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Goko Dominion Online / Re: F.DS room on (public) Goko - Outpost?
« on: January 23, 2013, 12:53:09 pm »
I like Outpost. Secret Chamber was for pre-arranged games anyway, and I don't think this really qualifies.
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6352
Dominion General Discussion / Re: DA lacking draw cards?
« on: January 22, 2013, 01:11:13 pm »
So, I'm not a physicist, but why are orders of magnitude powers of 10? Why not powers of 8 or 16?
EDIT: Hmm, actually, maybe I don't want to derail this thread any more than it already has been.
EDIT: Hmm, actually, maybe I don't want to derail this thread any more than it already has been.
6353
Dominion General Discussion / Re: DA lacking draw cards?
« on: January 22, 2013, 12:30:22 pm »I'm an engineer, I approximate things.
Not trying to start something, but an engineer for who? That statement is one of the oddest things I've read today, and it was a big reading day for me.
The old joke is that if an engineer can make an approximation to make the math easier, s/he will. It comes under the heading of "If X... you might be a Y" jokes:
If you can say 'let's approximate this horse as a sphere to make the math easier' with a straight face... you might be an engineer.
pi is exactly 3.
This is true for very large values of 3.
6354
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Base vs. Expansions (Here we go again...)
« on: January 22, 2013, 12:18:00 pm »
When my wife is losing, she starts taking forever to shuffle. It's not usually a conscious decision on her part, but it sure gets annoying. Especially because it means I have to re-sleeve more often.
6355
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Base vs. Expansions (Here we go again...)
« on: January 21, 2013, 09:55:29 pm »With any kind of luck, I'll be ordering Intrigue in the next few days.
Skip intrigue for now. A better next expansion is maybe seaside or prosperity or hinterlands.
Ah, Intrigue's fine. Might as well get it first and get some use out of Scout before the Action/Victory card density gets too low.
6356
Dominion Articles / Re: Fortress
« on: January 19, 2013, 09:30:27 am »You know what else Fortress and Rats are good with? Each other.
"Play a Rats, draw a card, gain a Rats, trash a Fortess, putting it in my hand, play a Rats, draw a card, gain a Rats, trash a Fortess, putting it in my hand, play a Rats, draw a card, gain a Rats, trash a Fortess, putting it in my hand, play a Rats, draw a card, gain a Rats, trash a Fortess, putting it in my hand, play a Rats, draw a card, gain a Rats, trash a Fortess, putting it in my hand, play a Rats, draw a card, gain a Rats, trash a Fortess, putting it in my hand, play a Rats, draw a card, gain a Rats, trash a Fortess, putting it in my hand..."
How is that a good idea? You're filling your deck with Rats and you're not even getting the benefit of trashing bad cards that usually comes with it.
6357
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Q & A with Ted Griggs (CEO) and John Smith (VP of Product) of Goko
« on: January 18, 2013, 07:10:54 pm »These aren't questions for the Ted and John, but for Trisha and the rest of us.
Being that this upcoming Q&A session is with the CEO and VP of Product, aren't these Dominion-implementation questions a bit specific? Aren't they better suited for the developers, etc? If so, what kinds of questions should we be asking?
Man, I just reread my post and realized how ambiguous it was. When I said that "These aren't questions for Ted and John", I was talking about my questions in my post, not the questions in posts previous to mine. Sorry!
6358
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Partition: Cheaper cards all around
« on: January 18, 2013, 06:13:44 pm »How odd, LastFootnote is putting words in my mouth and contradicting them!
(I re-read the OP and deleted my post, apparently not in time, however...)
Hey, man. That hurts. I was just trying to be helpful.
6359
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Partition: Cheaper cards all around
« on: January 18, 2013, 06:06:51 pm »Is the intention for the reaction to block Curses?
Note: You can reveal this when you gain a card costing $0 to gain nothing instead.
Sure looks like it.
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Goko Dominion Online / Re: Q & A with Ted Griggs (CEO) and John Smith (VP of Product) of Goko
« on: January 18, 2013, 06:05:52 pm »
These aren't questions for the Ted and John, but for Trisha and the rest of us.
Being that this upcoming Q&A session is with the CEO and VP of Product, aren't these Dominion-implementation questions a bit specific? Aren't they better suited for the developers, etc? If so, what kinds of questions should we be asking?
Being that this upcoming Q&A session is with the CEO and VP of Product, aren't these Dominion-implementation questions a bit specific? Aren't they better suited for the developers, etc? If so, what kinds of questions should we be asking?
