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101

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 31, 2018, 11:24:51 am »

Finished reread on Hydrad again. Actually seemed really towny. A little clumsy, but in a way that I don't think scum would be. This post is very towny to me, and I'm surprised it didn't jump out the last time I did a reread:

so the reason i was dissapointed was I was pretty sure when faust died that we were going to have a high chance in finding scum.

My theory was that scum team killed faust to try to let their partner get a better chance to claim. (plus its faust so may as well).

But anyways if I was traitor and going to claim I would of claimed faust was guilty. because why would scum team frame faust. all that would do is mess up my chance to claim the nice 2-2 split.

Then with both cops claiming town results right away that made it even more likely in my opinion for them to have not framed faust. I feel like traitor would have said faust was scum for his result (due to my logic above) if he went first in the claiming order so when both cops claimed town I was going to instantly assume that if there were 2 people that claimed faust was scum that one of them was scum.

So in reality I think we would of been hoping for the 2-2 split because I think we would of hit scum in the guilty section and make it a 50-50 in finding them. Which hilariously means I think the correct decision for traitor if they would have claimed would to make it the 3-1 split instead.

Anyways all this is pointless now but I was really excited to bring this up and find scum.

So I guess all in all the traitor either
a) realized that if they claimed it probably wouldn't have worked as well as they had hoped.
or
b) is near the top of the list.

I guess it could be both a and b but whatever, I wanted to seem smart.

That just doesn't feel like scum to me.

Vote: Gkrieg

Will be doing some more rereads today.

102

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 31, 2018, 12:50:11 am »

Thor's Well

Also this is so gorgeous. I just researched this spot and now I want to go. If anyone's thinking about visiting the PNW, I highly recommend it. I'm from OR and there are amazing gems like this all over the place.

103

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 31, 2018, 12:44:31 am »

I should have lots of availability tomorrow during the day, very little in the evening, not much Saturday morning, and then Saturday afternoon leading up to deadline is an unknown, but I will prioritize this if we are down to the wire at all.

Tomorrow morning I'm going to finish a reread of one person, probably drop some thoughts on that and other reads, then put my vote back on gkrieg.

104

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 30, 2018, 09:34:15 pm »

In fact, unvote: gkrieg.

I fully intend to put my vote back on soon but I am spooked by the trigger fingers around here and I have more reading to do before day's end.

This is overly cautious and bad!

I am completely planning to vote for him again but I was leaving computer access and I didn't know if/when I would have access again tonight. I didn't want any clowns hammering before I was back...again

105

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 30, 2018, 04:35:24 pm »

thats L-2 btw

Hey I still value using more of our time and I would still like to do at least a reread of Hyrdad and maybe some others. I'm not gonna be on constantly tonight but I would prefer not to see people hammer right away, even if we enough people are interested in the lynch.

In fact, unvote: gkrieg.

I fully intend to put my vote back on soon but I am spooked by the trigger fingers around here and I have more reading to do before day's end.

106

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 30, 2018, 03:46:13 pm »

Finished my reread of Gkrieg, also reread Mcmc's case on him.

I think Mcmc is VERY towny and I am glad he's doing so much today.

I've never played with gkrieg. LaLight and others have said that he's an amazing town player, often a n1 kill target. I haven't seen amazing town play here. I've seen a fair bit of confusion about the setup or the situation (Robz being in a different position on the wagon than initially thought, Robz having a scumslip that really wasn't actually a scumslip). I've seen pushing wagons on PPS, Robz, and Galz. I have seen almost zero "I think X person is being towny." So overall it's possible that he's not having his greatest game as town, but I get a stronger feeling that he is sowing and watering chaos as scum.

The arguments that LaLight, Awaclus, and Gkrieg have made about coaching the traitor - I admit these could have some merit to them. Especially Awaclus' point that in order to be truly optimal, mafia has to communicate their desires with the traitor. IMO this is something that the mafia/traitor can figure out independently and relatively easily, without having to talk in the thread. And I also am a strong believer that setup discussion can be valuable for town, for the reasons I've listed before. Nevertheless, I can understand the suspicion and maybe this is a reason that I would take another look at Galz in the future (not today - absolutely against lynching him today).

Insofar as this argument implicates me, I know it's wrong. But since it's coming from multiple people, I obviously don't think they're all scum. However, I think it's very likely that there is scum within this group, probably attempting to push more suspicion on 2 active players.

