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Messages - Reyk

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26
Dominion Articles / Re: Alchemy: Apothecary
« on: January 10, 2012, 05:17:36 am »
Thx for the writeup, Jake.

<b>Apothecary Openers</b>

Though not always true, in many cases it is not overly beneficial to buy silver while building an Apothecary-based deck.  There are terminal and non-terminal actions that can be much better.  Apothecary pairs very well with <a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110908-055830-6175c2d2.html>Ambassador</a> and should probably be considered the dominant strategy in most Kingdoms.  Other good $3 openers are <a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111221-122915-ce74de25.html>Shanty Town</a>, <a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111211-230604-9cee4f16.html>Lookout</a>, Scheme, and <a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110811-132335-48a62e27.html>Steward</a>.  Opening Potion/Copper is suspect at best.

While Woodcutter/Potion is not elite it is often quite good. As Woodcutter is usually considered bad, I'd mentioned it.

27
Game Reports / Re: Ambassador beaten by... a bunch of junk
« on: December 08, 2011, 08:05:16 am »
Congrats WW.
I agree that Double Amb wasn't a good idea. Even more so as you already gave some hint starting with Horse Traders.
I still think it would have been difficult against single Amb. Another idea for ObiWan might have been a Curse buy at turn 5 instead of the Lighthouse. But with Lighthouse on the board and without a consistent engine to draw Amb/Curse together it's probably too slow anyway.

28
Dominion Articles / Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« on: December 08, 2011, 07:48:32 am »
How does the Secret Chamber-Tactician combo work?

Not really well actually. It does work with some Lab support, but it's still very slow to set up and not really reliable once you have a bunch of green cards in your deck.

Tactician-Vault, however, is rather strong.

I had some interesting interactions going on here:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111206-095535-3ea1673b.html

Yes, Tactician/Secret Chamber is slow, but there where not that many alternatives. The Pirate Ship (while probably a bad buy against Spice Merchant/Secret Chamber) is threat to BM (maybe you can still try BM, as it's not easy to stack the ships, but there isn't much action support for BM). Another Threat to BM might be an opponent only bying Faigrounds, but that's difficult too here without Action Providers and so many dead cards.

Originally I had the idea to bring Fairgrounds to 15 cards and than work with 6$ (7) from double Tactician. That's why I misplayed turn 10 discarding the Haven to Secret Chamber. But alternately buying Fairgrounds (with 10 cards)/Province (which I changed plans into only then) doesn't seem so bad either on this board. So you play Haven one turn, set aside Spice Merchant if possible and buy Faigrounds/Copper (for the Merchant). Then Province the other turn. The Merchant to some degree and the Scheme mitigate the greening effect.

I made further mistakes due to some miscounting buying the Curse in turn 19 when it was not likely at all that I could go to 15 cards.

29
Now that it's switched back to a time-based uncertainty growth, the last change I'd like to see made is basing level on skill alone rather than skill - 3*SD. I don't really understand the appeal of the latter system from any perspective.

Can anyone expalin this a bit more? Is it changend now in comparison to the old leaderboard (that we had in action till 24th of november?).

30
Dominion Articles / Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« on: December 07, 2011, 09:29:43 am »
Caravan + Library.

When Possession is on the board, don't buy Ambassador or Governor.

The Ambassador thing is too simplicistic as discussed already in other threads. As an interesting example I will give this game:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111007-113232-dbf0d6d8.html

WW with creative play almost got out the bad 2/5 start (an example too for interesting _non_ identical starting hands). Ambassador and a little luck nevertheless were key to success.

31
Rules Questions / Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« on: December 06, 2011, 10:42:18 am »
The only difference between treasure and actions is that you play them during your buy phase instead of during your action phase

The trick here was that he didn't play the Coppers in the buy phase, but in the action phase instead - scnr ;-)
But you are right in general and the explanation is helpful.

