if we don't trust our reads? No: we need to push our gut, ultimately it's what mafia's all about.
If five people independently find e scummy, there's probably something to that. Some specific thing he has said that one of those people can point to to try and convince the rest of us. I haven't seen anyone offer such a thing. I on the other hand, have provided a specific Jimmmm post that seems scummy to me and why it seems scummy to me. If everyone does that, if everyone justifies their votes better than with a "gut feeling", and then everyone else can look at that justification and decide if they agree with it, that's how we advance on day one.
@Glooble, I have a feeling I asked this already, but how would you describe your meta?
I would describe my meta as "evolving". It changes from game to game as I learn new things. I try very hard not to react emotionally or take votes as attacks, but I'm an emotional person so sometimes I do. I'm anxious. I freak out when there's a wagon on me, regardless of alignment.
This game- what you see is what you get. I ask questions. I clarify when I don't understand something. I point out when a post feels towny or scummy to me. But I point out the specific post and why. I discuss the setup if there is something that I think will be helpful for town to know, won't be harmful for scum to know, and doesn't feel obvious to me. I'm always up for strategizing. Mostly I just want people to talk because at the end of the day one of us is probably going to get lynched, and I'd like to get something out of that lynch.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 28, 2019, 12:47:05 pm »
Reads are extremely subjective, especially on day one. There's value in sharing them, but pushing them seems like a recipe for mislynch. But I guess you've played a lot more than I have.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 28, 2019, 12:41:59 pm »I would be very open to lynching Glooble based of the recent interactions. Seems a bit like scum trying to put more emphasis than there really is on things (the shraeye read)
I keep thinking that as well.
vote: Glooble
I'm also down with that; for somebody who is against the e lynch because it's all based on "seems" and "feels", why is he giving me towncred based on how he feels??
He's got a healthy set of interactions, making it an actually informative lynch.
His analysis of the ash Ferengi misunderstanding still doesn't sit well with me.
And he's up there on my list of saying many things, but not really pushing many things.
Pushing things on day one is scummy though. Because there's so little to go on. Eventually we do have to reach a consensus, which is why I was looking at the wagons we already have people on and trying to see what the least bad option was. I settled on Jimmm, I laid out my reasoning. I realized the hypocrisy of my reasoning re: e and shraeye, so I decided to reread shraeye. Didn't find much that screamed town- didn't find anything that screamed scum either. I did stumble on that Awaclus post while I was doing the reread because we have two people voting for Awaclus right now and I wanted to point that out in case it changed their minds.
I agree with you my lynch would be somewhat informative, because I've been contributing. But that also makes me more valuable to have around on later days. In other ways my lynch wouldn't be very informative because while I've been making a lot of posts, there haven't been a lot of votes on me, or even a huge amount of interaction with my posts- in fact I've felt pretty invisible until just now, despite my attempts to contribute.
I absolutely and totally disagree with the bolded/underlined portion of this quote.
Scum does not want to push things because they don't want to commit to anything. Town should never be afraid to be bold about their reads and push them.
And I absolutely disagree with you. Town shouldn't be afraid to push a lynch that they have some evidence for. "He's just rubbing me the wrong way, let's lynch him" is not towny behavior.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 28, 2019, 12:36:28 pm »I would be very open to lynching Glooble based of the recent interactions. Seems a bit like scum trying to put more emphasis than there really is on things (the shraeye read)
I keep thinking that as well.
vote: Glooble
I'm also down with that; for somebody who is against the e lynch because it's all based on "seems" and "feels", why is he giving me towncred based on how he feels??
He's got a healthy set of interactions, making it an actually informative lynch.
His analysis of the ash Ferengi misunderstanding still doesn't sit well with me.
And he's up there on my list of saying many things, but not really pushing many things.
Pushing things on day one is scummy though. Because there's so little to go on. Eventually we do have to reach a consensus, which is why I was looking at the wagons we already have people on and trying to see what the least bad option was. I settled on Jimmm, I laid out my reasoning. I realized the hypocrisy of my reasoning re: e and shraeye, so I decided to reread shraeye. Didn't find much that screamed town- didn't find anything that screamed scum either. I did stumble on that Awaclus post while I was doing the reread because we have two people voting for Awaclus right now and I wanted to point that out in case it changed their minds.
I agree with you my lynch would be somewhat informative, because I've been contributing. But that also makes me more valuable to have around on later days. In other ways my lynch wouldn't be very informative because while I've been making a lot of posts, there haven't been a lot of votes on me, or even a huge amount of interaction with my posts- in fact I've felt pretty invisible until just now, despite my attempts to contribute.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 28, 2019, 12:05:38 pm »I would be very open to lynching Glooble based of the recent interactions. Seems a bit like scum trying to put more emphasis than there really is on things (the shraeye read)
I don't understand what you're saying here.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (PMs sent. Night 0)
« on: February 28, 2019, 11:59:59 am »I do like Dukat claiming, now I don't have to argue about it though.
