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26

Rules Questions / Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel

« on: March 07, 2022, 10:02:02 am »

Okay I think I understand, but I can't find that last rule anywhere.

The bottom line is: what even is a Duration and what does it all mean?
There are cards with lasting effects or postponed effects which are not Duration cards.
There are Duration cards which no longer do anything and thus are no longer Duration cards?

I'm confused. 

27

Rules Questions / Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel

« on: March 07, 2022, 09:33:12 am »

There is a difference in that you're following a Way instead of the Duration's instructions. But we know that a Duration played with Way of the Chameleon causes the Duration to stay in play (even though we're not following the Duration's instructions). This seems like the same situation.

Well with Chameleon you could argue that it has to stay in play because it was played for one of its own original abilities. That is what the "Duration+way" rule specifies anyway.

No, we're not following any of the Duration's instructions. Chameleon works exactly like all other Ways. That's why we can't use Chameleon on an Enchanted card or vice versa. Playing a card using Way of the Mouse playing a Duration also causes the card to stay in play.

So with regards to Way of the Chameleon you argue that the original card's instructions are 'copied' to the Way so we are no longer following the original card's instructions, but instead the Way's instructions which are exactly the same as the original instructions (with cards and coins reversed)?

If that's true the question remains: if the Duration card is played with Chameleon and it has a Duration effect which is still valid even if it was triggered by the Way instead of the card, does that count as at least one of its plays was for its own abilities?

It seems like the answer for Way of the Chameleon is yes even if the cards and coins are reversed. In the rules it even has an example with Merchant Ship. If you play Merchant Ship with Way of the Chameleon you get +2 cards this turn and +2 coins next turn.

28

Rules Questions / Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel

« on: March 07, 2022, 09:02:24 am »

There is a difference in that you're following a Way instead of the Duration's instructions. But we know that a Duration played with Way of the Chameleon causes the Duration to stay in play (even though we're not following the Duration's instructions). This seems like the same situation.

Well with Chameleon you could argue that it has to stay in play because it was played for one of its own original abilities. That is what the "Duration+way" rule specifies anyway.

29

Rules Questions / Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel

« on: March 07, 2022, 06:38:18 am »

Duration cards don't have a monopoly on stuff which happens later and that you need to remember.
In a game without Duration cards, you could still play Way of the Squirrel (even multiple times per turn) and have to remember to draw those extra cards.

So I don't think a Duration card should stay out just because you played it with a Way which does something later.
Ignoring the 'duration rule' if you choose to play a Duration card as a Way seems like the most straightforward rule to me.

30

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Really not a fan of voyage turns

« on: March 07, 2022, 06:15:34 am »

Yes, most decks like/love cantrips, such as Market/Peddler/Mill etc. but Voyage decks hate them.
Voyage is like an anti-engine card in that you'd rather have a hand that can get Militia'd and still buy a Province such as Gold-Gold-Silver-Estate-Estate than a hand that wants to string actions together.

So when the dust settles, I think it will be used in money-based decks or attack heavy decks where you're desperately trying to win the Curse split or something like that.
Note that non-cumulative attacks like Militia/Goons/Margrave etc. are no use in Voyage turns since the opponent has (likely) already discarded in your previous turn.

31

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Really not a fan of voyage turns

« on: March 07, 2022, 04:48:07 am »

Voyage is very situational, it can be worse than Workshop if you play 3 cantrips and then...nothing, it can be amazing if you play Coven-King's Court-Mountebank or something like that.

32

Rules Questions / Re: Duration and Way of the Squirrel

« on: March 07, 2022, 04:42:20 am »

Based on a conversation in an Outpost + Lich thread: If you play any Duration card and use Way of the Squirrel, will the Duration be discarded this turn or next? While you are discarding your in-play cards during your clean-up phase, the Duration is not yet done doing stuff; it still needs give you +2 cards at the end of the turn. But on the other hand, it doesn't do anything next turn, so this turn is the last turn that it will do anything.

The more general question; is the Duration discard rule looking for whether or not the Duration is done doing stuff, or is it looking for whether or not the Duration will do something on a future turn?

If the card you are playing is a Duration card, it only stays in play if at least one of its plays was for its own abilities. If it does stay in play, you will have to remember for your next turn how many times you actually played the Duration card for its abilities.