6361
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Partition: Cheaper cards all around
« on: January 18, 2013, 06:01:08 pm »
I really like the card, although it might need a bit of work to be balanced.
Perhaps the Action portion could be, "Trash a card from your hand. Gain 3 differently-named cheaper cards."
I'm not sure it needs the Reaction portion, but if you want it, it could require a discard to prevent an endless loop. "When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a cheaper card, putting it on top of your deck."
Perhaps the Action portion could be, "Trash a card from your hand. Gain 3 differently-named cheaper cards."
I'm not sure it needs the Reaction portion, but if you want it, it could require a discard to prevent an endless loop. "When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a cheaper card, putting it on top of your deck."
6362
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Werewolf
« on: January 18, 2013, 12:33:22 pm »Werewolf
$5 Action-Attack
+$2
Each other player discards the top card of his deck. If the discarded card is a Silver, trash this Werewolf. Otherwise he gains a Curse, placing it on top of his deck.
That's a good solution for the politics, but there's one other issue with the card that nobody's mentioned: it promotes boring money strategies.
Basically, if Werewolf is on the board, you're incentivized to buy Silver rather than interesting Kingdom cards. Then if everybody loads up on Silver, people won't want to buy Werewolf. So I predict it will lead to boring games.
6363
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Alchemy on Goko
« on: January 14, 2013, 09:07:17 pm »They probably launched it without possession precisely because it's the card that's hardest, and it's simply not ready for testing yet.
Clearly. But they could have waited until they were finished.
6364
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Alchemy on Goko
« on: January 14, 2013, 08:44:46 pm »
I'm a bit surprised they launched it without Possession, even in Beta. It's the card that'll need the most testing. Are they planning on releasing it to the public beta without Possession?
6365
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« on: January 14, 2013, 06:04:05 pm »Well, how about this as a proposal: Initially the pure unbiased randomizer will be listed as the top one. We implement a rating/approval system for kingdoms that players can give after they play a game. The order of randomizers will be re-sorted based on whichever randomizer has a higher (Bayesian) rating.
That way, in the long run, whichever randomizer, yours, mine, unbiased, generates the better kingdoms, as determined by the players, becomes the UI default for new players who have decided to use a randomizer for the first time.
Would that work for you?
I think that sounds very reasonable. The biggest issue I have is that the buttons shouldn't jump around too much. People don't like it when the options are suddenly in a different order for no explained reason. If one of the randomizers is the runaway winner, this would be a non-issue.
It would be nice to somehow give players Kingdoms generated by a randomly selected randomizer. That would remove some biases and give players an opportunity to rank sets generated by all the randomizers. However, I wouldn't want to force that on people by default and having a 'Random Randomizer' button seems strange. Maybe it'd be OK.
One other minor note is that, if and when my suggested randomizer is available on Goko, it should only be available to players who have purchased at least one expansion. The reason is that if you only own the Base Set, it's identical to unbiased random. The extra option that doesn't change anything would only serve to confuse players.
I think we need some nomenclature for these randomizers and the games they generate. For yours, "Balanced Game" seems most appropriate, assuming that you will/have already gotten it to the point where it successfully creates Kingdoms with no one clear strategy. For the algorithm I use, I suggest the name "Flavorful Game", since it produces games that have concentrations of flavor from just two or three expansions, rather than mixing in everything.
But what's the best name for unbiased random? "Default Game" won't work if it doesn't end up as the default. "Unbiased Game" seems a little technical. "Random Game" isn't specific enough; they're all random. "Pro Game" implies the game is being ranked on the Pro leaderboard, which won't necessarily be the case. Maybe "Basic Game" is the best bet.
Of course, it's also important that players get a short description of each randomizer when they choose it, so they know what to expect.
6366
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« on: January 14, 2013, 04:36:29 pm »Currently, I refuse to play full random with new players. I pretty much hated the game after my first five plays or so, and that was just full random with base set. After I grew to like the game, I initially would play full random with new players, and I noticed a similar reaction. I have played probably around 3 games with players for whom they had played the game once with experienced players on full random, and felt that they just "didn't get the game" and weren't interested in playing it again. I convinced them to give it another chance, but with the First Game Starting Kingdom, and generally their feelings towards the game improved.
This may be why I never had this experience. I always start new players with the First Game setup. I'm not surprised that new players thrown into the deep end would have a negative reaction.
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Casual players I define differently. Even though I've probably played the game a few hundred
times by now, I consider myself a casual player (although I'm definitely on the edge). The line that I draw is this: A serious player is looking to better themselves at the game and is willing to spend time improving their skills. A casual player wants a few dozen minutes of entertainment. The fun in Dominion, for casual players, is not about learning cute-but-rare interactions, or about making strategic decisions that increase your chances of winning by 1% at a time, but about playing the common interactions that most players who are no longer "new" know about.
