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Messages - Imrahil3

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51
(This matters for the interaction with Elder -- arguably it shouldn't, given the text of elder just says "choose one" after the "e.g.", but in practice you can't Elder a Weaver on shuffleit)

Elder has been repeatedly and consistently ruled by DXV to refer to only cards that use “Choose.” The “e.g.” refers to the fact that some cards say “Choose two” or “Choose one per X.”

So to answer your question, Weaver is not a “choose one” card because Donald didn’t want it to be one.

52
Dominion General Discussion / Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« on: June 30, 2022, 04:14:39 pm »
Kinda wish the rules for Durations simply stated they didn’t do their next-turn effects if not in play; that seems a lot cleaner than saying “non-Duration” on every card that could possibly play another card, and it allows a bit more flexibility, too.
I Procession an Archive. What now happens to the 4 cards still set aside at the end of the turn?

Theoretical FAQ: If a Duration card sets aside cards and is removed from play before finishing that card’s instructions, discard the set-aside cards.

That should cover most if not all edge cases, and it’s rare that one would intentionally Procession such a card anyways.

Edit: I think the only other edge case is Garrison, which puts tokens. So simply adding tokens to the above definition cleans everything up.

As an aside, this is 14 Duration cards with a weird ruling vs 25+ Durations arbitrarily shut out from cards otherwise.

disagree.  A lot of times u want to procession cards even absent a 6 card available for gain.  especially when no + actions/draw doing a procession often is strong enough to buy back the card u processed and then some.

What do $5 cards have to do with anything? I’m talking about Durations, which often revolve around getting a benefit next turn. Here are some highlights of Durations under my schema:

Processioned Haven: +2 Cards, +2 Actions, set aside two cards and then discard them.
Processioned Research: +2 Actions, Trash two cards from your hand. Per $1 the trashed cards cost, discard the top card of your deck.
Processioned Tactician: If you have at least one card in your hand, discard your hand twice.
Processioned Mastermind:
Processioned Swamp Hag:
Processioned Pirate:

Most cards end up just being +2 Cards, +2 Actions, or otherwise doing nothing. A few like Wharf give you both turns of benefit up front in exchange for burning the card now.

It’s not nothing, but rarely the optimal play.

53
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 2
« on: June 30, 2022, 10:09:33 am »
Not only that, but it also introduces the problem of card A being strictly inferior to card B.

I think it’s worth an exception to that rule when following it means an entire class of card won’t work. Merchant Ship is too expensive, and any similar card made that tries to be better will be too expensive as well if it tries to respect the existence of Merchant Ship.

The game is certainly far better off for having that rule than not having it, but people would buy Wharf 2 in 100% of the games Wharf 1 doesn’t show up in and would usually buy it once the Wharf 1’s had run out anyways.

54
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: June 28, 2022, 04:57:43 pm »
2nd editions seem to be a pretty tumultuous event, with all of us opining on which changes we think are good or bad, mourning the loss of our favorite weak, complicated, or unfun cards, and generally complaining about things we don’t like. Some of these changes - like the change to Bonfire - can require change for reasons that aren’t immediately noticeable to most of us. I, personally, was pretty disappointed at the change to Bonfire, said as much in the preview thread, and never stopped to consider that maybe the designer of the game had good reasons for changing it the way he did.

On that note, is there a way that we can get answers to our burning questions in a way that’s more helpful/less hostile? Would it be nice to have a mega thread devoted specifically to 2E questions where we ask “Why did Bonfire change this way?” Should we just be more polite and give you the benefit of the doubt as we ask? Stop clamoring and just wait for the secret history?

Or do you not even enjoy discussing the minutiae of every errata and want us to just let it be?

Thanks for all your hard work in making the game the best it can be. I’m sorry if any of my comments have been annoying to read or sound ungrateful.

55
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 2
« on: June 28, 2022, 02:56:13 pm »
How nuts is Souk-WotChameleon gonna be? It aside, Souk seems fine, maybe not the best buy when you're drawing your deck, but +7 coins... Man, this feels like a card that you just build your deck around.

Does Way of the Chameleon also apply to negative cards and coins? Or just the positives?

It doesn't as stated in the Wiki

And to be clear in the general sense, there's no rule at all that defines what "-2 cards" would even look like. A lot of people think of it as the same as "discard 2 cards", but that's just one choice of interpretation.

To add to this,

Way of the Chameleon says that any time you’d get +Cards or +$, you get the other. “-“ never once enters the conversation (it says nothing about what happens when you just have $, or -$)so it’s reasonable to assume that you would get -$ as normal. It’s also reasonable to assume you would discard, but you have to extrapolate further to get there, and with Dominion the most literal reading is usually right.

56
Dominion General Discussion / Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« on: June 28, 2022, 10:36:13 am »
Good call - it’s probably most important to follow errata where it presents a jarring shift in what a card does rather than the “everything is the same except one edge case is slightly different” situations.