32
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« on: December 05, 2011, 11:01:08 am »
On the other hand, if you're in the end game and want to scrape as much points as possible, you should buy 3 Duchies first and then alternate between buying Dukes and Duchies.

Technically, you should probably buy 4 Duchies first, then alternate.
It doesn't really matter points-wise.

Going for 3 Duchies first gets you 3-6-9-12-16 points.
Going for 4 Duchies first gets you 3-6-9-12-16 points.

Although I could understand the importance of denying your opponents them in which case getting 4 is better than getting 3.

Have I missed something?  If you have 4 duchies, and then buy Dukes, wouldn't it go 4-8-12 etc?

It's like this:
3-6-9-12(Duchy)-16(Duke)
3-6-9-12(Duke)-15(Duchy) +1 for your Duke = 16

But really: All the math on alternating is not relevant in Praxis. It's almost always "Duchies first".

33
GokoDom / Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« on: December 05, 2011, 04:16:15 am »
Thx for commenting, WW.

Califax and I just finished the final. 4 - 3 to me in a very close match.

Game 1 (Missing Log) GM, Vault, Trading post, IGG, Moneylender, Festival, warehouse, cellar, ??, ??

Califax  IGG / Cellar  vs Rabid Moneylender / warehouse (Silver?)     

5/2 vs 4/3 on this board seems really bad, my plan was moneylender < vault < GM + warehouses to cycle the curses. I drowned in curses, not sure if I should have been competing for IGG or maybe tried Trading Post?
It's hard for me to think that can compete with the IGG rush. Problem is, once you warehouse, Vault-> GM requires you to get a silver. Okay, not impossible, but it's going to be a bit tough to get that engine going with the curses flying in. I would have definitely ran for the IGGs, probably with some warehouse support. Probably opened Warehouse/silver and gotten crushed against 5/2 open anyway.


I aggree and as I wrote, 5-2 is hard to overcome here. Log for game 1:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111204-091432-a660d2b1.html

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111204-092553-71e7b9a1.html

This screams IGG to me! Can't see what was in the BM other than what you guys pulled, but I don't see a reason to grab one... 'cept that there's no real reason not to either

Yes, I saw no reason not to buy it as long it is at least equal to Silver. The only reason not to buy it is that Black Market might set up traps ;-) But I think Trade Route is great and Mountebank could break the IGG/Curse rhythm. But it was played too late for this.


Game 4
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111204-094713-bf09d5bf.html

That is a huge spell of luck. I'd like to see the sims, 'cause I've got some other ideas here too.


Which ones?


Game 5
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111204-100856-1d4eaca5.html

You know, I've never really liked remodel/chapel, though I know it's very strong. Just never really gotten the feel for it. HT/Chapel on the other hand, I don't understand at all. A thin chapel deck does not seem like where I'd want to use the Horse Traders effect. But hey, I guess it wasn't that bad?

HT was the only plus buy (you will use it on spare Estates early and on Provinces late), but Remodel is kind of plus buy too and probably is better here.

Game 7
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111204-103606-aa41feb8.html

Don't like the forge for Califax here.

For now I'm totally unhappy with my forge buy in the last game - this could and should have been a Province instead as your double Margrave cycles my deck and their are still chances.

Yes, as I wrote :-( I knew immedeately, this was a terrible idea. But I already was unsettled and thought, that things go wrong resp. too well for the Peddlers.

34
GokoDom / Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« on: December 04, 2011, 02:42:56 pm »
Game 4
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-094713-bf09d5bf.html

Rabid Steward / Caravan   vs   Califax  S / S into 2 Margraves.

Might be worth simulating this one.
I got the lucky T4 of Stewed + 2E and Califax didn't draw $5 until T5.
Bit of card counting on T7 let me steward for +2 cards and buy gold, rather than use the +2$, speeding up deck cycling slightly.

Yes simulation would be interesting. Starting Silver/Silver and playing the first Silver turn 5 indeed slowed me down a bit.