Also we obviously can't control when people claim, but faust, shraeye and others (and Joth in the Ancillary game) are really pushing this thing where it's all up to the town. Obvious it is up to the individual players but it is very much worth discussing. I was serious when I said I thought it had hurt town in Ancillary Mafia, the only thing I was lying about there was being upset about it.
This game is open so for the new players, scum have no value in fake claiming here, since every single one of us has a unique name from a known list. Towns lately seem to love randomly claiming their roles at L-4 or whatever and it's hugely anti-town. Even if your role is not a likely NK target, you narrow the pool of targets for the roles scum are looking for and it hurts everyone else.
Mafia is a team game, and decisions each player makes effect their whole team.
I don't know where this argument is coming from, but multiple players across multiple games are saying things with similar language so it's getting to be kind of a meme and I really think it's bad play that we should clamp down on.
In RMM51, it definitely helped scum a ton that a lot of information was available and that a lot of it was true. We were able to make very informed decisions most nights.
This quote actually makes me not want to lynch Awaclus today. What he says here is undoubtably true, and I think if he'd rolled scum again its more likely he would have tried to get town to make the same mistakes than point those mistakes out of towncred. But WiFoM as awlays.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 28, 2019, 11:55:23 am »
I guess I should reread shraeye and figure out where this townread is coming from, since I admit its kind of a gut thing at this point.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 28, 2019, 11:51:06 am »I can only speak for myself- I don't know anything about a movement. Shraeye's explanation of his position re: no lynching, while I still disagree with it, felt very towny to me.I am very sure that shraeye holds the belief that town should be more open to no lynching independent of the game and his alignment. I don't understand how you could think this says anything about his alignment.
I'll be clearer.
The only thing scummy I saw about shraeye was his pro-no lynch position. Having not played with shraeye before, I didn't know that was just a thing for him. Once he made his case, the position no longer seemed scummy to me. It still seemed wrong, but it took away the scummiest part of shraeye for me and I was left with a townread.
Is this townread reliable? Certainly not. It's as flimsy as any day one read. But its enough to make me not want to lynch him.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 28, 2019, 11:28:11 am »Can somebody help me understand the "not shraeye" movement? I don't know that he's done anything tremendously townie so it seems like a weird line to draw in the sand.
I can only speak for myself- I don't know anything about a movement. Shraeye's explanation of his position re: no lynching, while I still disagree with it, felt very towny to me. There are lots of people in this game I have null reads on, so I don't want to lynch one of my few townreads.
Of the people with more than one vote on them, my lynch order would be:
Jimmmmm
e/ Awaclus
shraeye
Awaclus and e are both pretty null to me, and there's pros and cons to each. We get much more useful info from an e lynch, since e has been more active today. But town!e is more useful later in the game. Though I've never played a game with town!Awaclus so maybe there is some merit to his attack-dog style that I'm just not aware of.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 28, 2019, 10:53:28 am »
Sorry I meant to say "MiX vs. WCD", not MiX vs. Shraeye.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 28, 2019, 10:52:38 am »I still like my E vote, I would also happily sheep Faust’s Jimm vote
Why is it faust's Jimmmmm vote? I've been voting for Jimmmm since page 13.
Can someone on this e wagon please point out where its coming from? And don't use the words "seems" or "feels".
I know that I’m not on the wagon (yet) but it seems to me that e feels scummy.
Would you say that you have a case without those words on someone else?
I would articulate my case on Jimmmm, at the time that I voted for him, as being because he was mostly lurking, then popped up to state some townreads (genuinely not that helpful in such a big game, especially as they were on players who weren't under much threat) and say shraeye felt scummy, which just seemed like a low-effort post in order to not be the lurker lynch and maybe to nudge town slightly towards the shraeye lynch, but not in a way that tied Jimmmm to anything if shraeye was lynched and came up down. It was a hedgy post and I thought it was low-key scummy.
Since then he's done nothing to dissuade me from that belief, and no one else has done anything particularly scummy as far as I've noticed. MiX vs. shraeye seems much more like town v town to me than a scumslip for either of them. The post Jimmmm made that faust found scummy didn't seem particularly scummy to me, but I can see how it might seem scummy to someone who knows Jimmmm's meta better than I do.
So I guess my question is for faust: do you feel that you know Jimmm's meta particularly well and that town!Jimmm specifically would not have made this post:
When I saw the 2 votes thing I assumed there was a claim I hadn't seen.
And I guess along those sems lines my question for e voters is what is it about e's play in this game that doesn't feel like the town!e you've played with before? It would be helpful if you could give a specific example.
I'm not opposed to an e lynch today. I'd like to see a real case though.
I do not support a shraeye lynch today.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 28, 2019, 09:29:08 am »I still like my E vote, I would also happily sheep Faust’s Jimm vote
Why is it faust's Jimmmmm vote? I've been voting for Jimmmm since page 13.
Can someone on this e wagon please point out where its coming from? And don't use the words "seems" or "feels".
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 26, 2019, 06:31:33 pm »I don't always come off as scummy.