57
Dominion General Discussion / Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« on: June 28, 2022, 09:37:49 am »
I have a random, maybe silly question, but was still curious on any thoughts from the community. How are folks thinking of incorporating these errata into the physical games? Should we continue to play the cards as printed, or ignore the printed text and imagine they have the new text, or get crafty and print stickers with the new text to place on existing cards? I am trying to get ideas on if/how I can update my physical copies, or if I should just not worry about it.

Donald’s general take is that we can play however we want IRL. Personally, I think it’s best to use general errata (ie Coffers can be spent at any time during Buy phase) and ignore card-specific errata (changes to Bonfire). Easier to remember what’s written on the card in front of you than what’s written on the forums, or Reddit, or wait where did I see that errata again?

But, if your group plays online a lot as well, I’d go with all official errata.

58
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 2
« on: June 28, 2022, 09:30:58 am »
Farmland. Please Farmland.

Wait, with the errata to on-gain, Farmland can be cool now. Don’t kill Farmland.

EDIT: WAIT - with Witch’s Hut, the set has a Curser, so Ill-Gotten Gains is going, I bet.

59
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 1
« on: June 27, 2022, 11:26:18 am »
Liking the new cards. Always bummed to see cards go for a reason other than being terrible - I never had problems with Oracle resolving slowly - but it’s not like iconic cards have left the set. So far this is my favorite 2022 update as far as removed cards goes.

60
Dominion General Discussion / Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« on: June 25, 2022, 09:17:16 pm »
Bonfire is a bit disappointing. It's not going to matter 90-93% of the time, but it was fun with on-trash effects.

And with Cursed Gold, Ruins, trashers you no longer need. Very disappointing to lose all these interesting uses, when the confusing rules cases could have been handled so easily with lesser errata.
Or just “non-Duration” like everything else.

61
Dominion General Discussion / Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« on: June 25, 2022, 12:29:51 pm »
Kinda wish the rules for Durations simply stated they didn’t do their next-turn effects if not in play; that seems a lot cleaner than saying “non-Duration” on every card that could possibly play another card, and it allows a bit more flexibility, too.
I Procession an Archive. What now happens to the 4 cards still set aside at the end of the turn?

Theoretical FAQ: If a Duration card sets aside cards and is removed from play before finishing that card’s instructions, discard the set-aside cards.

That should cover most if not all edge cases, and it’s rare that one would intentionally Procession such a card anyways.

Edit: I think the only other edge case is Garrison, which puts tokens. So simply adding tokens to the above definition cleans everything up.

As an aside, this is 14 Duration cards with a weird ruling vs 25+ Durations arbitrarily shut out from cards otherwise.

62
Dominion General Discussion / Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« on: June 25, 2022, 10:44:24 am »
Kinda wish the rules for Durations simply stated they didn’t do their next-turn effects if not in play; that seems a lot cleaner than saying “non-Duration” on every card that could possibly play another card, and it allows a bit more flexibility, too.

63
All I mean is that the card will be hated regardless of whether or not it’s powerful. Mountebank was powerful and was hated. Swindler is weak but is still hated.

Honkeyfresh was simply expressing his opinion that Barbarian will be as hated as Mountebank was, you took it to mean he considered Barbarian to have a similar effect to Mountebank, and I was just trying to clarify the conversation.

I literally gave an example that agreed with your sentiment - that getting hit with two Ruins is worse for your deck than Barbarian downgrading a card.

64
No idea about what „toxic“ is supposed to mean in this context. Barbarian certainly is not an overpowered Attack like Cultist, Torturer or Mountebank. It is just a stronger Swindler.
Mountebank is only scary if you aren’t a Copper strategist.
/s

I used “toxic” to mean “feels worse than it is,” which is every attack card you just mentioned which hurt your soul disproportionately more than they hurt your deck. Losing a Province into a Duchy is more demoralizing to watch than just getting handed two Ruins even if it doesn’t hurt your deck as badly.

#mountebankdidnothingwrong

65
Mountebank junks you with 0 or 2. Barbarian only downgrades. So the comparison is pretty weird.

Going for Shepherd in the presence of Barbarian is something you should think twice about. Does not mean that the latter is overpowered though.

Agree overall, but I think he meant Barbarian is the new toxic attack card in Mountebank’s place.

66
Did you really just respond 18 times?

You had me all excited, I thought new information had been posted.

67
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« on: June 13, 2022, 07:28:10 pm »
Can we just errata Collection to be excluded and replaced with another 5 cost pile anytime the word "Horse" is mentioned anywhere else on the board and be done with this nonsense forever?

(this includes Horse Traders or the like.. no I don't care :P )

Absolutely not.

68
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« on: June 13, 2022, 05:52:54 pm »
So I feel like Stampede is probably the worst offender here, since you can’t Collect Horse Spam while also out-engining your opponent. Any Way of the Horse board with a couple of $2 Actions like Pearl Diver allows you to essentially stampede but can scale to how many Buys you have.

69
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« on: June 11, 2022, 04:13:48 pm »
But in general I prefer some craziness to awful clauses like "$3 or more", which seemed fine at the time but in retrospect is awful especially on Band of Nomads.

Totally agree.

I respect not wanting unending combos. I didn't at all mean to say I think Collections + Stampede is good for the game.