Game 5
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-100856-1d4eaca5.html

Rabid Remodel / Chapel   vs   Califax  Horse Traders / Chapel

The only win for player 2 in the match.
Really strange game with us both avoiding Torturer + farming village.
I have no idea what the correct play on this board is, I got the lucky remodel gold > Prov + buy prov on T14 for a 4 -2 lead as 2nd player. I believe from chat Califax was $1 short of remodel gold prov, buy prov, buy estate for the win. we then duchy danced for a bit until I drew my gold + remodel again.

This one I have to study closer ;-) And I don't have an idea how to play it either ...
Probably some misplay somewhere. At turn 15 after your double Province I was 1$ short for Province(via Remodel), Province, Estate win. But the double Province definitely put pressure on me as an equal score wouldn't have helped.

Game 6
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-102136-128dcd0b.html

Califax  Trader / Silver into Dukes --  vs Rabid Potion / Silver into fail.

I had some crazy idea of Ghost Ships slowing the Duke rush down.
I was wrong.

Ghost Ship is annoying although Haven/Trader help a bit. The real problem imho is Alchemists without +buy.
For game 7 see above.

Thx again for the match and thx to Mean Mr. Mustard for not only confusing theory ;-) but organizing a fun tournament!




35
GokoDom / Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« on: December 04, 2011, 02:11:16 pm »
Game 2
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-092553-71e7b9a1.html

Rabid Silver / Black Market   vs   Califax  Silver / Black Market
From then on the plan was haven & governor to enable bank.
IGG + duke might be worth analysing further.

I guess that IGG + Duke is hard to make work because of premature 3pile ending. I didn't plan the quick end well here.

36
GokoDom / Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« on: December 04, 2011, 02:08:05 pm »

Califax  IGG --  vs Rabid Moneylender / Silver     

My plan, 4/3 vs 5/2 on this board seems really bad, my plan was vault into GM + warehouses to cycle the curses. I drowned in curses, not sure if I should have been competing for IGG or maybe tried Trading Post?

I didn't save it either. Starting player + 5-2 was probably huge although the choice wasn't easy.

I will go into detail for the other games later. For now I'm totally unhappy with my forge buy in the last game - this could and should have been a Province instead as your double Margrave cycles my deck and their are still chances. I've tried things like Farming Village turn 1 myself and it didn't turn out well for me. Later there was 6$ + 3$ next turn - so decided to give up on Peddlers.

37
GokoDom / Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« on: December 04, 2011, 01:54:10 pm »
Congrats to Rabid for winning the tournament after a 4:3 final victory!
I'm sure comments on the games will follow. I have to wait for CR.

38
2011 / Re: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Championships Rules
« on: December 02, 2011, 04:58:52 am »
Btw I think Best-of-four is ideal. To play for more wins would take too much time. Best-of-three on the other hand puts you under pressure much more after an unlucky start.
With four = seven and three = five?

Yes, thx. I somehow mixed it up.

39
I wouldn't mind having my oldest games ignored in my rank (just because they wouldn't represent my skill level anymore...

But the point is that they represented your old skill level, which is part of your record.  Games should never get lopped off nor someone's rating "restarted."  Gary Kasparov's FIDE rating includes games from when he was in high school, I'm certain.  That's part of what makes this quite maddening; the whole point of a system like this is that, yes, it takes your old games into account.  It's supposed to.

I very much support this. It wouldn't help at all to make a 60 day frame instead of 30 days or a 500 game frame. The Paralyzed issue remains then, but again: sort him out manually.

40
2011 / Re: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Championships Rules
« on: December 01, 2011, 07:24:21 pm »
1. The rules do not specify that the winner must win a best-of-seven

No and they don't have to. Rules for running a tournament could be an appendix or something like that, not more. You have the rules for the game itself on the other hand. This is this and that is that. Best-of-fourseven doesn't effect the rules for the game. Identical starting hand option does effect them.
Btw I think Best-of-fourseven is ideal. To play for more wins would take too much time. Best-of-threefive on the other hand puts you under pressure much more after an unlucky start.