I remember a discussion I had, not soon after Intrigue came out, in one of my regular gaming groups. Some players wanted to veto Saboteur and Torturer, on the grounds that games with them aren't very fun. David desJardins said something along the lines of, "Why aren't they fun? The purpose of the game is to win, why does it matter whether the winning score is 30 or 2?" That was probably the starting point of me noticing this divide.
I think it is likely that casual players are the "silent majority" of Dominion players. I would say that every single employee here at Goko is a casual player, which is why sometimes have to fight pretty hard about getting card interactions to actually work correctly. I bet if you put a poll within Goko, asking the question, "Is it important that when-buy and when-gain work correctly?", the votes for "Not really, but we should do it because the fan base wants it" would outnumber the votes for "Yes, because it's the right thing to do."
This is all very reasonable, but I'm not convinced your algorithm addresses these issues. If people think games with Attacks are not fun (and I know a few such people), how does your little-bit-of-everything randomizer help that? A card veto list is certainly desirable for casual games. I won't argue that point.
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There was a period in my life when I played on isotropic regularly, maybe about 3 games a day. At some point I realized that I wasn't enjoying the overall experience. I hated getting crushed by high-rated players because I didn't want to invest the time into bettering myself. I kind-of enjoyed crushing lower-rated players but I couldn't get the full enjoyment because I knew there was another human on the other side that was losing. I hated going through "crazy" kingdoms.
Now on Goko, I get a much happier play experience. I play lots of bots and I don't have to feel bad about crushing them. I still suffer through the "crazy" kingdoms, but now that I actually got off my ass and wrote a generator that decreases them I play them much less.
I really don't feel that my play desires are that uncommon. I play in a local pinball league; few of the other players there spend time doing card games or board games. I know of at least three people there who play Androminion on their phone, against a bot. I've asked them if they would rather play on isotropic, and they say "no, I tried isotropic and all the players there are too good."
Sounds like your bad experiences and those of your friends have a lot more to do with your opponents than with the Kingdoms you played. I agree that Goko needs a good ranking system and a good matching system based on it, but that's a separate issue (and one that deserves a higher priority). This is a problem for any game. I wouldn't want to play chess against a grandmaster other than to say I've done it. Here you only mention crazy kingdoms as a brief aside.
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QuoteIf you want it so that new players can get the hang of the game with some good kingdoms, Adventure mode already takes care of that. Hell, the fact that they can only play with the Base Set takes care of that. I've said it before: Dominion has become very popular without your fancy algorithm that reduces variety.
I'm not denying that it's become very popular without my fancy algorithm. But if you're trying to make an argument that giving people the option of my fancy algorithm is going to decrease its popularity, it's going to require more than that assertion to convince me. Dominion is a popular game, but I want to see it reach the popularity of Farmville.
Giving them the option is fine as long as:
A) Your algorithm actually provides something that people want.
B) It's not the default.
Yeah, you say you want there not to be a default, but in a UI there is ALWAYS a default. You say you want to make it so a player has to choose which randomizer to use before each game. I ask you, "Which option is the top one?" Because that's the default. That's what new players are going to try first. As long as your algorithm isn't the default (the top option) and has a descriptive name, I'm fine with it being available.
I admit that I'm wrestling to come up with a good name for kingdoms produced by your algorithm. I guess "Balanced Game" might be OK once you've evened out the card biases a little more.
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I believe that Dominion's main draw for players is a certain level of manageable variety, but then any additional variety added on top of that is lost on most players. I bet the most popular game on Windows right now is Solitaire. People don't play that because they want variety, they play that game because they know the rules already and it's a fun way to waste some time. (Did you know Windows Solitaire has six different ways you can play it? I believe most people don't because they're not looking for variety.) I want to try to get Dominion into that niche.
The people who don't want variety won't buy more sets, which only serve to increase variety. Those people provide revenue through ads rather than Gokoins. If they don't want variety, they can play the recommended sets of 10 and the Adventures over and over. Nothing wrong with that.
6367
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« on: January 14, 2013, 04:11:32 pm »That was not an answer to my actual question.May I have your approval, please?
Independently, if you would like to write your code in Javascript, provide an API with examples, and allow them to use it for free, I would be very enthusiastic to convince Goko to put your generator in as an option.