Source: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Way

So if you play a Duration card as a Way this turn, it is not played for its Duration effect and can be cleaned up as normal.
If you played it as a Duration card this turn and at the start of your next turn, you play it as a Way, it gets cleaned up that turn as well.

I don't think it matters much if it's the Way of the Squirrel or any other way. It just so happens that with Way of the Squirrel you have to remember to give yourself those 2 cards, there is no indicator for it on the table.

33

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 5: More Cards

« on: March 07, 2022, 04:28:01 am »

Also, don't forget that Royal Galley is letting you pick a specific card to start next turn with. It's not just a free play from your initial 5-card hand. Starting your turn with a free Smithy or two is great! In that respect, it's more similar to a one-time Prince that also works on $5+ cards.

I find that it works great with semi-engines, these are engines that don't really generate huge turns where you always draw your entire deck, but rather a string of medium turns where you play a bunch of cards until you run out of gas.
These types of engines love consistency, they don't aim to hit double Province turns, but rather a single Province each turn for as many turns as possible.

Royal Galley is a great card for those kinds of games.

34

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Seaside 2E Announced

« on: March 06, 2022, 07:11:20 am »

I'm not sad to see Sea Hag go, in general, cards which don't provide any benefit to you, but only hurt your opponents, are not fun.
That's why Saboteur had to go as well.

Island and Native Village can keep existing without mats. Island could be retrofitted to exile cards instead, it wouldn't change the design of the card that much.
Native Island could be printed without a special mat, it could just say "set aside". Now that we have Inheritance and Royal Galley the "set aside area" can be an area which actually exists.

Pirate Ship could be retrofitted to work with favors instead of its own tokens.

35

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Outpost + Lich

« on: March 06, 2022, 04:03:19 am »

I still think Outpost should be able to be discarded in the same Clean-up phase in which it lets you only draw 3 cards.

Making it draw 3 cards is not the reason it's a Duration and needs to stay in play sometimes. The only reason it's a Duration is to remind you on the actual Outpost turn that it's an Outpost turn and it has a minor strategic bonus that you can't draw the dead Outpost card on your Outpost turn.

Outpost does not need to be a Duration card, it could easily be made into a non-Duration card and it would work exactly the same.

But there is a second edition of Seaside coming, maybe Outpost will be changed in it.

36

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Outpost + Lich

« on: March 05, 2022, 02:13:36 pm »

Outpost:

If this is the first time you played an Outpost this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, then take an extra turn after this one, and you only draw 3 cards for your next hand.

The question is: do we stop reading at the part where it says "take an extra turn after this one" and just ignore the and clause which comes after it or not?

It looks like the condition for Outpost to do anything is just "did you take a turn before this?"
If you played a Lich and Outpost, the previous turn wasn't yours, so we keep reading.
Then we get to the interesting part:
then take an extra turn after this one, and you only draw 3 cards for your next hand.

The second and part has no other condition, it doesn't say then take an extra turn after this one, if you do, only draw 3 cards for your next hand

So if we follow the rule that we must do as much as we can, we want to take an extra turn, but we can't.
Then we draw 3 cards for our next hand when we get to our Clean-up phase, we can do that.

So we've arrived at the clean-up phase and it gets interesting.

Durations are supposed to be cleaned up when they no longer do anything on the next turn. In this case you could argue that after you've drawn your 3 cards there is nothing left on the card that we need to know for our next turn and it can be immediately discarded. This is contrary to an actual Outpost turn where you need to be reminded that it's an Outpost turn in case you play another Outpost.

37

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 5: More Cards

« on: March 04, 2022, 03:18:21 am »

I guess Royal Galley setting aside the card means the set-aside card no longer counts for things like Horn of Plenty and Peddler, but it does count for cards like Conspirator.

38

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion

« on: March 04, 2022, 02:54:30 am »

Recursion: noun, see recursion

39

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion

« on: March 03, 2022, 12:37:22 pm »

Just played a game with Wizards. They're fun, but it seems quite problematic that Student is a trasher that you can lock other players out of getting once you have it. If there is no other trashing, it's basically a mandatory opener, even on 5/2.

Not locked out; they can always just buy their way through the pile ;-)

Maybe it's me, but I don't think Student is all that overpowered. It trashes just a single card which is not that impressive, BM probably even beats BM+Student.
You have to trash Treasures to get its benefit, but in the early game Coppers are important to reach those critical $5 cards (oftentimes the critical cards are $5+), and Estates are not so you'd rather trash Estates if you can.
And besides trashing, it provides no other value, especially if the Ally isn't that useful.