2. Imagine that the rules DID specify that each player were to get identical starting hands. Would you argue, for the purposes of running a tournament and determining a champion, that it would be better or worse to determine starting hands randomly?

Hm, some kind of rhetorical question? ;-)

41
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Leaderboard change
« on: December 01, 2011, 11:32:01 am »
I sort of like the change, because I no longer feel obligated to "only" play when i have time to play 7+ games.

It ist true that you could lose a level under the old system by playing one game per day and winning it.
But now it's much much worse. You simply can't use automatch +/- rank as theory already stated.

42
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Leaderboard change
« on: December 01, 2011, 10:32:52 am »
@DStu: Would you mind to explain your post to Joe Public? ;-)

43
GokoDom / Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« on: November 30, 2011, 02:51:22 pm »
Yes, Geronimoo, olneyce - you are right. He simply buys all the Provinces. I just tried it (by no means perfect play - but enough evidence):

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/30/game-20111130-114728-782e200d.html

Impressive!

44
GokoDom / Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« on: November 30, 2011, 01:55:31 pm »
@Reyk: the Jack game was played...how should I put this mildly... horribly by both players  :o

Jack is happiest when you buy money and let him do his thing finishing the game in 15 turns.

You are probably right here too. Jack isn't my friend and I haven't played Hinterland so much.
But I was still concerned about that 15 turn number in front of two alternative victory card sources. How much does Jack stall if one player basically doesn't buy Provinces and constantly hits the Jack deck with ships?

These were my concerns - probably not justified as 10 cards seems to be the maximum for Fairgrounds here. In a pure Jack deck Silver is definitely better than Haven, but this wasn't the intention from the very beginning. But then again you are right that Jack doesn't fit into the intended deck.

45
GokoDom / Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« on: November 30, 2011, 12:19:18 pm »
You are probably right - I could feel the pain not being able to buy that Duchy. On the other hand the Duchy will not equalize a 5-3 Garden split even if they go to 29 only. Plus Scheme might be the reason for reaching 30 cards ...

Hm, interesting. I guess some simulator knows more and you've already checked it ;-)

46
GokoDom / Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« on: November 30, 2011, 10:36:20 am »
My comments on the games (part II)

4) califax - shark_bait 20-17
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-120056-5ec27a0a.html

I pretty much have trouble playing Garden/Ironworks mirrors. When to start buying Gardens? Can you afford to take some Silver and how much? Anyway there always seems to be quite a bit of luck involved because at some point you have to use Ironworks for Gardens and than you can draw either money for another $4 or an Ironworks dead.

The game offered nethertheless some decisions. At 3$ Scheme, Silver, Lighthouse are competing. We pretty much mirrored these. Scheme seems to be high priority early. Silver/Lighthouse than seem to be a close call (there is still Bureaucrat around).

The interesting question is whether to take Bureaucrat or not. Shark_bait took it - I don't like it so much here, because you can't use Ironworks on point cards with Bureaucrat in hand. On the other side it might give you the coin advantage for a decisive Duchy ...

Shark_bait started taking Gardens as soon as turn 4. The gardens were split evenly - I won the estate race 8-6. At turn 11 however shark_bait used his Ironworks on Silver to buy a Duchy. With the drawback that he couldn't use his Bureaucrat this turn. The game was very near the 3pile ending. If you can't afford a Duchy yourself you will inevitably lose by 1 point - unless there is a difference in garden points ...

You know the end already. Shark_bait finished the game at turn 12 (I would have done it otherwise) with 29 cards. It might not be totally illogial given my starting player advantage and the 7-3 Ironworks split. But still very unlucky for Shark_bait who would have ended the match with a crushing 4-0 if he only had one more card.