Let me rephrase. I don't have a webserver. I would be happy to have you host my algorithm and to provide it to Goko for free. Ideally, I'd like to take a crack at writing it myself, using your generator and your API as a starting point and hosting it on your server, both for my convenience and Goko's. I assume our generators can have an identical output format, for instance, and I believe your card data in dominionSetGeneratorData.js is sufficient for my needs. If this is acceptable, perhaps we can discuss the specifics through email.
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A longer-range plan would be for Goko to provide an API that would allow any programmer to use their own generator when making kingdoms. I will put that in as a stretch goal.
I had this idea as well. It would be neat, but I wouldn't blame Goko for putting it at the bottom of the priority list.
6368
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Adventure mode questions
« on: January 14, 2013, 03:16:05 pm »Dark Ages and Intrigue aren't in their final forms though, they have some quick fix but there is still fixing to do.
Huh, that's cool. I thought they were great already, but I'm very curious as to what the further changes would be.
6369
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« on: January 14, 2013, 03:07:44 pm »Your homemade randomizer is pretty close to how I randomized games when using real randomizer cards.
I certainly fully support having this as an option for Goko, assuming that you don't feel that you have some sort of ownership over the basic concept.
No, I certainly have no such feeling of ownership.
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As an independent question, would you have any objections if I replicated your generator's behavior in my set generator? Not as the "default" settings, but effectively a separate generation option.
I was actually considering doing that myself. It may be faster since I'm already familiar with coding the algorithm and the various necessary quirks to take care of edge cases. I'm much more familiar with HTML and JavaScript than I was two years ago when I coded my Java app, or chances are I would have made it HTML in the first place.
6370
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« on: January 14, 2013, 02:37:49 pm »
Onigame, please answer me this question: why are you convinced this convoluted algorithm is necessary, especially for casual players? Have you played Dominion with new players a bunch of times using full random and had them complain that too many kingdoms weren't fun? Because I've never had that happen.
If you want it so that new players can get the hang of the game with some good kingdoms, Adventure mode already takes care of that. Hell, the fact that they can only play with the Base Set takes care of that. I've said it before: Dominion has become very popular without your fancy algorithm that reduces variety.
Why are you so convinced that there is a problem and that an algorithm of your design is the solution? You yourself have said that there are a bunch of other things you'd like to be working on. Why is this such a high priority? Every time you post, it seems like you're operating under the assumption that this randomizer is necessary for Goko. Why? Why can't you just tell them, "Hey, turns out this was a bad idea. Nevermind"?
Again, the reason I'm so vehemently against your algorithm is that it only serves to reduce variety. In my eyes, Dominion's main draw for new players is that variety. I'm guessing your algorithm is more likely to make the experience of playing several games less fun for new players, rather than more.
If you want it so that new players can get the hang of the game with some good kingdoms, Adventure mode already takes care of that. Hell, the fact that they can only play with the Base Set takes care of that. I've said it before: Dominion has become very popular without your fancy algorithm that reduces variety.
Why are you so convinced that there is a problem and that an algorithm of your design is the solution? You yourself have said that there are a bunch of other things you'd like to be working on. Why is this such a high priority? Every time you post, it seems like you're operating under the assumption that this randomizer is necessary for Goko. Why? Why can't you just tell them, "Hey, turns out this was a bad idea. Nevermind"?
Again, the reason I'm so vehemently against your algorithm is that it only serves to reduce variety. In my eyes, Dominion's main draw for new players is that variety. I'm guessing your algorithm is more likely to make the experience of playing several games less fun for new players, rather than more.
6371
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« on: January 14, 2013, 01:39:09 pm »Which is extremally important especially when those generators will be used for casual play - I look at the table, see which generator was used and can instantly decide if I want to play this game, without having to spend time on analyzing the whole set.
Well, what I had in mind is that while you do get the see what generator was used, in casual play the table generation should try to occur before you decide if you want to play the game. This not only mimics real life but is what isotropic does: Here's the kingdom you're going to play with, do you want to play it?
And if you can see the kingdom, it is really that important which generator was used to make it? (My generator, unlike any other custom generator out there that I've seen, is completely probabilistic and so it is theoretically possible that every set will be generated by it.)
While technically true, this is a pretty meaningless statement. Here's my new random algorithm: Generate a random number between 1 and 10000000. If the number is 17, pull random cards from all owned cards. Otherwise, use the recommended First Set kingdom from the base game.
All Kingdoms are technically possible! Woo-hoo!
6372
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Adventure mode questions
« on: January 14, 2013, 01:35:34 pm »
Question #1: No. You must purchase the expansion.
Question #2: The Intrigue and Dark Ages campaigns have been fixed. I can recommend them. The Base Set campaign is pretty dull, and the Seaside and Prosperity campaigns still require silly numbers of zaps. Hinterlands and Cornucopia don't even have campaigns yet.