The topdecking seems powerful, but when you start the game, you only have 10 cards, so say you bought any other trashing card, you'll play it every other turn anyway and increasingly often after you've started thinning.

So you are sacrificing a lot, and I do mean a lot of early game tempo if your strategy depends on Student, so your engine needs to be good enough to catch up.

I don't know if the "Silver test" is still a thing, but there will be many times where you wished it was a Silver.

I'm not sure if this is old meta, but comparing BM+X to BM isn't really a thing anymore; you never play BM+X anyway. Most games have engines. Engines want trashing. If there's no trashing other than Student, you're going to need Student.

The power level is probably comparable to Forager. Sure, there are better trashers, but most games won't have those.

Well there are engines in many shapes and sizes and what even is an engine?
I don't know what the meta is, but I do know the meta has a tendency to overvalue engines, since engines are cool and shiny and everybody wants to build them so you end up with 2 competing engines and 1 will win and you go "See? The engine won!" and then you don't notice that it took the engine 20+ turns to buy 4 Provinces. I've beaten many engines with just treasures and X because a key component was missing, such as +Buy (or another form of gain), which I think is more critical for engines than trashing.

I'm just saying that if Student is the only trashing, the engine payoff really has to be quite good to make it worth the investment.

The power level is probably comparable to Forager. Sure, there are better trashers, but most games won't have those.

Well Forager has +Buy, so that makes it a way better engine enabler.

40

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion

« on: March 03, 2022, 12:25:44 pm »

Just played a game with Wizards. They're fun, but it seems quite problematic that Student is a trasher that you can lock other players out of getting once you have it. If there is no other trashing, it's basically a mandatory opener, even on 5/2.

Not locked out; they can always just buy their way through the pile ;-)

Maybe it's me, but I don't think Student is all that overpowered. It trashes just a single card which is not that impressive, BM probably even beats BM+Student.
You have to trash Treasures to get its benefit, but in the early game Coppers are important to reach those critical $5 cards (oftentimes the critical cards are $5+), and Estates are not so you'd rather trash Estates if you can.
And besides trashing, it provides no other value, especially if the Ally isn't that useful.

The topdecking seems powerful, but when you start the game, you only have 10 cards, so say you bought any other trashing card, you'll play it every other turn anyway and increasingly often after you've started thinning.

So you are sacrificing a lot, and I do mean a lot of early game tempo if your strategy depends on Student, so your engine needs to be good enough to catch up.

I don't know if the "Silver test" is still a thing, but there will be many times where you wished it was a Silver.

41

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion

« on: March 03, 2022, 10:07:19 am »

So does Lich cause you to skip the rest of your current turn or does it wipe out the next one if you play just one?

It skips a turn, which, if we're being pedantic does not necessarily have to mean the next turn, maybe you can choose to skip the turn after the next turn? 

But a turn starts with resolving effects from any previous turn (Durations and/or other start of turn effects) and ends with clean-up where you draw your next hand.
So if you play this, you finish your current turn, discard and draw a new hand and just wait until your opponent finishes 2 turns and then it's your turn again.

Think of it like a reverse Tactician, with Tactician you basically skip your current turn to get a double turn next turn.
With Lich it's the opposite, you get a double turn now, that's what the +6 cards and +2 actions are for. Say you start your turn with 5 cards and 1 action as usual and play this, now you have 10 cards and 2 actions, hey that's double what you started with!

42

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion

« on: March 03, 2022, 09:53:20 am »

Or does it literally mean "does nothing", so not even under-the-line stuff?

And does a Silver which “does nothing” trigger Sauna and Merchant?

Maybe the easiest way to reason about Highwayman is that for any first card which has the type "Treasure" when it is played, the card text is essentially blank, but it still has its name and all its types.

So a Silver which does nothing could still be played, but it gives no $0 and Merchant gets its +$1.

43

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One

« on: March 02, 2022, 02:15:37 pm »

- Elder only interacts with "choose N."
- With Courtier you get one extra choice, not one extra choice per type.
- Tentatively Elder - Scrap - Copper gives you one choice. I can't read the relevant things this minute.

I'm OK with Scrap going either way.