5) shark_bait - califax 37-38
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-122451-d44add22.html

An interesting board (Edit: I don't consider it interesting anymore - just Jack + BM is the way to go). Jack and Stables are screaming for some sort of BM, but there are alternative point cards and Pirate Ship too.
We both started Haven/Jack (I doubled Jack) and  decided to give the ships a try later, because the Nobles/Fairgrounds have potential to prolong the game, plus Jack gives some target and the ship helps to get 10 different cards. I'm still not sure on this as you might want the actions for Nobles. My ships were a bit unlucky, but shark_bait on the other hand missklicked at turn 7 with 9$ and an Estate in hand. He bought Fairgrounds thinking it was Farmland.

There was some Penultimate Province Rule dancing later. When shark_bait broke the rule the game ended on my turn by just 1 point. Lucky again.

6) shark_bait - califax 6-30
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-123551-34230ee5.html

Masquerade, Quarry, Grand Market.
Shark_bait spent 5$ at turn 3 (and again at turn 5) for an Upgrade - I for the second Quarry. I really believe the latter is better here. Maybe his plan was to upgrade Upgrades into Grand Markets, but it didn't work out.
You still have to be lucky to draw the Quarries together, but I managed this at turn 6 and then you have a nice snowball effect.

7) shark_bait - califax 37-45
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-124828-30f6008b.html

A mirror match around Young Witch, Smugglers (Bane) and Vault.

I wasn't happy with 5-2 here (Militia as a potential Vault counter + YW priority), but YW/Haven wasn't so bad. It doesn't help to put aside Smugglers to bane Young Witch, but it does help to play one each turn. Plus shark_bait was unlucky and drew his Witch only at turn 5.
I correctly guessed his Smugglers at turn 3 (with good chances - it still could have been the other way round: Witch at turn 4 and Smugglers at turn 5 for shark_bait) and havened the Witch aside to give the only Curse of the game at turn 4.

Smugglers as bane are funny - they smuggle each other around quite a bit. Soon nobody even tried to play Young Witch.

I noticed an interesting moment at turn 9 when shark_bait took a Gold for $7. Maybe he feared the Bank would underperform, but I still think it will make 3$. With so many Smugglers around I would have taken it instead. As it was I could smuggle the Gold.

Anyway I probably had simply more favorable draws this game.


A match with some mistakes, but some nice dramaturgy too (at least if you win ;-)) Despite being outclassed by shark_bait at the beginning I enjoyed the whole match. Btw: 5 out of 7 games saw second seat winning.


As we're getting closer to the finals, I'm wondering if the players in the finals might be willing to do a write-up of their matches (or maybe the most interesting 2 matches) at the level of depth that the blog had with the annotated games feature. I, for one, would love to hear how the players thought about some of the key turn-by-turn decisions, and this seems an easy way to generate some more front-page content for the blog. Would the players left in the tournament be interested in doing that?

I think the most instructive game is shark_bait's win in game 3. Maybe I didn't understand enough to comment on this more.

In general we had very interesting setups. Games 2, 3, 5 provide very good raw material for the Kingdom Design Challenge. I appreciate more comments on the games.

47
GokoDom / Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« on: November 30, 2011, 07:53:30 am »
My comments on the games (part I)

1) shark_bait - califax 13-7
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-111501-52294134.html

Ironworks/Ambassador brutally outplayed my Ambassador/Ambassador. Courtyard/Throne were the key cards for Ironworks to get. Later backup by 1 Festival/1 Witch wasn't anymore important. Shark_bait got things started turn 10 with Throne/Throne/Cortyard followed by quadruple Amb and I was very much in trouble.

This took me a bit by surprise - I havn't seen this particular combination of cards. It still seems a bit risky, but worked out perfectly.