I think Adventure mode has been on the back burner for several months now. I do wish they'd fix up the starting hands for Seaside and Prosperity. That seems like a trivial change.
Question #2: The Intrigue and Dark Ages campaigns have been fixed. I can recommend them. The Base Set campaign is pretty dull, and the Seaside and Prosperity campaigns still require silly numbers of zaps. Hinterlands and Cornucopia don't even have campaigns yet.
I think Adventure mode has been on the back burner for several months now. I do wish they'd fix up the starting hands for Seaside and Prosperity. That seems like a trivial change.
6373
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« on: January 13, 2013, 05:29:42 pm »
If I understand correctly, the problem we have is that pure random creates too many 'crazy' Kingdoms and not enough 'fun' Kingdoms. 'Crazy' Kingoms being defined as Kingdoms that are 'unbalanced'; they have too much of some things and none of other things. 'Fun' Kingdoms have a good mix of everything on offer: non-terminal Actions, extra buys and/or gains, attacks, a good cost distribution, etc.
If you own just the Base Set, this is basically a non-issue. The card pool is small enough that choosing a card that fits one criterion makes it significanly more likely that the other cards you choose will fit other criteria. You can't very well have a Kingdom with 10 splitters (villages) if there are only 3 splitters in your card pool (Village, Throne Room, Festival). Under these circumstances, I argue that a fancy randomizer is completely unnecessary. Sure, you'll get a Kingdom with no non-terminal Actions once in a great while, but they're rare enough to be a cool novelty rather than a big issue.
As the card pool grows, however, crazy Kingoms become more common when you use pure random. Adding a splitter no longer significantly reduces the chances of getting more splitters, etc. Now some might argue that this is as it should be. Players are likely to buy more expansions as they get more familiar with the game and crave more variety. As that happens, they may be more able to deal with 'crazier' Kingdoms. However, let's assume that this isn't the case. I'm sure there will be some players who love the Base Set so much that they'll buy the mega-pack and get everything all at once. So we'll take it as a given that it's still desirable to have fewer 'crazy' Kingdoms than full random provides.
So if the issue is that a larger card pool creates more crazy Kingdoms, here's my solution: reduce the size of the cardpool before choosing your Kingdom cards.
Doing this is simple. Just choose 2 or 3 expansions that you're going to use and then only choose cards from them. Specifically, here's how my homemade randomizer does it:
1. Add 'required' cards to the Kingdom (cards that the user has chosen to definitely be in the Kingdom).
2. Determine how many promo cards will be included in the Kingdom (using a hypergeometric distribution), choose that many promo cards randomly, and add them to the Kingdom.
3. Put tokens into a bag representing the expansions the user owns. There are 2 tokens for the Base Set and 1 token per sub-expansion the user owns. (So if the user owns all of Dark Ages, put three Dark Ages tokens in the bag).
4. Draw out X tokens randomly where X is the maximum number of expansions the user wants to use this game (usually 1, 2, or 3).
5. Until the Kingdom is full, round-robin between the tokens and randomly choose a card from the corresponding expansion. So if I have no required or promo cards in the Kingdom and I chose Seaside and Hinterlands tokens, I'd have 5 Seaside cards and 5 Hinterlands cards in the Kingdom.
I left out a few steps, such as not putting an expansion's tokens in the bag if the max # of expansions is 1 and you'd only have one token for that expansion. You usually don't want to play an all-Alchemy game, etc.
Here are some built-in features of this algorithm:
• It's less likely to create 'crazy' Kingdoms than full random from all cards.
• All cards appear with approximately equal likelyhood.
• You see the interactions between cards in the same expansion more often.
• Cards that work better in the context of their expansion will be duds less often (Scout, Contraband, etc.).
• It automatically abides by the 3-5 Alchemy cards suggestion without additional tweaking as long as the "maximum number of expansions" setting does not exceed 3.
• Your Colony games are more likely to have 3-5 Prosperity cards in them rather than 1 or 2, making Colonies easier to attain.
• It makes it very easy to say, "Give me a game with half (or all) cards from Expansion X." This should be handy for those who just bought a new pack of cards and want to try them out.
• It makes it very easy to say, "Don't give me any cards from Expansion X." This is nice for completionists that want to buy everything but don't always want to play Alchemy games.
I should explain those last two. The UI for my Kingdom generator looks like this:
If a player disallows an expansion, the expansion's tokens don't get put in the bag. If they require an expansion, it automatically chooses ONE token from that expansion before filling the bag (the other tokens from the expansion go into the bag).