Elder specifies "when it gives you a choice" and you could reason that if you trash something costing $0 you don't even get a choice so you can't get an extra choice.
The conclusion/ruling would be "an extra choice is only valid if you could choose at least one thing, otherwise there was no choice".

But then again, I could see the ruling being "a choice of 0 things is still a choice, so you just get 1 choice instead".

44

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One

« on: March 02, 2022, 08:41:51 am »

I think that not being able to let the player choose the order can be problematic and counter intutive.

Example: Native Village

I would think that if I played Elder with Native Village I could choose the order in which I put a card on the mat and take all my cards from the mat.
But if I have to do it in written order, I always have to put down a card first.

45

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One

« on: March 02, 2022, 08:36:44 am »

And what about Band of Misfits? Its German translation (Vogelfreie) contains „Wähle eine Aktionskarte aus dem Vorrat“ (“Choose one Action card from the supply”) and would be literally affected by Elder.

I do not think this will be the case. You see, "Action card from the Supply" is not an ability, and Elder refers to abilities.

"ability" currently is not a clearly defined term, maybe it should be? I don't know.

There does seem to be a difference between choices presented by cards (abilities?) and choices which are simply part of resolving an effect, such as Scrying Pool's 'your choice'. I would not expect that with Scrying Pool I would be able to choose to both topdeck and discard the card.

46

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One

« on: March 02, 2022, 08:15:14 am »

Interesting. How does Elder interact with Count? Do I get exactly one additional choice or one choice for the (besides of edge cases) bad effect and one choice for the good effect?

And what about Band of Misfits? Its German translation (Vogelfreie) contains „Wähle eine Aktionskarte aus dem Vorrat“ (“Choose one Action card from the supply”) and would be literally affected by Elder.

There are 2 separate "choose one" parts on Count, they are not related, so I guess you need to choose 2 different positives and 2 different negatives.

47

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One

« on: March 02, 2022, 07:58:03 am »

I can tell you that Donald X. playtested the online version before previews week. Hopefully that's not a surprise.

No, but there are a number of wrongly implemented card interations there already, so somehow they get in sometimes, usually corner cases of course. As a rule I just don't base rulings on how the online client works.

I guess you're asking, when does Elder's ability apply? If so then it's your second interpretation: you make the choices all at once, and then you do them in the written order.

I was not asking about that specifically, but that's actually an even more relevant question! From the text I would have thought it was the other way: you first make the choices (all at once) that the card gives, and then you may choose an extra option. (It could still comply with my second interpretation.)

Cards which let you make more than 1 choice always make you make the choices at the same time, so I would guess it works this way with Elder as well.

I think any card which reads "choose one" simply becomes "choose two (choices must be different)" like Pawn.

48

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One

« on: March 02, 2022, 07:50:27 am »

For Catacombs case, can we discard them and +3 Cards 1st and then put them into my hand?

I think the problem here is moving the cards.

The stop-moving rule: An effect can move a card if it specifies where the card is coming from, or if the effect put the card where it is now. If a card isn't where the effect would expect it to be, or has moved away from there and then back, it can't move the card. Played cards expect to be in play; they can't move themselves if they aren't. Gained cards are expected to be where they were gained to, even if this isn't the discard pile. Cards in discard piles can be moved even if covered up by other cards; cards on top of a deck can't be moved once covered up.

Either effect of Catacombs expects the cards to be on top of your deck. So if you first discard them and draw 3 new cards, I would think that attempting to put them into your hand would fail.

If the card would be retrofit with text like this:

Choose one: put the top 3 cards of your deck into your hand; or discard them and +3 cards. You may look at the top 3 cards of your deck before making a choice.

Then it would work I guess?

49

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles

« on: March 01, 2022, 03:30:40 am »

I like how the split piles tell a little story, just like the travellers.

50

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies

« on: February 28, 2022, 01:14:12 pm »

Coastal Haven says "when discarding", I guess this is really "when you would discard"? That is to say, you never discard the cards you want to keep, right? So a Tunnel wouldn't trigger, for instance.

Tunnel doesn't trigger during cleanup anyway, right?

Cards that do something when discarded always explicitly specify "other than during Clean-up".
Faithful hound does so as well.

But maybe the wording could have been "Before you discard your hand during Clean-up", but I find the actual wording not too confusing.
The intent of the card is clear, you get to keep some cards instead of discarding them. It's not like you first discard, then trigger this, then have to pull stuff from the discard pile.