Vote: Gkrieg

107

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day One!)

« on: August 30, 2018, 01:43:51 pm »

gkrieg13 - he is awesome! Considered as one of the best players of modern community, gkrieg always plays extremely pro-town and can guess the whole scum-team in his first post and be right. That's why, along with faust, he is usually a N1 kill.

I am starting my rereads now and I wanted to ask LaLight how well you think gkrieg is fitting in with his usual town play thus far?

108

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 30, 2018, 01:40:37 pm »

The thing about coaching the traitor is that it's super easy for scum to do it, because traitor knows mafia. Normally you would have to manage signaling to the traitor that you're mafia and that you're coaching them while appearing to everyone else as town, which is pretty impossible, but here, you only have to signal to the traitor who already knows that you're mafia that you're coaching them while appearing to everyone else as town, which is pretty easy to do under the guise of "setup analysis".

It's also noteworthy that so far, it looks like the traitor has actually done everything according to the coaching from Dsell and Galz.

It's wild to me that y'all think it's scummy to be doing setup analysis.

-This is a brand new setup we've never done on the site before
-People had details of the setup wrong, which could have significantly hampered town's ability to deduce correct information if left unchecked

I think you're significantly underestimating the players here if you don't think the traitor would have figured out some optimal moves to make, and planned them out. If I was scum, playing a new setup, I would study the hell out of it to figure out how I could screw town the most. If town just skims the setup and tries to play a regular game of mafia, town will lose. Town has to work just as hard or harder than scum to figure shit out and cut off scum's moves - or point out the moves (ideally, after the fact) that helped scum more than town.

So when you say that the traitor "has actually done everything according to coaching" I think we have a correlation-not-causation situation. Yeah the traitor has probably done some of the things that we pointed out the traitor might do - because they make sense for the traitor to do. But that doesn't mean they were influenced by us. Us putting in the same amount of work as the traitor will help us find them.

109

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 30, 2018, 01:10:37 am »

I can do rereads on Gkrieg and Hydrad today, probably.

This didn't happen and I didn't have a lot of time for close reading of everything that happened today. I'm anticipating having some time tomorrow so I will really make an effort to do these rereads.

110

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 29, 2018, 11:54:15 pm »

Iguana: If a (sane) cop investigates the traitor the same night that the mafia kill the traitor, would the traitor show up as town or scum?

And by kill, I obviously mean recruit.

111

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 29, 2018, 11:53:49 pm »

Iguana: If a (sane) cop investigates the traitor the same night that the mafia kill the traitor, would the traitor show up as town or scum?

112

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 29, 2018, 02:17:16 pm »

Can framers frame the same person, thus double framing this person?

wat

113

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 29, 2018, 02:03:01 pm »

I don't think cops should coordinate today, just gives scum more information. Coordination was required to confirm sanities, but beyond that the less info we give scum the better.

Still like my hydrad vote

The last time you voted for him was 8 pages ago before all this shit went down. Do you have any new or updated reasoning? Or pretty much just the same reasons?

Weren't you the one that said that we shouldn't ask the cops for their reads?

I have definitely never said that.

114

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 29, 2018, 01:08:50 pm »

I don't think cops should coordinate today, just gives scum more information. Coordination was required to confirm sanities, but beyond that the less info we give scum the better.

Still like my hydrad vote

The last time you voted for him was 8 pages ago before all this shit went down. Do you have any new or updated reasoning? Or pretty much just the same reasons?

115

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 29, 2018, 10:17:15 am »

I confess I'm only 85% sure I know the answer to this: if a Framer frames a townie, and the Insane Cop investigates this townie, does the Insane Cop get the result "town"?

Yes. The townie would show up as "scum" for investigations, and so the insane cop will show the opposite of that.

116

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 29, 2018, 10:07:09 am »

Loving the level of participation from Robz and Mcmc. It does seem like DatSwan is forgetting that there are 2 mafia framers and can frame 2 targets.

There have been a weird number of errors regarding the setup in this game. Everyone should 100% understand the setup, and if you don't please go back and reread it. If you are town and don't fully get the setup, that is actively going to hurt town as we try to puzzle certain things together.

I can do rereads on Gkrieg and Hydrad today, probably.

117

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 28, 2018, 10:17:47 pm »

I could see Galzria as scum but I'm far from certain. Dsell, too--not sure if this is first-game-back enthusiasm or scum enthusiasm.