One quirk of this generator is that it can generate Kingdoms of all one expansion when you specify, say, a maximum of two expansions. I don't consider it an issue, but I could easily see that some might have a problem with it.
It's my understanding that when playtesting in real life, this is more or less how Donald and company would play; take cards from 2 or 3 expansions rather than from all of them. So the idea has certainly been thoroughly tested. In my opinion, it's a good compromise.
If you own just the Base Set, this is basically a non-issue. The card pool is small enough that choosing a card that fits one criterion makes it significanly more likely that the other cards you choose will fit other criteria. You can't very well have a Kingdom with 10 splitters (villages) if there are only 3 splitters in your card pool (Village, Throne Room, Festival). Under these circumstances, I argue that a fancy randomizer is completely unnecessary. Sure, you'll get a Kingdom with no non-terminal Actions once in a great while, but they're rare enough to be a cool novelty rather than a big issue.
As the card pool grows, however, crazy Kingoms become more common when you use pure random. Adding a splitter no longer significantly reduces the chances of getting more splitters, etc. Now some might argue that this is as it should be. Players are likely to buy more expansions as they get more familiar with the game and crave more variety. As that happens, they may be more able to deal with 'crazier' Kingdoms. However, let's assume that this isn't the case. I'm sure there will be some players who love the Base Set so much that they'll buy the mega-pack and get everything all at once. So we'll take it as a given that it's still desirable to have fewer 'crazy' Kingdoms than full random provides.
So if the issue is that a larger card pool creates more crazy Kingdoms, here's my solution: reduce the size of the cardpool before choosing your Kingdom cards.
Doing this is simple. Just choose 2 or 3 expansions that you're going to use and then only choose cards from them. Specifically, here's how my homemade randomizer does it:
1. Add 'required' cards to the Kingdom (cards that the user has chosen to definitely be in the Kingdom).
2. Determine how many promo cards will be included in the Kingdom (using a hypergeometric distribution), choose that many promo cards randomly, and add them to the Kingdom.
3. Put tokens into a bag representing the expansions the user owns. There are 2 tokens for the Base Set and 1 token per sub-expansion the user owns. (So if the user owns all of Dark Ages, put three Dark Ages tokens in the bag).
4. Draw out X tokens randomly where X is the maximum number of expansions the user wants to use this game (usually 1, 2, or 3).
5. Until the Kingdom is full, round-robin between the tokens and randomly choose a card from the corresponding expansion. So if I have no required or promo cards in the Kingdom and I chose Seaside and Hinterlands tokens, I'd have 5 Seaside cards and 5 Hinterlands cards in the Kingdom.
I left out a few steps, such as not putting an expansion's tokens in the bag if the max # of expansions is 1 and you'd only have one token for that expansion. You usually don't want to play an all-Alchemy game, etc.
Here are some built-in features of this algorithm:
• It's less likely to create 'crazy' Kingdoms than full random from all cards.
• All cards appear with approximately equal likelyhood.
• You see the interactions between cards in the same expansion more often.
• Cards that work better in the context of their expansion will be duds less often (Scout, Contraband, etc.).
• It automatically abides by the 3-5 Alchemy cards suggestion without additional tweaking as long as the "maximum number of expansions" setting does not exceed 3.
• Your Colony games are more likely to have 3-5 Prosperity cards in them rather than 1 or 2, making Colonies easier to attain.
• It makes it very easy to say, "Give me a game with half (or all) cards from Expansion X." This should be handy for those who just bought a new pack of cards and want to try them out.
• It makes it very easy to say, "Don't give me any cards from Expansion X." This is nice for completionists that want to buy everything but don't always want to play Alchemy games.
I should explain those last two. The UI for my Kingdom generator looks like this:
If a player disallows an expansion, the expansion's tokens don't get put in the bag. If they require an expansion, it automatically chooses ONE token from that expansion before filling the bag (the other tokens from the expansion go into the bag).
One quirk of this generator is that it can generate Kingdoms of all one expansion when you specify, say, a maximum of two expansions. I don't consider it an issue, but I could easily see that some might have a problem with it.
It's my understanding that when playtesting in real life, this is more or less how Donald and company would play; take cards from 2 or 3 expansions rather than from all of them. So the idea has certainly been thoroughly tested. In my opinion, it's a good compromise.
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« on: January 13, 2013, 02:06:48 pm »
onigame, I want you to know how much I appreciate your apology. It was very good of you to take the time to address my concerns. Even this part:
That was me being petulant. Just the fact that you were a Dominion playtester and helped create the recommended sets of 10 in many of the expansions (which I also appreciate!) would put a lot of weight behind your opinions, and I was aware of that. It was kind of you to respond anyway.