2) califax - shark_bait 34-44
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-113923-66864fcc.html

A very interesting setup with 7 or 8 cards being interesting: cards in supply: Coppersmith, Ghost Ship, Inn, Menagerie, Saboteur, Shanty Town, Trade Route, Woodcutter, Workshop, and Young Witch ( Courtyard as bane)

I really liked the non identical starting hands here - they made the game very interesting. I had a 5-2 start which looks very good and ... probably misplayed it. There are 3 options I see:
1) Young Witch/Courtyard
2) Inn/see what you get (probably get some Courtyards and maybe pass on Young Witch, because Trade Route can handle some mild cursing)
3) Ghost Ship/Courtyard

I chose 3) because I didn't want to give up a potential 5-2 advantage but this may well be the weakest option. I thougt that Menagerie wasn't that good apart from countering Ghost Ship and getting it somewhat conflicting with getting banes, but my Double Young Witch did a poor job. The Witches were blocked 10 times and all other things (number of banes) being equal my double Witch only managed a 4-4 curse split against shark_bait's one Witch.

Shark's Workshop was nice too, because there are many interesting 3$ cost cards, but whith all these terminals to start with I had no room for this. Playing this again I wouldn't buy Ghost Ship and probably go with Inn as it has good synergies with the bane and the Menagerie.

3) califax - shark_bait 42-52
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-115306-5a16a7d6.html

Very instructive. You know - Duke is such a beautifully designed card. I like it myself quite a bit, but here I was tempted to play Treasure Map/Warehouse. Combine this with Council room/Apprentice and Provinces seem to sell out fast enough. Plus you really don't want to underbuy even more for 12$ ...
I didn't play my second warehouse turn 5 leaving 6 cards with 2 Treasure Maps and it worked. But ...

Shark_bait opened Smugglers/Potion (for University) and later used the university gained Apprentices to great effect. He converted (later bought) Treasure Maps at turn 10, but couldn't resist to buy Province at turn 11 either ;-) (Duchy for 12$ might have been even better in an otherwise very well played game). With his Smugglers/Apprentices he was much better armed for a Duchy race and could easily catch up (my leed was 21-4 at some point). I stalled before getting that last Province.

A well deserved 3-0 lead - I didn't believe in some sort of comeback at this point at all.

48
GokoDom / Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« on: November 29, 2011, 03:57:50 pm »
I've won a thrilling 4:3 match against shark bait.

He totally outplayed me in the beginning - especially in the first and third games to go for a 3-0 lead.
Fourth game was a Ironworks-Garden 4-4 split which I've won due to a 32-29(!) card split. It could have been over with a very clear 4-0 at this point. Game 5 I've won by just 1 point. Game 6 was the only game where I played better I guess.
 
A very lucky comeback - I will post the games via CR tomorrow and comment a bit more.

PS: The final is scheduled for sunday.

49
2011 / Re: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Championships Rules
« on: November 28, 2011, 07:57:31 am »
Done.  Identical starting hands are a default rule -- but this can be changed by the players if desired!

That's a shame. You might get screwed by different starting hands sometimes, but not so often I guess. In a best of 4 skill will still prevail.
I'm very much convinced that some very interesting games with diverse strategies are the result of different starting hands, at least partly. I don't like this rule change, especially considering the kingdom design challenge. I understand why you have to allow point counter (it's simply not controllable), but this seems to be unnecessary.

Anyway I don't have to complain, because I don't even take part in the tournament (I've thought about kingdom design though). I've decided that I'm too busy this time and didn't want to risk a forfeit loss. I really like the tournament ideas - thank you, for organizing. Just wanted to point out the identical starting hand issue for future events. But like point counters this will cause many different opinions I guess ;-)

Good luck to all players!

PS: I understand that you can't design a kingdom speculating on certain starting hands - but the resulting games might become even more interesting if different starting hands appear.

50
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Leaderboard change
« on: November 26, 2011, 04:50:05 am »
The simplest thing to do here would be to only rank games played against random opponents.

The sad thing is that you have to pick your opponent after the new leaderboard was released. Because the auotmatch +/- level option no longer works in a meaningful way.

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