First-game-back enthusiasm! 

118

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 28, 2018, 04:00:13 pm »

We do not have 2 ICs. I was talking about a hypothetical situation in which Scum DatSwan claimed to be the insane cop, after seeing that the actual insane cop did not claim.

To expand on this - LaLight was saying that DatSwan has to be telling the truth, because scum in DatSwan's situation would have simply claimed insane cop.

I pointed out that this is not necessarily beneficial for Scum DatSwan because it sets up a 1 v 1 - even if we lynch the wrong person on the first day, we will correctly kill scum DatSwan on the second day. And in this scenario, the sane cops are unopposed, so we would have gotten 2 IC cops.

I agree that DatSwan is most likely town because of this. Because there was a safe fake claim for them, and they chose not to take it

I'm actually saying the exact opposite here. If DatSwan is scum, I think he made the smart move by claiming sane cop, rather than insane cop. If he had claimed insane cop, I think there was a good chance he would die tomorrow. By claiming sane cop, it makes the water really murky and we have 3 people who most likely have 1 scum between them, but it's too big of a risk to lynch any of them.

But that's only if DatSwan is scum. DatSwan could be town and telling the truth, and someone else fakeclaimed for a different reason.

119

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 28, 2018, 02:24:15 pm »

We do not have 2 ICs. I was talking about a hypothetical situation in which Scum DatSwan claimed to be the insane cop, after seeing that the actual insane cop did not claim.

To expand on this - LaLight was saying that DatSwan has to be telling the truth, because scum in DatSwan's situation would have simply claimed insane cop.

I pointed out that this is not necessarily beneficial for Scum DatSwan because it sets up a 1 v 1 - even if we lynch the wrong person on the first day, we will correctly kill scum DatSwan on the second day. And in this scenario, the sane cops are unopposed, so we would have gotten 2 IC cops.

120

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 28, 2018, 02:18:30 pm »

In this situation at this point, I believe e more than LaLight or DatSwan given both claim order and e's analysis of this.

After everything LaLight has said, I still stand by this - e is most likely to be telling the truth of the 3 claimed cops, I believe. (Of course, it's guaranteed that 2 of them are truthful)

Why?

Again I don’t think this is a good conversation to be having today when we aren’t lynching cops.

I don't want to lynch any of them but it's very possible that one of them is actively working against the town - I think this is all fair to consider since we were sheeping their IC perspectives 24 hours ago.

@LaLight your jumping in first to claim cop and DatSwan being the very last to claim based on signup order are the most convenient/safe places to claim. Again, we hadn't fully decided on doing signup order when you made your claim.

How in the world would it be safer to claim first? Traitor wanted claims to split evenly – 2-2 for the best effect. I knew no one really scumread me then and if I were Traitor I would pick a popcorn order.

Why would DatSwan claim sane cop? He could claim Insane and then when the real insane cop stepped up, no one would believe them

Correct, we could lynch them that day and then we would lynch DatSwan the next day. In the meantime, we have 2 ICs and cops. In this scenario that's actually happening, if he is scum he is setting up a 1 in 3 where we know one person is lying but we have no ICs and there is a lot more confusion. Down the line we will be able to piece it together, but right now we are hesitant to lynch any of you, meaning you all - including the likely scum among you, have some survivability. And in fact, the scum has the most since they won't be night killed.

Wait, how do we have 2 ICs?

I actually think scum messed up here, because they can't kill the cops because that will PoE them.

We do not have 2 ICs. I was talking about a hypothetical situation in which Scum DatSwan claimed to be the insane cop, after seeing that the actual insane cop did not claim.

121

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 28, 2018, 01:28:01 pm »

Vote: Galz

Is this because you believe he was directing the traitor?

I don't want scum to know why exactly.

I am not convinced by your argument here, because I think this is probably the correct call if one of them WERE town and lying.

Are you his scum partner?

So galz and I are the two scum, along with the traitor who is one of LL, e, and datswan, and literally all of the lurkers are town. Sure.

Then why are you defending Galz?

I think he has done really solid analysis, and all of the (few) things that you have said have been scummy, look reasonable to me from a town perspective. He is one of the most active people and as long as I've known him, is extremely valuable as town. He could be scum but I don't see enough evidence for that yet. And if he's town I want him to stay alive bc he's contributing.