I understand. From the beginning, I've also want Goko to succeed and for Goko Dominion to be friendly to casual players. At no time have I wanted Goko to be a faithful isotropic clone.
Let me dispel another assumption you may (or may not!) have about me. I'm not a pure-random zealot, to coin a phrase. I, too, have designed my own randomizer that I believe makes Kingdoms more fun. It's a Java Swing app and whenever I play in real life, it's what I use to create sets. Even when I played on isotropic, I rarely played pure random. I would bias my first game toward the base set, my second game toward Intrigue, and so on down the line. Seeing more of the interesting card interactions between cards within the same expansion is one of the things I consider fun.
My concerns are that your randomizer isn't effective at its stated goal (making games that are more friendly to casual players) and that it's going to have lots of negative side effects.
I can't speak for everybody, but for me, the long-lasting appeal of Dominion is its sheer variety. Even if you iron out the severe biases that your randomizer has, the fact that it always creates sets with 'a little bit of everything' removes a huge chunk of variety from the game. If all games felt so similar, I think I would have tired of Dominion really quickly. I'm guessing that with your randomizer many new players will have that very experience. If your goal is to keep them interested long enough to buy an expansion or two, then drop off to make space on the server for new players, maybe this is perfect. (I'm not claiming this is your motivation, but if somebody's sole concern were revenue, this might be attractive.)
Theory and Donald have already put forth many of the concerns I have, such as the fact that if I buy a new pack of cards, I want to see all of them a good portion of the time, or I don't feel I'm getting what I payed for. I'll try to avoid just repeating what they've said, but know that I agree wholeheartedly.
I think theory's point is that for many players, learning a new strategy or card interaction is fun. I don't like the KC/Goons/Masq pin either and I don't think it was a very good example. It's sort of a fluke.
But in your GetSatisfaction thread, you do advocate calling it a "Basic Game" and calling pure random a "Pro Game", which is just as misleading. There's nothing basic about your randomizer.
In fact, that's what's so wrong. Your randomizer is the very definition of inelegant. If I had to give someone an example of an inelegant software solution to a perceived problem, I'd just point them to dominionsetgenerator.com. When I said that I liked playing with niche cards and your randomizer discouraged them, your solution was to add a 'niche card' weighting. When I read that, I shook my head in disbelief. You're missing the entire point! The point is that, for many cards, what categories it fits under isn't cut and dried. 'Niche' is the perfect example of that. Which cards are niche is not pinned down, and it changes both as more cards are released and as people become more familiar with using the cards in different situations (which they won't be able to if they're using your generator)!
To put it plainly, the set of categories available is arbitrary, the cards that fit into each category are arbitrary, and how much each category is weighted is arbitrary. The default settings are all dependent on what role you feel each card fits and which roles are important to you! You will never fix this randomizer! It is fundamentally flawed.
All that said, it's easy to criticize without suggesting any solutions. In a later post today, I will put forth my own ideas about how to address these issues in Goko.
QuoteWhy are your opinions so much more important than mine?
I feel I have to address this even though you may not enjoy the answer. My opinions are "more important" than yours because Goko has a lot more of my money than they have of yours (as far as I can tell; I don't actually know for sure that you also aren't one of the investors). I invested in the company rather early, when it was more hope than actual implementation, and a lot of the work I'm putting in is motivated by making that investment be profitable.
That was me being petulant. Just the fact that you were a Dominion playtester and helped create the recommended sets of 10 in many of the expansions (which I also appreciate!) would put a lot of weight behind your opinions, and I was aware of that. It was kind of you to respond anyway.
Quote
I know that the company can't succeed without having customer loyalty, but also that it can't succeed without a wider, casual, audience.
We all have invisible biases towards our own experiences. I enjoyed isotropic when it first came out, but soon got tired of it, because I felt I was just playing too many games where the kingdom was a one-strategy kingdom and that to do well I had to invest a lot of time to sense and execute tiny improvements in strategy and that having a good time seemed to be more about winning games rather than actually having fun with different game mechanics (which is the whole reason I enjoy playing Dominion). I don't feel that a completely faithful clone of isotropic would ever be monetarily successful.
It's very hard treading the line between getting new users and satisfying old users. In this case a confluence of events, some of which I was responsible for, tipped the ship too far in one direction. I'm doing my best to course-correct.
It's never been about getting *my* code into Goko. It's been about doing what I feel is important to make a niche game appeal to a wider audience.