So far I’m not actually reading you as scummy this game. Hence why I’m voting for Jimmmmm right now.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 26, 2019, 06:24:22 pm »Like if a player’s general style makes them hard to read, that player is a liability as town and especially dangerous as scum. Sounds like a great day 1 lynch to me.
As one of these players, I don't really understand why hard-to-read players are a liability as town. They would be if their reads are bad or if they're anti town, but being hard to read is not an anti-town ability, as Awaclus would surely tell you. Oh, unless he thinks he's easy to get townread as town, in which case he's incredibly wrong.
If a player always comes off as scummy it makes them more likely to get mislynched when they’re town, it throws off other players reads and, as Awaclus demonstrated in RMM51, it makes it easy for them to hide behind their meta when they actually are scum.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 26, 2019, 05:34:39 pm »
Like if a player’s general style makes them hard to read, that player is a liability as town and especially dangerous as scum. Sounds like a great day 1 lynch to me.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 26, 2019, 05:33:08 pm »Stop misrepresenting my quotes.
What else do you feel I've misrepresented?
Just that one, really.
MiX is hard to follow as town and presumably hard to follow as scum. I think he thinks differently than a lot of us.
Right now I think he'll be one of the players that's much easier to sort once we have some flips.
I'd say I don't want to lynch him Day 1 unless he basically scumclaims, but then we get into the don't lynch newbies Day 1, don't lynch good players Day 1, don't lynch hard-to-sort (Awaclus, MiX, Jimmm, Robz) Day 1 and pretty soon we can't lynch anyone.
Why wouldn’t we lynch players who are hard to sort? Granted I’ve played one game with Awaclus, but in that one game 1. He was scum, 2. I kept saying he was scum, 3. People kept saying “nah, that’s just Awaclus being Awaclus har har.”
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 26, 2019, 04:48:52 pm »
What’s not random about a day one lynch? People form reads on the flimsiest evidence and cling to them. I don’t trust my own day one reads and I can’t trust anyone else’s because I have no evidence anyone else is town. It might not be completely random, but it’s pretty close.
STOP BEING COMMITTED TO MAKING DAY 1 USELESS.
Stop misrepresenting my quotes.
I never said day one was useless. I said day one lynches are essentially random. That's not the same thing at all. The reasoning people give, the reads they express on each other, when votes get thrown around and for who - all of this is extremely useful, and gets more useful as the game goes on and its given context by concrete information.
On day one, we don't have that context. All we have are reads. And competent scum players can fool those a lot more easily than they can fool other scumhunting techniques that don't become viable until later in the game.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 26, 2019, 12:05:48 pm »Glooble's explanation is consistent with what I would expect of "ash is wrong: even if this was true, he forgot about one thing. Oh, but that's not true, right. But even if it was, there's another thing that's wrong, so, yeah".
@Glooble, do you like setup talk and/or do you think you're good at it? Do you think you need to work harder D1 because of last game?
PPE 2: Ok now I'm actually confused...let's stop talking about hypotheticals that aren't true.
Setup talk can be helpful. I've never understood why people think its scummy.
By last game do you mean Deep Space Nine Mafia 1 five years ago or Imperial Radch Mafia? Because I don't think I did anything wrong in Imperial Radch mafia, except maybe not hammering UoS after his bogus doctor claim.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 26, 2019, 12:00:15 pm »
*know, not no.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 26, 2019, 11:59:38 am »
Oh wait I’m dumb. I see what you’re saying now.
I don’t know what I was thinking. Ignore the above.
No, a theoretical scum Ferengi doesn’t actually no any more than a non-scum Ferengi until someone flips the opposite alignment.
I don’t know what I was thinking. Ignore the above.
No, a theoretical scum Ferengi doesn’t actually no any more than a non-scum Ferengi until someone flips the opposite alignment.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 26, 2019, 11:53:04 am »I'm happy to walk you through my though process. For the first post- the Ferengi only know what alignment one of the Ferengi are.
That's meant to say "none" not "one"
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux (Day 1)
« on: February 26, 2019, 11:52:19 am »
I'm happy to walk you through my though process. For the first post- the Ferengi only know what alignment one of the Ferengi are. That could be the alignment not in the game, if that's the only one that fits the bill. But all a town Ferengi would know is one alignment that no one in the QT has. I saw that Ash had realized this, but I also wanted to point out that if Ash's original assumption was true, i.e. that the Ferengi knew which alignment wasn't in the gaqme, it would still be bad for them to say because that knowledge helps scum more than it helps town.
After I made that post, it occurred to me that if at least one Ferengi was scum, they would already know which alignment wasn't in the game, since they have an additional piece of information- their own alignment. Which would be an argument in favor of sharing that information with town. But its all moot since a town Ferengi wouldn't have that info in the first place.
After I made that post, it occurred to me that if at least one Ferengi was scum, they would already know which alignment wasn't in the game, since they have an additional piece of information- their own alignment. Which would be an argument in favor of sharing that information with town. But its all moot since a town Ferengi wouldn't have that info in the first place.