122

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 28, 2018, 01:21:55 pm »

Vote: Galz

Is this because you believe he was directing the traitor?

I don't want scum to know why exactly.

I am not convinced by your argument here, because I think this is probably the correct call if one of them WERE town and lying.

Are you his scum partner?

So galz and I are the two scum, along with the traitor who is one of LL, e, and datswan, and literally all of the lurkers are town. Sure.

123

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 28, 2018, 01:15:02 pm »

In this situation at this point, I believe e more than LaLight or DatSwan given both claim order and e's analysis of this.

After everything LaLight has said, I still stand by this - e is most likely to be telling the truth of the 3 claimed cops, I believe. (Of course, it's guaranteed that 2 of them are truthful)

Why?

Again I don’t think this is a good conversation to be having today when we aren’t lynching cops.

I don't want to lynch any of them but it's very possible that one of them is actively working against the town - I think this is all fair to consider since we were sheeping their IC perspectives 24 hours ago.

@LaLight your jumping in first to claim cop and DatSwan being the very last to claim based on signup order are the most convenient/safe places to claim. Again, we hadn't fully decided on doing signup order when you made your claim.

How in the world would it be safer to claim first? Traitor wanted claims to split evenly – 2-2 for the best effect. I knew no one really scumread me then and if I were Traitor I would pick a popcorn order.

Yeah claiming first is definitely not as safe as claiming last, I do completely get that. I am still trying to wrap my head around it. In the hypothetical situation in my head where you are scum, perhaps you took advantage of being first in the signup order so there would be more suspicion on the later people? I am not sure. It doesn't make a lot of sense but NONE of this makes a lot of sense today.

It was somewhat jarring that you just jumped in and started the claiming and declared that it would be done in signup order, but I'm not sure whether it's actually scummy or just frustrating. Maybe e is the traitor, got screwed by the signup order, and claimed the wrong thing. This is all why I definitely don't want to lynch one of y'all today, I'm hoping that everything will somehow be more clear tomorrow or the next day.

124

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 28, 2018, 01:06:31 pm »

In this situation at this point, I believe e more than LaLight or DatSwan given both claim order and e's analysis of this.

After everything LaLight has said, I still stand by this - e is most likely to be telling the truth of the 3 claimed cops, I believe. (Of course, it's guaranteed that 2 of them are truthful)

Why?

Again I don’t think this is a good conversation to be having today when we aren’t lynching cops.

I don't want to lynch any of them but it's very possible that one of them is actively working against the town - I think this is all fair to consider since we were sheeping their IC perspectives 24 hours ago.

@LaLight your jumping in first to claim cop and DatSwan being the very last to claim based on signup order are the most convenient/safe places to claim. Again, we hadn't fully decided on doing signup order when you made your claim.

How in the world would it be safer to claim first? Traitor wanted claims to split evenly – 2-2 for the best effect. I knew no one really scumread me then and if I were Traitor I would pick a popcorn order.

Why would DatSwan claim sane cop? He could claim Insane and then when the real insane cop stepped up, no one would believe them

Correct, we could lynch them that day and then we would lynch DatSwan the next day. In the meantime, we have 2 ICs and cops. In this scenario that's actually happening, if he is scum he is setting up a 1 in 3 where we know one person is lying but we have no ICs and there is a lot more confusion. Down the line we will be able to piece it together, but right now we are hesitant to lynch any of you, meaning you all - including the likely scum among you, have some survivability. And in fact, the scum has the most since they won't be night killed.

125

Mafia Game Threads / Re: M118: Pacific Northwest Mafia (Day Two!)

« on: August 28, 2018, 12:55:28 pm »

In this situation at this point, I believe e more than LaLight or DatSwan given both claim order and e's analysis of this.

After everything LaLight has said, I still stand by this - e is most likely to be telling the truth of the 3 claimed cops, I believe. (Of course, it's guaranteed that 2 of them are truthful)

Why?

Again I don’t think this is a good conversation to be having today when we aren’t lynching cops.

I don't want to lynch any of them but it's very possible that one of them is actively working against the town - I think this is all fair to consider since we were sheeping their IC perspectives 24 hours ago.

@LaLight your jumping in first to claim cop and DatSwan being the very last to claim based on signup order are the most convenient/safe places to claim. Again, we hadn't fully decided on doing signup order when you made your claim.