I don’t like limiting clauses on cards that only exist to stop hyper-optimized players from going too far with it but make life worse for the rest of us who are just having fun.

70
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« on: June 11, 2022, 08:57:58 am »
Guys, just let the game have wild combos.

There are plenty of cards in the game that warp it so much your usual strategies go out the window.  Both players have equal access to the Collections and the Horses. If both show up at the same time, guess what? You get to contest a pile of good cards, just like every other game of Dominion.

If you’re playing for fun, there are exactly 0 people forcing you to use this combo. Replace Collections or replace the Horse gainer. If you’re playing ranked, the whole point of that game mode is to test your skills against other players in a variety of circumstances and see who is better able to adapt to unusual strategies.

No more errata. No more replacements or rules changes. Let the game be. If there’s a combo you don’t like, don’t put it on the board.

71
Well, it is similar in power level to Caravan Guard. Caravan Guard is better as you draw now, Supplies is better as it is no Duration. Unless there are interactions like Mastermind, such delayed Peddlers are not powerhouses though.
Lighthouse is also often enough superior to Silver yet totally fine at $2. Lots of $5 Actions are situationally superior to Gold yet totally fine at $5.

i think there is an inversion point where supplies is fully better than CG - whenever you get enough that the next-turn-horses will draw deck, since that means you can do the trick all over again next turn. Still, this means trashing out chaff, coping with greening, etc. it's good but not broken good.
Well, I think it is on average slightly better than Caravan Guard. Delaying draw is not that bad (and arguably even better than drawing immediately) whereas missing shuffles matters far more.

But vanilla-wise it is still just a delayed Peddler which is why I don't get the opening post.

um it gives two cards the next turn not one.  Immensely better.

Horses only give you one card. They only increase your hand size by one. They technically draw two, but if you didn’t have the horse you wouldn’t have had it in hand to begin with, so you’d just have four cards plus the first card you would’ve drawn with horse.

Supplies is basically an Action - Duration that gives +1 Action, +$1 now and +1 Card next turn.

72
As Donald X. has said elsewhere, the publisher makes these sorts of announcements. But for second editions in particular there aren't likely to be announcements until quite late. You see the second editions couldn't be made until the stock of the first editions sold out. And if people knew about the second edition happening, that might slow or prevent that stock from running out.

To answer your question as best I can, there's been no news of second editions coming out soon beyond Seaside and Prosperity.

if this is true absent some warning about the impending release/price reduction on the current stockpile of notably inferior cards (as per Donald X basically) this is kinda shady IMO.

I mean they are essentially printing $ with the new releases as many hard core dominionites will buy the 2nd edition too.  You might as well fire-sale the old versions not dupe people into buying up the old inferior and soon to be outdated inventory.

I don’t think it’s some huge travesty to accidentally get 1E cards. They were fine enough cards when we all bought them even if we later discovered they were bad.

Donald is already going out of his way to save us money by making these second editions instead of new expansions - which I’m not sure I track with because the only people who care one way or another are those who will have to buy update packs anyways but hey, I’m not complaining.

73
I’ve spent a lot of time trying to clinically classify each Dominion card and there’s a ton of nuance to the word “trash” that can basically only be resolved by deciding beforehand what you want it to mean. Whatever a trasher is, Chapel definitely has to be one, right? But Bandit trashes cards, but you can’t use it on yourself. Remodel trashes cards but you still end up with the same number of cards in your deck. Trader trashes cards but you end up with more cards than before you played it! Which of these is a “trasher” and which is not?

I generally use the terms “thinner” to refer to cards that reduce your deck size and “remodeler” to refer to cards that trash cards but don’t reduce deck size. I save the word “trasher” for trashing attacks like Knights. When I’m being extra-detailed I add “trash-for-benefit” which, for the sake of usefulness, excludes remodelers, and this refers to cards like Moneylender - even though Chapel trashing four coppers out of your deck is technically a benefit.

I’d either call Rats a remodeler or a trash-for-benefit, as it just isn’t helpful enough to call it a “trasher.”

Feel free to disagree, but if anyone has a different classification I’d like to see how you navigated having four different types of cards go by the same moniker.

74
I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.
I agree that the set is very solid but there are two outliers: Rebuild and Cultist are ridiculously overpowered.

Urchin is also OP - a very stupid and unfun card, if you ask me. And does anyone actually like the Knights?

knights are great!

re: cornucopia i think tournament could use a nerfing

Re: Knights, I think this discussion is devolving into a kind of self-parody in which practically every card is deemed obviously problematic and worthy of removal.

Yeah. If we accumulated all of the logic and reasoning in all these posts as to why any given card is bad for the game and applied it equally across every expansion, I think we’d be left with Workshop and possibly Market. No way that cards like Chapel or Recruiter survive the purge.

75
There are a lot of cards that interact with Ruins in interesting ways. Most of them serve simply to nerf Looter cards (Way of the Pig, Way of the Horse, Swap), but they’re also way more interesting than Curses with cards that care about what type a card is (Courtier, Transmute).

I agree that Dark Ages in general doesn’t need a 2E.

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