I understand. From the beginning, I've also want Goko to succeed and for Goko Dominion to be friendly to casual players. At no time have I wanted Goko to be a faithful isotropic clone.
Let me dispel another assumption you may (or may not!) have about me. I'm not a pure-random zealot, to coin a phrase. I, too, have designed my own randomizer that I believe makes Kingdoms more fun. It's a Java Swing app and whenever I play in real life, it's what I use to create sets. Even when I played on isotropic, I rarely played pure random. I would bias my first game toward the base set, my second game toward Intrigue, and so on down the line. Seeing more of the interesting card interactions between cards within the same expansion is one of the things I consider fun.
My concerns are that your randomizer isn't effective at its stated goal (making games that are more friendly to casual players) and that it's going to have lots of negative side effects.
I can't speak for everybody, but for me, the long-lasting appeal of Dominion is its sheer variety. Even if you iron out the severe biases that your randomizer has, the fact that it always creates sets with 'a little bit of everything' removes a huge chunk of variety from the game. If all games felt so similar, I think I would have tired of Dominion really quickly. I'm guessing that with your randomizer many new players will have that very experience. If your goal is to keep them interested long enough to buy an expansion or two, then drop off to make space on the server for new players, maybe this is perfect. (I'm not claiming this is your motivation, but if somebody's sole concern were revenue, this might be attractive.)
Theory and Donald have already put forth many of the concerns I have, such as the fact that if I buy a new pack of cards, I want to see all of them a good portion of the time, or I don't feel I'm getting what I payed for. I'll try to avoid just repeating what they've said, but know that I agree wholeheartedly.
Quote2. The point of random sets is to learn something. If every set you throw in cards that you "know" work together, you never get that feeling of discovering something new. Maybe you believe that you've exhausted everything new, but suppose your rubric had been in place pre-KC/Goons/Masq: according to this set generator, maybe you would have never seen it. You would think KC is too swingy. Goons is too high variance or dominating. So you never discover interesting combos because you've already limited yourself.
I can learn better stuff by taking classes at a community college. The point of playing games is to have fun; learning something is secondary and in many cases not actually a necessary component of having fun. (Learning about KC/Goons/Masq has increased my enjoyment of Dominion in the same way that learning about wedgies has increased my enjoyment of high school gym class.)
Yes, it's true that playing with more restricted sets limits what you can get out of a game. But as long as you're having fun, does it matter? Once you stop having fun, you remove some of the limits and there are now new things to discover. Let players go to the next level when they feel they're ready.
I think theory's point is that for many players, learning a new strategy or card interaction is fun. I don't like the KC/Goons/Masq pin either and I don't think it was a very good example. It's sort of a fluke.
Quote
Quote3. I don't think it's a cognitive bias to suggest that a player's default expectation is going to be a randomly chosen set of 10. It's really misleading that when you choose "random set", you almost will never get Throne Room or King's Court, and almost always get Bandit Camp and Border Village.
Yes, that would be very misleading. Which is why I do NOT want to call it "random set".
But in your GetSatisfaction thread, you do advocate calling it a "Basic Game" and calling pure random a "Pro Game", which is just as misleading. There's nothing basic about your randomizer.
In fact, that's what's so wrong. Your randomizer is the very definition of inelegant. If I had to give someone an example of an inelegant software solution to a perceived problem, I'd just point them to dominionsetgenerator.com. When I said that I liked playing with niche cards and your randomizer discouraged them, your solution was to add a 'niche card' weighting. When I read that, I shook my head in disbelief. You're missing the entire point! The point is that, for many cards, what categories it fits under isn't cut and dried. 'Niche' is the perfect example of that. Which cards are niche is not pinned down, and it changes both as more cards are released and as people become more familiar with using the cards in different situations (which they won't be able to if they're using your generator)!
To put it plainly, the set of categories available is arbitrary, the cards that fit into each category are arbitrary, and how much each category is weighted is arbitrary. The default settings are all dependent on what role you feel each card fits and which roles are important to you! You will never fix this randomizer! It is fundamentally flawed.
All that said, it's easy to criticize without suggesting any solutions. In a later post today, I will put forth my own ideas about how to address these issues in Goko.
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Goko Dominion Online / Re: Why did Banker Bot buy a Curse?
« on: January 12, 2013, 11:30:16 am »My hunch is that the bots are coded to buy Curse while Hoard is in play, but maybe I'm just being cynical.
I think it's more likely that it bought the Curse because Horn of Plenty was available. It probably does that for any card that's tagged as needing variety, and doesn't realize that Horn of Plenty only cares about Actions and Treasures.